Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: CaptanSpudsy on March 25, 2012, 12:11:21 PM
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So what leveling/persistance system do you want in Starfarer? I can think of 3 options that would work well with it:
Standard XP- Just the sterotypical level system in place with most RPGs, you level and get a boost to all of your stats.
Buying Upgrades- Dark Souls style, you spend money to increase your perks and such.
XP and Buying Upgrades- A mix between the two, so you'd have to reach a certain level and than buy what upgrades you'd want.
What's everyone's opions on these systems? Also, what other systems could work well with Starfarer?
Spudsy
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I think it would be a good idea to buy new abilities/upgrades/stat boosts with 'upgrade points' you obtain every level (1, or more at higher levels).
That is, if there even SHOULD be a leveling system. You could also make it so that using certain things increases your effectiveness with them. Say, shooting guns for a while is likely to make you better at aiming.
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So, a bit like how Skyrim does its upgrade system.
I can see a problem with that in the fact that you're not actually firing your weapons, your crew is.
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So, a bit like how Skyrim does its upgrade system.
I can see a problem with that in the fact that you're not actually firing your weapons, your crew is.
Well, technically, you are firing your weapons, It's just your crew who aims them :D
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a mix that is distinctly independent from one another. so what does that mean one might ask. well.
you gain XP just like most RPG games do. and you level up with that xp bettering your character with the stats that your character can impose on your fleet. such as more fleet points (becoming better at managing captains) or an increase in starting deployment points when you enter a map (formation strategy?) stuff like that, that is not dictated by ships (cargo space fuel space speed etc.)
that brings me to the next part the buying upgrades part.. which could be much more varied. things like officer survivability (installing captain escape shuttles on ships) or possibly expanded hanger space. (installed on carriers) things that are more physical but not overlapping with the hull mods to keep them significant and meaningful
so the basic over view for me would be
your character gains XP and improves in a non physical object way as in developing his mental skills and abilities as a captain.
you purchase fleet upgrades. the physical upgrades that you make fleet wide. possibly ship/play style dependent... as my example expanded hangar space for carrier type ships only.
at least that is my take on what i think could be really engaging for a leveling system.
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Dark souls style, so then you can be a certain kind of "class". :)
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In a game like Starfarer, I don't think XP makes any kind of sense. The game takes away so much control from you in combat, so it seems natural to me that it would give you the utmost degree of control OUT of combat, namely the ability to build your character the way you want and to customize your ship down to the single point of OP.
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Dark souls style, so then you can be a certain kind of "class". :)
No, please anything but a class system...
it really hurts to be "stuck" in a class system
i would suggest officers, they have certain skills (bonuses) and level up as they gain Exp
you can only have X amount of officers (increasing as you progress through the game and can buy and sell them at stations)
if you want to change them, just sell them and buy new ones but! the new officers start fresh
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Dark Souls doesn't actually have much of a class system. You choose a class at the start, but all it really does is determine what your starting stats and equipment are. After that, everything is a point-buy, which is how I think it should be done.
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Being able to buy and sell your way out of a class system would be fine I think. Selling your freighters for fast frigates and turning from trader to pirate, say.
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On the one hand I like deep tree point buys, where you can mix and match from different categories but there are prerequisites for the really good stuff. On the other hand I'm kind of sick of single player games where I have to start over to experiment with a different playstyle.
How about whatever the system is, we have the option to wipe our choices at some large cost? Or maybe just export the character to a new game with a brand new frigate and no cash, but still with the same level/experience/points as before (wiped clean that is)?
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How about whatever the system is, we have the option to wipe our choices at some large cost? Or maybe just export the character to a new game with a brand new frigate and no cash, but still with the same level/experience/points as before (wiped clean that is)?
Like a new game+ style? That would be entertaining if they made the game more difficult (again, Dark Souls style).
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Think EQs/WOWs weapons skills, Kinda like that maybe? But each captain has their own set thats starts off anywhere between say 25% to 65% (but all the stats start off at different levels say one has navigation at 37% and gunnery at 54% when you first get them) and as you use those skills they level up say if you manually destroy a very very fast ship with a slow weapon, would give bonus to that skills level progression than destroying the same ship with a fast firing weapon, for those rare times you can actually do it.
or even have different weapon types use different skill types and have those all total into your overall gunnery skill? Which means you can spec into say engery weapons and not missiles or ballistic and still do well even with a lower overall gunnery skill? And say at certain points in that skills progression (if you placed a cap on it per level, like 100 for lvl 1, 125 for lvl2 so you dont get to like skill 400 at level 4 or something, to keep it balanced) you unlock a certain amount of perks which each level gives you a number of perk points (more per level past a certain point since gaining very high levels would take longer, there should be a better reward for getting to them then say lvls 1-10) and you could pick a perk from that tree (maybe only one or two perks per skill level tree so you cant just get all of them at maximum level, you have to do trade offs)/
It would foster more of an attachment to the players own captain along with the ones you hire, keep alive and level.
(Quickly throw together sample, if more people like it, ill try throwing together a MSPaint version of it with more detail {'s mean the total skill level required for said perk. Also maybe allow us to see perks within 50-60 points of our current skill level, so we might be able to plan which perks we want to get later?)
Gunnery 64/100 Perks [+10% to fire rate{25}, +5% laser/kinetic/fragmentation/HE damage(drop down list of damage types to pick from?){50}]
Navigation 46/100 [-15% FTL fuel consumption{35}]
Shield operation 52/100 [-5% damage to shields{25}, +10% shield deployment speed{50}]
Armour Fitting 45/100 [+5% Armor damage absorption {40}]
Salvage 37/100 [+5% better chance of saving a disabled ship from being scrapped {35}]
Engine Tuning 35/100 [+3% faster combat and/or travel speed{35} (maybe another drop down menu to pick from?)]
Hows that?
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Have you guys ever played Shattered Galaxy? Clout, Education, Tactics, and Mechanical Aptitude; I believe these attribute categories translate very well over to Starfarer.
Here's a rough breakdown:
Clout - Level of political influence that allows you to have access to a wider range of units to purchase.
Education - This determines what weapons you are able to understand and utilize on the battlefield.
Tactics - Influences max deployed squad size as well as max reserves size.
Mechanical Aptitude - Increase the amount/size of equipment you can equip a unit with.
With minor tweaking, I believe that this fits very well into a core set of attributes. I'm pretty sure we can have a secondary list of attributes as well, but this is a great starting point.
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I played SG back in the day, and I agree that some of those stats carry very well. I do think they'd need to be expanded though, since personal skill and reflexes WOULD play into a small ship captain's resume.
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I'd be very happy with a skill tree system. (EvE Online style)
Multiple trees starting with a basic skill (stuff like gunnery, navigation, engineering, mechanic...)
Each branch give you a bonus per level and you need more xp to buy the higher levels.
Maxing (or nearly) unlock another branch(es) in the same tree until you reach the top of the tree.
It give a smooth gain of power, allow specialization if you want and let you choose what you want to be good at.
For xp gain, the usual rpg system, killing X give you Y xp, same for doing missions or buying/selling stuff.
I don't really like the "gain a level, here have +5% to all damage" I like to have the option to select what I want to upgrade.
Having higher skill level allow you to use better weapon, but it can be annoying to not be able to use that weapon you really like, so maybe just a +X% per skill level or access to upgraded version of said weapon.
(added a picture for visualization)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I'd be very happy with a skill tree system. (EvE Online style)
Star Wolves 3 had a similar skill tree...I think that sort of thing works rather well. (That game *did* have classes, mind you, but most of the skills were shared between them--it was cheaper to get gunnery-related skills if you'd got the gunner class, though).
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I'd be very happy with a skill tree system. (EvE Online style)
Multiple trees starting with a basic skill (stuff like gunnery, navigation, engineering, mechanic...)
Each branch give you a bonus per level and you need more xp to buy the higher levels.
Maxing (or nearly) unlock another branch(es) in the same tree until you reach the top of the tree.
It give a smooth gain of power, allow specialization if you want and let you choose what you want to be good at.
For xp gain, the usual rpg system, killing X give you Y xp, same for doing missions or buying/selling stuff.
I don't really like the "gain a level, here have +5% to all damage" I like to have the option to select what I want to upgrade.
Having higher skill level allow you to use better weapon, but it can be annoying to not be able to use that weapon you really like, so maybe just a +X% per skill level or access to upgraded version of said weapon.
(added a picture for visualization)
I'd love to see this type of system, just make sure it doesn't take 3 months to train 1 skill 1 level :D
Also, I'd love to see weapons being "locked" if you don't have the correct skill, or better yet, they are usable, but so horribly inaccurate/flux inefficient, you would be way better off not using them till you have the necessary skill..
But I don't think thats going to happened..
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I said standard XP, but I could see having a combo if what you buy is say, implants that boost skills or something...
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Have you guys ever played Shattered Galaxy? Clout, Education, Tactics, and Mechanical Aptitude; I believe these attribute categories translate very well over to Starfarer.
Here's a rough breakdown:
Clout - Level of political influence that allows you to have access to a wider range of units to purchase.
Education - This determines what weapons you are able to understand and utilize on the battlefield.
Tactics - Influences max deployed squad size as well as max reserves size.
Mechanical Aptitude - Increase the amount/size of equipment you can equip a unit with.
With minor tweaking, I believe that this fits very well into a core set of attributes. I'm pretty sure we can have a secondary list of attributes as well, but this is a great starting point.
I like this a lot! Makes a character seem more like a person rather than a random collection of numbers...
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Personally I don't like the thought of a standard xp system at all. It just seems too, overused. Instead, when you start the game you pick a "specialty" for your Captain from a large list. Are they a small ship tactical expert who can give more types of orders to more precisely control small craft, and generally boost the abilities of small craft hes personally captaining? Are they a charismatic Captain who can squeeze in an extra officer or two and/or boost the abilities of his officers?
And then as TIME goes on, periodically "training" slots open up for your Captain, where they can train up some other secondary skillsets, or improve his existing ones. Maybe they takes a crash course in subspace engine systems, to provide a small boost to combat and system speed, not as much as an engineering officer dedicated to that, they ARE the Captain, they can't spend all their time inside engineering after all. Or maybe they take some time to improve his existing charisma and leadership skills, and can fit even more officers and/or give them a bigger boost, etc.
Your Captain wouldn't level up directly from combat. Combat adds to their experience, of course. But every second of someones life adds to their experience. Dealing with their crew, their officers, managing their fleets and objectives, combat, dealing with ship problems, everything adds and builds an individual. Just getting XP's from combat seems so... boring? It may be all well and good for common crew members, and maybe even officers, but for the players own persona, I think they should get something a little more special.
So to sum up my suggestion. Over time (actual game time) your Captains betters themselves, trains themselves, pursues new skillsets, etc. Now, getting a "level", say, every couple of months like clockwork would be weird and all, so I'd suggest once you hit the minimum amount of time to get a new training slot/point/whatever you have a percentage chance to get a new "slot" every day till you get one, a chance that slowly rises with time until you're guaranteed to get a slot, then it resets back to 0 and starts counting again. Now the problem could arise that someone just sits around and does nothing/ leaves their computer on and goes off to get free "levels", and we can't have that. So I'd suggest having a system in place where the level timer stops moving forward at certain points ( ever 5 or 10%, or 25% ,or something) until the player does SOMETHING. A battle, a random event, a mission, something that requires player input and reasonably adds to a captains "experience", unlocks the timer and allows it to continue.
This way, your Captain develops and grows over time, naturally, into a unique, individual Captain. This system could easily be made more intricate and complicated, or streamlined and simple, and shouldn't be TOO difficult to implement, I think. Well, this is my two cents, peace.
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Also, I'd love to see weapons being "locked" if you don't have the correct skill, or better yet, they are usable, but so horribly inaccurate/flux inefficient, you would be way better off not using them till you have the necessary skill..
I don't think that would be the best idea, after all, the only limiting factor for weapon attachments should be money. I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to grind five levels to be able to attach a tac lance to my Apogee if I already have the money.
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Along a normal skill system I'd love some kind of perk system a la Fallout to specialize your character, adding replayability to the campaign. There's just something about perks that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Increasing a skill with numeral X, sure that's kind of rewarding. Getting a cool sounding perk that defines the character and makes him different, YES PLEASE. Also, make it impossible or VERY, VERY hard to be master of all, or the replayability suffers a lot (IMO.)
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i think that starfarer could use an advancement system like mount and blade but... in space! ;D
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Both, you should have XP for your captain/Admiral(The player character) and buying power for your ships. hopefully different things are effected with a tiny bit of overlap between the two.
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Both! Because they both work so well.
Wouldn't mind having chances at obtaining perks through certain actions like you do in say, Total War games.
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Having something like mount and blade (in that you have a set of skills that can only effect YOU, and a set of skills that effect your FLEET) would certainly work somewhat well - I can see arguments for both the SG and Eve approach too.
Overall, with what has been mentioned about officers and such, I really think that a m&b esque system is probably what we will end up seeing - Personal skills affecting the flagship, and any ships under that in your fleets hierarchy, with other officers lending personal bonuses to their ships (or in the case of an admiral, giving their admiralty bonuses down their chain of command too). I think we could also see some sort of mechanic where the larger a ship/fleet is, the less effect the skills have - You might expect the captain of a hyperion (crew=5) to effect the weapons in the same way the captain of an Onslaught (crew..more than 5) would effect the weapons
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I'd be very happy with a skill tree system. (EvE Online style)
Multiple trees
We could try something different. Oh god we need spoilers. Like a circle.
(http://i362.photobucket.com/albums/oo65/Swadius/example.png)
Each skill influences the surrounding skills in both with the upgrade path as well as conferring some sort of bonus related to the skill being boosted. And perhaps instead of putting points into a skill and instantly bumping up a 10% increase, maybe skills like these are gained gradually. Kinda like filling each of these spaces up with water to to speak.
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i don't know if anyone has ever played it, but i'd really enjoy a leveling system that would be similar to jagged alliance 2. where you gain experience in agility, dexterity, strength, leadership, wisdom, marksmanship, explosive, mechanical, medical and level.
the way it worked in this game is that all stats where leveled individually based on how often you would use them, and then based on them, you would receive an overall level. all these skills could be used in some of the quests found in starfarer as well as little bonuses for your flag ship.
agility
could be used to give your flagship a bonus based on a value / ship size.
dexterity
this could give your guns a rotation bonus of a value / hard point size.
strength
this could be used to board ships perhaps?
leadership
a bonus to command points in combat and a reduction to your mutiny lvl when overburdened.
wisdom
this could give you a chance to see the initial deployment of enemy ships when starting a fight, and get additional info on fleets in space before engaging
marksmanship
this would reduce spread of rapid fire weapons or increase accuracy of weapons on autofire.
explosive
this would give a bonus to boarding and mining.
mechanical
you would repair parts faster in and out of combat.
medical
you and the crew of your flagship would naturally heal faster.
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It's probably easier and less tacky to make up stats than outright copying them and fudging them into another genre of game.
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Flare i love your idea, its brilliant.
The each one effecting surrounding ones could be expanded, if your circle is lopsided for example if you focus all on leadership and nothing other skills you get a penalty to everything else but a bonus to leadership to further enforce what you are focusing on, a balanced circle with every skill being even would be neutral a guy focusing on leadership would get even higher leadership modifers but a penalty to other stuff.
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I see where you're going, something like this right?
http://ellantoby.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/izayastats.png
Maybe these upgrade paths don't have to be permanent, like you could always retrain your character to fit another sort of job. There'd be time and resources associated with retraining someone of course, like the future refit screens.
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i'm sorry, i didin't mean he should copy another game... ill restate then. id like individually trainable skills where you gain experience through use, not just the simple lvl up gain stats from other rpg like games. something where you get really good at what your play style entails. for example you give lots of detailed commands, your leadership will get high allowing more precise commands to be given, or if you always fly a frigate then you will naturally have better maneuvering due to the experience youve gained piloting small vessels. the reason i mentioned jagged alliance 2 is that i haven't seen this system emplyed anywere else :'(
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Hm... just adding in my two catnips here...
The way I see things, it seems to me there should be two types of experience gaining going on here.
The main experience gain from the player/captain/commander to be used for general type of skills, i.e. bartering and trading skills, faster repairs out of battle, faster movement, higher efficency in making munitions from supplies (making more with what you got); general types of skills that can be used regardless of ship types.
The secondary type of experience going into ship types, after all commanding a small little manueverable frigate isn't quite the same as captaining a big giant multi gigatonne hulk of armor and weaponry. Experience gained here only affects the ship type (ie, frigate exp affects all frigate types, all capital exp affects all capitals). The skills related to this are more for combat, i.e faster reloading, better aim, improved crew co-ordination and stuff like that?
Sorry if it doesn't make sense. Y'know, that catnip chew toy is really distracting and all, and the voice ofmice are everywhere, taunting the cats' inability to get cheezburgers.
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I'd like to see EXP, but I don't want selectable skills to put points in.. What if I realize I've made a bad character build later?
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I'd like to see EXP, but I don't want selectable skills to put points in.. What if I realize I've made a bad character build later?
Exactly, I think that if that happens, then you should at least be able to wipe the skills but retain the points for a large sum of money.
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I'd like to see EXP, but I don't want selectable skills to put points in.. What if I realize I've made a bad character build later?
Part of me just wants to say 'tough ***, buck up ***', but that would be REALLY undiplomatic xD
But yeah, the obvious answer is a retrain ability. Personally, for a game that is supposed to deliver a captain, flotilla, and fleet experience at the player's discretion, I don't think any kind of fixed level track makes sense.
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I'll cry. :'(
I think any leveling of your captain should really be Real Life leveling of your skill at the game... The rest can be achieved by purchasable fleet upgrades (which must be unlocked by tech-mining abandoned worlds...?)
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I'd like to see EXP, but I don't want selectable skills to put points in.. What if I realize I've made a bad character build later?
^THIS!
The day that crap happen in this game is the day I drop it. I've seen to many games ruined by such mechanics. I don't want to be forced to keep starting over because of a mistake, a miscalculation, my taste drifting or a simple damn miss click.
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Even at the cost of being able to play the game the way you want to? Even if there's a simple retrain ability you can shell out a few credits for?
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Even at the cost of being able to play the game the way you want to? Even if there's a simple retrain ability you can shell out a few credits for?
Yes! A retrain ability is fine as long as there is no limit to it. I'm just so tired of games locking you into something for whatever reason, usually it's just laziness. It's a trend that needs to stop.
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You've got no argument for me on that. I don't like getting stuck either, because my OCD demands perfection.
Again though, having a set D&D style 'linear with small selections' style leveling system is abrasively out of place. Players ought to be able to put points into whatever they damn well please, charisma for winning over politicians and bribing system defense forces, haggling skill for prices, fleet logistics skills to lower the chance of accidents, fleet combat skills to increase the amount of starting fleet points in any given engagement, engineering to pimp your ship out, whatever you damn well please.
I think it's necessary for a procedural open world, sandbox game like Starfarer.
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I would honestly like something how XCOM did the stats, set stats from the start (your own you can be changed within a few points at the start) every other you get has their set points, and as they level, it goes up based on *1. What type of combat they engage in the most ect. 2. A system that allows you to place a number of points based on total level, into which ever stat you want, maybe unlocking bonuses? 3. Add those two together making it so if you don't use one thing as often, but you know you'll need it, so you can put points into it, yet at the same time something you use most of the time goes up on its own and is less of a point hog from other things.*
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No, exactly what we don't want. It means you need a new file to change your play style.
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Didn't xcom have random stats? That's just going to turn into a game of endless restart till you get them the way you want, bad idea.
I'm more for just spending credits on upgrades.
Combine that with those special keys that unlock technology and you have a nice little system.
Some keys can be in the hands of factions that will only allow it's use if you are in good enough standing with them.
Others can be bought or 'liberated' from collectors and other people.
Some could be locked away in dangerous and remote locations.
That adds a lot to the game with just a simple to understand mechanic and it's all credit/slot based and can be modified with only a cost in time and credits.
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Personally I'd go with a simple perk system, no stats whatsoever. You get a slot at start and as you play you unlock more slots to put perks in. Simple, clean, efficient.
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That sounds like it could work actually.