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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: pedro1_1 on February 24, 2020, 04:15:24 PM

Title: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 24, 2020, 04:15:24 PM
since the post from @sogriffin (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=18043.0), I was thinking, which weapon would be statistically the worst weapon in the game, I also asked myself what would be the worst weapon for each mount and size of mount.

I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Bomb_Bay), I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

also medium missile Proximity Charge Launcher (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Proximity_Charge_Launcher) falls on the same category as the bomb bay, why? Just, why? Wasps are a good fighter and you whant to give a ship this thing? This thing also ends up being the worst missile weapon of all.

Medium Balistics:
Thumper (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Thumper), know for not doing damage to shields and armor, this weapon gets the worst end of the medium balistics, mostly because it is outclassed by every weapon of it's size and group.

Large Balistics:
Storm Needler (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Storm_Needler), just go to the added explanation to understand why.

Small Missile:
Atropos-Class Torpedo(Single) (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Atropos-class_Torpedo_(Single)), this weapon get's outclassed by basically all the small missiles, even the single Harpoon is more versitile, mostly because it can garantee a hit on a overloaded frigate, unlike this thing, which does not do much outside of being a good bomber weapon

now for the mounts I don't think I have enought knologe for:
Large Missile;
Small Energy;
Medium Energy;
Large Energy;
Energy in general.


Added Explanation:
This is suposed to be a statistical analisis, so a weapon can be blody overpowered, but even then be the worst weapon in the game because every other weapon is better than it, an example of this is Megas post, were he points out some weapons, like the Storm Needler as being the worst Large Balistics, the main reason as to why is very clear: it has 700 range against all of the other large balistics which have 900 range and 1200 for gauss, is the weapon capable of performing? Yes, it the weapon capable of performing above the avarege weapon of this mount type? No.

other thing to make clear, this is about geting the worst weapon in game, in which you can equip in a ship, so even if X weapon is not acessible in the campain, but you can equip it on a ship if you get it, it does count.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 24, 2020, 05:55:52 PM
Medium Ballistics:  Probably Thumper.  It is not so bad that it is useless or a liability, but all it is good for is finishing off enemies in the early game when I have junk.  I do not see a use for endgame loadouts when I have everything.

Large Ballistics:  Probably Storm Needler, thanks to poor shot range (700 range? Come on!).  Hellbore is good for cheap armor cracking.  Devastator is cheap and good PD against frigates and destroyers.  Mark IX it is solid 900 range kinetic spewer.  HAG and Mjolnir are general purpose assault guns.  Gauss is a sniper weapon.  Storm Needler can be useful, but it is the one weapon I find myself pass over most due to its 700 range.

Small Missile:  None of the small missiles seem like real lemons to use compared to each other.  I have complaints with individual ones, and low ammo for all of them (except Salamander).

Large Missiles:  Either Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reaper because the only good ship that can use them effectively, Legion (XIV), cannot be bought or built.  Gryphon is too fragile for general combat, Apogee's points off at an angle (want to aim torpedoes instead of firing your energy weapon?), Conquest is built for broadside ballistic combat, Odyssey is built for brawling to its left, Astral is built for bomber spam, Atlas 2 is an intentionally underpowered ship built for pirates.  Starsector needs to do at least one of: restore Aurora's large missile mount, buff Gryphon to play like pre-0.7.2a Aurora, make Legion (XIV) blueprints accessible so that those ships can be bought or built, or add new competitive ship that can ram Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reapers down ships' throats.  Currently, unless I have Legion (XIV) in my fleet, the dumb-fire large missiles are impractical to use.

Small Energy:  Mining Laser.  It needs boosts (IPDAI) to have some use.  By the time I have IPDAI, I have better PD lasers.

Medium Energy:  Ion Pulser.  Too short-ranged and inefficient.  The only ship I might use it on is Aurora, but I have little incentive to use Aurora in the first place.

Large Energy:  Paladin PD.  It is a flux hog, and can overload Paragon that wants to fire several.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: ranprieur on February 24, 2020, 06:10:53 PM
Piranhas are no joke. I've done a lot of loadout testing in the simulator, and they outperform some bombers that cost more points. Even frigates sometimes fail to dodge their clouds of bombs.

LR-PD seems like a good idea, but in practice, regular PD lasers work better for point defense, and Tactical Lasers work better at long range.

I think the most overrated weapon is any Reaper in the hands of AI. They almost always get shot down by point defense, because the AI is not smart enough to zoom in and drop them on ships that are overloading.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 24, 2020, 06:23:19 PM
Medium Ballistics:  Probably Thumper.  It is not so bad that it is useless or a liability, but all it is good for is finishing off enemies in the early game when I have junk.  I do not see a use for endgame loadouts when I have everything.
The thumper is definitely top pick for a tragic weapon. It has all the weaknesses of a fragmentation weapon, but isn't good as point defense. The 5% armor system deals a devastating blow to frag weapons, and impact Mitigation 1 also armor caps naked hull.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 24, 2020, 08:13:12 PM
LR-PD seems like a good idea, but in practice, regular PD lasers work better for point defense, and Tactical Lasers work better at long range.

 2-3 LRPD are good to intercept 1-2 Sabots for cheap. And a bit of flux efficient soft flux damage. Basically it's for Eagle and Falcon.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 24, 2020, 08:17:50 PM
To me the single light autocannon stands out as the worst weapon. It is inaccurate, inefficient, low DPS, and high OP cost for its DPS. In its current form it has no redeeming qualities. I believe it is getting an extremely large accuracy boost for next version: that, a change to 1.0 efficiency, and a reduction to 3 OP would make it an ok gun.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 24, 2020, 08:46:56 PM
To me the single light autocannon stands out as the worst weapon. It is inaccurate, inefficient, low DPS, and high OP cost for its DPS. In its current form it has no redeeming qualities. I believe it is getting an extremely large accuracy boost for next version: that, a change to 1.0 efficiency, and a reduction to 3 OP would make it an ok gun.

that is a good argument, but the Standard Bomb Bay is at the same OP cost, has even worst acurracy, 15 ammo whith Extended Magazines which in turn means the maximum up time of this weapon is 15 seconds and it can be blocked by flack fire, even the light autocannon is a weapon I would think of using unlike the SBB.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 24, 2020, 08:51:16 PM
I don't believe the standard bomb bay can be sold or equipped on ships though? I may be mistaken, but I thought it was Piranha exclusive at this point.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 24, 2020, 09:00:54 PM
I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Bomb_Bay), I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

Sorry to be a buzzkill here, but you realise that the Standard Bomb Bay is not acquirable in the campaign? The fact you can put it on ships in the single missions is an oversight to me, it should have the SYSTEM tag like any other fighter-only weapon. Given that, I don't think it's fair to call it out as "a bad weapon".



It's difficult to point out a "worst weapon" for the game, because most content in the game is designed to have both strengths and weaknesses to make nothing objectively better or worse than anything else. Sure a weapon might have low range, damage, accuracy and cost too much flux (I can't think of anything that is all four of these), but I'll bet you a Paragon's paycheck that it's extremely cheap. And you can have weapons that are good in the players hands but poor in the AI's hands, or vice versa. Things like that boil down almost always to being subjective.

So let's be subjective. Personally, I'm not a fan of the small Autocannons. I'm not rightly sure what it is I dislike about them, but they just rarely feel effective enough. It could be the inaccuracy, it could be the inefficiency, but if I was to make one change to the LAC and LDAC to buff them for whatever reason, it would be a slight increase in fire rate.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 24, 2020, 09:08:52 PM
I think I know which weapon is the worst in game, and it's the Standard Bomb Bay (https://starsector.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Bomb_Bay), I mean why would anyone equip a ship whith one of these things if you can equip a carrier whith Piranas, which use the same weapon and are better at using it, which is not to say much since piranas are a joke.

Sorry to be a buzzkill here, but you realise that the Standard Bomb Bay is not acquirable in the campaign? The fact you can put it on ships in the single missions is an oversight to me, it should have the SYSTEM tag like any other fighter-only weapon. Given that, I don't think it's fair to call it out as "a bad weapon".

I'm talking about what weapon is the statistically worst you can use, as of now, you can use the bomb bay on ships as of now so it counts next update we will have a new balance pach and as such we will need a new tread to find out which is the worst weapon on that pach
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on February 24, 2020, 10:33:24 PM
Bomb bay is not available in the campaign AFAIK, so its definitely not a fair comparison to other weapons. I'm pretty sure it's an oversight if you can equip it somewhere else, it's definitely intended as a fighter weapon not a ship weapon. 
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 24, 2020, 10:40:32 PM
Alright then, I'll play ball.

Standard Bomb Bay = worst weapon in vanilla? Nah.

Spoiler

(https://i.imgur.com/zqK0Dbx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/xGdwGmQ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/KBRharD.png)

[close]
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on February 24, 2020, 11:00:53 PM
The 5% armor system deals a devastating blow to frag weapons, and impact Mitigation 1 also armor caps naked hull.
I would really really like a ship system that gets around this, or at least reduces it, even if it's only for certain hulls or something.  It really strips out a lot of interesting builds (which still wouldn't be top tier but at least wouldn't feel painful to field).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 24, 2020, 11:08:57 PM
Alright then, I'll play ball.

Standard Bomb Bay = worst weapon in vanilla? Nah.

Spoiler

(https://i.imgur.com/zqK0Dbx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/xGdwGmQ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/KBRharD.png)

[close]

the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo, outside of that Light Autocannon is worse in every way, but it has infinite ammo, so much that it would be the worst weapon in the game if the standard bomb bay had infinity ammo, or a version of it
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 25, 2020, 12:53:32 AM
the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo...

Hum. So... What about missiles?

The Standard Bomb Bay has 10 shots each doing 400 HE damage for 4000 lifetime damage. That's easily comparable to a Harpoon MRM Rack or Atropos Torpedo Rack as far as total damage output goes, accounting for the reduced effectiveness against heavy armour and then some.

Not trying to undermine your opinion here, just trying to understand why you think the bomb bay is quite so awful.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 25, 2020, 12:59:55 AM
If I had to pick a single weapon, it would be Thumper of course. It's one of those weapons you only put on a ship when it's just recovered and you try to slap anything you have currently in cargo.
Small ballistic: Light autocannon for obvious reasons
Large ballistic: Tbh most of them are meh considering they're large but also for me it would be Storm needler, it's so sooo niche you can't really fit it on anything that can take the flux cost and is not glacially slow to compensate for its range. Theoretically it could work on Conquest but why would you ever go close range with a glass cannon. It's a bit sad for large kinetics, Mark IX for some reason has 1.15 efficiency when it's the most average weapon out of all larges. And Gauss is again not a general weapon.
Small energy: Mining laser
Medium energy: Heavy burst laser, I mean why the *** does this exist? It's so terribly bad for a PD weapon AND not cheap on OP, this would be a close second behind Thumper for all time *** weapon
Large energy: Paladin PD, oh hey look another energy PD, it's almost as it's intended for high tech ships that they use small mounts for PD and larger ones for general weapons. Even if Paladins gets buffed there's still hardly any reason to put it on something unless it has 5-6 large mounts.
Small missile: tbh anything that's listed as ''single'' except the Reaper, why would you even pay OP for a single missile that's not even enough to kill a frigate, just put more vents or caps.
Medium missile: Proximity charge launcher, I don't even know what it does and that tells a lot about the weapon
Large Missile: Nothing here is terribly bad but Hammer Barrage is obviously the weakest of all, makes sense since it's available on open market but it usually misses most targets (it's like a Hurricane MIRV but inverted) unless you're point blank. Fast daamage but it kinda runs out quickly, which is ok I guess since mostly Ludds and Pirates use it.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: SCC on February 25, 2020, 04:06:02 AM
Mining laser, heavy burst laser and Paladin PD. All are too flux inefficient, but HBL and PPD also have the issue of hogging very important slots on most ships. If you want HBL done right, check out Machete from Disassble Reassemble.
Other than that, it's only mining blaster that I would call pointless, but even it has its defenders.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 25, 2020, 04:58:11 AM
If you want HBL done right, check out Machete from Disassble Reassemble.
True true, that thing is really great. If I want to spend a medium energy slot for a PD weapon, I also want that weapon to do more than just hit a few missiles on the way (and even that's not crazy good since flak is the king of PD). That got me thinking, would an energy aoe weapon be too good or break balance?
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on February 25, 2020, 05:23:53 AM
Recently I've been trying some weird builds for my ships, like an onslaught with it's mediums being HMGs and only using it's central large slot for a large weapon, the other two being more HMGs.

One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 25, 2020, 05:30:40 AM
One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?
Can't say that I have, at least I don't remember similar builds. Because pretty much all bigger weapons have more range and dps. But the biggest problem imo is ballistics having no good large PD option and energies having bad small weapons. If that weren't the case I could see myself using a Odyssey build with Paladins or a PD Onslaught as you mentioned.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 25, 2020, 06:16:58 AM
For light ballistics, excluding bomb bay, my pick would be light needler.  It is good, but too overpriced.  Anytime I consider light needler, I want railgun instead every time.  Light Needler needs its 800 range from pre-0.9a releases back!  As for light autocannon, it is not that bad, but it is overpriced for what it does.  Make it 3 OP and it would be more useful.  If dual light machine guns were not useful for some niche builds like SO berserkers, that probably would have been my pick for worst light ballistic.  5 OP seems too much for a minor DPS boost over the cheap light machine gun.

I mentioned 700 range as the reason Storm Needler is the worst heavy ballistic.  With 700 range, any AI ships that have it need Aggressive AI to use it effectively, while other heavy weapons can get by with Steady.  I tried Conquest loadouts with various combinations of weapons, some with Storm Needler and others without.  They all kill the enemy at about the same time, so why would I want to be dragged closer to Storm Needler range when I can pop enemies from further away with 800 to 900 range ballistics?

Mining blaster is sub-par, but it is a great armor cracker for starter Apogee against weaker battlestations it can solo.  Early game, if I find Locusts first, I prioritize it over the large energy mount, and will keep mining blaster as an armor cracker until I find Plasma Cannon.  Mining Blaster is probably the best weapon Hyperion can use, but Hyperion is sub-par in 0.9a.

Heavy burst PD is bad because it is merely a burst PD with a bit more range and charges at significantly more flux and OP costs.  If not for Ion Pulser, heavy burst PD would be my pick.  At the range Ion Pulser is effective, non high-tech ships with SO can simply kill the enemy quickly instead with HMGs and chainguns.  Why cripple the enemy instead of killing it?

As for small missile, if I had to pick one, it would be small Atropos, and only because 2 OP costs too much for it.  It may be too cheap at 1 OP, but 2 OP is too much.  Atropos would be good at 1200 damage, but I think Alex mentioned that was too strong on Daggers.  Stupid Daggers ruining Atropos for playership use!

If there were more ships that could use Hammer Barrage and Cyclone Reaper effectively, my choice for worst large missile would be Squalls.  Low ammo, horrible tracking, less effective than Sabots at overloading ships.  But, with the current ships, dumb-fire anything are the worst because no ship aside from Legion (XIV) can use them effectively or survive contact with the enemy.  I suppose suicide berserker disposable Gryphon could work.  Maybe next release, Radiant for those with Automated Ships can use them as wingmen, but that relies on player getting a certain level 5 tech skill (and player cannot pilot Radiant).  Hammer Barrage has low ammo, but player can dump the whole clip fast and destroy whatever is in front of it quickly.  (Cyclone Reaper takes ages to reload, and Reapers are too fragile without Missile Spec.)  If Hammer Barrage had more ammo or less OP cost, it would be good, provided it had good ships to use them, which there are not today aside from Legion (XIV).

Quote
If that weren't the case I could see myself using a Odyssey build with Paladins or a PD Onslaught as you mentioned.
Paladin would be no good because its flux cost is too high.  I tried Paladin on Paragon as an alternative autopulse, but the flux cost is high enough to overload Paragon.

I have used beam PD on Falcon or Eagle at times because their energy mounts are set so far back, and they rely mostly on ballistics for damage.

Quote
Large Missile: Nothing here is terribly bad but Hammer Barrage is obviously the weakest of all, makes sense since it's available on open market but it usually misses most targets (it's like a Hurricane MIRV but inverted) unless you're point blank. Fast daamage but it kinda runs out quickly, which is ok I guess since mostly Ludds and Pirates use it.
Radiants too, and they are nasty.

P.S.  Come to think of it, maybe 1 OP is not too cheap on Atropos.  It cannot be used point-blank like Harpoons because of the arming delay, and the range is much worse.  Atropos trades range and point-black use for slightly better stats than Harpoon.  Maybe it would compete with one-shot Hammer, but that does 1500 damage instead of 1000.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 25, 2020, 07:17:01 AM
Light Needler has a reasonable cost compared with Dual Light Autocannon. It's just that Railgun is underpriced.

Proximity Charge launcher, Bomb Bay, Atropos, those are all weapons primarily intended for fighters, so it isn't much of a problem they are weaker on ship hulls. You can also add Annihilator Rocket Launcher to the list of poor weapons. Personally I rather like using Atropos-class Torpedo Rack when in smaller fleets as they make for a more reliable and faster Reaper alternative.

As for standard bomb bay, I'm pretty sure at some point it was available. Don't know if it's been patched out or if it was produced from blueprint. Yeah sure posting pictures makes it looks great against a modded large, immobile, unshielded target that doesn't shoot back, but everything shoots back, so it's awful.

Thumper has a long history of being weak, probably because it was seemingly intended as a rubbish weapon to make pirates easier to kill. There really doesn't seem to be a design space for a general role fragmentation weapon as most of the time you will never shoot at an unarmoured hull, so it can only find good use on a player controlled ship. I suppose it can provide a spike in shield damage or as anti-fighter, but there are far better medium ballistic weapons for that.

If Storm Needler has greater range it will be absolutely deadly. To put its range in perspective, Plasma Cannon and Autopulse Laser have the exact same range. It's more of that other ballistic weapons have extremely long ranges.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 25, 2020, 07:36:44 AM
the only reason I put it as the worst is because it has limited ammo...

Hum. So... What about missiles?

The Standard Bomb Bay has 10 shots each doing 400 HE damage for 4000 lifetime damage. That's easily comparable to a Harpoon MRM Rack or Atropos Torpedo Rack as far as total damage output goes, accounting for the reduced effectiveness against heavy armour and then some.

Not trying to undermine your opinion here, just trying to understand why you think the bomb bay is quite so awful.

the group it's in, compared to missiles it's an actually good weapon, but because it's in balistics it falls far because of it's ammo, AM blaster has limited ammo, but can it consume all of it in 10-15 seonds? No, that's the reason a limited ammo weapon can be  good, whie other can be bad or in the SBB case, being the worst weapon in game.

And light auto cannon is the worst small balistic weapon outside SBB, the worst them becomes Proximity Mine Launcher.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on February 25, 2020, 07:44:52 AM
If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I could give it a go on my next run however, putting it on my low tech ships as the anti-fighter to a vulcans anti-missile.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 25, 2020, 09:13:54 AM
9 OP for 700 range Light Needler is too high, maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun.  If not, 7 OP so that is it a choice between damage and accuracy (railgun) or speed and flux efficiency (needler).  Railgun has been unchanged for a long time, and it was not broken.  Light Needler was worth 9 OP when it had 800 range (and lots of ammo when ballistics had ammo).  7 OP may be less than Arbalest's 8, but Arbalest is a basic Open Market weapon (like Thumper and Mortars) while Railgun and Needlers are elite weapons that require high rep and commission to buy (until player steals the blueprints).

Proxy bombs are terrible for PD.  They are too slow and run out of ammo too quickly.  To add insult to injury, they cost 12 OP instead of the standard 10.  If proxy bombs cost 7 OP or gained ammo regeneration, they could be worth using.  As they are, they are only good on flash wings.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 25, 2020, 09:46:57 AM
Proximity Mine's take up a valuable slot and are overcosted, but they do get the job done by massacring fighters and popping incoming ordinance. If you play the mission where you need to solo an astral with a dominator, proximity mines make it much easier. But I agree, they could stand to have both less OP and a regen system.

The Light Needler is nearly a carbon copy of the Heavy Needler with 100 less range: 60% DPS for 60% OP cost, same penetration, 50% of the alpha burst with a slightly faster fire rate, same efficiency. 800 range makes it a medium weapon in a small mount: a copy of the BEST medium kinetic in a small mount even.

So the question is: what should be the efficiency differences in DPS/OP between small and medium ballistics? In general, smalls are more dps/op efficient but with shorter range: dual light autocannon is 143 DPS/600 range for 5 OP, while medium autocannon has 214 DPS/800 range for 10 OP, and I think the community is in reasonable agreement that both guns fall into the "useful but not overpowered" range. The dps/op ratios are 28.6 and 21.4, respectively. If we apply the same ratio to the HN/LN dps, we get an OP value of 6.7. However, the range gap between the Heavy and Light needlers is smaller, and light needlers have more range than the light dual autocannon: with those advantages I'd bump the Light Needler to 8 OP and call it ok.

That was a really long analysis for a 1 OP bump -_-. Lets not do the railgun: its overpowered, bump it to 8 OP and see how it does.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 25, 2020, 09:50:29 AM
Light needler is plenty deadly as is. The burst-y nature of the weapon gives it a much higher front loaded DPS, and front loaded damage is the ideal solution for shield breaking. The light railgun might have more sheer DPS per OP point, but the needler more than compensates with its higher flux efficiency. Getting more bang for your flux will save OP in the long haul.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 25, 2020, 10:11:01 AM
If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I could give it a go on my next run however, putting it on my low tech ships as the anti-fighter to a vulcans anti-missile.
My vague memories of trying out the Proximity Charge Launcher as a ship weapon was that it was slow and can even get shot down and so realistically speaking never seems to be in the right place. It's good on the unlikely chance it does hit.

9 OP for 700 range Light Needler is too high, maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun.  If not, 7 OP so that is it a choice between damage and accuracy (railgun) or speed and flux efficiency (needler).  Railgun has been unchanged for a long time, and it was not broken.  Light Needler was worth 9 OP when it had 800 range (and lots of ammo when ballistics had ammo).  7 OP may be less than Arbalest's 8, but Arbalest is a basic Open Market weapon (like Thumper and Mortars) while Railgun and Needlers are elite weapons that require high rep and commission to buy (until player steals the blueprints).

Proxy bombs are terrible for PD.  They are too slow and run out of ammo too quickly.  To add insult to injury, they cost 12 OP instead of the standard 10.  If proxy bombs cost 7 OP or gained ammo regeneration, they could be worth using.  As they are, they are only good on flash wings.
The cost of the Light Needler is appropriate compared with Light Dual Cannon. Light Needler does about the same amount of dps, with a "free" inbuilt 3 OP worth of flux vents. That's already worth 8 OP. It has faster projectile speed with better accuracy and +100 range. Another +1 OP for that seems very reasonable for all those advantages especially when that extra range is worth +1 OP all by itself.

Compared with Arbalest Autocannon, it does the same dps for the same flux, but has faster projectile speed and better accuracy. +1 OP for its advantages seem reasonable, though one could argue that it does less damage to armour. But one is a medium mount and one is a small mount. Medium mounts are more precious than small mounts especially for dealing dps. So compared with the 8 OP Arbalest Autocannon which is, saying that Light Needler is worth maybe 8 at most, provided something is done to Railgun is ridiculous.

Same with the Railgun. It's is easily worth at least 9 OP compared with Dual Light Autocannon and about 8 OP compared with Arbalest Autocannon, nevermind its projectile speed and pin point accuracy.

Sure you might claim that neither the Light Needler nor Railgun doesn't do as much dps per OP, but when configuring a ship, useful weapon mounts are normally the limiting factor.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Serenitis on February 25, 2020, 10:15:55 AM
As for standard bomb bay, I'm pretty sure at some point it was available. Don't know if it's been patched out or if it was produced from blueprint.
It is available in the campaign, but only via salvage, and has no blueprints. If you explore long enough you can guarantee you'll find one or two of them.
Tbh, it probably shouldn't appear at all.

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system.
It works okay but still isn't super useful due to being slow, drifting ordnance that doesn't care about friendly fire, which absolutely will bite you in the flank if you use it enough.
They're somewhat useful as strike weapons as they can saturate an entire ship when its right in front of you, and are reasonably good at chewing up armour. But I wouldn't call them great at all.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 25, 2020, 10:34:16 AM
I decided to write up a little chart of railgun damage vs. light needler damage. I don't have the exact needler parameters, so I did a 1.5sec burst (15 shots) with 3.5sec cooldown (150DPS). The railgun plinks away every 60/100 => 0.6s. Damage is counted when the shot gets fired, fite me 1v1 irl.

The needler definitely jumps out to an early lead, and for some fights that's all you really need. Once an enemy gets their flux overloaded, their AI starts panicking and pulling the ship away. After the shields are overloaded then needler damage doesn't really matter anymore, all kinetics are awful against armor.

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Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 25, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
You can find exact needler parameters in "weapon_data.csv". Its burst is 0.7 seconds. It doesn't have a wind up time.

Quick appraisal of graph - railgun waits 0.6 seconds before firing, as opposed to immediately or near immediately as you have in the graph. X-axis unit in seconds, but that just a quibble. Also you should try to extend the X-axis greatly, the graph will look totally different 0.7s later, trust me.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 25, 2020, 11:23:58 AM
If a weapon costs as much as a low-end bigger weapon, I have no problem with it performing like one.  9 is barely below mid-grade medium.

If I select a weaker kinetic for medium mount (due to lack of OP or dissipation, Heavy Autocannon too clumsy, or 800 range too much)  I always take Arbalest over Light Needler due to costing 8 OP instead of 9.  If they both cost the same, then it would be a toss-up depending what I want more.  I tend to prefer steady over multi-shot burst for kinetics.  (Steady suppression is more useful if I cannot amass enough burst damage to outright overload and paralyze ships.)  For Arbalest or Railgun, I usually take Railgun over Arbalest (assuming unlimited availability) due to both cheaper cost and perfect accuracy.

I do not care about comparison between Light Needler and autocannons as long as Railgun is there.  If Railgun stays at 7, then Light Needler with 700 range is worth no more than 7.  I am okay with Railgun being at 8.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 25, 2020, 12:27:34 PM
The railgun has a lag time of 0.6? Okay, I can add that in.
I doubled the burst speed to 0.75s. Close enough for a rough appraisal.

It's true that more DPS ultimately gives more, but if you haven't cracked the shields in 30 seconds chances are you aren't going to.

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Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Daynen on February 25, 2020, 01:50:49 PM
For large ballistics I have to give it to the devastator, honestly.  The huge variance in detonation range makes it hideously unreliable for point defense (you know, its apparently intended purpose?) and the damage to shields and armor is underwhelming.  For the OP cost, I'd take literally anything else.  A storm needler, a hellbore--anything.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.

Small ballistics?  Hmm.  I usually try to get away from small ships as fast as possible so I honestly don't monitor small weapons as closely.  Have to pass on this one.

Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 25, 2020, 02:07:20 PM
For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.
Are you playing with some wacky mods? I've never witnessed a flak cannon detonate prematurely, it always hits at max range. Still I'm shocked to see someone mention flaks as the worst.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 25, 2020, 03:11:04 PM
I've seen Flaks miss skill boosted Salamanders, but thats a tracking issue rather than a detonation issue. Imo Flaks are extremely reliable, high powered PD weapons.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Tackywheat1 on February 25, 2020, 05:00:27 PM
For large ballistics I have to give it to the devastator, honestly.  The huge variance in detonation range makes it hideously unreliable for point defense (you know, its apparently intended purpose?) and the damage to shields and armor is underwhelming.  For the OP cost, I'd take literally anything else.  A storm needler, a hellbore--anything.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.  Dual flaks are only slightly better due to the better coverage.  Those things REALLY need a narrower detonation range by a little bit.  Low damage on an AOE weapon is fine but it needs to TRY to pop somewhere in the same GALAXY as the targets.

Small ballistics?  Hmm.  I usually try to get away from small ships as fast as possible so I honestly don't monitor small weapons as closely.  Have to pass on this one.

Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

Dual Flak always detonates at max range or upon hitting a target. It is probably the BEST PD weapon in the game...
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 25, 2020, 09:18:39 PM
the group it's in, compared to missiles it's an actually good weapon, but because it's in balistics it falls far because of it's ammo, AM blaster has limited ammo, but can it consume all of it in 10-15 seonds? No, that's the reason a limited ammo weapon can be  good, whie other can be bad or in the SBB case, being the worst weapon in game.

Interesting. Can't say I fully agree, but I'm not really sure how to further that point so I'll drop it there.

... the worst them becomes Proximity Mine Launcher.

If the proxy mine launcher had an autoloader like the pilum I could see myself using it as a fighter denial system. As it stands it's limited ammo vs unlimited fighters makes it less desirable.

I agree at least on principle here. I'm often loathe to use the Proximity Charge Launcher as a point defense weapon (as it presents itself) because of the limited ammo - a PD weapon that takes up a medium missile slot is a fairly large opportunity cost on most ships, you want it to be worth it in the long run. However, it's up-front damage potential really makes it look like a strike weapon, doesn't it? Personally I would like the PCL to make a decision one way or the other, I don't find it appealing as the multi-role weapon I think it's pretending to be. I'd like it to have either increased projectile speed and reduced AOE, or less damage and an autoloader - you're a specialized weapon, PCL: pick one role and do it well.

Quote
[Light Needler stuff]

I have to admit I rarely use the Light Needler, I think because of the price being paid for a small weapon. It's odd because I very much enjoy the Antimatter Blaster, despite it being the same cost, and in fact I'm happy to put an AMB into a medium slot. I think it comes from the uniqueness of the weapon, whereas the Light Needler to me just feels like an ordinary flechette gun. Perhaps it's the visuals, or just the concept of a rapid-fire burst weapon where each shot does hardly any damage, but it just doesn't feel impactful enough to be worth that much OP. Don't get me wrong, it's a great weapon - good efficiency, unbeatable burst damage, and good range - but I agree with Megas that the Railgun at least looks superior in many situations. I'd be down to see the Light Needler get a range reduction and perhaps a damage increase, so it becomes a more impactful weapon.

For medium ballistics, you guessed it: flak cannons.  See Devastator for precisely the same reason.

I think you might have something weird going on, Flak Cannons are one of the most reliable PD weapons in the game. Flak Cannons don't have the same "detonation range variance" that the Devastator does, I have no idea where you're getting that impression from - the shot only detonates once it reaches maximum range (or is triggered by a missile/fighter).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Aereto on February 25, 2020, 09:36:33 PM
Most missiles are really not my bag; the limited ammo turns a lot of ships into VERY limited use vessels and I prefer my boys to be able to duke it out.  I tend to avoid reapers more than anything though; the critically limited shots combined with the likelihood of my lemming AI ships blowing themselves up is just too much to bear.  Fantastic damage yeah, but if you miss...let's just say I don't need that kind of negativity in my life and leave it at that.

I typically use Salamanders on most ships for medium/small slots for that reason. Something to make PD weapons busy while the real deal missiles go to fighters, frigates (due to smallest peak time), and Gryphon (best missile spammer ship in vanilla but Astrals are best missile spammers overall due to single bomber wing type configs + recall device combo). Pilums in vanilla are only good as pressure/area denial weapons when the entire battle fleet spams missiles, acting as mobile mines that punish anything poorly defended.

I use medium/large Reapers on specific ships like Doom phase ship since they tend to run out of peak time before they run out of torps. Small ones would be in fighter wings, especially when it comes to station busting or expecting several capitals in one battle. Astral with 6 Cobras with a strike-oriented officer made sure they better don't get distracted. If it's a phase ship, beam/ion fighters with PD capability made sure they make an area denial radius around the carrier.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 26, 2020, 05:09:17 AM
I think the difference between light needler and railgun is far more significant in AI hands rather than in player hands. Ship behavior on both sides is altered by flux levels and the needler surges flux quickly. A needler burst can quickly bring a ship towards overload, so the attacker will push in harder than normal. Good for staying on the attack and ultimately scoring kills.

The burst behavior is great for rapidly pulling in and out of combat. Every fresh duel starts off at the needler's advantage, since cooling down out of battle still contributes to future damage. Needler is also hurt far less by turret motion than the railgun.

The downside is that needler is far more vulnerable to shield flicker (which the AI is generally bad at). Players are also generally better with choosing proper engagement ranges, so they won't notice as much between railgun and needler.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 26, 2020, 05:42:16 AM
I think AM Blaster is (a bit) overpriced too, and too niche.  Good for phase ships and maybe Scarab, probably the best weapon for Harbinger now that it cannot use Reapers, but impractical (or at least annoying to use) on nearly anything else.  Still, AM Blaster has a niche for hit-and-run ships.

Light Needler at 9 OP, I expect close to Heavy Autocannon (overall) performance.  It had a niche when it had 800 range before 0.9a, even if DPS was a bit less.  Now, it is an overpriced Railgun or Arbalest as far as I am concerned, which cost 7 or 8 OP.  It may have flux efficiency, but it is so expensive for small mounts that it is too hard to leverage that advantage.  (Hard to max vents or get flux hullmods and all the needlers I want.)

Another disadvantage of Light Needler bursts is flux spikes making flux management harder.  AI does not handle self-inflicted flux spikes very well.  And needlers' bursts do not put all of the damage in one shot like blaster shots, but a stream of multiple shots where AI is more likely to lower shield on time, avoid overload, and armor tank the rest of the burst.  It is still possible to overload, Onslaught with about five or so heavy needlers can overload ships at times.  It would be much easier if the damage was more front-loaded.  Shield flicker and self-inflicted flux spikes are why I prefer steady firing kinetics over needle bursts if the latter is not enough to outright overload and paralyze ships like AM blaster salvos can do.

Speaking of overpriced, why is Thumper 9 OP?  I might use it bit more if it costs 7 or 8 OP.  As it is, I rather get another Mortar or Arbalest (and Railgun is better than Arbalest).  Its DPS does not mean much if too much damage is absorbed by armor.

P.S.  I even tried Proxy Bombs as a heavy blaster substitute on Harbinger when it had synergy mounts last release.  (Because PPT would expire before running out of ammo.)  Its damage matches or is close to heavy blaster, and costs no flux, so it should punch holes in stuff, right?  Not really.  The mines denotated far enough away that it usually punched smaller holes than a blaster, despite the bombs having HE.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 26, 2020, 06:23:35 AM
That you can compare railgun to medium sized weapons says it all really. Most ballistic small weapons look terrible compared to ballistic medium weapons. Railgun is great because it is undercosted. Light needler looks bad against railgun because all small kinetic weapons look bad against railgun.

Antimatter Blaster is fine. It has a use and if it was cheaper it would be even more favoured as a weapon of choice for phase ships and as a strike weapon. It's good that weapons that can fulfil different roles exist, otherwise all loadouts will look the same.

The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Lucky33 on February 26, 2020, 06:24:22 AM
Recently I've been trying some weird builds for my ships, like an onslaught with it's mediums being HMGs and only using it's central large slot for a large weapon, the other two being more HMGs.

One thing that I wanted to ask is if any of you have tried builds for ships where the medium or even the large slots are used for the point defence with the other slots being used for the actual weapons? Like a Medusa with two heavy burst lasers and so on?

I did. For the uncontrolled AI ships. They go absolutely nuts when near a missile so you need solid pd to make them relentlessly attack missile spamming ships.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on February 26, 2020, 06:37:15 AM
When it comes to SO hammerheads, the AI difference between railguns and needlers is pretty huge. The AI pilot tends to be pretty shy with the railguns, while they are much better about charging into kill range with needlers. It's all due to how the AI chooses range vs. opponent flux level.
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
Range is powerful because the AI is not terribly reliable at choosing good engagement ranges. Case in point, how many times has anyone seen a gauss Conquest charge in to secure a kill, usually against itself? Ugh. Or how many times have you seen a dozen kites all hover perfectly inside a Paragon's disco range? Long range weapons cause opponents to refuse getting in close where they would otherwise have the edge and the results aren't always pretty.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 26, 2020, 06:43:00 AM
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 26, 2020, 06:55:49 AM
I don't know bobuncles, I don't use gauss cannon conquest as an AI ship, so you tell me. It can go either way from your post. What is a disco range? Some sort of mod weapon? The point stands. Range is important to contribute to create a warding away zone and so those two medium ballistics are favoured over other non-PD ballistics. There may be a point before capital range and large ballistic weapons to help contribute to, where you may favour higher dps and better flux efficiency..

Anyways, an Onslaught with the large ballistic slot essentially has 3 frontal large weapons. Since the two sides can't converge the front anyways, there isn't as much of an overriding need to make use of the two large mounts. 3 Large weapons which have 900+ range is more than enough firepower for the most part. Legion and Conquest can concentrate 2 ballistics. Odyssey can concentrate 2 large energy. Paragon can conetrate 4 large energy, but they are energy weapons and paragon costs 60 DP. Ballistic medium slots being used for PD is pretty normal I would say, especially when large slots are the main damage dealers.

Edit:
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.
What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: lethargie on February 26, 2020, 07:18:58 AM
I'd have to say devastator for the large balistic. I definitly like using the storm needler on player ship, even if its not too great in AI hand. The devastator on the other hand is always underwhelming. Relative low range and dps because unless you are point blank on a capital most of the shell miss. Tend to miss most fighter, making it not that great against them. Re shot time is slow so even in front of a bunch of bombers it tend to not be that great at removing missiles.

Of small balistic, the light needler is too debatable to be called the "worst". It might not be the best, but I use it a lot more than light autocannon.

For small energy, I would say mining laser. As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

For medium energy, I would say the Ion pulser. If I need Ion, I'll put an ion cannon instead of it. Its a huge flux hog, It has low range with terrible spread, AI tend to flux log themselves shooting it because it's a burst weapon. On top of that its 11 op, Low sustained dps and not that great vs armor (other than the disable)
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 26, 2020, 07:35:00 AM
What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
I wasn't being hostile. And what did I repeat when you just said ''disadvantages''? That can mean literally anything. I'm just telling you they're fine, to say that any other non PD option is bad in most configs is a lie. I mean you might be using them everywhere but I know not everyone is like that.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 26, 2020, 07:36:14 AM
I think the difference between light needler and railgun is far more significant in AI hands rather than in player hands. Ship behavior on both sides is altered by flux levels and the needler surges flux quickly. A needler burst can quickly bring a ship towards overload, so the attacker will push in harder than normal. Good for staying on the attack and ultimately scoring kills.

But also suicidal against superior opponent that can simply shrug off your burst. Where Railgun user would have had enough flux to shield and retreat, Needler-user is much more likely to take damage.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Lucky33 on February 26, 2020, 08:42:02 AM
As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on February 26, 2020, 09:08:30 AM
As always, range is great until the enemy (or your AI) closes into short range anyway. ;D
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 26, 2020, 09:10:54 AM
As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.

You are always better off spending same OP budget on basic PD lasers, even if you fill fewer slots.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 26, 2020, 09:13:47 AM
Re: Mining Laser
Out-of-the-box, it is too weak to be useful on a normal ship.  Damage is too low, turning speed is nearly as slow as tactical laser, and relatively flux inefficient compared to other beam PD.  With Turret Gyros and buffed IPDAI (or Advanced Countermeasures 3), it can be put on par with better beam PD.  However, by the time I get those hullmods, either I usually have enough PD or LR PD to use, and do not need mining lasers, or normal out-of-the-box PD is not good enough, and I need better PD like burst PD.

Re: Devastator
Its best use is to swat frigates or destroyers, and ship does not have the dissipation to spare for HAG or Mjolnir.  Hellbore is too slow to swat a bunch of frigates, and the only other flux-cheap heavy option is Devastator.  I agree it is not the great fighter swatter the codex seems to advertise.  It kills some fighters, but not the whole wing when you need them dead now.  Fighters are too many targets, bigger ships likes cruisers have too much armor, but something small, fragile, and does not regenerate, like a frigate.  Good target.

Re: HVD/Mauler
I used to use these frequently in previous releases, but they do not have enough firepower to be useful as general-purpose assault weapons.  HVDs have sub-par DPS - not good when enemies can close in and outgun the defender.  Heavy Mauler fires slowly and sometimes has too much range to complement other weapons in the loadout.  I use them occasionally if I really need the range (such as Mauler in the Eagle's middle mount that sets a bit back, or HVDs in four lance Paragon to enable unblockable lances at max range).

Re: Gauss Conquest
AI drives horribly with it and has difficulty aiming weapons it, at least with a conventional loadout with Gauss in the heavies.  Cautious and Steady AI cannot decide whether to aim weapons or kite, and acts confused.  Aggressive officer drives too close and defeats the point of Gauss.  Maybe someone else like TaLaR has an unconventional Gauss loadout that AI behaves properly with.

Quote
That you can compare railgun to medium sized weapons says it all really.
Not a bad idea when 9 OP is just shy of mid-grade medium.  That is the reason why I am not opposed to 8 OP on Railgun, thanks to Arbalest.  (Arbalest can be a bit junky since it is Open Market grade.)  9 OP is too close to Heavy Autocannon.  9 OP on light needler?  Not with Arbalest and Railgun around.

Quote
Antimatter Blaster is fine. It has a use and if it was cheaper it would be even more favoured as a weapon of choice for phase ships and as a strike weapon. It's good that weapons that can fulfil different roles exist, otherwise all loadouts will look the same.
I doubt it.  Antimatter blaster will always be taken by phase ships piloted by player because there is not much else those ships can use well.  As a general purpose assault weapon, it stinks.  The only reason it cost is somewhat justified is AI exploitation, which usually means outright paralyze a ship for twelve seconds after hitting its shield when its flux is nearly capped.  Kind of a lame reason.  If not for stupid tricks like that, it would be bad because its stats on paper are worse than IR Pulse Laser.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 26, 2020, 10:26:11 AM
Mining laser could be theoretically useful if you have many small energy mounts with poor arcs but not enough OP to fulfil a full PD coverage. Perhaps on Shrike or Odyssey, though you can get full coverage with less weapon mounts. I place mining laser in the same category of proximity charge launcher/bomb bay. A weapon that exists so a fighter can use it. It also "characterful".

Devastator can be useful on the side of an Onslaught. I suppose it can have the role of thumper to make ships easier to beat, though you can do that by fixing in a medium weapon in the mount.

I can't see a good use for Ion Pulsar either. I suppose it is intended as an Safety Override energy weapon or for phase ships.

The more ships with more high ranged weapons you have, the less likely the enemy (or your AI) closes into short range anyway. It's not just fighters and missiles which can cause a warding off effect. I don't see why anybody would put an aggressive officer on a gauss cannon conquest anyways. Seems to defeat the point of the build, like putting an aggressive officer on a dedicated carrier.

I don't see why anyone would try to use the antimatter blaster as a general purpose weapon and compare it to such weapons. There are plenty of other energy weapons to fulfil that role. Not to mention antimatter blaster is limited by ammo so you can't use it as as general purpose weapon anyways. Surely as a weapon instead of proclaiming it overcosted, you could increase its cost to see where the tipping point where you would stop using it. lets see. For antimatter Afflictor, it'll have to be something ridiculously high like 20 OP.  There aren't any alternatives for that afflictor playstyle of repeatable spike damage so that playstyle will simply disappear for the Afflictor. For Harbinger, as it has three other good alternatives in Heavy Blaster, Mining Blaster and Phase lance, it'll depend on preference, but lets say 12 OP. Underpriced the anitmatter blaster is not.

What's your problem? Why act so hostile and then repeat exactly what I wrote? The range of Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler make all other medium non-PD ballistic not favoured. That'll require a discussion on what the difference between broken and simply favoured is. Are they broken? Of course not, the other medium weapons are still useful, just that they aren't favoured in most configs since range 1000 is so much better.  For instance is the railgun broken? No it isn't it is just undercosted.
I wasn't being hostile. And what did I repeat when you just said ''disadvantages''? That can mean literally anything. I'm just telling you they're fine, to say that any other non PD option is bad in most configs is a lie. I mean you might be using them everywhere but I know not everyone is like that.
I've got bad news for ya. Why pretend I wrote that they are broken when I did not? There is no need to pretend I wrote soemthing I did not, when it is just you.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Maeleth on February 26, 2020, 10:55:53 AM
Ballistic S: LMG. Horrible accuracy, turning&targeting, extremely low kinetic damage (meaning zero actual damage to unshielded fighters and missiles)

Ballistic M: Thumper for obvious reasons. 2nd place would be Heavy Mortar. Not accurate enough to hit any target that moves, not damaging enough to punch through anything that stays stationary.

Ballistic L: Devastator Cannon. Yet again this weapon would miss a Paragon from 2 meters away. And even if it hits, said Paragon would not be even scratched.

Missile S: Annihilator Rocket Launcher/Sabot SRM. Both can't really hit small targets, and on a bigger ones their damage is laughable at best. Not to mention extremely limited uses per battle. Better to put those extra OP on some hullmods or extra flux. However they are very, VERY potent on bombers, to the point of being completely broken.

Missile M: Proximity Charge Launcher. Why would you use sub-par PD weapon with limited ammo, ever?

Missile L: Squall MLRS. And another kind of weapon that cannot hit a broad side of a barn, while actually hitting it wouldn't make a dent. At least it's half decent in player hands.

Energy S: Mining Laser. ML cannot bring down a single salamander missile. With Advanced Countermeasures 3. Even an empty slot is more effective at being PD weapon.

Energy M: Ion Pulser. Precious medium slot, 450 range and 11 OP for a slightly better Ion Cannon? Nope. Never.

Energy L: Paladin PD System. Not a terrible weapon, but every other big laser shoota is way, wa-a-a-a-ay better. Not to mention that its range is similar to small PD weapons. So why even bother?
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Megas on February 26, 2020, 11:11:40 AM
I don't see why anyone would try to use the antimatter blaster as a general purpose weapon and compare it to such weapons. There are plenty of other energy weapons to fulfil that role. Not to mention antimatter blaster is limited by ammo so you can't use it as as general purpose weapon anyways. Surely as a weapon instead of proclaiming it overcosted, you could increase its cost to see where the tipping point where you would stop using it. lets see. For antimatter Afflictor, it'll have to be something ridiculously high like 20 OP.  There aren't any alternatives for that afflictor playstyle of repeatable spike damage so that playstyle will simply disappear for the Afflictor. For Harbinger, as it has three other good alternatives in Heavy Blaster, Mining Blaster and Phase lance, it'll depend on preference, but lets say 12 OP. Underpriced the anitmatter blaster is not.
I say it is overpriced because outside of strikes from phase ships or overloading shields with it, I see no reason to use it.  Has ammo (no good for multi-round fights), horrible range (400), horribly slow rate-of-fire (missing hurts), massive flux spike(s), and even minor windup (no good for Hyperion with maybe a single frame to act between teleports without getting shot).  It is an awkward weapon that is the best at some special teams stuff (likely flagship only too) and bad at nearly anything else.  It is nearly as expensive as mining blaster.  I probably would not put it at 5, though.  It feels at the level of burst PD, so maybe 7 OP.  I do not think it is as versatile as mining blaster.  Can the AI use AM Blaster well?  AI seems incompetent with smaller phase ships.  Is there a good reason to use AM Blasters on more conventional ships the AI can use better, like say maybe Medusa or Aurora?

The only other viable small energy hard-flux option is IR Pulse Laser, which is mediocre except maybe on capitals.  (Aurora can use lots of IR Pulse Laser, but it is not as good as two heavy blasters and nothing else).  AM Blaster is even worse for brawling, and I certainly would not want to use it as PD if that is even possible.

I would only use AM Blaster on non-Doom phase ships, mostly because they cannot brawl.  (I would prefer old cloak to come back so phase ships can brawl with autocannons and assault guns, something AI can do.)  I guess I would use it on Scarab flagship, except Scarab stinks in 0.9a.  (It was great in 0.7.2a, though.)  Ever since invulnerability frames were removed from decloaking, I am not fond of AM Blaster on Afflictor because low range and health gives little room for error, and Afflictor can cheese fights with Reapers (for now).  For now, Harbinger flagship is the only ship I use AM Blasters with.  Mining Blaster and Phase Lances are options on Harbinger, but they are not as good as AM Blasters.  Phase Lance is competitive, but AM Blaster might be a bit better.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on February 26, 2020, 12:23:17 PM
The real elephant in the room is Hypervelocity Driver and Heavy Mauler. Range is important and those two weapons have the extraordinary range of 1000. Those two weapons in combination are generally favoured over every other non-PD medium ballistic weapons even with all their disadvantages.
What elephant? You just described the lowest possible DPS weapon combo. People favour them because they have range, and people like having range on ships. If you seriously think they're broken for their OP cost I've got bad news for ya.

And instead of making railgun more expensive just further increase the delay before it starts firing. Then lower Light needler to 8 OP and it's all good. There's really no reason to be lower than that, it's a pretty rare weapon after all.

I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Lucky33 on February 26, 2020, 12:59:46 PM
As anyone ever found anything to do with it?

Pilum defence.

You are always better off spending same OP budget on basic PD lasers, even if you fill fewer slots.

Nope. If damage of the single gun is enough to kill a missile, its better to have multiple damage sources.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 26, 2020, 01:01:11 PM
I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.
Yea I also feel similar, most weapons just feel meh without some skills, and even then they don't feel ''dangerous''. It's like when you see a ship with a HIL, Autopulse, Mjolnirs, Reapers, Assault chainguns and so on, you actually think ''guess i'll need to look out for that'' before the battle or as you see it coming. But most weapons are just either wet noodles or inaccurate flux hogs. They only ever seem dangerous when massed on stations. I get that not every weapon can be strong and always useful, but nerfing weapons that actually feel good to use is not the right way imo.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on February 26, 2020, 02:02:43 PM
I will just throw into all this that I feel the railgun is a pretty good "standard".  Maybe it's too powerful, but I think it highlights more how many weapons are just not up to snuff.  Railguns and Needlers competing for space ought to be differentiated, imo, by just making needlers way better at burst, and making railguns the "wear them down" option.
Yea I also feel similar, most weapons just feel meh without some skills, and even then they don't feel ''dangerous''. It's like when you see a ship with a HIL, Autopulse, Mjolnirs, Reapers, Assault chainguns and so on, you actually think ''guess i'll need to look out for that'' before the battle or as you see it coming. But most weapons are just either wet noodles or inaccurate flux hogs. They only ever seem dangerous when massed on stations. I get that not every weapon can be strong and always useful, but nerfing weapons that actually feel good to use is not the right way imo.

I think ideally every weapon should have its "i'm the best" spot.  One of the big areas for this, that allows for weak weapons, would normally be "I need 5000 of these". So a light motar might make sense if you're going to have a swarming fleet of 20 frigates, because it's cheap to get vs say a light autocannon.

Unfortunately the economy is kind of a mess, especially for ships/weapons, so scarcity rarely (if ever) limits you except in a few niche cases, and thus such weapons don't really shine and just feel like filler.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 26, 2020, 02:08:18 PM
I think ideally every weapon should have its "i'm the best" spot.  One of the big areas for this, that allows for weak weapons, would normally be "I need 5000 of these". So a light motar might make sense if you're going to have a swarming fleet of 20 frigates, because it's cheap to get vs say a light autocannon.

Unfortunately the economy is kind of a mess, especially for ships/weapons, so scarcity rarely (if ever) limits you except in a few niche cases, and thus such weapons don't really shine and just feel like filler.
YES! Just as weaker units in rts games fall off in late game, they can still be good in large numbers. Megas often says that 2 Light mortars are better than 1 LAG so there's at least some of that decision making in Starsector. The problem is other damage types and energy weapons as a whole (because you're always better with any beam PD other than Mining laser).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on February 26, 2020, 02:30:49 PM
I think ideally every weapon should have its "i'm the best" spot.  One of the big areas for this, that allows for weak weapons, would normally be "I need 5000 of these". So a light motar might make sense if you're going to have a swarming fleet of 20 frigates, because it's cheap to get vs say a light autocannon.

Unfortunately the economy is kind of a mess, especially for ships/weapons, so scarcity rarely (if ever) limits you except in a few niche cases, and thus such weapons don't really shine and just feel like filler.
YES! Just as weaker units in rts games fall off in late game, they can still be good in large numbers. Megas often says that 2 Light mortars are better than 1 LAG so there's at least some of that decision making in Starsector. The problem is other damage types and energy weapons as a whole (because you're always better with any beam PD other than Mining laser).
Yeah light motar isn't the best example, and it's way more obvious with ships (Condor vs Drover), but it's certainly a way weapons could be balanced that is pretty heavily underused right now.  I'd much prefer weapon/ship acquisition be a bit harder so that decisions (such as getting a commission or specing into industry for more salvage) matter more, as right now there's very few things that are actually hard to acquire in whatever number you need.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 26, 2020, 09:13:03 PM
... Antimatter blaster will always be taken by phase ships piloted by player because there is not much else those ships can use well.  As a general purpose assault weapon, it stinks.  The only reason it cost is somewhat justified is AI exploitation, which usually means outright paralyze a ship for twelve seconds after hitting its shield when its flux is nearly capped.  Kind of a lame reason.  If not for stupid tricks like that, it would be bad because its stats on paper are worse than IR Pulse Laser.

(... and further AMB discussion...)

I can't agree with this at all. The Antimatter Blaster is a highly useful strike tool in my arsenal. I'm a big fan of kitting a Wolf out with it, for instance. Doesn't have to be player-piloted, I find it does great work as a hit-and-run strike weapon. It's like a torpedo that costs a bunch of flux, but pays for itself in the ability to ignore PD fire. I've used it to great success on a particularly aggressive Sunder build too - dual Antimatter Blasters + High Energy Focus is a recipe for destruction.

Sure, it's good on phase ships. Lots of things are. I'm not sure why you would compare it to the IR Pulse Laser when they're very different weapons? One is a steady-fire assault weapon, one is a shock-and-awe strike weapon.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on February 26, 2020, 09:54:47 PM
AM blaster just builds up so much flux in your own ship. The AI will fire it into shields where it is actively hurting you in the flux war. I don't think it is very good on AI ships. My problem with high flux cost finishers is also that you frequently have to spend a lot of your flux capacity to put the enemy in a 'finishable' position meaning you have little left to use the finishing weapons. A lot of times in a fleet battle, you can easily put yourself in a more compromised position than you put the enemy.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 26, 2020, 10:42:40 PM
I really like the AM blaster on any ship capable of leveraging the cooldown of the weapon to their own benefit: IE when the weapon is on cooldown, the enemy cannot fire back. My list under AI command of ships that can pull it off are: Wolf, Medusa, Phase ships, Hyperion (but there are usually better choices), Paragon (fortress shield).

It is also excellent on any ship that can take advantage of situations where you DON'T need to trade flux (the enemy is already fluxed up from another ship, you can target the enemy's engines around the shield, etc). Ships under AI that can pull it off: Wolf, Medusa, Phase Ships, Hyperion. I might be missing a few, but on all those ships I mount AM blasters with large success.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 27, 2020, 06:39:03 AM
I don't see why anyone would try to use the antimatter blaster as a general purpose weapon and compare it to such weapons. There are plenty of other energy weapons to fulfil that role. Not to mention antimatter blaster is limited by ammo so you can't use it as as general purpose weapon anyways. Surely as a weapon instead of proclaiming it overcosted, you could increase its cost to see where the tipping point where you would stop using it. lets see. For antimatter Afflictor, it'll have to be something ridiculously high like 20 OP.  There aren't any alternatives for that afflictor playstyle of repeatable spike damage so that playstyle will simply disappear for the Afflictor. For Harbinger, as it has three other good alternatives in Heavy Blaster, Mining Blaster and Phase lance, it'll depend on preference, but lets say 12 OP. Underpriced the anitmatter blaster is not.
I say it is overpriced because outside of strikes from phase ships or overloading shields with it, I see no reason to use it.  Has ammo (no good for multi-round fights), horrible range (400), horribly slow rate-of-fire (missing hurts), massive flux spike(s), and even minor windup (no good for Hyperion with maybe a single frame to act between teleports without getting shot).  It is an awkward weapon that is the best at some special teams stuff (likely flagship only too) and bad at nearly anything else.  It is nearly as expensive as mining blaster.  I probably would not put it at 5, though.  It feels at the level of burst PD, so maybe 7 OP.  I do not think it is as versatile as mining blaster.  Can the AI use AM Blaster well?  AI seems incompetent with smaller phase ships.  Is there a good reason to use AM Blasters on more conventional ships the AI can use better, like say maybe Medusa or Aurora?

The only other viable small energy hard-flux option is IR Pulse Laser, which is mediocre except maybe on capitals.  (Aurora can use lots of IR Pulse Laser, but it is not as good as two heavy blasters and nothing else).  AM Blaster is even worse for brawling, and I certainly would not want to use it as PD if that is even possible.

I would only use AM Blaster on non-Doom phase ships, mostly because they cannot brawl.  (I would prefer old cloak to come back so phase ships can brawl with autocannons and assault guns, something AI can do.)  I guess I would use it on Scarab flagship, except Scarab stinks in 0.9a.  (It was great in 0.7.2a, though.)  Ever since invulnerability frames were removed from decloaking, I am not fond of AM Blaster on Afflictor because low range and health gives little room for error, and Afflictor can cheese fights with Reapers (for now).  For now, Harbinger flagship is the only ship I use AM Blasters with.  Mining Blaster and Phase Lances are options on Harbinger, but they are not as good as AM Blasters.  Phase Lance is competitive, but AM Blaster might be a bit better.
You say Antimatter Blaster is overpriced because it works very well in situations intended for its use and performs in cases outside of that? In that case every weapon is overpriced.

Wtf is brawling? Is that different from general purpose? Why would you see a weapon with massive 1400 damage, shoots once every 6 seconds, range 400 and then complain it's not like an IR Pulse laser and not a good PD? It's not even a PD weapon. It has an obvious use case and performs successfully within that usage as a strike weapon. It even has limited ammunition just to make sure you don't think of it as a general purpose weapon. Would you also say that Assault Chaingun is overpriced because it can't be used successfully outside of safety override builds? Or Tachyon lance because it can only produce soft flux? Or all the Kinetic weapons because they are poor at damaging armour? No of course not, as you can only compare them with the weapons within their own use. And so you must consider, does antimatter blaster in afflictor or in harbinger or in any other ship deserve to be cheaper? No it does not. Its cost can be risen in comparison.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 27, 2020, 08:17:14 PM
Easy Plantissue. Keep it civilized. This is a sharing of opinions, not a place for personal attacks.



Wtf is brawling? Is that different from general purpose?

Sorta? To my understanding, "brawling" is staying toe-to-toe with an enemy for a prolonged period of time, and usually involves tanking a bit of enemy fire on armour while you keep consistent fire down on them to pressure them. It's much more aggressive and daring than what I would consider "general purpose". Does that help?

It is also excellent on any ship that can take advantage of situations where you DON'T need to trade flux (the enemy is already fluxed up from another ship, you can target the enemy's engines around the shield, etc). Ships under AI that can pull it off: Wolf, Medusa, Phase Ships, Hyperion. I might be missing a few, but on all those ships I mount AM blasters with large success.

This is how I tend to use it, as a punishing blow to cripple an unshielded target - or overload a high-flux target. I don't use the AMB as a combat opener, but I guess you could depending on your competition? That being, if the flux cost is worth it for the damage output provided in a single shot. Against something like an Onslaught or Dominator that you've approached from behind, sure, open up with an AMB. For most situations though I like to have a target sweating before nailing them with the blaster. It couples well with things like Sabots for just that reason.

No matter what anyone says, I will always find the Antimatter Blaster an incredibly satisfying weapon to use. 8)

Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Serenitis on February 28, 2020, 12:11:41 AM
I think someone already gave the perfect description of the Antimatter Blaster: A PD immune torpedo.
It's an excellent weapon that's very good at what it does, and literally nothing else.
A simple Wolf with an AM Blaster in the nose and an otherwise standard loadout does a good enough job of poking holes in things if you want to play with this early on.

I don't get the hate for the Devastator though. It's not a weapon I've ever been disappointed with.
Maybe it comes from comparing it to the other large ballistics, which behave like assault rifles and machine guns.
Of course the Devastator is going to be disappointing if you're using it with that kind of expectation, because it can't reliably hit things at range. But if this is the case I'd like to suggest that maybe you're not thinking about it in the right way.
Devastator is a shotgun. The closer it is to its target, bet better it performs. The fact it can also pull double-duty as point defence makes it a very flexible weapon. Maybe not the best for any given situation, but a decent compromise between all of them.

Also, Safety Overrides has an interesting interaction with the Devastator; all the shells burst in almost the same place.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 28, 2020, 06:36:29 AM
I don't see where I have placed a personal attack on anyone.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on February 28, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
I find the Devastator to be too flux expensive to use as a PD weapon. It's not as accurate as a flak gun which makes it waste shots.

Otherwise you really don't need an anti-frigate weapon and the other HE large weapons have you covered for HE.

Really not for me unless you are doing some kinda "large is the only PD you can use" kinda challenge. Which does sound fun.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on February 28, 2020, 09:47:28 AM
Devastator for me is best at fending off smaller ships and providing finishing dps. The main place I would use it is on the backside of an asymmetric conquest. It also does have a quite high dps and decent damage per shot so if you get in close, it can be decent for finishing things. It has higher damage per shot and dps than a hephaestus.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 12:13:52 PM
I don't see where I have placed a personal attack on anyone.

Your last comment sounded very aggressive and my "argument radar" was pinging a warning.

Would you also say that Assault Chaingun is overpriced because it can't be used successfully outside of safety override builds? Or Tachyon lance because it can only produce soft flux? Or all the Kinetic weapons because they are poor at damaging armour? No of course not, as you can only compare them with the weapons within their own use. And so you must consider, does antimatter blaster in afflictor or in harbinger or in any other ship deserve to be cheaper? No it does not. Its cost can be risen in comparison.

If that wasn't intentional then I apologise, but perhaps it might be worth double-checking over your messages for tone before posting. I've seen you comment on a few things around the forums recently and a few of them have read somewhat aggressive. Tone is quite difficult to portray accurately in pure text, I find it takes a bit of finesse, so watch out for that in future. Just a bit of advice. ;)
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 28, 2020, 01:44:34 PM
Thanks for the advice. They were points of comparison. About how comparing a weapon based on a single standard would make all other weapons outside of that standard seem underpointed, so there would be no special reason to point out antimatter blaster in particular, but rather all other wepons. I don't regard it as aggressive. Do you think it is that I try to reply to every signle point megas has made? Or is it the question marks?
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 02:14:38 PM
Do you think it is that I try to reply to every signle point megas has made? Or is it the question marks?

I think a bit of both, the last few lines felt quite snappish. The listing of "would you also say X? And Y? And Z?" are almost like a challenge to disagree, y'know? And those questions being rhetorical came off as quite passive-aggressive (I know, I find myself falling into that trap a lot).

It's also worth bearing in mind that thread isn't about the discussion of individual weapon balance per se, it's for (as far as I can tell) people to share opinions on their least favourite weapons in the game (and why), presumably with the goal of finding a common trend towards particular unfavourable weapons. Don't stress out too much about people with different opinions - even if you believe their opinions to be factually incorrect, you can gladly try to correct them, but there's a point where you just have to agree to disagree and leave it there.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Grievous69 on February 28, 2020, 02:23:21 PM
Good thing others reminded me because I've been *** on Heavy burst laser as the worst energy medium and completely forgot about Ion pulser, that's how much I care about it. I can't remember ever using that on something, apart from testing the weapon when it came out. I think I put one on Aurora (front hardpoint), I was so damn disappointed, one of the few weapons that bring up the question ''why is this a thing?''. So yeah at least the Heavy burst laser has SOME use, even tho I hardly used it, but Ion pulser takes the cake.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 03:12:17 PM
Good thing others reminded me because I've been *** on Heavy burst laser as the worst energy medium and completely forgot about Ion pulser, that's how much I care about it. I can't remember ever using that on something, apart from testing the weapon when it came out. I think I put one on Aurora (front hardpoint), I was so damn disappointed, one of the few weapons that bring up the question ''why is this a thing?''. So yeah at least the Heavy burst laser has SOME use, even tho I hardly used it, but Ion pulser takes the cake.

Interesting. I quite enjoy the Ion Pulser. It's quite niche, for sure, but it does lend itself to energy-based SO builds fairly well. My personal usage of it extends to a Wolf armed with one, along with Sabots and an IR Pulse Laser for sustained damage, which I had moderate success with. The concept of the weapon I enjoy, so I can't say I find it "bad". However I admit I don't use it often, so perhaps there's something to be said about that. I think it's the range, I see it very much in the same category as the Assault Chaingun - which I use equally if not more rarely - in that it looks like it's designed for Safety Overrides and not much else. Phase ships (that can wield it) do well with it though.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on February 28, 2020, 03:17:39 PM
I find myself hesitant to use any ion weapon over more standard weapons.

I know the idea is that while ballistics have KE and HE damage guns (and frag), energy weapons have general purpose energy damage and ion damage as support. But I can't wrap my mind around simply not simply slapping on a tac laser or graviton beam instead.

Occasionally I'll use ion cannons due to not having much else to equip but that's that.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 28, 2020, 03:40:46 PM
Ion pulser is not completely pointless, but imo it fails at being a good SO weapon.
Low sustained dps, low damage against armor. Low efficiency against shields AND unable to bypass omni shields (need 1 fast projectile for that, not shower of lesser ones). Yet too expensive OP/flux/slot-wise to be mere annoyance to target. Also takes too much attention for something of so limited effect (you can't afford to safely autofire it due to flux spike and potential clip waste).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 28, 2020, 03:51:56 PM
Ion pulser has a role on fast ships that can bypass Shields using another ship as a distraction, and then there's Harbinger which can disable a Paragon from behind
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 06:00:05 PM
I'm not sure, I find the Ion Pulser's overall damage output quite respectable. It's only 75 non-EMP damage per shot (exactly halfway between the IR and regular Pulse Lasers), but its burst DPS is incredible. For 20 base shots (up to 30 with Expanded Mags) I think it's decent.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: pedro1_1 on February 28, 2020, 06:08:40 PM
I'm not sure, I find the Ion Pulser's overall damage output quite respectable. It's only 75 non-EMP damage per shot (exactly halfway between the IR and regular Pulse Lasers), but its burst DPS is incredible. For 20 base shots (up to 30 with Expanded Mags) I think it's decent.

The thing about ipn pulser is that's not a "DPS" weapon, but a "Remove this thing from the fight, so It can return fore" weapon, a Paragon that can't shot and can't move is about as good as a dead Paragon, it's pne of the reasons I use it so much on the Harbinger, since the ship can bypass Shields, and the weapon can remove the ship from combat
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 28, 2020, 06:22:54 PM
Emp disables don't last that long, while Ion Pulser equipped ship isn't likely to also carry other heavy weapons (missiles don't count since emp does not compromise enemy shield, you need something capable of chewing through shield too).
The only really good use for emp is to disable most guns on enemy ship in sync and vent in their face. Obviously, only player can do this.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 09:23:51 PM
The only really good use for emp is to disable most guns on enemy ship in sync and vent in their face. Obviously, only player can do this.

Engines though. ;) There's a lot to be said for the tactic of disabling a ship's engines so you can better position yourself (and your allies) around. Doubly effective against ships that have a mobility-based system, or otherwise rely on mobility to do well in a fight.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: SCC on February 28, 2020, 10:49:48 PM
I don't use Ion Pulser, because I don't use SO much at all. If I did, however, ion pulsers would be invaluable in making my ships more survivable, because a ship with all its weaponry disabled might as well not be there. You only ever need a single one, but it disables pretty much everything, if it hits the hull.
On the other hand, I have genuinely never used Heavy Burst Laser. I have used mining lasers, mining blasters and other crap weaponry, but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 28, 2020, 11:34:14 PM
I don't use Ion Pulser, because I don't use SO much at all.

And I rarely use it for the same reason. The Wolf build I mentioned was not an SO build though, if it helps.

On the other hand, I have genuinely never used Heavy Burst Laser. I have used mining lasers, mining blasters and other crap weaponry, but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.

I'm trying to think of a time I've used the Heavy Burst Laser or Paladin too, and it's not coming to me. ??? As far as medium point defense weapons go, the HBL kinda pales in comparison to Flak and Dual Flak - it's possible this fits the same "ballistic is better than energy" argument, but I'm not sure that's all there is to it.

There have been a few people calling out the HBL in this thread, and I really don't want to but I think I have to agree with them. Again, I can't put my finger on why, I just haven't ever found it desirable.

The Paladin is a very different kettle of fish though. That I hardly ever use because I hardly ever have the opportunity to use - that's on me because I'm a big fan of the early-game, so I don't dabble much in big capital-heavy fleets with Paragons and Odysseys etc. A large energy PD weapon has only limited ships it can really be utilized on by the player (just two in vanilla? (not counting stations or [REDACTED] of course)). Hehe, and no that's not an excuse for another ship with a large energy turret, but it's a highly niche weapon because of that.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on February 29, 2020, 12:12:56 AM
My issues with the HBL are that they are easily saturated, cost large amounts of flux, have poor sustained DPS, and poor efficiency. Fighters will flares will just ruin any ship that has them, as each one will dump ~1000 flux into the flares: integrated point defense AI is almost required to stop this from happening. But if I have IPDAI, I probably don't need to use the 11 OP, inefficient HBL when I could just use LRPD or burst pd.

Its a bit of a radical solution, but I would want to see burst PD and HBL converted to high dps, rapid fire frag burst beams. Would help with sparks and their armor melting ways as well!
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on February 29, 2020, 12:31:06 AM
Its a bit of a radical solution, but I would want to see burst PD and HBL converted to high dps, rapid fire frag burst beams. Would help with sparks and their armor melting ways as well!

Yeah, mod weapons like this totally supersede Burst lasers without being overall overpowered.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Serenitis on February 29, 2020, 05:24:03 AM
....but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.
Same.
The small Burst Laser is better for a lower cost (both OP and flux), so I always prefer to use small energy mounts for PD wherever gives adequate cover and leave the medium energy mounts for ship-to-ship guns.
Downsizing the mounts is also something that happens a fair bit for medium energy, just because the the HBL is so underwhelming when you want PD.

The Paladin is fairly unique in that it has possibly the most restrictive usage options of any weapon in the game.
It's completely pointless in a hardpoint.
Of the two ships that can realistically mount it in turrets (Paragon & Odyssey), neither can realy use it without seriously undergunning themselves and undermining the whole point of fielding a capital.
If you put it in the Paragon's turrets, you've reduced its firepower by 50%, and restricted what's left to whatever you can point the entire ship at.
If you put it in one of the Odyssey's port turrets you again reduce its firepower by 50%, and if you put it in the starboard turret it's more-or-less useless as that side is facing away from most of the threats.

Paladin is not a bad weapon because it doesn't perform, as it's actually very good at PD. There's just no real opportunity to use it.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Plantissue on February 29, 2020, 06:09:25 AM
Ion Pulsar isn't that it is a bad weapon in itself, but that there aren't really any ships with that can make use of it. In most cases any ship that can effectively mount an Ion Pulsar is better served by a Heavy Blaster or Phase Lance or Mining Blaster or Antimatter Blaster in that role. Safety override ships work because they are flux efficient but Ion Pulsar is not so they need another soure of damage. It'll have to be a player controlled ship so the ship doesn't waste the shots. A more reliable alternative is Ion beam.

I've used Heavy Burst Laser on a Conquest. It is the only mount with the right arc to shoot down missiles at certain angles. Mostly useful against Hurrican which the Conquest is uniquely vulnerable against.

Paladin PD that only really works on a ship with lots of appropriately placed large mounts. Its relatively high range (Higher than Plasma Cannon or Autopulse Laser) works against it as it will shoot at non-PD targets first.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Tackywheat1 on February 29, 2020, 03:14:22 PM
....but never HBL. Or Paladin PD.
Same.
The small Burst Laser is better for a lower cost (both OP and flux), so I always prefer to use small energy mounts for PD wherever gives adequate cover and leave the medium energy mounts for ship-to-ship guns.
Downsizing the mounts is also something that happens a fair bit for medium energy, just because the the HBL is so underwhelming when you want PD.

The Paladin is fairly unique in that it has possibly the most restrictive usage options of any weapon in the game.
It's completely pointless in a hardpoint.
Of the two ships that can realistically mount it in turrets (Paragon & Odyssey), neither can realy use it without seriously undergunning themselves and undermining the whole point of fielding a capital.
If you put it in the Paragon's turrets, you've reduced its firepower by 50%, and restricted what's left to whatever you can point the entire ship at.
If you put it in one of the Odyssey's port turrets you again reduce its firepower by 50%, and if you put it in the starboard turret it's more-or-less useless as that side is facing away from most of the threats.

Paladin is not a bad weapon because it doesn't perform, as it's actually very good at PD. There's just no real opportunity to use it.

Paladin is used in High tech Star Fortress drones :)
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on February 29, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
I don't think that counts from a "weapons the player can choose from" perspective.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: SCC on February 29, 2020, 11:09:22 PM
And Gargoyle is easiest defeated by letting it overflux itself by shooting Paladin, then finishing it quickly, before it dissipates too much flux. If anything, this confirms that Paladin PD is terrible.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Cyber Von Cyberus on March 01, 2020, 06:39:44 PM
Oh boy, opinions and complaining my two favourite things. (jk)
 
 -Anyways for small ballistic mounts I'd say the light mortar; their projectiles are slow and somewhat inaccurate, kind of easy to dodge them which is a big disadvantage in frigate Vs frigate battle where they'll see the most use. The light assault gun has the same range but is more reliable in my opinion, sadly these are the only two high explosive weapons for small mounts.
 -Small energy would be mining laser; the low damage makes it useless against most missiles, I'd rather spend the extra OP for a LRPD which in my opinion is the best energy PD along with the small burst laser or at the very least get a normal PD laser. A close second would've been the Tactical laser; seriously does that thing even work ? I've never seen it do anything remotely threatening to other ships, at least it makes for amazing pd if you have integrated point defence which is it's only saving grace.
 -For small missiles it would be the single Atropos; Atropos missiles in general feel like a slight downgrade of harpoons, they deal a bit more damage but they sacrifice 1 ammo and most of their tracking, they often feel very unreliable.

-Medium ballistics, you guessed it, Thumper; not even IPDAI can save this considering it is more expensive than a Flak cannon, Arbalest canon and Heavy mortar all of which are useful in their own roles.
-Medium energy, I'm not too sure, the Ion pulser actually seems like an interesting choice for fast frigates since heavy blasters tend to be too much for them. I'd say the Gravitron beam; it sounds decent but in practice you need at least two for ot to work well against any ships with decent shields and flux; the Ion beam I feel does a much better job at suppressing and you only need 1 of them.
 -Medium missiles, obviously the prox charge launcher, however a close second would be the Annihilator rocket pod; they just get shot down by PD so easily unless you can use them in large amounts and are extremely hard to aim if they are placed on a hardpoint, the Onslaught is the only ship I ever use them on and even then I wonder how Reapers or harpoons would do.

 -Large ballistic, I'm not too sure either, all of the weapons fill their niche very well even the storm needler which is a close range brawling weapon, I guess the devastator due to it's flux cost but even then I have to admit that it can clean up an entire area of missiles.
 -Large energy, Paladin PD; waaaay too flux hungry.
 -Large missile, Squall; I know some people will say the Cyclone Reaper launcher is unreliable and an overpriced version of the Typhoon reaper launcher but I absolutely despise the Squall, bad tracking doesn't do anything against armour it's only role is to sloooooowly build up flux on shields (which is defeated by flickering your shields) and in general I find it to be a very boring weapon.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Tackywheat1 on March 01, 2020, 08:25:27 PM
One thing is annihilators are highly effective at overwhelming high tech PD and combined with a steady stream of kinetic fire, allows something like an onslaught to keep up pressure
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 01, 2020, 08:34:23 PM
Annihilators are about pressure more than damage, the enemy is forced to keep their shields up, and even if only half get through, they will chew through armor and do decent damage. They're good on both onslaught and dominator IMO. I bet you could make some funky legion load outs too now that I think about it. Definitely not that great when you only have one pod, but I think they're the clear best choice on onslaughts and dominators so I would hardly call them the worst. Pilum is much worse IMO.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 01, 2020, 08:48:15 PM
Legion with 5x anni pods is downright scary. It doesn't last long, but it murders.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Goumindong on March 02, 2020, 12:48:53 AM
Light Mortar are really good for hunting larger ships. Though hampered by the presence of the assault chaingun in its current state. Before that change LM were the only source of “efficient” HE damage and had decent range at 600. Plus, with a cost of 2 they were able to splashed on whatever you wanted.

Sure you can get more accuracy out of a LAG and sure the HM hits harder. But LMs are still 75 explosive for 50 flux and 37.5 dps/OP. Better than LAG at any OP comparison. The Lasher and Centurion in particular really benefit from it.

The 4 LM, 2 med kin hammerhead was a staple before the advent of the new AC and is still a decent ship.

The real worst small weapon is the light autocannon. Worse flux efficiency than the dual... worse dps/OP than the dual... same accuracy profile.. not really any harder to shield flicker but harder to use to punish shield flickering
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Cyber Von Cyberus on March 02, 2020, 01:38:27 AM
Yeah, I had a bit of an infuriating experience with a slow ship and 2 annihilator pods, I guess that clouded my judgement a bit. Pilums are definitely the 2nd worse.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 02, 2020, 08:54:56 PM
Pilums are definitely the 2nd worse.

This guy hasn't seen a certain Pilum spam video... ;)

Seriously though, Pilums might feel crappy on execution, but don't forget that they're A) incredibly cheap, and B) insane when you start stacking them.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 02, 2020, 09:01:54 PM
Seriously though, Pilums might feel crappy on execution, but don't forget that they're A) incredibly cheap, and B) insane when you start stacking them.

And also very cheap to counter, because they are slow and have no missile hp to speak of. Single PD laser shuts down 1-2 Pilum launchers. Actual PD, like paired dual flaks can stop any amount of them (as long as ship doesn't stupidly charge right into Pilum swarm, which AI may do). Even meager efficiency Pilums enjoy comes from AI flaws, rather than Pilum inherent stats.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 02, 2020, 11:52:22 PM
[RE Pilums...]

And also very cheap to counter, because they are slow and have no missile hp to speak of. Single PD laser shuts down 1-2 Pilum launchers. Actual PD, like paired dual flaks can stop any amount of them (as long as ship doesn't stupidly charge right into Pilum swarm, which AI may do). Even meager efficiency Pilums enjoy comes from AI flaws, rather than Pilum inherent stats.

Discount, for a moment if you will, the concept of what happens when a Pilum hits something. Think instead, what happens when a Pilum gets near something. Yeah, it gets shot down by PD. But Pilums come in packs - threes, minimum - and that's a couple of seconds for a single PD weapon to be occupied. Even at that lowest level, that's the difference between a torpedo being knocked out or getting through a PD screen. When you have a couple of Pilum launchers on the field - especially if some of the wielding ships have Fast Missile Racks - even a small "deathball" of Pilums can respectably occupy a ship and its point defence.

Even if no missiles connect with their target, Pilums do a great job at distracting enemy defences and forcing them to make tricky decisions in the heat of battle. A good wave of the missiles does wonders at ratcheting up the tension on the AI, and makes them do things like fire PD in the wrong direction, point their shield elsewhere, or burn a mobility/defensive ship system prematurely. Even something as simple as forcing a ship to fire its PD and lose its zero-flux engine boost has its tactical advantages.

So, yeah, Pilums look pretty bad. I recommend looking at them in a different light: not as damage dealers, but as cheap pressure/distraction weapons that have the advantage of basically being omnipresent.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 03, 2020, 12:19:56 AM
Sure, that works to some extent. Against the player, Pilum wall is at best a delay, never a real threat. AI allowing it to become a threat is 90% AI problem.

Point is - Pilums are not cheap compared to their counters. They are neutralized by less than half OP spent on PD. In fact a lot less when it's something optimized like IPDAI IR pulse or Dual Flaks + AC3. Half is best case for Pilums.
Pilum spam is simply weaker than alternative strategies, even if it can be made functional to some extent.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on March 03, 2020, 05:43:21 AM
Pilums are definitely far more deadly against phase ships. Their sheer persistence and long life can easily bully around phase ships, and phase ships tend to have weak PD in general. The damage of a single pilum can easily cut open a serious hole in armor. In fact, most of my incoming DOOM damage typically comes from my own mines (  ::) ) or Pilums.

Obviously a slow fragile missile isn't going to do much against a ship with any serious PD. The amount of missile defense required to knock down Pilums is far less than the PD required to face down strike craft, so if you can shoot down fighters, you can shoot down Pilums no problem.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 03, 2020, 05:55:00 AM
Pilums are definitely far more deadly against phase ships...

Against AI phase ships. To player-piloted Afflictor Pilums don't mean much, there are always enough holes in Pilum coverage for 2 seconds you spend unphased near enemies.

Phase AI is completely distracted by any missiles. At some point I recorded a video of 2xCobra Driver killing an AI Afflictor. Cobras can't hit it!... Yet AI spent all it's PPT/CR 'dodging' them instead of properly attacking the Drover.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcaOzx0YA7w
[close]
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on March 03, 2020, 06:07:03 AM
Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 03, 2020, 06:15:19 AM
You just pick targets where Pilum swarm is currently thinnest. This does mean some extra CR waste, but not too much.
Pilums and fighters can be 'herded' - attack a target on one corner of  enemy formation and as missiles/fighters converge on you go to the opposite end of enemy formation.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Tartiflette on March 03, 2020, 06:22:37 AM
Pilums start very weak but have the best scalability with number. Similarly to beams, there is a threshold beyond which they become unstoppable.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: oorek on March 03, 2020, 09:04:33 AM
hard disagree on storm needlers being bad

they are godlike on conquests, in concert with some assault chainguns
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 03, 2020, 09:14:54 AM
I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on March 03, 2020, 11:01:50 AM
I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.
They feel somewhat like piranha's in that you're supposed to use them as a cheap but efficient alternative and hit a critical mass.  I generally load them on my piranha carrying condors, mass them, and then go cap/station hunting.  They're obviously pretty bad vs frigates, but with enough of them on the filed you really screw with the enemy AI, and the sustained pressure isn't nothing.

That said they could probably use a small buff, although i'm not sure what.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 03, 2020, 08:55:58 PM
I think Pilums are very weak. If you have that many medium missile slots, filling them with harpoons is much more deadly.

Instantaneously, sure. But over time Pilums can clock up higher overall damage.

And don't forget my last comment, where the point of Pilums is not to actually hit anything, but to get near enough to confuse or scare enemy ships.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 04, 2020, 06:12:00 AM
Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.

Nope, player-piloted phase ship can handle any amount of Pilums without significant efficiency loss.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1fF21o0Ntc
[close]

Maxed out character Afflictor vs 20 ECCM + Racks Pilum spamming Falcons (+Talons hangar and Swarmers). Even for no skills Afflictor (not on video) real obstacles are Talons and Swarmers, not Pilums per se.
Also, overspammed Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Linnis on March 04, 2020, 11:51:03 AM
Pilums are useless vs the player. But it works well versus the AI in large numbers, add in fighters and its even better. The problem is pilums have trouble catching up with enemies when you get a good kill rate going and thus become useless again.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Eji1700 on March 04, 2020, 05:05:01 PM
Quote
Against AI phase ships.
Not really. Pilums can place significant pressure a player phase ship as well. Most missiles can be dodged once and it's over, but pilums have to be avoided over and over. Even if it's survivable, it's still an obstacle that other missiles don't provide.

Nope, player-piloted phase ship can handle any amount of Pilums without significant efficiency loss.

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1fF21o0Ntc
[close]

Maxed out character Afflictor vs 20 ECCM + Racks Pilum spamming Falcons (+Talons hangar and Swarmers). Even for no skills Afflictor (not on video) real obstacles are Talons and Swarmers, not Pilums per se.
Also, overspammed Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.


1. That appears to be the mod only afflictor yes?
2. A maxed out character I'm assuming means relevant pilot skills?
3. Any fleet lacking lasers (ion, tac, whatever) is poorly equipped to handle afflictors.  The point of the pilums is to force the phase, not deal the damage, and it does that repeatedly and quite well.  If any of those ships had lasers to punish you when you came out of phase, they'd probably never kill you, but it'd be a hell of a lot harder to pick them off, adn you'd probably be losing your fleet in the meantime.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 04, 2020, 08:45:18 PM
1. It's cabal Afflictor, but difference is really small. Extra 3 OP and 5% bonuses to some stats.
2. My standard endgame build. All personal and fleetwides I consider important, but not literally every personal skill.
3. Point was to demonstrate uselessness of Pilums. Yes, just putting Tac lasers on them would force longer disengages to vent (at least after I spent armor) , making me run out of CR before killing all 20. Though it would be more or less same with or without Pilums.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Aereto on March 05, 2020, 04:26:46 PM
Pilums are useless vs the player. But it works well versus the AI in large numbers, add in fighters and its even better. The problem is pilums have trouble catching up with enemies when you get a good kill rate going and thus become useless again.
Indeed. The Pilums are less about dealing damage, and more about maintaining space superiority along with fighters. They act like mobile contact mines and does the job better than proximity charge launchers. Beam weapons are the primary means to defeat any phase ship (especially beam burst lasers like phase lance).

Pilums against the player is only more effective with phase ships, as they need to weave in between pilum waves to surface and attack or vent. Worse so when fighters are tracking. That will require support from allied ships to deal with the pilum spam.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Serenitis on March 06, 2020, 05:30:52 AM
Pilums cause notable amount of friendly fire.
Not once in any of the numerous instances of using Pilum carpets have I ever seen this.

Also: (https://i.imgur.com/ywktqMI.png?1)
That is all.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: TaLaR on March 06, 2020, 05:36:22 AM
Not once in any of the numerous instances of using Pilum carpets have I ever seen this.

Well, in above video at least 2 Falcons were finished off by Pilums, and few others were damaged. Pilums accumulation above the enemy formation like that is unlikely unless they try to target player-controlled phase frigate of course.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on March 06, 2020, 09:17:28 AM
I'm surprised that the pilums actually explode and deal damage at the end of their life. How else would they be doing friendly damage? I thought they would fizzle out like reapers.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 06, 2020, 11:32:22 AM
I believe post end of life missiles/torpedoes all have a 50% explosion chance, though I'm not certain. I know that Reapers can sometimes explode after they flame out, so be careful...
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: MesoTroniK on March 06, 2020, 06:40:51 PM
All missiles have a 50% chance to disarm when the engine fizzles out at and of life. Except for I believe Squalls (and mod missiles using the same AI type as it) will always "hit" in that scenario but not 100% sure off the top of my head would need to be tested.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Igncom1 on March 09, 2020, 01:04:06 PM
So what is the Thumper actually good at?

It's got around 500 frag dps, 700 range, and 150 flux per second.

But when compared to a single barrelled flak that has 200 frag fps, 500 range, and a 50 flux dps along with it being a designated PD weapon so it will actively shoot at missiles with it's aoe shells, the thumper seems like a makeshift bad trade.

It fires a stream of bullets sure, but that seems kinda naff vs aoe flak shells. It it uses three times the flux per second to put out two and a half times the dps. It's got range which I suppose adds up but it's also not a point defence weapon, directly anyway.

So what's it do? What is it for other then as pirate trash? It only does 125 dps vs shields and armour. A light mortar only does 150 dps vs armour I guess? But that's a small HE weapon and the cheapest available. An IR Pulse Laser does 152 dps, but again that's a small energy weapon. I suppose it DOES do more armour damage then a arbalest auto-cannon but not even half of it's anti-shield capacity.

Even as a poor stand it it just seems too expensive to bother using over just using the wrong weapon for the job. And for 9 OP no less!

 :o anybody else figure this weapon out? As even small weapons seem to basically be better then it, let along other medium contemporaries.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 09, 2020, 04:37:46 PM
Its... pretty bad yeah. It can sneak in a burst against bare hull simply because its otherwise so bad the player might be ignoring it?
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on March 09, 2020, 06:22:32 PM
Thumpers are actually pretty effective against light armor, and the salvo of 20x100 (20x25 against shields or armor) is not-inconsequential (that's 500 hard flux to a shield). And flux-cheap, which is one of the hidden strengths of generalist frag weapons; if you have more medium slots than your flux can handle, slap a Thumper or two in there; you have other weapons (perhaps HVDs or Maulers) to crack armor and stress shields, and the Thumper can fill in for short-range DPS at a pleasantly low flux cost.

Once armor is stripped, high DPS and flux efficiency are useful traits in a brawl, and they really are ubiquitous. It's a decent second choice to a lot of things.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 09, 2020, 06:32:37 PM
Armor never gets completely stripped though, so you're never actually getting the list dps (I'm actually not sure how the math works with that, so I'd like to hear from someone more knowledgable). It's also important to remember that shooting a weapon essentially does 'self damage' by building up flux in your own ship, so inefficiency vs shields is very bad, especially on low and mid tech ships that have worse flux stats. I don't think the thumper is worth using ever.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 09, 2020, 07:10:14 PM
Hmm, I think the anti hull formula is going to be:

(Frag Damage)*(Anti-Armor/(anti-armor + armor))

IE the frag part does full damage, but the reduction ratio is determined with the armor piercing abilities. I'm not 100% on this, but I think its close.

For a 500 armor destroyer stripped of armor, IE 5% residual = 25 effecting armor

20 x 100 * (25/(25+25)) = 20 x 50 or half DPS.

So its not bad against bare hull, but even going up against stripped destroyers its already 50%. Impact mitigation 1 (150 extra armor that apparently does count for minimums, whoops) really messes with it though (it also really messes with kinetics).

[Edit] Though thats still 1000 burst hull damage. If the player isn't expecting it and has shields down, that can be game over!
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 09, 2020, 08:35:16 PM
The thing is that it's very bad against stuff with enough hull that you would want extra hull dps (thicc capitals and cruisers) because they also have lots of armor and it's also bad against officers with armor skills. It's basically bad in all the places where you really need some more dps/burst, and its fine in place where you can already easily kill the enemy (low armor frigates and destroyers).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on March 10, 2020, 11:50:01 AM
(Frag Damage)*(Anti-Armor/(anti-armor + armor))

Here, this is as far as I got with the armor formulas (now enter your own numbers!):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlC2ZkiuB0fs5VSDXsmxJy30uRqqZ6oWCQ0ifsvUS9c/edit#gid=0

The basic formula is something like:
Damage = DMG*Type * (DMG*Type)/(DMG*Type+armor)
The armor reduction chooses the weakest of DMG*type / (DMG*Type+armor) vs. 85% reduction cap. Armor chooses the strongest of (5%+Impact Mitigation 1), or current armor strength. I don't know how low armor works, but even a single point of leftover armor can absorb a ton of kinetic or frag damage.

Damage type gets counted TWICE, once for armor strength and again for armor damage. The 25% frag damage multiplier renders it practically useless even against the thinnest armor, and extremely weak against 5% armor. The flat +150 armor will basically leave you always armor capped against frag damage, even with 0 armor plates.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 10, 2020, 01:34:24 PM
That looks right - in the case above though its anti-hull, IE the armor is already stripped, so the "type" is different inside and outside of the damage reduction fraction. Outside it is 100% (frag vs hull) and inside is 25% (frag vs armor).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: bobucles on March 10, 2020, 05:50:48 PM
Yeah, that would match what I've been seeing. The Ship damage is either against hull or against armor and uses the appropriate type for that. I don't know how damage is divided between armor tiles and bare hull, it's black magic to me. The second multiplier for armor reduction always uses the anti armor attribute. Impact mitigation 1 ends up supremely good here because it will double or triple your hull against kinetic or frag damage, and will put a serious dent in most minor HE hits as well. The difference in weapon performance can be night and day against IM1 and that could skew results.

Given the current damage mechanics, I don't really see why Fragmentation multipliers are half of everything else. It seems to me that it should have 200% anti hull and 50% armor/shield, with DPS in half so it can be fairly compared to everything else. At least the math works out the same.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 11, 2020, 10:48:46 AM
I was recently quite happy with the performance of the Squall on a Legion XIV I recovered as part of a mixed Squall/Hurricane. It wasn't the best weapon by itself, but it saturated PD, kept shields raised, and forced targets to dodge sideways while under bomber and HVD/Mauler fire. And on cruisers+ it does decent shield damage as well. I just wish the AI wouldn't fire it against frigates.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Daynen on March 11, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Thing about pilums is they're not weapons, per se; they're herding tools.  The enemy tends to go where the pilums are not if they have the opportunity; with a swarm of pilums on the field you have a good chance to flank the enemy and/or push them to a corner of the field where they have trouble running away.  If some pilums hit and deal damage that's great; if not they constantly apply a bit of push to the AI's positioning, helping you corral them in or at the very least discourage some of the enemy's own flankers.

The thumper is never going to be a better weapon than anything else for its slot, period.  It's not supposed to be.  It's the economy weapon for its class--cheap to build, repair, mount and sustain.  It's a filler when you're trying to keep costs down OR, if it happens to be your style, it's great for making cheap, tanky junkers where you want to spend your OP on defenses instead of weapons but still need a throwaway ship to be a credible threat to things that turn their back.  If your income is cozy enough to afford better stuff and you actually care about the welfare of your ships then the thumper isn't for you.  It's also a reasonable choice on a smaller vessel that can mount it but can't handle the flux for anything better.

Okay actually I lied.  The thumper might still be a better choice than flaks...at least it can actually hit things. :P
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Thaago on March 11, 2020, 04:53:23 PM
But... flaks are one of the best anti-missile weapons in the game and have AoE, so even when firing at flares they will hit missiles/fighters near them. I'm confused.

I think if I was ever tempted to mount a Thumper I'd just mount a heavy mortar or Arbalest instead. Both are also extremely cheap, but they are decent at their jobs (Heavy Mortar is downright good).
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Goumindong on March 11, 2020, 06:04:31 PM
If the Thumper was continuous fire instead of burst it would be good to OK against fighters/bombers.

Its damage efficiency looks good but is actually very bad. .83 dmg/flux vs hull and armor at 25 penetration... that is bad. A pulse laser, a weapon everyone loves to hate, is .9 shield/armor with 100 hit strength... but it also has 33.3 dps/OP while the thumper has 13.9. So in order to perform like a pulse laser you need to run a 13.8 OP deficit compared to the Pulse equipped ship.

It does OK against structure but the only ships that have enough structure to matter with regards to this mind of thing are huge and therefore have significant armor as well. A Heavy Motar vs a hammerhead is doing (.61, [email protected], .995)(shield, armor, hull) with 31.4 dps/OP vs hull. And its a cheaper weapon per OP.

Now sure the mortar is innacurate like woah. But the thumper isnt much better.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Lucky33 on March 11, 2020, 06:18:10 PM
Thumper is not cheap in any way.

It has base value of 700, 9 OP and even 600 instantaneous flux cost.

When I said that empty small energy mount is better I wasnt joking.
Title: Re: So let's try to find the worst weapon on vanilla
Post by: Goumindong on March 11, 2020, 06:22:16 PM
Yea. Thumper could go down to like 5 OP per mount without a lot of trouble. And/or could see a reduction in its recoil/increase in target leading and be made continuous fire.