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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: StarScum on February 08, 2020, 10:35:23 AM

Title: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: StarScum on February 08, 2020, 10:35:23 AM
What are some tips for fitting high tech ships? I find that compared to the gun-heavy low tier ships I have trouble getting them to kill anything because they are so comparatively fragile and lasers either don't do hard flux or are short range and put my ships in danger.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Grievous69 on February 08, 2020, 10:38:34 AM
Yea the thing with them is you either have to put missiles to give them an edge in fights (they're good on high tech ships since they're usually fast) or just play opportunistic and try to go in when someone is high on flux. If you have a fleet full of high tech ships the best tip I can give you is not to go crazy with beams.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Goumindong on February 08, 2020, 12:24:26 PM
Beams tend to be support weapons

Non beam Energy weapons tend to be very high flux so watch out for overgunning.

Ships with better than 1 flux/damage tend to not like generating soft flux unless theyve cracked an opponents shields and high tech ships tend tohave better than 1 f/d shields. So try toget “weapon flux + shieldupkeep” under flux dissipation (PD weapons and range deliniated weapons can go higher)
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: StarScum on February 08, 2020, 01:24:43 PM
I think I'll just keep it simple and stick to tactical lasers and pulse lasers and then branch off from there.

Only problem is these supposedly common weapons are quite difficult to find...
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: jwarper on February 10, 2020, 02:44:22 PM
If you are going purely high-tech you have to take a different approach. 

Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Daynen on February 11, 2020, 01:01:15 AM
Load up your Sunders with gravitons and high intensity lasers.    Max out your flux dissipation at all costs.  No enemy will DARE flicker their shields.  Then just spread out further than their shields can cover and ENJOY THE LASER CIRCUS.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: KCR on February 11, 2020, 02:16:28 AM
But Sunder is a midline destroyer.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Grievous69 on February 11, 2020, 02:26:10 AM
But Sunder is a midline destroyer.
Only thing that makes it midline is meh shields and mobility. 2 mediums and 1 large energy on a destroyer that has HEF system definitely makes it seem like high-tech.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Plantissue on February 11, 2020, 07:21:03 AM
Probably better that the OP says what specific ships he want advice for fitting rather than the generalised "high tech ships". Does anybody have trouble with getting tempests, shrikes, medusas, auroras, paragons to kill anything? I don't have any trouble getting these high tech ships to kill anything. Their weapons work well enough.

Sunder is midline as it's classified as such, and as such shouldn't be part of a discussion on high tech ships but I don't particularily care either way.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Mondaymonkey on February 11, 2020, 01:03:25 PM
1. Try "Shield conversion-front". Yes, i know why omni is better and blah-blah-blah. +100% in coverage, + 100% raising speed, -50% flux upkeep. It is an "accelerated shields", "stabilized shields" and "extended shields" in one bottle for a minor OP price. Does not work on all high-tech ships, but fit many of them. Was tested on tempest, medusa, aurora, odyssey and paragon. Works.

2. Some smaller crafts does not need a "hardened shields". Why? Coefficient are multiplicative. Some hight tech ships already has good damage-to-flux ratio, so improving it won`t help a lot, while eating a lot of OP. That is mostly said for medusa, shrike and tempest. Larger ships DO need a "hardened shields".

3. You need dissipation more than capacity.

4. Beams may not be a good idea to spam everywhere. Still using them can improve survivability, especially with an "advanced optics". But that means a team work of distraction and attack crafts, solo-beams won`t kill a lot. Except of tachs and phase lance, but they are not-that-flux-efficient and can overflow yours capacitors faster than enemy fire.

5. Sometimes you do not need to install rockets at all. Most of the rockets are single use, or to weak to make a damage. As high-tech ships are designed for longtime battles (if not phase ships), their few (and small) missile mounts does not help a lot, but eats OP that could be used as extra flux dissipation or additional hullmod. Astral and shrike are exception. And phase ships of course.

6. High-tech crafts have few possibilities to mount ballistic. Try needlers to crush enemy`s shields. Energy mounts are really bad at this because of bad flux-to-damage ratio or low DPS.

7. "Larger" are not always "better". There are not so big diversity of energetic weapons. Sometimes it is better to mount small weapon on a middle-sized mount or medium-sized weapon on a large mount. Or even don`t mount anything to spare some OP for dissipation.

8. Autopulse laser, ion pulser and burst lasers of all sizes DOES get benefits from "expanded magazines". May be extremely useful on short, but devastating strikes. Useless on long sustain battles, though.

9. Of course do not forget to install ITU, solar shielding and other good stuff.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Igncom1 on February 11, 2020, 01:53:39 PM
If I recall hightech ships have a smaller CR timer, whatever it is called, then midline and low tech ships.

In that sense they can't be deployed for as long as those other ships can, making the idea of fitting them with missiles and antimatter blasters more appealing as they won't run out long before they need to retreat anyway.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Aereto on February 11, 2020, 02:03:22 PM
Spoiler
1. Try "Shield conversion-front". Yes, i know why omni is better and blah-blah-blah. +100% in coverage, + 100% raising speed, -50% flux upkeep. It is an "accelerated shields", "stabilized shields" and "extended shields" in one bottle for a minor OP price. Does not work on all high-tech ships, but fit many of them. Was tested on tempest, medusa, aurora, odyssey and paragon. Works.

2. Some smaller crafts does not need a "hardened shields". Why? Coefficient are multiplicative. Some hight tech ships already has good damage-to-flux ratio, so improving it won`t help a lot, while eating a lot of OP. That is mostly said for medusa, shrike and tempest. Larger ships DO need a "hardened shields".

3. You need dissipation more than capacity.

4. Beams may not be a good idea to spam everywhere. Still using them can improve survivability, especially with an "advanced optics". But that means a team work of distraction and attack crafts, solo-beams won`t kill a lot. Except of tachs and phase lance, but they are not-that-flux-efficient and can overflow yours capacitors faster than enemy fire.

5. Sometimes you do not need to install rockets at all. Most of the rockets are single use, or to weak to make a damage. As high-tech ships are designed for longtime battles (if not phase ships), their few (and small) missile mounts does not help a lot, but eats OP that could be used as extra flux dissipation or additional hullmod. Astral and shrike are exception. And phase ships of course.

6. High-tech crafts have few possibilities to mount ballistic. Try needlers to crush enemy`s shields. Energy mounts are really bad at this because of bad flux-to-damage ratio or low DPS.

7. "Larger" are not always "better". There are not so big diversity of energetic weapons. Sometimes it is better to mount small weapon on a middle-sized mount or medium-sized weapon on a large mount. Or even don`t mount anything to spare some OP for dissipation.

8. Autopulse laser, ion pulser and burst lasers of all sizes DOES get benefits from "expanded magazines". May be extremely useful on short, but devastating strikes. Useless on long sustain battles, though.

9. Of course do not forget to install ITU, solar shielding and other good stuff.
[close]

Front Shield Conversion also helps with dealing with the classic pincer attacks, especially for ships that fare better keeping their shields up more than others, i.e. Paragon.

As for dissipation over capacity, high-tech ships that do not normally fire weapons or go frontline in combat, or are phase ships are the opposite. Especially phase ships to maximize allowed phase time and outphase other phase ships. Unless that dissipation priority is for faster phase time regen in between phase cloaks, akin to a ship in a bullet hell shooter.

Beams are great at sustaining pressure and quickly punishing unshielded targets, but very weak to shields due to soft-flux. Laser shots are the ones that actually put load on shields at the expense of not being flux efficient. Plasma Cannons and the like are great, but must be used prudently, especially charge types like autopulse and ion pulsers, even with expanded mags.

ITUs are especially useful with capitals and some cruisers, but some are better off without it when they can close in and use the points somewhere else. Solar shielding is great when trying to conserve supplies in the face of environmental hazards, and when facing high-tech fleets that love energy weapons.

As a note, when it comes to combat readiness retention past peak performance, Hegemony low tech ships are best at that field, as they take the most time until peak performance when compared to ships of similar sizes. Malfunctioning ships are much easier targets, especially when lured into a kite match with limited damage, making their retreat less successful. Phase ships has the shortest in a technical sense because time goes faster with them.

If I recall hightech ships have a smaller CR timer, whatever it is called, then midline and low tech ships.

In that sense they can't be deployed for as long as those other ships can, making the idea of fitting them with missiles and antimatter blasters more appealing as they won't run out long before they need to retreat anyway.

Like what Ign said as I typed.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: NephilimNexus on February 11, 2020, 05:44:35 PM
A note on phase ships: If you can cram in enough flux vents and put in a good officer, it is possible to have your flux dispersion end up higher than your phasing cost, which means that not only can you phase out indefinitely but actually continue to drop flux while phased.  Now fit yourself with some long-range alpha strike type weapons and you've basically got a Romulan warbird, able to appear, unleash a firestorm in a hurry, then fade back out while your weapons recharge and your flux goes back down to almost zero.  In the right hands such a ship is pure terror on the enemy.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Thaago on February 11, 2020, 08:08:50 PM
A note on phase ships: If you can cram in enough flux vents and put in a good officer, it is possible to have your flux dispersion end up higher than your phasing cost, which means that not only can you phase out indefinitely but actually continue to drop flux while phased.  Now fit yourself with some long-range alpha strike type weapons and you've basically got a Romulan warbird, able to appear, unleash a firestorm in a hurry, then fade back out while your weapons recharge and your flux goes back down to almost zero.  In the right hands such a ship is pure terror on the enemy.

Are you sure about this? Being in phase should build up hard flux, and hard flux cannot be vented while phased.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: intrinsic_parity on February 11, 2020, 08:12:18 PM
Maybe with the 10% had flux dissipation skill and a bunch of vents you could do it? I've never tried.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: TimeDiver on February 11, 2020, 08:30:04 PM
A note on phase ships: If you can cram in enough flux vents and put in a good officer, it is possible to have your flux dispersion end up higher than your phasing cost, which means that not only can you phase out indefinitely but actually continue to drop flux while phased.  Now fit yourself with some long-range alpha strike type weapons and you've basically got a Romulan warbird, able to appear, unleash a firestorm in a hurry, then fade back out while your weapons recharge and your flux goes back down to almost zero.  In the right hands such a ship is pure terror on the enemy.

Are you sure about this? Being in phase should build up hard flux, and hard flux cannot be vented while phased.
Maybe by taking 3 points in Defensive Systems to allow 10% venting of hard flux while shields are up? Not sure if that bonus applies to being phased, though.

EDIT: Didn't see intrinsic_parity's edit to their post before submitting my own.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: TaLaR on February 11, 2020, 08:34:27 PM
 Nope, infinite phase is impossible. First of all hard flux dissipation skill doesn't even apply to phase ships, they get 4x cloak instead.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Lucky33 on February 11, 2020, 09:14:47 PM
A note on phase ships: If you can cram in enough flux vents and put in a good officer, it is possible to have your flux dispersion end up higher than your phasing cost, which means that not only can you phase out indefinitely but actually continue to drop flux while phased.  Now fit yourself with some long-range alpha strike type weapons and you've basically got a Romulan warbird, able to appear, unleash a firestorm in a hurry, then fade back out while your weapons recharge and your flux goes back down to almost zero.  In the right hands such a ship is pure terror on the enemy.

No, its not possible. Flux vents dont affect flux build-up while in phase.

Defensive Systems 3 affect flux build-up by slowing it down by third due to better time acceleration. However you still cant dissipate it.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: StarScum on February 11, 2020, 10:36:21 PM
I loaded up an Aurora with sabots, torpedoes and missile racks and it ***. Hard.

I think I've gotten the hang of high tech ships. I think its important to use missiles where you can to conserve flux for better energy weapons and shields.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: FooF on February 12, 2020, 05:14:17 PM
High-tech ships work best with having parity between flux dissipation and expenditure, IMO. Most high tech ships have superior flux capacity and shield efficiency meaning that if you can fire indefinitely without dropping shields, you'll win the flux war. Once a ship is flux capped, you'll start doing damage to armor/hull and they can't fire back. However, the trade-off is that your overall DPS will likely be far below low-tech/midline ships with ballistics. You'll win a sustained fight but sometimes the alpha-strike potential is too much.

That's why high-tech tend to be more maneuverable. You might have to get in closer and stay there but you can engage/disengage at-will.

One of my favorite piloted ships is an Aurora with a ton of Sabots, a Reaper Launcher and Medium Harpoon, a Heavy Blaster and Phase Lance along with a few IR Pulses and Ion Cannon. It's flux neutral even with shields up and it can alpha-strike extremely well with all the missiles. Even when I run out of missiles, it can still duke it out with the remaining energy weapons. This is a non-SO variant so longevity in fights isn't usually an issue but it still hits near 300 speed with Plasma Jets, making it faster than most frigates.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: bobucles on February 13, 2020, 06:16:07 AM
Quote
No, its not possible. Flux vents dont affect flux build-up while in phase.
To expand on this, phase cloaking generates Hard Flux, which blocks venting while the phase cloak is up. It is perfectly possible (and extremely useful) to cool off soft flux during the cloak. In fact, you should only stay uncloaked to exclusively remove hard flux. Try to vent off the hard flux before generating a huge surge of soft flux (E.G. antimatters) and take advantage of the time accelerated soft flux recovery during the cloak. You'll spend less time exposed and vulnerable overall.

Defense systems 3 provides an ability to cool off hard flux at 0.1x your vent rating. Soft flux is always prioritized first, and it'll never surpass hard flux generation, however the reduction in hard flux is very potent. For example, take a Doom with 1000 venting and 500 base cloak upkeep. Defense systems 1 reduces the upkeep by 25%, requiring 375 upkeep (33% longer). Defense systems 3 will allow an additional 1000*0.1 => 100 hard flux deletion, providing 375-100 => 275 upkeep (81% longer!). Not a bad deal at all.

If you're feeling pretty feisty, consider the monitor hull mod which allows 0.5x hard flux recovery. Mod it to a phase ship and watch the world burn.  ;D
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Plantissue on February 13, 2020, 06:36:38 AM
Defence System skill 3 is 10% hard flux dissipation while shields are active. Phase ships do not have shields.

The skill is useful due to the phase cloak time acceleration but it doesn't do what you think it does.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Megas on February 13, 2020, 07:18:12 AM
Defensive Systems 3 for phase ships is generally bad.  With 4x speed, they burn through PPT faster and lose the endurance game faster against enemy phase ships.  The only time it may be useful is Harbinger playership that desperately needs more speed to outmaneuver enemy ships like a phase frigate.

I definitely do not want Defensive Systems 3 on an officer assigned to a Doom.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: TaLaR on February 13, 2020, 07:29:10 AM
Yes, DS3 on phase is a problem vs other phase ships. But I find it still worth using since it makes bypassing shields a lot easier (larger opportunity windows).

PPT spending is not an issue for player piloted ship - either way I kill about 1 thing per 10-20 seconds PPT with AM Afflictor. Doing it faster in global time is only better.
But sure, AI doesn't use PPT efficiently, so for them 4x time is a negative.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Igncom1 on February 13, 2020, 09:19:52 AM
Anyone else find that burst laser PD is overkill most of the time? Basic PD lasers or LR PD usually tends to do the job for me.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: TaLaR on February 13, 2020, 09:32:58 AM
Most player ships can and should go without PD, except token to cover engines from Salamanders, at least until capitals.
BurstPD is good at removing few high value missiles but is easy to overload or spoil with flares.
Without IPDAI any non flak PD is not to be relied on. With IPDAI I'd rather use IR pulse, at least on Conquest or Odyssey.

For AI ships I just put few cheap LRPD/PD lasers - that's as much as makes sense without IPDAI.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Megas on February 13, 2020, 09:33:51 AM
Anyone else find that burst laser PD is overkill most of the time? Basic PD lasers or LR PD usually tends to do the job for me.
Late in the game, I often find basic PD lasers too slow at stopping things, and I want either burst PD or IPDAI IR Pulse Lasers (on things that cannot use flak).  Maybe those with Advanced Countermeasures 3 can get by with weaker beam PD.

I like burst PD against sudden mine spawns from enemy Doom or star fortress.

I prefer burst PD over IPDAI IR pulse lasers.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Aereto on February 13, 2020, 02:49:09 PM
Most player ships can and should go without PD, except token to cover engines from Salamanders, at least until capitals.
BurstPD is good at removing few high value missiles but is easy to overload or spoil with flares.
Without IPDAI any non flak PD is not to be relied on. With IPDAI I'd rather use IR pulse, at least on Conquest or Odyssey.

For AI ships I just put few cheap LRPD/PD lasers - that's as much as makes sense without IPDAI.
I don't typically use IR pulse since its flux is higher than typical PD equipment of similar size, and I know things can get out of hand fast when bombs and rockets are coming.

Meanwhile against mines, burst PD is very effective so long as they don't get flared, unless IPDAI is installed to deal with that on top of dealing extra damage to missiles and mines.

Defensive Systems 3 for phase ships is generally bad.  With 4x speed, they burn through PPT faster and lose the endurance game faster against enemy phase ships.  The only time it may be useful is Harbinger playership that desperately needs more speed to outmaneuver enemy ships like a phase frigate.

I definitely do not want Defensive Systems 3 on an officer assigned to a Doom.

As I personally use phase ships and let other officers use other ships for frontline combat, I use DS 3 to quicken my movement and weapon fire while phased, especially when I am armed with 2 antimatter salvo pairs, phase lance pair, and Typhoon launchers. I sacrificed PD for maximum flux capacity, and use resistant flux conduits to vent faster than increasing flux vent for the same points while resisting EMP weapons.

Harbingers are pretty effective phase killers due to its system ability to overload a ship. A brief enough time to use fast spike damage weapons before they cloak. It would have a harder time with a Doom since it has more flux capacity and the mines, but everything else is fine.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Plantissue on February 13, 2020, 04:23:29 PM
Burst PD is useful when you need to kill missiles for vulnerable locations. Like a phase ship, or for protecting the engines of most warships. Burst PD is much more useful to destroy missiles fired by bombers, though you can argue that LR PD has longer range so may kill the bomber beforehand if massed. For example, for the rear arc of a Medusa, you may prefer a single Burst PD Laser over 2 of LR PD or PD Lasers as it's better against missiles and cheaper in OP.

I quite like the idea of IPDAI IR Pulse Lasers; it's just that there aren't many ships where it becomes viable, mostly the Capitals.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: TaLaR on February 13, 2020, 09:07:31 PM
Most player ships can and should go without PD, except token to cover engines from Salamanders, at least until capitals.
BurstPD is good at removing few high value missiles but is easy to overload or spoil with flares.
Without IPDAI any non flak PD is not to be relied on. With IPDAI I'd rather use IR pulse, at least on Conquest or Odyssey.

For AI ships I just put few cheap LRPD/PD lasers - that's as much as makes sense without IPDAI.
I don't typically use IR pulse since its flux is higher than typical PD equipment of similar size, and I know things can get out of hand fast when bombs and rockets are coming.

AI can't use flux heavy PD at all - they disable it too early (at about 40-50% flux).
But player can, and flux costs are acceptable because it's dual purpose PD/close combat weapon (and IPDAI IR pulse is the only way to get decent dps from small energy slots). Conquest and Odyssey having more dissipation than they can efficiently spend via larger slots helps this build too.
Title: Re: Fitting High-Tech Ships
Post by: Lucky33 on February 14, 2020, 03:40:31 AM
Just a reminder.

Reaper has 500 hp.
Hammer and Hurricane 350 hp.
Atropos and Squall 300 hp.

Basic PD is mostly useless against massed missile attacks. Skills and IPDAI are a must have.