Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: SafariJohn on January 12, 2020, 06:52:00 AM

Title: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: SafariJohn on January 12, 2020, 06:52:00 AM
The salient features of the Falcon (P) are its speed and missile mounts. An unintended side effect of those is that missile builds can pile on flux capacitors to become ridiculously tough. To counter that, I suggest the OP cost of medium missiles on the Falcon be increased by 10.

Full missile builds would still have their amazing strike power and speed (including EMR and ECCM), but without leaving gunboat and hybrid builds in the dust.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Igncom1 on January 12, 2020, 06:57:14 AM
But that's the whole point of the pirate version, right? If you want a gunboat just use a normal or 14th falcon.

Missiles are the only thing pirates have going for them.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: SafariJohn on January 12, 2020, 09:07:08 AM
A Falcon P gunboat is substantially different from a normal Falcon. For example, here's a build I hastily threw together that would not be directly affected by the proposed nerf:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/rVpWK1L.png)
[close]


And missile builds would still be strong. Here's a pretty standard build simulating the OP cost increase (125-10*4=85):
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/DuEjUYN.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: DatonKallandor on January 13, 2020, 06:09:17 AM
I'd rather see a direct OP nerf rather trying to OP nerf but in a more complicated way. And obviously it needs to lose it's built-in mods - Pirate ships are supposed to be worse not a better version of a ship with several story points spent on it for free.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Cyber Von Cyberus on January 13, 2020, 06:36:09 AM
This nerf sounds a way too harsh, a whole 10 extra op used from every medium missile is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Plantissue on January 13, 2020, 07:14:27 AM
I don't understand this post. When since was Falcon (P) and its missiles was a problem in the game? I am vaguely aware that the forum has woken up to the missile spam potential of the Falcon (P), but the post seems to have missing information. Did someone post a 120 DP worth of Falcon (P) fleet beating a 700 DP fleet whilst in a normal battle, that sort of thing? Just looking at it, the Falcon (P) should instantly evaporate to a bounty or expedition fleet as it has no anti-fighter capabilities whatsoever.

Even if is was a problem, in any case to suggest paying +10 OP for a medium missile strikes me as ridiculous. Feels very out of place. As if all other options for a nerf was exhausted. If you want to nerf missiles on Falcon (P), you can change some of the medium mounts to small, or simply change them to another mount.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on January 13, 2020, 08:19:11 AM
One of the big problems with the pirate Falcon is that it goes from the ordinary, unremarkable Falcon to something that can mount nearly as many med missiles as a Legion, or two meds and turreted ballistics, but retains most of the Falcon's good qualities; flux stats are mostly the same, maneuvering jets, good shield.

I'd swap the Composites to the hardpoints at bare minimum, and ideally it would get a serious rebuild - putting a medium Missile hardpoint in the trench, swapping the Composite turrets to Missile, and shrinking the bow hardpoints to small Ballistic is one idea - to be less of a death machine. But simply increasing OP costs wouldn't really solve the problem of how much flux-free damage the Falcon (P) can do. It just flatly needs fewer medium Missile slots. It could even go down to two, and get Fast Missile Racks for a system to keep it scary, but without the current insane, fluxless alpha potential.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: bobucles on January 13, 2020, 12:33:40 PM
I like the medium missile slots. The main issue is that missile mounts are simply more powerful than ballistic or energy mounts. Missile weapons tend to be stronger, cheaper and are critical for turning the tide of battle, and the Pirate Falcon gets 2 nice hull mods (15+24OP) on top of it. Moreso, it gets all these goodies practically for free. These sort of strange ship upgrades place it far apart from the original falcon, and make the pirate version a potent upgrade from the standard military variant.

It's a cool thing and its fun to have, I just didn't expect to see it coming from pirates. Balanced or not, I'd rather see more examples of this kind of super ship mod, rather than less. It seems well suited to the upcoming story point system.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: isyourmojofly on January 14, 2020, 09:07:41 AM
This isn't a problem I've encountered in the campaign. It was only really evident from the Starsector tournament. Let's not balance the game around that, please!
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: SafariJohn on January 14, 2020, 09:25:13 AM
This isn't a problem I've encountered in the campaign. It was only really evident from the Starsector tournament. Let's not balance the game around that, please!

This doesn't come from the tournament. It comes from player-piloting in the campaign. A missile-spamming Falcon P flagship is absurdly powerful and DP efficient. The competing ships, Gryphon and Aurora, both cost more DP (i.e. have less fleet support) and have equivalent or inferior missile-power.


But simply increasing OP costs wouldn't really solve the problem of how much flux-free damage the Falcon (P) can do. It just flatly needs fewer medium Missile slots.

You are probably right.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Plantissue on January 14, 2020, 09:51:53 AM
The competitors as player piloted ships would be Afflictor, Shade and Harbinger. Not saying that Falcon (P) doesn't need a nerf, but it's hardly the most absurdly powerful and DP efficient player ship.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: bobucles on January 14, 2020, 11:46:13 AM
The competitors as player piloted ships would be Afflictor, Shade and Harbinger. Not saying that Falcon (P) doesn't need a nerf, but it's hardly the most absurdly powerful and DP efficient player ship.
Don't forget an honorable mention for the Safety override hammerhead! It definitely has much harsher limitations, but when it shines it cleans house.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: FooF on January 14, 2020, 01:10:03 PM
I've been using a Falcon (P) as a flagship for my latest run and while it is absurdly effective for alphas, I find that it is very lackluster once you fight things that can actually take a Reaper or Harpoon barrage. My current setup is 2x Medium Sabot, Medium Harpoon, Typhoon Launcher, 2x Annihilator and a Hypervelocity Driver on one mount (to LRPD lasers too but w/e).

Sure, it is brutal against Destroyers (it's supposed to be) and can wipe any Frigate instantly (a waste of ammo) but against a bunch of Cruisers or above, I end up having to retreat after the initial volley because the bigger ships have staying power (and I don't!) I'm not saying it's not punching way above its weight class but the Falcon (P) is predicated on ammunition unlike most other ships out there save the Gryphon.

If it needs a nerf, take away the default Expanded Missile Racks so that it becomes an OP-tax to maximize its potential.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Lucky33 on January 14, 2020, 08:35:15 PM
Sabotpod has 9 sec between bursts. Thats heavyac level of op. Typhoon has 15 sec chargedown. Better than heavymortar I guess. But not even in the same universe as the chaingun.

Medium missiles are balanced just fine. Its medium energy mounts what are gimped unless you have a huge dissipation. And since basic Falcon doesnt, its just a "cruiser" with the worse armanent than Hammerhead. Only compared to that, (P) version looks great.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: AxleMC131 on January 14, 2020, 09:02:12 PM
Sabotpod has 9 sec between bursts. Thats heavyac level of op. Typhoon has 15 sec chargedown. Better than heavymortar I guess. But not even in the same universe as the chaingun...

Medium missiles are balanced just fine.

I think you're underestimating instantaneous damage potential. Missiles of those kinds deal IMMENSE amounts of damage in a single burst. Gauging their power from DPS is a red herring.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: TaLaR on January 14, 2020, 09:23:51 PM
And since basic Falcon doesnt, its just a "cruiser" with the worse armanent than Hammerhead. Only compared to that, (P) version looks great.

Basic Falcon has less firepower than Hammerhead. But it's still a much stronger ship in 1v1 scenario. It has more range and more effective mobility (same average, but burst is better for timed distance corrections). With enough hard flux firepower to kill Hammerhead from that range. A well piloted(which AI can fail at, admittedly) and properly built stand-off Falcon would always defeat a Hammerhead in completely one-sided manner.

And since Falcon is 9 Burn it doesn't really compete with other Cruisers anyway. Falcon is mostly an over-sized DE.
It still has very bad firepower to DP ratio though.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Thaago on January 14, 2020, 09:52:01 PM
The basic Falcon is an absolutely incredible ship for everything except getting quick kills. Its combination of high speed (faster than all but 1 Destroyer), full cruiser range, cruiser flux systems, and cruiser PPT would be completely busted if it weren't for its low overall firepower. Something like 2 heavy needlers, 1 Ion beam, lr pd lasers, and ITU is very good at locking down enemy ships while staying alive.

I agree with the OP that the Falcon P is overly strong in its pure missile configuration because it has the OP to max its capacitance rather than vents and not suffer at all in firepower. It can have a very, very tough shield on a fast platform - perfect for point blank sabot barrages.

I like the idea of removing the built in expanded racks better than penalizing the mount type however - its still an OP tax, but a less harsh one.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Lucky33 on January 14, 2020, 10:40:33 PM
Sabotpod has 9 sec between bursts. Thats heavyac level of op. Typhoon has 15 sec chargedown. Better than heavymortar I guess. But not even in the same universe as the chaingun...

Medium missiles are balanced just fine.

I think you're underestimating instantaneous damage potential. Missiles of those kinds deal IMMENSE amounts of damage in a single burst. Gauging their power from DPS is a red herring.

All ships are balanced in the terms of managing instantaneous damage potential. With four sabot pods you have 16K potential damage to shields. Thats enough to overload Dominator and Outventure but both can survive two reapers. Every gun-cruiser can survive a single reaper. And every cruiser has flux capacity to take six sabots. Only carriers and freighters (including certain modified one) are vulnerable. And, obviously, destroyers.

Here goes DPS.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: TaLaR on January 14, 2020, 11:14:14 PM
Sabot pod has about the same dps as HAC. And unlike HAC, it's limited and can be countered in multiple ways. The simplest being backpedaling, since no matter how fast the launching ship is, Sabot 1st stage itself is slow.
Only point blank launches (vs PD-less opponent or covered by launching ship's shield) from a faster ship are real form of offense. Typical use by AI just buys it few seconds of survival by forcing me dodge/backpedal/etc.

AI doesn't use any anti-Sabot tactics and lets them generate overloads too easily. Eating overload vs Reaper is usually a good decision, but vs Sabot it's pure shield management mistake (intentionally not perfect reaction time is one fine, but even a mediocre player is likely to do better).

Just make Sabots produce a sound when they go 2nd stage! Being silent is pretty much the only reason reacting to them (by shield drop or phase skimmer) poses difficulty to player at all.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Lucky33 on January 14, 2020, 11:43:47 PM
And since basic Falcon doesnt, its just a "cruiser" with the worse armanent than Hammerhead. Only compared to that, (P) version looks great.

Basic Falcon has less firepower than Hammerhead. But it's still a much stronger ship in 1v1 scenario. It has more range and more effective mobility (same average, but burst is better for timed distance corrections). With enough hard flux firepower to kill Hammerhead from that range. A well piloted(which AI can fail at, admittedly) and properly built stand-off Falcon would always defeat a Hammerhead in completely one-sided manner.

And since Falcon is 9 Burn it doesn't really compete with other Cruisers anyway. Falcon is mostly an over-sized DE.
It still has very bad firepower to DP ratio though.

Thats tactics. I'm pretty much sure that player's ability to kill that op Falcon (P) in a frigate not even up for the discussion.

Firepower to DP is ok. Its Hammerhead's ratio not ok.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: TaLaR on January 15, 2020, 12:01:50 AM
Thats tactics. I'm pretty much sure that player's ability to kill that op Falcon (P) in a frigate not even up for the discussion.

That's very basic tactic exploiting objective speed+range advantage. Not doing even this much can only be classified as AI being not good enough.
While player piloted Hammerhead can win vs Falcon in skill-less fight too, it's never as one-sided (you need to trade away quite decent amount of armor vs properly built Falcon).

Yes, any rear-vulnerable ship can be killed by humble Wolf in skill-less fight. SO or not depending on whether you need more mobility or PPT (SO against Falcon). But it's more difficult tactic, so I don't expect AI to be able to properly and reliably execute it. Trying to do it under wrong conditions is suicide. In comparison, Falcon kiting is safe and simple.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Goumindong on January 15, 2020, 12:27:46 AM
This isn't a problem I've encountered in the campaign. It was only really evident from the Starsector tournament. Let's not balance the game around that, please!

This doesn't come from the tournament. It comes from player-piloting in the campaign. A missile-spamming Falcon P flagship is absurdly powerful and DP efficient. The competing ships, Gryphon and Aurora, both cost more DP (i.e. have less fleet support) and have equivalent or inferior missile-power.


But simply increasing OP costs wouldn't really solve the problem of how much flux-free damage the Falcon (P) can do. It just flatly needs fewer medium Missile slots.

You are probably right.

The gryphon has far more missile power than the Falcon(p) and the aurora isnt a missile boat. As fleets get larger the gryphon becomes the premier missile finisher, being able to bring hilarious amounts of sustained, high accuracy HE finishing from safety. The Falcon(p) cannot.

The additional  idea that the regular falcon isnt a great ship is... a take.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Lucky33 on January 15, 2020, 01:42:46 AM
Thats tactics. I'm pretty much sure that player's ability to kill that op Falcon (P) in a frigate not even up for the discussion.

That's very basic tactic exploiting objective speed+range advantage. Not doing even this much can only be classified as AI being not good enough.
While player piloted Hammerhead can win vs Falcon in skill-less fight too, it's never as one-sided (you need to trade away quite decent amount of armor vs properly built Falcon).

Yes, any rear-vulnerable ship can be killed by humble Wolf in skill-less fight. SO or not depending on whether you need more mobility or PPT (SO against Falcon). But it's more difficult tactic, so I don't expect AI to be able to properly and reliably execute it. Trying to do it under wrong conditions is suicide. In comparison, Falcon kiting is safe and simple.

Any amount of destroyer's armor for a cruiser is a fair deal.

My point is that if there is a way to exploit an advantage, then player will make it work. In the end it all comes back to the simplest  "who has more dakka" question.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Lucky33 on January 15, 2020, 02:23:50 AM
Falcon (P) has no built-in missile rack.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Cyber Von Cyberus on January 15, 2020, 04:02:41 AM
Falcon (P) has no built-in missile rack.
Sorry about that, missread something.
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Thaago on January 17, 2020, 11:40:59 AM
 Grievous and Axle are quite right about the derailment: I've split the other pages off into a new thread: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17698.0
Title: Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
Post by: Schwartz on January 17, 2020, 11:50:04 AM
Falcon (P) never struck me as overpowered. It's the only pirate ship that's actually worth using - and may rival other dedicated missile builds - but so what? Other pirate ships are just early game junk threats, which makes me a little sad. Just leave Falcon (P) alone.