Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mordodrukow on October 11, 2019, 09:42:15 PM
-
Sorry if there was such topic, didnt saw any.
Having problems with IBB mission fully loaded with phases. I v encountered phase fleets earlier. It was harder to kill than regular enemies (i m not talking about pirate trash fleets here ofc), but doable. With a little losses or without any at all.
But this IBB one is kinda next level. I understand that it is intended to be so, but i think, there is some specially fitted fleet required.
My regular tactics against phases was simple: lots of tactical lasors and point defence force AI ships to stay in their phase realm until they nearly overload. Is there any additional hints to solve such fights?
Also any advices about IBB mechanics will be appreciated.
-
Carrers with fighters/interceptors, hardened subsystems, pilums, full shields, and long range beam weapons.
Then just make a big ball around your big ships and stay there, the interceptors and long range will cause the AI to phase out and run away, the only reliable way I've found to kill phase fleets is to wait for them to lose most or all of their CR then murder them while they can't do anything. phase ships have about half the combat time of regular ships.
-
A couple of ways.
- Spam pilums and watch AI die of a heart attack.
- Spam fighters (not bombers, they are going to miss a bunch).
- Spam beams, especially the High Intensity Laser.
- Get a bunch of capitals with Hardened Subsystems, then outwait the phase ships.
-
I'd even say "interceptors" over fighters too, because if the phase ships can zip away under phase they can get a vent in. Talons are a little light, but massed will do, and Sparks are practically tailor made to murder phase ships.
-
TY for replies!
About pilums: do they recapture the target if it was lost because of phase cloack and then reappeared?
-
A couple of ways.
- Spam pilums and watch AI die of a heart attack.
- Spam fighters (not bombers, they are going to miss a bunch).
- Spam beams, especially the High Intensity Laser.
- Get a bunch of capitals with Hardened Subsystems, then outwait the phase ships.
Hardened subsystems is hardly necessary. A Doom only has the PPT of an Destroyer (low tech), and it runs out of CR faster once the PPT ends. That's before you consider that it spends the majority of the time phase cloaked, meaning that time runs 3-4x as fast for the Doom as your ships, so it's 420 second PPT runs out in around 150 seconds of combat. A Doom will actually run out of CR faster than a Tempest without Hardened Subsystems.
Anything less than a Doom obviously runs out faster. More importantly, anything less than a Doom doesn't really pose much of a threat. AI is so *** when it comes to phase ships that you can pretty much just ignore them and nothing will happen, then they run out of CR and die, no problem.
If you are fighting at a much smaller scale and want to kill Gremlins and Shades fast without waiting 2-3 minutes for them to run out of CR naturally, the best thing to do is sit on them while they are in phase and just wait until they have no choice but to surface in your line of fire. Hyperion works best for that, especially with alternating phase lance (1 phase lance forces them into phase, the second provides a threat to keep them there until they run out of flux, then you pounce with both).
-
TY for replies!
About pilums: do they recapture the target if it was lost because of phase cloack and then reappeared?
They search for another target.
I think all missiles do that (but most of them run out of fuel while turning or hit the dead ship before they can turn and target another ship)
Against Phase ship. As others said Cover them with fire (fast firing ballistics (preferably HE) also work) until they have to vent or overload. (Fighters, beams eg.)
or outlive their CR
-
This is my purely vanilla experience with phase ships. In my experience pilums don't work as phase ships are generally way too fast for the pilums to ever catch them. Waiting for CR decay is a pain, so I wouldn't try that as a strategy. Best way is to be able to damage them for the short instance they decloak or run out of flux. Fighters like Thunders and even Talons are best, though curiously enough, I found that sometimes Daggers can hit phase ships when they dephase as it take 2 seconds for them to rephase. High Intensity Laser, Tachyon Lance and Phase lance for ship weapons. Doom is a pain to fight against as it is good at killing fighters, and can quickly kill frigates and destroyers alike, but it is also relatively slow and runs out of flux quickly.
In theory Harbinger should be great because it can dephase ships, but it's best vs the frigate phase ships as Harbinger vs Harbinger duals are some of the stupidest things I have ever seen. Likewise for Doom vs Doom. You need to be able to predict where the other Doom will be so it can't so easily dephase and to predict where and when it runs out of flux and ideally you want a flux advantage as well so the other Doom dephases first.
-
The AI isn't terribly effective with phase ships, so ideally you can kill the main fleet first and focus them down afterward.
There are virtually no weapons that can deal significant burst damage in the small window of weakness between cloaks. Missile weapons take too long to reach the target, and most projectiles are only good for 1 or 2 hits. Long duration weapons like beams tend to be more effective. Pressure the ship to stay cloaked to overload its flux, and it will eventually have no choice but to decloak into taking damage.
-
Pilums don't need to catch phase ships. Phase ships are immensely distracted by them and can't do anything while in Pilum saturated area, eventually losing by CR. Of course, Pilums have crap missile hp, so even minimum PD may be able shoot them down.
Spamming interceptors is still better, especially Sparks.
-
In short, weapons that have continuous fire can outlast phase ships' flux, forcing them to decloak and take armor damage. It's all downhill from there. Weapons with sudden burst potential are bad because they can dodge into cloak then come out and hit you during your cooldown phase. Anything with limited ammo is foolish. Beams are spectacular against them, as is any weapon with a regular firing rate and armor penetration. Of course if they're not bringing too much firepower to bear, you also have the simple option of killing the rest of their fleet first while they dance around. A lone phase ship does not fare well against a fleet of infinite cover fire.
-
Pilums don't need to catch phase ships. Phase ships are immensely distracted by them and can't do anything while in Pilum saturated area, eventually losing by CR. Of course, Pilums have crap missile hp, so even minimum PD may be able shoot them down.
Spamming interceptors is still better, especially Sparks.
How many pilums are you talking about here? A single dominator with 3 pilums isn't going to be able to distract 1 phase ship never mind 2 or more. How many do you need to saturate an area with pilum? It surely isn't neccessary to compeltely change your fleet just to counter phase ships, especially when you can do so without waiting for them to run out of CR. Unless you happen to have the ships and weapons available for pilum spam, but no carriers or LPC or energy weapons and already present somehow.
-
Supression. Pilums are good but they are slow. Salamanders+Locusts are better. Fighters are good too but there is always a problem with carriers. Many of them can just got overrun. Dooms and Shades you know...
Continuous firing weapons. HIL works like charm but there is only that much of the ships with large rotating energy mounts. For a more common solution there is an Assault Chaingun. You only need to outrange an Antimatter Blaster.
Omni or 360 degree shields. Self explanatory.
Good burst PD. IPDAI. ECM.
Solar shielding. Resistant Flux Conduits. Automated Repair Unit.
-
How many do you need to saturate an area with pilum?
With the new stats, 8-10 launchers is enough to start the ball rolling. 16-20 launchers is what you should be aiming for as a minimum if you want a death carpet.
Pila really don't work well at all small scale.
And yes, you do need to build around doing this.
And yes, it is effective against everything.
And no, it's not 'optimal' for anything. Other than watching missileworms wiggle about like explosive spaghetti.
-
I find that phase ships usually just flux themselves out and have to retreat when faced with point defence most of the time.
Any fighter or interceptor will murder them outright, on their own. As if they don't have strike weapons like torpedoes or AM blasters they can't sit still for long enough before chickening out into phase space.
The only ones that I fear are ones that can do stuff to support the normal part of the fleet by flanking or powers, or the DOOMSLAYER who can spawn star-fortress mines wherever it chooses and has enough armour to take a hit or two before going down.
Otherwise they are just frigates/destroyers without shields and twice as skiddish.
-
I guess, i need to repeat, that we are talking about IBB mission. It is like 20 phase ships, mostly destroyers and cruisers, many have officers, all fited optimally to hit and run all as one, not like idiotic pirates. They move faster then regular phase ships. They appear, stab you with reapers or just overload you by ton of deadly *** and then kill with reapers.
My fleet was like 2 Victories, few Legions and an Onslaught. I defenitely neet to change something. At least: pick some ships without vulenerable rear.
-
I alluded to Daggers killing phase ships earlier, purely as an unreliable anecdotal observation, so I decided to so some testing.
I've found out that Daggers, Tridents, and Khopeshes wait for the phase ship to dephase or be unphased before firing. It is difficult to tell for Perditions and Cobras, as they are manoeuvrable, but it seems Perditions too, wait for the phase ship to be unphased. Cobras tend to not fire the reaper at all, being either too close or the prediction of the firing solution never being found, so I cannot tell. Longbows certainly do not wait and fire without regard of whether the ship is phased of unphased.
I see no point testing with the Piranha or the Lux.
So Daggers, being fast and manoeuvrable, with a fast tracking missile do rather suprisingly counter phase ships. If it is close enough, it is a certain hit on the phase ship as it takes 2 seconds for the phase ship to recloak. It's just that Dooms tend to kill all fighters with ease, so I never really observed it clearly before.
It's suprising, discovering a new thing about this game after so long. To find out that some bombers wait for the phase ship to decloak before firing. I naturally assumed that like most fighters, they just fire automatically. How many people knew of this beforehand?
_________________________________________
I guess, i need to repeat, that we are talking about IBB mission. It is like 20 phase ships, mostly destroyers and cruisers, many have officers, all fited optimally to hit and run all as one, not like idiotic pirates. They move faster then regular phase ships. They appear, stab you with reapers or just overload you by ton of deadly *** and then kill with reapers.
My fleet was like 2 Victories, few Legions and an Onslaught. I defenitely neet to change something. At least: pick some ships without vulenerable rear.
Sounds like to me that the problem you have is that you have a fleet completely geared up to fight capital warships with no leeway for anything else and it's a relatively tiny fleet to boot. Just the destroyers alone would be 20 x 20 = 400 DP, nevermind the Cruisers. What will your fleet that looks like 240 DP will do against that?
Also you talk about officers, but the normal assumption is that both fleets will have officers, and so equalise themselves, so it sounds like you don't have any. Get some officers and train them up.
Based on what I have just discovered, the easiest and quickest change you can do is swop over whatever loadout your Legions have with something with burst laser for DOOM mines; even Longbows will do, and Daggers. Alternatively, based on what Serenitis has written, you have at least the minimum number of medium missile mounts for spamming Pilum. let us know how you get on.
-
240 DP vs 400 DP is not a problem most of the time. And i have 6 officers. The problem is that IBB missions are harder than regular battles. I guess, it is intended.
Lol. Also always forget to mention: i have Augmented drive field on all slow capitals, so, it also adds some difficulty.
Right now i v captured Odyssey and Heron. Also trying to collect more pilums (had 9 in storage). Dont sure, i want to use all capitals, because their shield arcs are too narrow. Also very bad mobility...
Or, may be, it is better to go full high-tech. Will think about that.
-
If you're going to use Pilum spam you need to fit literally everything that isn't the flagship with them.
If possible use Falcon (P). Put ECCM on it, plus converted hangar and a Thunder wing. Use command points to keep them away from battle, but close enough so the fighters can engage.
For that IBB mission, you really want fighters. And you want them hosted on platforms that are as mobile as possible. Herons are fairly good here as they're reasonably quick, and can mount tac lasers which will make phase ships a little more reluctant to close in.
Generally though, the more beams the better. Odyssey or Paragon flagship fitted with a full beam loadout would be ideal.
Personally I'd favour Odyssey for the mobility.
You can do it with just Pila, but it's boring. All that happens is the missiles 'deny' some space so the phase ships either back off or advance.
If they back off they reduce thier breathing room for the next wave until they can't go anywhere but forward. If they advance they get caught between two waves and get more pressured until they max out flux and start taking hits. Either way they waste flux and time and eventually fall to CR attrition and/or dumb descisions.
Adding fighters makes things much quicker/less dull.
-
IBBs are intended to be more difficult than a normal battle of its size, mostly because of a specialized theme or due to the presence of the special mod ships.
As mentioned before, things that can zone out phase ships for an extended period of time can work wonders against them. You'll also need some PD capabilities to handle the mines. So fast fighters, pilums or other slow zoning LRMS, and heavy use of beams or other consistent fire weapon.
Personally, I'd make heavy use of thunders, or if you have them Harridans from DME. They're extremely fast, have very large engagement range for zoning panicked phase ships, and more importantly pack EMP weapons. The EMP weapons in sufficient numbers will hamper a phase ships mobility once they phase out, even for a bit. Ideally, they would unphase while high on flux causing a flameout from EMP preventing maneuvers until overload. Even away from that, hampering phase mobility is important as their high mobility combined with temporary invulnerability makes them difficult to deal with and EMP saturation limits one of those.
Also, it's important to keep your fleet together while they have sufficient PD to handle mines. Clustering is bad against mines, but a lone ship will get ripped apart by phase ships, especially when harbingers are around.
-
So, i v made it. Dunno if IBB always the same, but it was LaCroix.
Their fleet:
Lucifer 2
Doom 1
Euryale 4
Harbinger 2
Tormentor 4
Phantom 4
Afflictior 2
Brawler 1
I v taken (270 points total):
Matriarch 1
Odyssey 3
Heron 1
Charybdis 1
Phalcon (p) 2
Total fighter wings: 16
Pilums: 22
Accidentally lost one Phalcon (well, screw it... it was D-modded anyway). It looks like, it was possible to win with lesser forces, but i swear, it was most fun and satisfying show i v seen in SS so far. ;D
TY for help, guys!