Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Amoebka on October 09, 2019, 08:41:32 AM
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We all know how important freighters/tankers are. No fleet can really get by without them for long. Sadly, all high-end freighters and tankers are low-tech.
Why is this a problem? Well, the visual design of them clashes badly with the rest of an otherwise fully high-tech armada. In fact, you can't really have a fully high-tech armada, because that would mean no freighters and no tankers!
Even worse, low-tech ships have red engine fumes. This means that on the campaign layer, your "high-tech" fleet won't have the pretty all-blue tail, it will have ugly red stripes in it! Trust me, I know how idiotically petty this all sounds, but for some people, like me, that's a big enough deal to post about it here.
On a somewhat related note, Buffalo is considered a high-tech ship, but has red engine fumes. Almost feels like a scam. That, at least, should be an easy fix.
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For the Buffalo, I seem to remember this being intentional, so I don't want to overrule past-me. But! Let me make the Buffalo (TT) use high-tech engine glows; that seems appropriate - there, done.
For tankers, hmm. I could see maybe using a skin, or adding a high-tech cruiser-sized tanker. Will keep it in mind, at any rate :)
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Thanks for listening, man. :)
In the meantime, can I edit the TT Buffalo myself? In the data/hulls I can see only a single Buffalo file, changing it would change all variants, right? I will just change it myself. Found the skins folder, wasn't worth asking.
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In case you haven't figured it out already, add this to the .skin file:
"engineSlotChanges":{
"0":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"1":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"2":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"3":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"4":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"5":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
},
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In case you haven't figured it out already, add this to the .skin file:
"engineSlotChanges":{
"0":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"1":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"2":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"3":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"4":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
"5":{"style":"HIGH_TECH"},
},
Can you do this with custom engine glows like the Cobra?
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Buffalo (TT) is just superficial markings though. Giving it blue engine glow suggests it's an actual refit like the Buffalo (P) and Brawler (TT)... IMO if Buffalo (TT) gets blue engine glows it should also get Plasma Burn! And maybe Shielded Cargo Holds too, because sneaky Tri-Tachyon.
Way I see it, Midline designs are pretty close to High Tech (e.g. Tri-Tachyon makes heavy use of Midlines, particularly carriers); and in any case why waste High Tech components in a freighter... unless it's the promised Phase freighter.
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If you were going to give the TT buffalo anything it should be IEM (in addition to blue engine trails)
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If you were going to give the TT buffalo anything it should be IEM (in addition to blue engine trails)
Sounds about right, same as Brawler (TT) (which, incidentally, really needs built-in flux mods, if skins can't modify flux stats).
I don't think a High Tech tanker fits, unless it's a Phase tanker (which, if created, would probably be meant to be a Phase planetary bomber rather than just a tanker). Why make a tanker out of more fragile, more expensive and hard-to-maintain High Tech components? What do you want your High Tech tanker to do that normal tankers couldn't?
Unless it's a tanker specifically made for the aforementioned planetary bombing role.
But if we start making High Tech versions of tankers for the sake of "all blue engine trails" then I'd like to raise the old issue of a High Tech, non-capital carrier...
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On one hand, there's no point in making high-tech tankers or freighters, since they already have two tech levels worth of logistic ships: they do already work well enough. Add in to the fact that high tech ships are supposed to be more expensive and individually powerful, for a kind of ships you don't want the former and don't care about the latter...
On the other hand, tech levels should be gone and replaced with more playstyle specific descriptions, to avoid giving people a bad impression, and thus there wouldn't be much of a reason not to have some high tech logistic ships. They could have the niche of "built-in militarised subsystems" (by not getting civilian hull in the first place) at the cost of higher maintenance.
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On one hand, there's no point in making high-tech tankers or freighters, since they already have two tech levels worth of logistic ships: they do already work well enough. Add in to the fact that high tech ships are supposed to be more expensive and individually powerful, for a kind of ships you don't want the former and don't care about the latter...
On the other hand, tech levels should be gone and replaced with more playstyle specific descriptions, to avoid giving people a bad impression, and thus there wouldn't be much of a reason not to have some high tech logistic ships. They could have the niche of "built-in militarised subsystems" (by not getting civilian hull in the first place) at the cost of higher maintenance.
That's how I feel, though I'd say whether tech levels as a game concept exists or not is irrelevant. Players will look at a sleek, blue ships with fancy blue engine trails and blocky, red ships with boring orange engine trails and automatically differentiate ships into tech levels.
IMO 'High Tech' design is all about using very expensive and very fragile parts to build agile warships that can either bully smaller ships or flank larger ships. There's no need for these qualities in civilian ships like freighters and tankers, and even for combat freighters there's no reason for a civilian on a budget to blow money on an expensive, costly to maintain High Tech freighter when Midline equivalents work just fine against your everyday pirate - or hire an escort.
Likewise, for the primary factions a convoy of very fancy High Tech combat freighters is likely more expensive and less effective than cheap Midline freighters with actual warship escorts.
The only reason for High Tech logistic vessels is if they do something drastically different from Midline equivalents, i.e. a phase blockade runner or a phase planetary bomber.
Same goes for carriers, the Heron is perfectly servicable for a High Tech fleet. Another High Tech carrier would have to do something very different along the lines of the Recall Device to justify its existence.
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I was under the impression that tech levels were time periods, and people would certainly use new technologies if they can. If you've invented efficient shield generators in the high-tech era, you would certainly want them on your tankers so your volatile fuel doesn't explode to a single stray torpedo.
That said, even if high-tech is supposed to be generally inefficient, there are still niches for high-tech logistic ships. Supporting black-ops fleets, deep space exploration and just good old vanity. If Domain officials wasted billions developing overengineered Paragons and Astrals, they might have developed special logistic ships to service them as well.
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I like the swirl of different colours all mixing together, especially when circling round, but I can recognise that others might want a pure blue or pure red, or even pure white stream of colour. A cruiser sized tanker would be nice. It would fill a hole the same way the Collossus filled a hole.
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High-tech isn't strictly about being fast and agile, but about ships being individually more powerful (it's a bit of a circular reasoning — high-tech ships are strong, so they need to have bad/short ranged weapons, so that they can't support one another easily, so they need to be individually strong...). You can make high-tech logistic ships be less individually strong and more about being able to put all those nice logistic mods, at the expense of them being more expensive and less efficient, than low-tech logistic ships.
I was under the impression that tech levels were time periods, and people would certainly use new technologies if they can. If you've invented efficient shield generators in the high-tech era, you would certainly want them on your tankers so your volatile fuel doesn't explode to a single stray torpedo.
Domain abandoned superior ballistic weapons later on, so that was either trends, not actual technology advancements, or the Domain is really, really dumb. I reckon Alex said it's the former.
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The 14th battlegroup was still operating by the fall was it not?
It does include midline ships that said, with the later hege having wolf frigates as well. But unless some of the irreplaceable ships lost in time included 14th paragons, which would be cool, I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that.
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High-tech isn't strictly about being fast and agile, but about ships being individually more powerful
That said, for a logistics ship, being fast (and maybe agile) is being individually more powerful.
Would I take a higher burn level for a higher upkeep? I'm unsure.
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Domain abandoned superior ballistic weapons later on, so that was either trends, not actual technology advancements, or the Domain is really, really dumb. I reckon Alex said it's the former.
I would say Domain is really, really dumb, and is a reason for the Collapse. They abandoned the good weapons then lost some critical war. At least I would during 0.7.x when Dominator could kite-and-snipe Paragon to death, and Onslaught could kill everything the fastest.
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The 14th battlegroup was still operating by the fall was it not?
It does include midline ships that said, with the later hege having wolf frigates as well. But unless some of the irreplaceable ships lost in time included 14th paragons, which would be cool, I'm not sure it's as clear cut as that.
It had not even got to the sector yet, but it did manege to get some time after the gate network fell
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Domain ship design and doctrine is cyclical. With each cycle some new toys are introduced (e.g. High Tech ships), but the following cycle sees a return to the Old Ways. Hence why the ancient Onslaught remains a mainstay of Domain fleets (the 14th, while not up-to-date with the latest Domain fad, probably represents the cycle prior).
Different tech levels are more indicative of doctrinal shift rather than a straight upgrade. Yes there are new techs, but they're not necessarily better than the old in practice; and while Low Tech designs probably aren't being innovated on anymore (other than updating them with essential new techs), Midline designs were still being created at the same time as High Tech designs.
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How about more high tech carriers as well? Maybe a cruiser carrier that’s super fast and carries nothing but 4 bays of built in terminator drones.
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cruiser carrier that’s super fast
The Heron is already approaching the "too fast" mark. We don't need more fast carriers...
But a larger terminator drone-carrier sounds alright. While we're at it, give the Venture 2 or 3 Mining Drone wings. It's weird that the Venture has less drone firepower than the lowly Shepherd.
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How many ways can one make a metal box for holding stuff strapped tp engines more high tech?
perhaps, in exchange for higher upkeep, lower hull, and less cargo, you have a futuristic go-fast boat or narco sub designed with stealth technology for moving high-value, low weight cargo through blockades
its a subtle, expensive, scalpel of transport rather than a blunt hammer
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Wait wait, I know what we still don’t have, a Phase Carrier!
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I'm not sure dumping our pilots into phase space is a great idea. ;D
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Phased carrier! Add Recall Device, muahhahahaha.
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Phase freighter is already planned, assuming Alex hasn't changed his mind.
Phase carriers were actually in the game previously. There's a reason why Converted Hangar got a "no Phase ships" clause: it didn't have one when it was first introduced...
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For new high-tech carrier, frigate carrier akin to Shepherd, except it can use any LPC and powerful enough to be a combat vessel. Sort of like Tempest is to Hound.
I disagree that carriers like Heron are too fast. Aside from Astral, the carriers that are slow are Condor (cheap converted freighter; pirate ship in all but name), Gemini (hybrid freighter/carrier), Mora (tank), and capitals (capitals are slow without mobility systems). Drover and Heron are combat ships and speed and fighters are all that are going for them. Heron pays for its speed with less durability, junk mounts, and about 10 or 15 less OP than Mora. Drover... is expensive and maybe overpowered when combined with Sparks.
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What purpose would a frigate carrier serve, except being easy punching bag?
Carriers are all about reaching critical mass, and frigate carrier would be a bad way to do so:
- extremely inefficient in bays-per-officer.
- likely inefficient in bays-per-dp.
- very short CR compared to alternatives (carriers tend to lose CR due to active replenishment when outside of normal CR depletion range, so they lose by CR to combat ships with same nominal PPT).
- probably slow and defenseless enough to quickly die to any combat frigate in 1v1 (most of them can take out single wing without issues and proceed to kill the carrier).
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What purpose would a frigate carrier serve, except being easy punching bag?
Throw the high-tech pack a bone! It only has three ships: Wolf, Shrike, and Apogee. Low-tech and midline have a bunch of useful ships and one or two carriers. High-tech pack is anemic.
With the skills rework, granularity to fit within the six or whatever bays for maximum bonus from skills (bonuses get smaller after some limit break). Player can have a cruiser, destroyer, and something with a single bay (that is not Gemini, Converted Hangar, or custom built-in). Granted, it could be like Logistics where more ships was always better than unused efficiency bonus (and sometimes worth taking CR penalties for exceeding Logisitcs).
Short CR is a problem for all small ships. It is a reason why most frigates become obsolete shortly after a new game.
For slow and defenseless, it cannot be worse than Shepherd, and Shepherd is one of the better ships in combat early in the game. Of course, if the new frigate carrier is stupidly rare like most high-tech warships, then early-game play would probably be irrelevant.
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Whether you'll need to hit exactly 6 bays or not depends on how scaling will work. Assuming linear, you'd get +3 bays worth of extra replenishment when you have 6 or more bays, spread evenly over all of them.
Shepherd combines best frigate cargo efficiency + built-in Surveying Equipment and Salvage Gantry + basic combat ability. Shepherd is ok for 3DP, but that's about it.
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Would make the intention behind the Shepherd a bit pointless if there was a frigate carrier. Not to mention that the Drover is speed 75 and the heron is speed 80. How fast should a pure frigate carrier should be to match that?
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Shepherd is a hybrid (and a civilian). It would be like saying Condor and Drover make Gemini pointless. As for how fast for a new frigate carrier, at least 80, but no more than 100 (and no mobility system).
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But the shepherd is only technically a carrier, otherwise it's a civilian mining/salvage kinda vessel.
A one deck landing pad for a squadron, with a engine strapped to the side could make for an interesting ship. Although that IS what the drover is.
Otherwise I don't see the need as the astral is the most carrying carrier that ever carried, it's system best used for bombers be damned. Hightech doesn't need other carriers because any serious fleet is built around a capital like the astral anyway.
Not that the 'tech groups' make too much sense as a scale of time or doctrinal progression anyway. What with ships like the Odyssey and Apogee being completely visually distinct from all the rest of high tech with their blue armour.
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The Gemini is kind of pointless. I don't think I have ever seen anyone ever advocate putting it in their fleets. But I suppose now that I have written that someone will. A Drover + Buffalo is less DP but better than two Gemini for instance. It's basically bounty bait for pirates. I think I saw Luddic Church have them but I might have been mistaken.
Besides I said "intention behind the Shepherd" not the Shepherd itself. The intention being an introducing frigate to the concept of fighters by using weak fighters. If there was a carrier frigate, the Shepherd will still be useful, but the intention behind it is lost.
Once AI remnant ships can be in your fleet, there will suddenly be a lot of high tech ships available across all the ship hulls. I'm not behind the idea that all tech groups need to have the same representation anyways.
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Yes, Gemini is not that great today. It was decent to good in previous releases.
Once AI remnant ships can be in your fleet, there will suddenly be a lot of high tech ships available across all the ship hulls. I'm not behind the idea that all tech groups need to have the same representation anyways.
That will require a tier 5 Technology skill. I do not think assuming player always having that skill should be a given, unless it is overpowered like current Loadout Design 3 (and if it is, will be nerfed to the ground later). Even if player has it, it might have stiff limits, like one Radiant and nothing else if you do not want them to self-destruct. Plus, maybe other problems like if Alex does something devious and have patrols demanding immediate surrender of AI ships after a scan.
Also, will there be blueprints for AI ships? Probably not. Maybe not for your fleet, but for your colony patrols.
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I spent forever puzzling what exactly a high tech freighter might be, then I remembered we have phase ships. Shielded cargo holds, zero sensor profile, extremely fast getaways? Sounds like high tech smuggling to me!
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Not a fan of player having Remanant ships.
Those are super-advanced designs with powerful AI's. The player being able to control them makes the player a super-genius that knows more about technolgoy than all the scientists in the sector together.
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I spent forever puzzling what exactly a high tech freighter might be, then I remembered we have phase ships. Shielded cargo holds, zero sensor profile, extremely fast getaways? Sounds like high tech smuggling to me!
It was brought up before, and Alex seemed to like the idea. All phase ships have terrible capacity, and having a phase freighter (or at least one with decent capacity like a hybrid instead of almost none) or even the planet-killer hauling cruiser for black-ops raids would be nice. Hoping for more phase ships next release.
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Does the Buffalo(A) count? As far as Vanilla civies go it's the best ship around with a built-in militarised.
Add insulated engines + sensors and you get the closest thing to a stealth cargo.
However it's true that the tanker family is quite sparse, it makes it hard to have themed fleets of midline or high-tech, civilian ships don't exactly need varied choices since the only way for them to enter combat is through a big mistake so them being mostly available through mods is perfectly fine.
But yes stealth and exploration variants would be really welcome (at the cost of reduced holds compared to bare-bones ones of course, with the +2 logistics in consideration) along with the trail and paint to go with it^^
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More upped version of tarsus would be cool - it is the only freighter which can survive retreat due to burn drive and some armor/pd.
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Not a fan of player having Remanant ships.
Those are super-advanced designs with powerful AI's. The player being able to control them makes the player a super-genius that knows more about technolgoy than all the scientists in the sector together.
The player already can assign alpha cores to control industries or entire planets. A droneship is, by comparison, a walk in the park, it's just that same core slapped into a spaceship that it can control. People in the core worlds don't do it, because, you know, it's grossly illegal under Domain law and the Hegemony and Luddic Church would immediately attack.
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If high tech got phase freighters, I would like them to be rare in NPC fleets, or in general, fitting with smuggler ideals of being hard to find.
Back in 0.7 when phase initially got their time dilation mechanic, I was using the Approlight mod to fight against and their phase freighters were the most annoying things because they basically guaranteed that I wouldn't be able to get nearly as much supplies from their fleets as I could from other fleets because aside from targeted overload system on afflictor I couldn't do anything to them and had to resort to using pursuit auto resolve to maximize what I could get from them. Lots of phase freighters might be bad too for those instances where the AI is forced to do battle with civilian ships until it gets its DP low enough for pursuit mode because such an engagement would naturally involve a fair amount of waiting.
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High tech phase freighters would be more fitting of military secret operations. For example Tritachyon sends expeditions into deep space. They generally don't want to be found with a pile of precious tech, so a fleet with insulated engines and phase freighters would make sense. Any faction attempting large scale secret missions would also want some kind of stealthy marine ship, phase transports are an excellent possibility.
It's pretty much impossible to catch a phase ship in pursuit, except by chasing it until it breaks down. The closest in game option is to harry an enemy fleet, until they can't summon the CR to race away anymore. That kind of drama could be very annoying if phase freighters were abundant.
It'd make sense that phase freighters are too rare to be found as ordinary smugglers. Such a ship would only be deployed when the loot is precious and is better off hidden than announcing it with a huge fleet. This does two good things: 1) it reduces the drama associated with annoying, difficult to catch ships and 2) It means that when you do find them, they're guaranteed to have something good. Like a loot goblin or special treasure chest or something.
auto pursuit
I'm not really a fan of the auto pursuit system ignoring key escape factors such as speed. Phase freighters would get hurt even more because they depend entirely on speed to escape.
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Only the 5 biggest sensor profile matters, so unless the fleet is mostly made out of phase ships, it wouldn't affect the sensor profile of the fleet. Phase ships only affect sensor profile if otherwise they would had been top 5 sensor profile. 5 destroyers and 25 military subsystemed Buffaloes are just as stealthy as 5 destroyers and 25 phase buffaloes. I can't see much use of phase frigates but to be able to safely retreat whilst all other freighters get destroyed, or as dedicated smuggling fleet.
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High tech phase freighters would be more fitting of military secret operations.
In my case, stealth raiding blueprints from a heavily guarded worlds like Sindria or Culann without a fight.
Re: phase frigates
With hullmods, they become your haulers, either for marines or cargo. When I wanted to bring a phase fleet to raid Sindria/Culann, I had a bunch of Afflictors built/salvaged for Reaper cheese duty. As the bulk of my phase ships, they were at hand for instant conversion from Reaper cheese delivery platform to improved marine haulers. (I need some ground attack power to steal blueprints reliably enough.)
I would like to have the equivalent of phase Mule or Apogee. Something with respectable if not optimal capacity for black-ops, like blueprint raids.
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Some high tech support ship options:
1) As mentioned, a low sensor profile ship like a colossus but with reduced cargo capacity, increased burn rate, and perhaps better shielding. Notably more expensive, best used for smugglers
2) An capital sized exploration ship with high fuel capacity, built in surveying and salvage gear, improved sensors, and perhaps a ox style burn rate improver... but with quite high maintenance and limited combat performance
3) A fuel tanker with less fuel capacity than the prometheus but with both a nav system and a system like the ox, so it speeds up your whole fleet
4) A ship that slowly generates fuel on the fly. Not enough to sustain a whole fleet, but enough that you might have it for emergencies, and over time it would pay for itself (but that would take quite a while)
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A ship that slowly generates fuel on the fly.
Ships use antimatter fuel. How are they supposed to find any decent source of antimatter, other than by flying directly into a star/black hole?
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A ship that slowly generates fuel on the fly.
Ships use antimatter fuel. How are they supposed to find any decent source of antimatter, other than by flying directly into a star/black hole?
Insert Synchrotron Core, insert technobabble about a fuel loop, profit?
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Fuel is made out of volatiles so frankly most gas giants when surveyed should do.
Wasn't there a mod that did that? Along with some idea that it might even be adapted into the base game or am I misremembering?
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Even if a refueling ship is possible, the idea of grabbing a coffee while you wait for fuel to recharge sounds pretty boring. The current distress system is much nicer, since you can either recover quickly or at least get a quick painless death at the hands of pirates.
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Seems like an intersting idea. No need to dismiss the refueling idea out of hand. If you think it is waiting would be a problem, then to solve that, flying into the corona of a sun to add fuel would essentially convert supplies/combat readiness into fuel and can be done as a fast interaction. I would prefer such an idea to be an ability or available with a rare item like synchroton core rather than tied to a ship.
Anyways, I don't really like the idea of phase freighters. They would have to be rare, as they have such obvious and specific use cases, otherwise you'll have to wonder why everybody aren't using fleets of them to smuggle and raid each other.
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I don't really like the idea of phase freighters. They would have to be rare,
Rarity is more a case of understanding that phase ships are very difficult and annoying class of ships to chase down. Annoying ships should at least be rewarding ships, or they'd drag down the gameplay. There's also the very contradictory nature of them high tech and purpose built for illegal operations, yet beyond the budget and tech expertise of ordinary pirates. That kind of contradiction means they wouldn't be found on public markets (why would someone advertise an illegal smuggling ship?), rare on pirate markets(probably heavily d-modded) and almost exclusively locked behind some kind of military market. The main customer for a phase freighter has a high bankroll and a need for secrecy, that's textbook military(and discerning CEO) niche.
There are any number of factors to prevent phase freighters from being a pure upgrade over ordinary freighters. The most obvious solution is cost. Up front costs aren't free, and monthly upkeep and fuel aren't free either. A trader hoping to maximize profit would not be too happy about paying more money per cargo. The player smuggler would definitely appreciate extra smuggling potential though, and they'd certainly enjoy having more shielded cargo hold options for their contraband.
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I mean, with all the pirates about there's plenty of reason to want a phase hauler for more than just smuggling.
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I have no problem with a phase hauler. I imagine its capacity would be no better than the likes of a warship with above average capacity like Mule or Apogee (or even Odyssey), and its maintenance would be high like other phase ships. With a design like that, people would use phase ships either for easy smuggling (illegals or planet-killer) or black-ops raids, not for day-to-day hauling of groceries or other consumer goods because the civilians do it cheaper.
It stinks when I do a raid with a full phase fleet and only have enough room for the blueprints (what I really want) and not the vendor trash along with it (hey - I will take free money) because phase ships' capacities are awful, significantly less than normal warships.
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I mean, with all the pirates about there's plenty of reason to want a phase hauler for more than just smuggling.
Such as?
I don't really like the idea of phase freighters. They would have to be rare,
Rarity is more a case of understanding that phase ships are very difficult and annoying class of ships to chase down. Annoying ships should at least be rewarding ships, or they'd drag down the gameplay. There's also the very contradictory nature of them high tech and purpose built for illegal operations, yet beyond the budget and tech expertise of ordinary pirates. That kind of contradiction means they wouldn't be found on public markets (why would someone advertise an illegal smuggling ship?), rare on pirate markets(probably heavily d-modded) and almost exclusively locked behind some kind of military market. The main customer for a phase freighter has a high bankroll and a need for secrecy, that's textbook military(and discerning CEO) niche.
There are any number of factors to prevent phase freighters from being a pure upgrade over ordinary freighters. The most obvious solution is cost. Up front costs aren't free, and monthly upkeep and fuel aren't free either. A trader hoping to maximize profit would not be too happy about paying more money per cargo. The player smuggler would definitely appreciate extra smuggling potential though, and they'd certainly enjoy having more shielded cargo hold options for their contraband.
Try again but this time don't snip off the part that explains the rest of the sentence.
A single phase freighter is virtually useless in a fleet with other ships and normal freighters. Their sensor profile of 0 only helps to avoid patrols only if they are within the top 5 sensor profile. It can help to flee pursuits, but what's the point of every other fuel and freighter gets run down and destroyed? Phase freighters would only be useful if the fleet is very small in the first case, or if it is the majority of your freighter ships in the second case.
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I mean, with all the pirates about there's plenty of reason to want a phase hauler for more than just smuggling.
Such as?
Apparently I never answered this (must of not hit post), but as implied in my statement: to avoid pirates and other hostile forces.
Being hard to detect is useful for more than smuggling when the galaxy is an active war zone after all :P
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But as I written previously, their sensor profile of 0 only helps to avoid patrols only if they would otherwise be within the top 5 sensor profile.
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But as I written previously, their sensor profile of 0 only helps to avoid patrols only if they would otherwise be within the top 5 sensor profile.
Yeah, but for a stealth fleet, that would probably be otherwise true. Especially if all the ships are phase.
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If we are adding a hi-tech freighter/hauler, why not make it resupply ships that improve the logistics of your fleet? With the high-tech ships able to provide a logistics experience far above what your average private admiral enjoys, the bonuses to fleet quality should be reflected in improved CR, and lower maintenance costs.
Here's a few rough ideas for ships in the hi-tech freighter category, more to see how their hullmods work/interact.
Destroyer size:
Rainier class supply ship
- Essentially an uptech'd Mule in general hull profile with increased shields but loses the medium universal for two small universal mounts.
- Uses a flare launcher as System.
- Built in hullmod: Logistics Center: Increases Combat Readiness by 5% per ship (max 20%).
Cruiser size:
Hayasui class fleet supply ship
- Similar profile to a slower Heron, retaining the two fighter bays but losing the medium universal for 2x small universal mounts. Has a lot more cargo space and fuel space.
- Uses Maneuvering Jets as System.
- Built in hullmod: Combat Resupply System - increases the peak performance time of ships in the fleet (+50/40/35/30% based on hull size).
- Rapidly diminishing returns when multiple are involved, and the resupply ships need to deploy to have the bonus take effect.
Capital size:
Benevolent class fleet repair ship
- Kind of like an Astral, but has only 2 fighter bays and no large missiles (medium missiles instead) but this results in having vastly more cargo space.
- Built in hullmod: Maintenance Drone System - decreases maintenance supply costs by 10% across the fleet (does not stack). Decreases repair supply consumption by 15% (same supply cost though).
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I'm not too sure about using logistics ships to a huge number of generic fleet bonuses. If the logistic ship enables a unique and fun play style that's great, but stack enough random bonuses and the ships will feel like boring, mandatory additions to the fleet. Some of the fleet talents also feel kind of mandatory but not in the best way, because a generic increase in fuel or supplies doesn't enable more play styles. They just act as money multipliers.
But as I written previously, their sensor profile of 0 only helps to avoid patrols only if they would otherwise be within the top 5 sensor profile.
Yes, but that still upgrades the options for a stealth fleet from "impossible" to "possible". Phase ships have atrocious cargo and fuel capacity, but filling up with civilian cargo ships will ruin your sensor profile. Completing a stealth fleet with stealth ships is the best option.
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I literally wrote that earlier.
or if it is the majority of your freighter ships in the second case.
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I like the idea of a ship that can fly through a corona and generate fuel, at the cost of fleet damage. Could be an interesting mechanic for emergencies.
I think the idea of phase freighters makes sense, but they should be lower capacity and costlier than normal freighters. This makes them great if your whole fleet is a smuggling fleet, but not so useful if you just want something to hold more cargo.