Why would I use this ship? I don't understand when it would fill a needed role or function. It's the only ship I'd never buy.
Am I missing this function or something that justifies it's use? Specifics please.
Good tank. Good cargo capacity. Good surveying equipment.
Venture is a good girl.
It's a bigger Shepard frigate with the heaviest armour in a civilian ship with fast missile racks. Their purpose is an anchor, they take the hits that your more important stuff cannot while also having build in functionality for out of combat purposes.
Salvage and explore with them, use them to protect your stuff from the minor threats on the rim, never ever try to use them as a proper combat cruiser.
They serve as the best non-military cruiser available which while in the current game isn't much of a niche due to how you can buy battleships off of the civilian market, it used to be one of the best commonly available cruiser sized vessels. Or well.... the only available one outside of the black-market.
Are they good? No. Are they relatively cheap and common? Yes. They don't serve very well in AI hands, but if you want to spam medium missiles then they can server you well as a player controlled brick. Few things in space are capable of surviving rapid fire torpedoes after all.
Good tank. Good cargo capacity. Good surveying equipment.
Venture is a good girl.
Good tank. Good cargo capacity. Good surveying equipment.
Venture is a good girl.
Best survey equipment in the base game!
Low deployment point cost! Second lowest DP for a cruiser in the game (but the colosus mk 2/3 barely count).
Capital quality armor and hull tank!
I feel sorry for the onslaught. Every now and then I go sim an wolf killing an Onslaught just to make sure my reflexes aren't getting too slow. It's a perennial favourite choice of ship to destroy in sim videos. There's a video of a Buffalo mk II beating an onslaught out there somewhere I am sure.
The moment I hear apogee is better in anything I know lots of alcohol must be involved.
Yeah lets play the cruiser that is basically a slow plasma cannon, because the plasma cannon is so so great to begin with on a slow ship no less. The sunder already has more firepower than the apo. Large + double small front is simply not useable in any realistic sense. For memes - sure.
The moment I hear apogee is better in anything I know lots of alcohol must be involved.
Yeah lets play the cruiser that is basically a slow plasma cannon, because the plasma cannon is so so great to begin with on a slow ship no less. The sunder already has more firepower than the apo. Large + double small front is simply not useable in any realistic sense. For memes - sure.
Apogee is better.
Please don't say Tugs, as no one using a Venture is gonna be using tugs lol.Not that early in the game when one may consider using Venture. The fuel use is too much very early in the game. Tugs are for later in the game when player has money to burn for as much fuel as he wants.
It's damn speed of 7 kills me, feels like a forced upgrade.
AI kites just fine in solo fights, which early game fights may devolve into. (My smaller ships run out of PPT, leaving me with my Apogee against one or two small enemy ships that keep backpedaling but will not give up the fight.) I had to corner some enemy ships before my Apogee could kill them to end the fight.
I was about to write a post that you might want to buy a Venture if you wanted the capabilty of surveying and fighting and didn't have an Apogee available. And then I remembered that Surveying Equipment is a hullmod that you can just put onto all your logistical ships.
@Locklave. You like the Mule. Really? Why? It's basically like the Venture. You only use it because you happened to pick it up for "free". I regard them as nearly identical in role and style. What is it about the Mule? More cargo space? Shielded Cargo Hull? Faster? Does that reach the tipping point in usefulness?
I'm pretty sure there's something broken with patrols scanning you. Nothing ever comes of it. I fly into ports with AI cores and no shielded cargo, I trade on the black market with transponder on. Nothing ever happens to me, they just scan and find nothing and let me go. I don't consider shielded hull mods to be relevant in any way.This is probably because you have good relations with the faction
I've had them try to confiscate my AI cores (which I always carry because reasons) exactly once since I've been playing on this patch, and I do NOT always have good relations. Most of the time maybe, but I think the behavior might be a little broken in your favor right now.I'm pretty sure there's something broken with patrols scanning you. Nothing ever comes of it. I fly into ports with AI cores and no shielded cargo, I trade on the black market with transponder on. Nothing ever happens to me, they just scan and find nothing and let me go. I don't consider shielded hull mods to be relevant in any way.This is probably because you have good relations with the faction
To be fair the Apogee doesn't have salvaging, but you can just as easily just get some shepherds for that anyway. Assuming you find a decent energy weapon for her to use, otherwise you aren't as better equipped then the venture anyway.Apogee is not a civilian ship
Is the Apogee a civilian ship? I don't recall it having the civilian hull mod?
I'd love to see a buffed up venture, possibly with more built in minding drone wings to make it a drone carrier! If I could mod I'd love to make a civilian-war fleet with overhauled designs like the TEC from sins of a solar empire, or the mon calamari from starwars.
To be fair the Apogee doesn't have salvaging, but you can just as easily just get some shepherds for that anyway. Assuming you find a decent energy weapon for her to use, otherwise you aren't as better equipped then the venture anyway.Apogee is not a civilian ship
Is the Apogee a civilian ship? I don't recall it having the civilian hull mod?
I'd love to see a buffed up venture, possibly with more built in minding drone wings to make it a drone carrier! If I could mod I'd love to make a civilian-war fleet with overhauled designs like the TEC from sins of a solar empire, or the mon calamari from starwars.
Maybe some ships are just suppose to suck. The Pirate Wolf is downright inferior, but you can find it almost everywhere. Yeah it only takes 5 minutes of looking around to find a proper Wolf, but it takes less than one minute to find a pirate one.
Same for the Venture, it takes about 60 minutes to find a decent Apogee, but 10 minutes to find a decent Venture, so if you aren’t too picky you can make do with Venture, and I think that’s what Venture is for.
Maybe some ships are just suppose to suck. The Pirate Wolf is downright inferior, but you can find it almost everywhere. Yeah it only takes 5 minutes of looking around to find a proper Wolf, but it takes less than one minute to find a pirate one.
Same for the Venture, it takes about 60 minutes to find a decent Apogee, but 10 minutes to find a decent Venture, so if you aren’t too picky you can make do with Venture, and I think that’s what Venture is for.
But Venture isn't like a weaker Apogee. A Pirate Wolf is worse then a normal wolf but it's still a good ship, but Venture is junky.
Maybe it just exists to be space garbage?
Why the Venture exists is a very good question at this point. It should be justified in Lore or mechanics in some way.It is. It exists as a fallback option for any faction without access to heavy industry, so they have at least one ship capable of being an anchor in thier fleets.
The Venture is actually a civillian ship. You need to waste DP on Militarized Subsystems or else you get ganked by pirate patrols due to 7 burn (without Military systems) and high sensor profile.You can run from almost anything with burn 7 ships. I regularly build fleets around Colossi because they're the biggest thing capable of burn 7 without having to spend dock slots (which I want for other things), and have had no issues running when needed.
Plus without it you get huge costs due to it being a civillian hull.
Why the Venture exists is a very good question at this point. It should be justified in Lore or mechanics in some way.It is. It exists as a fallback option for any faction without access to heavy industry, so they have at least one ship capable of being an anchor in thier fleets.
Venture is supposed to be the poverty option for cruisers, in the same way Buffalo II is for destroyers, and Condor is for carriers. And the same way that all of them are fodder for the player to beat on in the early game.
As to why you'd want to build it over other ships, you probably wouldn't unless it was the only thing of it's size you had access to. Eg; running a heavy industry without any extra blueprints, something that happens only if you build a colony right at the start of the game, and do zero exploring.The Venture is actually a civillian ship. You need to waste DP on Militarized Subsystems or else you get ganked by pirate patrols due to 7 burn (without Military systems) and high sensor profile.You can run from almost anything with burn 7 ships. I regularly build fleets around Colossi because they're the biggest thing capable of burn 7 without having to spend dock slots (which I want for other things), and have had no issues running when needed.
Plus without it you get huge costs due to it being a civillian hull.
Burn 7 is not an issue for the Venture, unless you're obsessing about the highest possible speeds. In which case most cruisers will not be suitable for you either. This is quite an unfair standard to hold against one ship.
CivGrade doesn't increase costs in any way. Unless you're counting the increase from the military conversion, which again is unfair as it's not a requirement.
You can run from almost anything with burn 7 ships. I regularly build fleets around Colossi because they're the biggest thing capable of burn 7 without having to spend dock slots (which I want for other things), and have had no issues running when needed.
Burn 7 is not an issue for the Venture, unless you're obsessing about the highest possible speeds. In which case most cruisers will not be suitable for you either. This is quite an unfair standard to hold against one ship.
CivGrade doesn't increase costs in any way. Unless you're counting the increase from the military conversion, which again is unfair as it's not a requirement.
12 max speed is... who would even play like this?This is why I put Augmented Engines at everything with burn less than 8, even if it hurts battleships. Well, I could bring more tugs, but that hurts more, especially without Navigation. (Six tugs for burn 7 ships and no Navigation is too much fuel and fleet slots consumed.) Even burn 9 ships (or burn 8 ship with Navigation 3) need two tugs to reach 20. Before I get capitals and tugs, I have put Augmented Engines on even burn 8 ships like cruisers.
14 max speed is terrible
16 max speed is is bad but tolerable
18 max speed is decent
20 max speed is optimal
Quote12 max speed is... who would even play like this?This is why I put Augmented Engines at everything with burn less than 8, even if it hurts battleships. Well, I could bring more tugs, but that hurts more, especially without Navigation. (Six tugs for burn 7 ships and no Navigation is too much fuel and fleet slots consumed.) Even burn 9 ships (or burn 8 ship with Navigation 3) need two tugs to reach 20. Before I get capitals and tugs, I have put Augmented Engines on even burn 8 ships like cruisers.
14 max speed is terrible
16 max speed is is bad but tolerable
18 max speed is decent
20 max speed is optimal
Most importantly, less than 20 burn means more time spent babysitting worlds (mine or core), or traveling to babysit, than doing fun stuff. Even with burn 20, I still spend an unacceptably high amount of time babysitting or traveling to babysit.
Also, if player wants to sneak in a system, he really needs burn 20 to evade patrols. Patrols seem to have at least burn 18 when they charge at your fleet.
Navigation 3 is the biggest time saver. It hurts to spend three points to get the extra burn and Transverse Jump, but I finally gave in after so long. I consider that skill up there with Electronic Warfare 1 and Loadout Design 3 in terms of must-have, even if Navigation has no direct combat use.
Their are several major logistical issues with low burn speeds that shouldn't be glossed over as "obsessed with speed".Never seen this myself. I've always been able to scoot away with sustained burn @14 whenever I want. Sure there's times when you didn't see something and end up running into a huge wall of red.
- Your escape window if a fleet got close via asteroids/debris field/nebula/magnetic field/ect is tiny and nearly every pirate fleet has an equal or higher base burn. This forces more use of emergency burns to escape, wasting more fuel and supplies from CR loss.
- Low burn speed also wastes tons of supplies by costing you days of travel time.When you're flying through the edges of the sector stripping everything that isn't nailed down and ripping up whatever is, supplies are functionally limitless. And time doesn't really matter.
- You can't catch pirates or bounties easily or at all, costing you more supplies, forcing more emergency burns, costing more supplies from CR loss, costing more fuel.Stop chasing small bounties and pick on someone your own size (or bigger) then.
- Missions have timers and you might not be able to get that extra mission done if given the chance, costing you cash.I honestly don't bother with missions past the early game. I've got more interesting things to do.
- Everything takes longer to do, so in addition to not being able to do extra mission in an area because of time restraints you are also spending more time getting every mission done. Costing you cash/supplies.
- Crew costs cash every month, you get less done in the same time frame inflating your costs. 14 burn vs 20 burn is 30% more crew costs to get the same thing done, works the same for supplies.I generally don't care about missions, that's not what I'm going out to the fringe to do so it's not something I consider all that relevant. And neither cash nor supplies are limited resources.
Most importantly, less than 20 burn means more time spent babysitting worlds (mine or core), or traveling to babysit, than doing fun stuff. Even with burn 20, I still spend an unacceptably high amount of time babysitting or traveling to babysit.One of the benefits of trawling the sector is that you sweep up all the pirate and pather bases. And when they resapwn they make convenient jumping off points once you turn them in to debris. They also frequently have large bounties on them.
Also, if player wants to sneak in a system, he really needs burn 20 to evade patrols. Patrols seem to have at least burn 18 when they charge at your fleet.Yeah. Never really cared about doing this. Just about the only sneaking I do is in red beacon systems, and that kind of requires cargo space to take advantage of all the 'free' supplies and fuel floating about in those charming pale blue containers.
I've played several runs though 0.9 now and have not once seen a core world decivilise.In one game, I ignored Pirate bases for at least a year and Asharu decivilized. Ever since that incident, I have been paranoid over pirate raids against core worlds.
/snip
So, instead of killing them all you decended into paranoia?By that, I mean instead of ignoring them and doing things I want to do at my pace (like I did in the game where Asharu decivilized), I spend excessive babysitting time hunting and killing them again and again instead of doing fun things like exploring, just to prevent bad things happening to all worlds - mine or core.
So, instead of killing them all you decended into paranoia?By that, I mean instead of ignoring them and doing things I want to do at my pace (like I did in the game where Asharu decivilized), I spend excessive babysitting time hunting and killing them again and again instead of doing fun things like exploring, just to prevent bad things happening to all worlds - mine or core.
Pirates cannot be killed permanently. They also respawn very quickly. There is a reason why they have been called a zombie horde. All the player can do is play whack-a-mole with Pirates. I even tried killing all core worlds to stop the babysitting once and for all, but all that did when I succeeded was have constant pirate activity on my colonies. Kill a pirate base, one of my colonies gets pirate activity back a day later because a quota base respawned immediately. Better if other factions get the pirate activity, even if I need to put up with expeditions.
Tugs aren't that bad. They use up 5 Fuel per light year. So 3 of them is an Onslaught. If you are weakening enough capitals and cruisers that is an equivalent to the power of an Onslaught, you might as well get 3 Ox tugs instead, and when fighting, you will be less likely to lose any one ship. Or make that 2 Ox tugs for the power of a Paragon. i don't see the point of weakening your fleet so much when getting Ox tugs would simply make your fleet better.Quote12 max speed is... who would even play like this?This is why I put Augmented Engines at everything with burn less than 8, even if it hurts battleships. Well, I could bring more tugs, but that hurts more, especially without Navigation. (Six tugs for burn 7 ships and no Navigation is too much fuel and fleet slots consumed.) Even burn 9 ships (or burn 8 ship with Navigation 3) need two tugs to reach 20. Before I get capitals and tugs, I have put Augmented Engines on even burn 8 ships like cruisers.
14 max speed is terrible
16 max speed is is bad but tolerable
18 max speed is decent
20 max speed is optimal
Most importantly, less than 20 burn means more time spent babysitting worlds (mine or core), or traveling to babysit, than doing fun stuff. Even with burn 20, I still spend an unacceptably high amount of time babysitting or traveling to babysit.
Also, if player wants to sneak in a system, he really needs burn 20 to evade patrols. Patrols seem to have at least burn 18 when they charge at your fleet.
Navigation 3 is the biggest time saver. It hurts to spend three points to get the extra burn and Transverse Jump, but I finally gave in after so long. I consider that skill up there with Electronic Warfare 1 and Loadout Design 3 in terms of must-have, even if Navigation has no direct combat use.
i don't see the point of weakening your fleet so much when getting Ox tugs would simply make your fleet better.More tugs instead of more backup combat ships I can swap into? I rather have more combat ships if I can support them, especially if I plan to chain battle.
Quotei don't see the point of weakening your fleet so much when getting Ox tugs would simply make your fleet better.
More tugs instead of more backup combat ships I can swap into? I rather have more combat ships if I can support them, especially if I plan to chain battle.
2 OX tugs gives +2 burn and 10 fuel per light year(Removed previous reply since I misread, but...)
It's better to not need back up in the first place than to have available ships which are also weaker because of Augmented Drive Field.Why? That makes no sense! Back up is nice if I win a battle, but a ship got mauled. Or if I chain battled so much that one ship runs low on CR and I want another ship to use in the meantime. Or, AI officer screwed up and died, and needs a replacement now (instead of waiting an in-game week or longer for repairs). Or because Reaper Harbinger removed, I want to cheese fights with lots of Reaper Afflictors (up to the fleet cap). I think just about any other ship in the fleet is better than a tug. Maybe no ship at all if I do not need another ship. Most ships in my fleet do not even have Augmented Engines, just the slowest ones, which are like... two or three battleships, plus Astral, in my fleet.
Just increase the fleet cap from 30 to something more reasonable like lets say 60 and while your at it increase the AI fleet cap to the same number or a (much) higher one, then fly around in an invaded sectors and watch your GPU melt.Since it is not in the in-game settings, changing that feels kind of dirty. I avoid changing settings.json at all if I can help it. The only thing I touch (reluctantly) is combat speed because the game plays unbearably slow at normal speed. (Other games play faster.)
Since it is not in the in-game settings, changing that feels kind of dirty. I avoid changing settings.json at all if I can help it. The only thing I touch (reluctantly) is combat speed because the game plays unbearably slow at normal speed. (Other games play faster.)
There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
Venture in early releases was a super hybrid. It functioned more like a bigger Gemini (back when fighters were ships and not fancy missiles), and it was a good ship. Still annoyingly slow, but useful.Yes! Super Gemini is the perfect description for what the Venture used to be.
Now, it is just a meat shield that can pump out few missiles.
You said "This looks like fun", did you put me in my place yet? I'm not feeling it.Nice projection.
Nice projection.Nice cover.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
You said "This looks like fun", did you put me in my place yet? I'm not feeling it.Nice projection.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
Nice projection.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
Nice cover.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals don't change the actual mechanics even when you pretend they do?
Nice gif.(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif)Nice projection.Nice cover.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals don't change the actual mechanics even when you pretend they do?You said "This looks like fun", did you put me in my place yet? I'm not feeling it.Nice projection.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
You said "This looks like fun", did you put me in my place yet? I'm not feeling it.Nice projection.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?Nice projection.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals makes some mechanics less relevant regardless of thier existence, and vice-versa?
Nice cover.
Have you considered that having different expectations and goals don't change the actual mechanics even when you pretend they do?
(http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif)
Anyways now that that fun it over with.Screws over Talon spam as well. Feh!
A side note for next patch, Venture and Drone tender will be bad to have if you are specialized in fighters as their drones will count against the skills limit for fighters lowering the bonus on all your real fighters. I am genuinely unhappy that the Drone tender will lose some viability, the Venture is caught in the same issue.
And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
Yeah I usually never take the Venture because when I can start affording cruisers, I have a decent enough revenue stream that I never really consider the Venture. Its such a poor man's choice that its only good as a ship you salvage from a pirate bounty, from a killed off scavanger fleet, or if you find it out in space. And this is also if you have NOTHING ELSE and its your BEST ship.
If it either got the Missile Reloader system, and/or got more logistics hull mods built in (salvage gantry + surveying equipment), it would make it worth it even with its abysmal stats + civillian hull. Yet it doesn't come with either of these built in, despite it being totted as a exploration ship, so its basically bad.
And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
And yet curiously enough that doesn't mean there aren't anvils. An anvil is just a unit that can anchor the center and won't fold when the flanks are pushed. Do you just... not flank enemies when you play?
Yeah I usually never take the Venture because when I can start affording cruisers, I have a decent enough revenue stream that I never really consider the Venture. Its such a poor man's choice that its only good as a ship you salvage from a pirate bounty, from a killed off scavanger fleet, or if you find it out in space. And this is also if you have NOTHING ELSE and its your BEST ship.
I second that.If it either got the Missile Reloader system, and/or got more logistics hull mods built in (salvage gantry + surveying equipment), it would make it worth it even with its abysmal stats + civillian hull. Yet it doesn't come with either of these built in, despite it being totted as a exploration ship, so its basically bad.
Curious, my Ventures have surveying equipment ... would be rly flabbergasted if this is a mod thing.
One strategy you can try at home is to deploy your heavy ships and rally them to the side of the map, when the enemy moves in for the surround bring your reserves in to hit them from the rear! Great for short lived frigates who shouldn't be out there for too long!
One strategy you can try at home is to deploy your heavy ships and rally them to the side of the map, when the enemy moves in for the surround bring your reserves in to hit them from the rear! Great for short lived frigates who shouldn't be out there for too long!Not as effective now that you can't place rally points so close to the edge of your own deployment and your ships now kind of bounce from the edge. Doesn't even have to be "heavy" and frigates either.
Just look at Ingcom1. Isn't bait, or flank such a more useful description to strategic discussion?
And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
And yet curiously enough that doesn't mean there aren't anvils. An anvil is just a unit that can anchor the center and won't fold when the flanks are pushed. Do you just... not flank enemies when you play?
I was making fun of you, that whilst you insist something is a very real thing, you refuse to ascribe any defintion to it. So space infantry and space cavalry it is.
The AI do not flank. At least not in a purposeful way, more by accident by outnumbering and slow drifting. You can try to flank, but the AI do not have discrete concept of "anvil". You might do, and you can go ahead with it. Ships can "anchor" themselves in space just fine by repeatedly retreating themselves behind another ship.
There is no need to throw other concepts from games or real tactical concepts if they do not fit into starsector. There needs not be a "centre". There is no "folding". It's a really inflexible way of thinking. Ships are more likely to get destroyed when outnumbered or concaved. By way of example more useful concepts are those, because they describe what is actually occuring, than your own personal definitions that cannot be communicated.
________SpoilerYeah I usually never take the Venture because when I can start affording cruisers, I have a decent enough revenue stream that I never really consider the Venture. Its such a poor man's choice that its only good as a ship you salvage from a pirate bounty, from a killed off scavanger fleet, or if you find it out in space. And this is also if you have NOTHING ELSE and its your BEST ship.
I second that.If it either got the Missile Reloader system, and/or got more logistics hull mods built in (salvage gantry + surveying equipment), it would make it worth it even with its abysmal stats + civillian hull. Yet it doesn't come with either of these built in, despite it being totted as a exploration ship, so its basically bad.
Curious, my Ventures have surveying equipment ... would be rly flabbergasted if this is a mod thing.[close]
The Venture already have a missile reloader system called Fast Missile Racks. It does have Surveying Equipment innately, but it does not have salvage gantry, so if it has both without being needed to be added, that is a mod thing.
It is okay for ships to be bad as long as they still have a point. The Venture's role as envisaged in its description - a cheap base ship - is kinda irrelevant in game the way the game mechanics and economics work. Its role as a miner is also irrelevant. So the Venture is just...bad. I wish it wasnt, i have a soft spot for it.Anyways now that that fun it over with.Screws over Talon spam as well. Feh!
A side note for next patch, Venture and Drone tender will be bad to have if you are specialized in fighters as their drones will count against the skills limit for fighters lowering the bonus on all your real fighters. I am genuinely unhappy that the Drone tender will lose some viability, the Venture is caught in the same issue.
Sigh ... wish there was an option to have certain lanky ships join the fight from the sides of the map, or the enemy rear, or enemy ships joining from your rear ... sigh
SpoilerAn anvil is a ship that's not particularly fast or damaging, but it can take a lot of punishment. They hold the line and prevent other ships (including themselves) from being flanked, and if the enemy is being flanked, they prevent him from paying full attention to flankers and becoming vulnerable in the process.
A hammer is typically a ship that's fast and focused on dealing damage, be it because of burst and mobility combo, or because of its innately good offensive stats.
A distraction ship's role is to distract the enemy. It does not have to be able to sustain damage, since it's role isn't maintaining a formation, but disrupting the enemy's. It's only requirement is that it's able to survive on its own for some time on its own.
A flanker is a ship that flanks. It can be a part of the hammer, it can just be a distraction ship. If you love high tech, you can even try to create tough flanker ships and try to trap the enemy in multiple "fronts".
An anchor is a ship that allows other ships to take a breath. It typically means ships that have lots of burst just to drive the enemy flux up (and make AI cowardly), or ones that can point their guns in all directions. Long range is recommended.
Unless you provide better terms for hammer and anvil, that's what I'm going to use. It's not perfectly accurate, but when has ever warfare stopped changing?[close]
At this point I am at loss by what you mean by reloader system. I thought the Venture's ship system is a reloader system, but according to you it is not. I am obviosuly missing something. Would you care to explain?And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
And yet curiously enough that doesn't mean there aren't anvils. An anvil is just a unit that can anchor the center and won't fold when the flanks are pushed. Do you just... not flank enemies when you play?
I was making fun of you, that whilst you insist something is a very real thing, you refuse to ascribe any defintion to it. So space infantry and space cavalry it is.
The AI do not flank. At least not in a purposeful way, more by accident by outnumbering and slow drifting. You can try to flank, but the AI do not have discrete concept of "anvil". You might do, and you can go ahead with it. Ships can "anchor" themselves in space just fine by repeatedly retreating themselves behind another ship.
There is no need to throw other concepts from games or real tactical concepts if they do not fit into starsector. There needs not be a "centre". There is no "folding". It's a really inflexible way of thinking. Ships are more likely to get destroyed when outnumbered or concaved. By way of example more useful concepts are those, because they describe what is actually occuring, than your own personal definitions that cannot be communicated.
________SpoilerYeah I usually never take the Venture because when I can start affording cruisers, I have a decent enough revenue stream that I never really consider the Venture. Its such a poor man's choice that its only good as a ship you salvage from a pirate bounty, from a killed off scavanger fleet, or if you find it out in space. And this is also if you have NOTHING ELSE and its your BEST ship.
I second that.If it either got the Missile Reloader system, and/or got more logistics hull mods built in (salvage gantry + surveying equipment), it would make it worth it even with its abysmal stats + civillian hull. Yet it doesn't come with either of these built in, despite it being totted as a exploration ship, so its basically bad.
Curious, my Ventures have surveying equipment ... would be rly flabbergasted if this is a mod thing.[close]
The Venture already have a missile reloader system called Fast Missile Racks. It does have Surveying Equipment innately, but it does not have salvage gantry, so if it has both without being needed to be added, that is a mod thing.
Fast Missile Racks is a terrible ability due to how fast it makes you use up all your limited ammunition, and considering the Venture's limited mounts, it becomes completely useless after firing a few intense volleys. Instead, it should become a dedicated and affordable missile cruiser that even a civillian can afford by getting the Reloader system instead.
It has surveying equipment but Surveying by itself isn't enough to make the Venture worth its credits; it needs both Surveying and Salvage Gantry built in to offset the fact that it has a civillian hull and bad burn + its other bad stats.
This sir is what command points SHOULD be for. Not for stopping the AI from being dumb.
All ships can keep other ships "busy". A couple of tempests can usually keep any ship busy indefinitely as can a phase frigate till it runs out of CR. But you keep changing want you mean by anvil to whatever suits your purposes.
Apogee can absolutely aggresively kill ships by themselves. No need to be pre-fluxed, they simply flux and kill ships by themselves. I've made fleets out of them. (Only because the only useful cruiser blueprint I had at the time was Apogee and I wanted to fight remnant fleets. This was before their slight shield nerf, but it shouldn't change how they act too much.) Choose a Plasma Cannon on them and ignore the small frontal energy mount for best results. Their main weakness is against frigates and fighters. So give it a pair of pulse lasers and if you are really worried about fighters place a Locust SRM Launcher instead of any other large missile mount.And a feet of ventures can alpha strike down capitals with sabot/harpoon spam, but if you're using them to compliment a fleet rather than just making a fleet of them they're often is slightly different roles given that the venture is a heavy missile boat + PD and the apogee is close to jack of all, master of none.
SpoilerAn anvil is a ship that's not particularly fast or damaging, but it can take a lot of punishment. They hold the line and prevent other ships (including themselves) from being flanked, and if the enemy is being flanked, they prevent him from paying full attention to flankers and becoming vulnerable in the process.
A hammer is typically a ship that's fast and focused on dealing damage, be it because of burst and mobility combo, or because of its innately good offensive stats.
A distraction ship's role is to distract the enemy. It does not have to be able to sustain damage, since it's role isn't maintaining a formation, but disrupting the enemy's. It's only requirement is that it's able to survive on its own for some time on its own.
A flanker is a ship that flanks. It can be a part of the hammer, it can just be a distraction ship. If you love high tech, you can even try to create tough flanker ships and try to trap the enemy in multiple "fronts".
An anchor is a ship that allows other ships to take a breath. It typically means ships that have lots of burst just to drive the enemy flux up (and make AI cowardly), or ones that can point their guns in all directions. Long range is recommended.
Unless you provide better terms for hammer and anvil, that's what I'm going to use. It's not perfectly accurate, but when has ever warfare stopped changing?[close]
Those are just your personal definitions for your personal tactics. And different from Goumindou's anyhow. And mine. No one in modern military parlance would ever use hammer and anvil. In fact, there is no record of its use in antiquity. It's a phrase of armchair generals with doubtful etymology in wargaming.
___________At this point I am at loss by what you mean by reloader system. I thought the Venture's ship system is a reloader system, but according to you it is not. I am obviosuly missing something. Would you care to explain?And yet curiously enough, there appears to be a lack of space cavalry charging into space infantry in the game so far.There is no anvil in this game. There is no infantry moral system. You will care for any ship that dies if you are before the point where you don't need to care about money.
There absolutely is such thing as an anvil in this game.
And yet curiously enough that doesn't mean there aren't anvils. An anvil is just a unit that can anchor the center and won't fold when the flanks are pushed. Do you just... not flank enemies when you play?
I was making fun of you, that whilst you insist something is a very real thing, you refuse to ascribe any defintion to it. So space infantry and space cavalry it is.
The AI do not flank. At least not in a purposeful way, more by accident by outnumbering and slow drifting. You can try to flank, but the AI do not have discrete concept of "anvil". You might do, and you can go ahead with it. Ships can "anchor" themselves in space just fine by repeatedly retreating themselves behind another ship.
There is no need to throw other concepts from games or real tactical concepts if they do not fit into starsector. There needs not be a "centre". There is no "folding". It's a really inflexible way of thinking. Ships are more likely to get destroyed when outnumbered or concaved. By way of example more useful concepts are those, because they describe what is actually occuring, than your own personal definitions that cannot be communicated.
________SpoilerYeah I usually never take the Venture because when I can start affording cruisers, I have a decent enough revenue stream that I never really consider the Venture. Its such a poor man's choice that its only good as a ship you salvage from a pirate bounty, from a killed off scavanger fleet, or if you find it out in space. And this is also if you have NOTHING ELSE and its your BEST ship.
I second that.If it either got the Missile Reloader system, and/or got more logistics hull mods built in (salvage gantry + surveying equipment), it would make it worth it even with its abysmal stats + civillian hull. Yet it doesn't come with either of these built in, despite it being totted as a exploration ship, so its basically bad.
Curious, my Ventures have surveying equipment ... would be rly flabbergasted if this is a mod thing.[close]
The Venture already have a missile reloader system called Fast Missile Racks. It does have Surveying Equipment innately, but it does not have salvage gantry, so if it has both without being needed to be added, that is a mod thing.
Fast Missile Racks is a terrible ability due to how fast it makes you use up all your limited ammunition, and considering the Venture's limited mounts, it becomes completely useless after firing a few intense volleys. Instead, it should become a dedicated and affordable missile cruiser that even a civillian can afford by getting the Reloader system instead.
It has surveying equipment but Surveying by itself isn't enough to make the Venture worth its credits; it needs both Surveying and Salvage Gantry built in to offset the fact that it has a civillian hull and bad burn + its other bad stats.
I don't see a point for a a dedicated and affordable civilian missile cruiser. Why not an affordable civilian missile capital ship? Or any one of hundred of roles? Why that one in particular? Venture does the role of a civilian cruiser well enough; being both a cruiser and more available in civilian markets.
Venture needs Salvage Gantry and proper fighter slots, not limited to mining drones.But for what? It is only 15 DP.
Venture needs Salvage Gantry and proper fighter slots, not limited to mining drones.But for what? It is only 15 DP.
You already have capital ship armor - if you think that is useable or not is a thing about armor, not the venture
You have great ability + great missile slots for that size
Nice dual medium ballistic
You have distincticly low speed which is neither a plus or a negative - if you want something to accompany your onslaught it will work better with ventures than with falcon P.
All things considered I think it might be time for a proper ship showcase for the venture.
I've tried that before. Like I said, I didn't have any other cruiser blueprints and I wanted to fight remnant fleets. Their missiles get shot down and is extremely vulnerable to fighters. Even if you could alpha strike like you said, what happens next? Ventures are too slow to comfortable retreat. Lose all the ships?Apogee can absolutely aggresively kill ships by themselves. No need to be pre-fluxed, they simply flux and kill ships by themselves. I've made fleets out of them. (Only because the only useful cruiser blueprint I had at the time was Apogee and I wanted to fight remnant fleets. This was before their slight shield nerf, but it shouldn't change how they act too much.) Choose a Plasma Cannon on them and ignore the small frontal energy mount for best results. Their main weakness is against frigates and fighters. So give it a pair of pulse lasers and if you are really worried about fighters place a Locust SRM Launcher instead of any other large missile mount.And a feet of ventures can alpha strike down capitals with sabot/harpoon spam, but if you're using them to compliment a fleet rather than just making a fleet of them they're often is slightly different roles given that the venture is a heavy missile boat + PD and the apogee is close to jack of all, master of none.
Venture needs Salvage Gantry and proper fighter slots, not limited to mining drones.
Id rather the removal of the fighter bay all together if it gives the Venture a Salvage Gantry
I think the salvage gantry might be a bridge too far considering this is the 'base' level cruiser in the game. It can already reduce survey costs.
But I very much agree that an unlocked fighter bay like versions past, would make the ship somewhat more attractive for general use.
One of the reasons the Venture exists in the fashion it does and is assigned to the default base_bp, is to give in-game factions without access to a heavy industry the ability to field at least something that does a passable job of being a fleet anchor.
With the limited ability act as a carrier, the Venture would be a little more effective in this role for the tradeoff that the OP cost of the fighters still has to come out of the ship's loadout thus reducing it's already limited combat potential. This incentivises the use of 'cheap' fighters, but still leaves the option to specialise in that direction if desired.
If this is still too unbalanced for your taste, you could also consider removing the fighter bay and giving the Venture a built-in converted hangar. This would effectively restrict it's use of bombers, and even further incentivise the use of the cheaper fighters.
Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine neededIt also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition. There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...
Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine neededIt also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition. There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...
On the other hand, if we did swap the Venture's surveying equipment for a salvage gantry, I'd consider it a net upgrade; you can add surveying equipment after-market if you need to, but the salvage gantry is only available as a built-in hull mod.
Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine neededIt also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition. There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...
On the other hand, if we did swap the Venture's surveying equipment for a salvage gantry, I'd consider it a net upgrade; you can add surveying equipment after-market if you need to, but the salvage gantry is only available as a built-in hull mod.
I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies. I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?
I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies. I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?
Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?
That sounds like unproductive busy work.
I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies. I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?
Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?
That sounds like unproductive busy work.
Check the sell price for surveying data. The only one not really worth the time and effort are class 1 worlds. If you have a fully decked out surveying fleet, where even gas giants only take 5 supply, you can make a LOT of money surveying. Plenty of class 4 gas giants, volcanic worlds, toxic worlds, barren worlds even. Ultrarich veins can happen anywhere.
My exploration fleet tends to be an Apogee if I can find one, four Ventures, assorted support ships like a few Drams and cargo haulers, all with Surveying equipment if I can find it. Given how bountiful some systems can be, with derelict ships and probes, and other such things, it's quite easy to hurl myself off into the far corners of space and only be limited by how much stuff I can carry, not the size of my fuel tank. Give them all militarized subsystems, have the +1 burn skill, and suddenly you can outrun anything you don't want to fight, and chase down anything you do want to fight.
The Venture will never be a dedicated combat craft, and that's alright. It was not designed as one. It's a civilian exploration craft, and should be used as such. Militarized subsystems allow it to explore better, not fight better. Less sensor profile, more burn means I can hope planets faster, and cram more crew into less ships when I want to finally settle somewhere.
I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies. I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?
Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?
That sounds like unproductive busy work.
Check the sell price for surveying data. The only one not really worth the time and effort are class 1 worlds. If you have a fully decked out surveying fleet, where even gas giants only take 5 supply, you can make a LOT of money surveying. Plenty of class 4 gas giants, volcanic worlds, toxic worlds, barren worlds even. Ultrarich veins can happen anywhere.
My exploration fleet tends to be an Apogee if I can find one, four Ventures, assorted support ships like a few Drams and cargo haulers, all with Surveying equipment if I can find it. Given how bountiful some systems can be, with derelict ships and probes, and other such things, it's quite easy to hurl myself off into the far corners of space and only be limited by how much stuff I can carry, not the size of my fuel tank. Give them all militarized subsystems, have the +1 burn skill, and suddenly you can outrun anything you don't want to fight, and chase down anything you do want to fight.
The Venture will never be a dedicated combat craft, and that's alright. It was not designed as one. It's a civilian exploration craft, and should be used as such. Militarized subsystems allow it to explore better, not fight better. Less sensor profile, more burn means I can hope planets faster, and cram more crew into less ships when I want to finally settle somewhere.
I feel like this is the key. A ship really only needs one purpose to be the reason it exist. While being common may not be good enough for some people to justify getting it themselves, it could be good enough for others to pick up the ship instead. After all, that's why you will more likely then not see this ship in fleets and it's the reason the ship is phased out later for better options when available. The only reason I would feel like the ship needs to be rebalanced is if there was a ship that was equally available that was superior to it in all aspects (price, fighting aiblity, usefulness). As long as there's a plus side to a ship verses another (even it being just being more common), then it's fine in my books.
Did you know the price difference between a Dominator and a Venture on the black market is only 30k? Buy a Dominator and stick a Survey mod on it. It's a superior ship in every single way, not just a little better either. Vastly superior. It also doesn't need militarization to have 8 burn, so the survey space is paid for if that was the ships secondary role. 2 more fuel and 10 more supplies but the fighting power increase clearly pays for the costs. A venture would need fighting ships to make up for it's weakness in combat, nothing costing 10 supplies and 2 fuel is gonna equal that difference.
30k difference in cost is a joke and you could do this exact same thing with other cheaper cruisers.
Survey and Militarization are both logistical hull mods so it'd be a direct trade 1 for 1.
The Venture needs to be far cheaper or far more useful. Who would disagree?
Survey equipment is better then I initially thought, which is good to know. Thank you to those sharing their knowledge on that matter. Not sure if it's better then Gantry, I think that's more a play style then a mechanics issue.
Having dedicated haulers and dedicated combat ships is better on both accounts, I think most of the hybrid ships are a trap.
Which is a classic discussion. Specialists vs generalists.
Having dedicated haulers and dedicated combat ships is better on both accounts, I think most of the hybrid ships are a trap.
Having dedicated haulers and dedicated combat ships is better on both accounts, I think most of the hybrid ships are a trap.
- Early to mid game you take the best you can get even if it's sub optimal. Early to mid game I use tons of (P) Mules for reasons I outlined, hauling/fighting not great at anything but solid. General function is needed as you lack both fighting and support. Mostly because Dedicated ships are not available/reasonable for cash reasons. In some cases mod BP are required for them to be useful/viable enough to shoulder the upkeep.
Having dedicated haulers and dedicated combat ships is better on both accounts, I think most of the hybrid ships are a trap.
I both completely agree and completely disagree at the same time.
The stage you are at in the game greatly impacts ship choices.
- Early to mid game you take the best you can get even if it's sub optimal. Early to mid game I use tons of (P) Mules for reasons I outlined, hauling/fighting not great at anything but solid. General function is needed as you lack both fighting and support. Mostly because Dedicated ships are not available/reasonable for cash reasons. In some cases mod BP are required for them to be useful/viable enough to shoulder the upkeep.
- Late game everything can be hyper optimized. Dedicated ships rule in that environment because cost is no longer a limiting factor.
Venture feels like it should be a no brainer early/midgame, but it isn't.