Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: BlazingScribe on August 12, 2019, 07:02:20 AM
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In my most recent game I've become acquainted with both of these ships. Looking around there seems to be sentiment that both are difficult to use and are most effective both with certain builds and as the player's flagship, possibly to the point of being suburb/gamebreaking. I'm curious about how I can transform these two ships to reach their full capacity, Ideally with the Conquest fighting with aggressive broadsides and the Gryphon acting as a big-ship cracker. Any tips?
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Honest, people keep talking about the Conquest, but I don't think it's true. Both ships are at best good for bullying poorly equipped pirates, and don't fare too well vs anything more than a >300k bounty fleet.
Imo, SO Dominator is way better than Conquest now that SO is a thing, and is also cheaper. While Gryphon wouldn't be good against anything with decent shields, so you're down to using it against low tech ships with bad flux/damage ratio.
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People like to fetishisize certain ships. I am sure I would be guilty of such as well. For the most gamebreaking player ship are phase ships. Hallowed be their names.
Neither the Gryphon, nor Conquest are game breaking, but under sim conditions and such-like they can show what appears to be a great performance. In Gryphon's case, they have many missile mounts for their size and deployment points, and so under the player can theoretically kill many other ships quickly. Especially with Player Combat skills. Even so, as it isn't fast and rather large, so it will normally get destroyed before it can kill another cruiser.
In the Conquest case, there is a lot of focus on allof the ships of the Capital Ship class, and like the Odyssey it is also described as a "Battlecruiser", which means people do tend to focus a lot on what can be done with it. The Conquest can't do much in reality but snipe at long range with Gauss Cannons and retreat with Manoeuvring Jets. In general, all Capital ship class ships can be configured to seem overpowered, in various videos, especially with mods and player skills. Rarely do these videos show what the actual set up of the player and ship is.
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I'm not sure many people say that these ships are overpowered, quite the opposite in fact.
The conquest is a fast battleship with powerful broadside ballistic and missile capability. Whether as a long range sniper, or short range brawler this ship is never supposed to sit still like other capitals, just shoot and scoot around the enemy fleet. Use it to run around murdering the hell out of enemy escorts and carriers so that when the time comes the enemy battleships and heavy cruisers won't have the support to stop you. All midline ships are like this, utilizing their speed to escape danger and capitalise on enemy weaknesses. They don't out shoot anyone in a standing battle.
The Gryphon is a unique missile ship with the ability to reload it's missile mounts (I think only once per battle) and with destroyer level defences it's not a front line ship. Instead use the power of heavy missiles/torpedoes to annihilate exposed targets and then retreat to safety. It's one of the few ships that can even mount a heavy missile weapon and I believe the smallest to be able to do so. If the luddic path has ever screwed you with their converted torpedo freighters, then you KNOW what this ship can do to an unprepared enemy. Otherwise you can just utilise it as a long range support ship with which to bombard the enemy. MLRS anti-shield missiles can easily batter destroyers down, and can easily turn the tides in a cruiser battle. Swarmer missiles can easily overpower frigates and will ANNIHILATE fighters like there is no tomorrow. Just make sure to equip this ship with missile boosting mods like ECCM to make the most out of it.
I love both ships, but there aren't exactly the anvils that low tech juggernauts like the dominator or onslaught are. These ships are the hammer with which you kill the enemy and so pair with said bruisers quite nicely.
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Conquest is the best stand-off sniper and can beat every other Capital in fair 1v1 without skills on both sides if player piloted.
Though in case of Radiant, it's only possible because AI doesn't use the Radiant aggressively enough. Well, Radiant is special case anyway and is only solo-able for Paragon and Conquest among direct combat Capitals (didn't check with Astral).
Gryphon is imo lackluster. Player has better ships to pilot and AI can't do much with it.
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All player piloted capital ships can beat AI ships in "fair" 1v1 without skills.
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Hm. Well having an aggressive flagship is my preference regardless. Last campaign my flagship, even after I started introducing cruisers and a battleships to the fleet, remained the same old chain-gun/safety override hammerhead that I built up from the introduction. The XIV Legion's at my disposal were so slow and unwieldy by comparison. I think I'd take a lighter battleship if it means I can fight more aggressively and decisively.
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A well-equipped Conquest is on par with other capitals (except maybe Paragon), whether AI or player piloted. Conquest with Storm Needlers needs Aggressive officer for AI to use competently. Other longer-ranged weapons can get by with Steady officer.
Gryphon is too flimsy. Only time I use it is if I recover one early, before I find other ships, then give it Hammer Barrage to fight like a bigger Enforcer riddled with (D) mods.
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A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship. It's VERY powerful.
The same loadout will do ok in AI hands as a backline finisher that'll unload harpoons into whatever valid target. It's basically just sabots on the front, harpoon pods, and then either the mirv or the shield pressure in your large missile.
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A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship. It's VERY powerful.
Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword. Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel. I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
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I don't think either are broken, but both can be effective in either player or AI hands. The Gryphon does not operate well alone due to its low defenses, but it works well either behind or in line with other ships. There are certain Gryphon builds that can rapidly kill large ship when in player hands, but like others have pointed out phase ships are just better at it.
All a Conquest needs to be competitive with the other Capitals is Hardened Shields in order to paper over its weakness, and its impressive flux stats do the rest. At that point its main weakness it being surrounded, just like every other capital. Unlike other capitals, it is far more maneuverable. The AI pilots it just fine, though I always want 2x Heavy Blasters on the front, so that if the AI points its nose at something it will still have firepower. For large missiles I really like 2x Locust - makes it significantly worse at killing capitals, but the anti-fighter is very valuable at covering all the other ships in the fleet.
I like the Gryphon in a fleet already heavy in missiles and fighters, so that it has the benefits of saturation to protect its offense. With that: Sabots in the smalls, Locust in the Large, Harpoons in the side facing mediums is a good general purpose loadout. HVD or Heavy Needler in the turret. Locust gives fighter/frigate/destroyer suppression at all times, the sabots let it burst down an annoying ship that gets too close, and the Harpoons will help finish whatever enemy in the area gets fluxed/overloaded by allies.
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For me, the only reason I would think about using Gryphon is to have a platform that points Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reaper forward at the enemy. (Being able to use Hammer Barrage well is nice because it is the only large open market missile.) If I want homing large missile, I much rather use Apogee instead. Gryphon is too fragile to brawl up close then unload with Hammers or Reapers. (Pre-0.7.2 Aurora with large missile would have been ideal.) If I do not use Gryphon, but want to use large Hammers or Reapers, who do I use? Conquest is a bit sluggish to use a forward facing brawler. (It can do it, but not using broadsides for primary offense feels like a criminal waste.) Prometheus 2 is a bit awkward to use. Legion (XIV) is a non-renewable resource that must be found.
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Gryphon is ship that fails to live up to expectation of a dedicated missile boat.
It's gimmick is that it has a large missile mount, which in theory is great.
In practice however, large missiles are either underwhelming or situational. And have some rather large gaps in thier capabilities (there are zero large standoff missiles for example).
The only large missiles worth equipping are designed for close support or strike roles, and require the firing ship to be on or near the front line in order to be effective.
Somewhere the Gryphon is extremely unsuited for, with it's low speed, cumbersome maneuvering, low flux pool and mediocre armour.
It cannot just "dive in to snipe a ship and then retreat to safety". It is too slow, and frequently does not survive the attempt. Because it is not a front line ship. It does not belong there.
I suppose you could put SO on it as that doesn't affect missiles. But then you're playing against the Gryphon's one strength, and undermining the effectiveness (and often use) of it's autoforge system.
You could also downsize the front mount and fit medium missiles, but again doesn't make a huge amount of difference as it just doesn't have the ability use them all that well, due to still being in the 'wrong' environment.
If you relegate the Gryphon to the back lines of your fleet as missile artillery it's still not great as it only has 3 available mounts for Pilum, which for the cost of the ship is terrible.
3x medium missiles is fairly poor armament if that's all a cruiser is contributing.
And even then, you're completely sidelining the autoforge as that's irrelevant for Pilum.
The only time I ever consider using a Gryphon is if I'm at exactly the right stage of the game to support cruisers, and have not yet found anything better for missile throwing.
I have used one as a flagship exactly once. It was not a great experience. Slow. Fragile. Can't defend itself. Depends totally on fleet support for continued existence, which makes it even more expensive to deploy than stats alone suggest. It can't even carry its own fighters without completely gimping some other aspect of its mediocrity.
Mostly they're a huge NOPE and get mulched for supplies.
I might be tempted to use a Gryphon if it had a mobility system.
Or a large mount version of the Pilum launcher existed.
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Gryphon does not want Hammers or Cyclone Reapers - neither are suited to its other stats or the fact that ECCM exists and should be installed. Luckily, Locusts are a thing and are amazing. Squalls work well until the ammo runs out (because of ECCM), but even with x4 ammo are a bit limited. Same with Hurrican MIRV - effective, but limited even with 4x ammo.
Apogee vs Gryphon for missile support:
The Apogee gives 1 Large missile slot (Locust), a very good defensive shield for tanking, and 1 Large energy for standoff support or medium assault. It will not have extended racks or ECCM in the vast majority of builds: it simply cannot afford those OP if it wants to be good at its other roles. A very good ship to have, but its missile support is significantly lesser to a Gryphon. Its tank + moderate missiles, a totally different role (and if the fleet isn't using lots of missiles in the first place, a better one, and Apogees need less escorts.)
A Gryphon gives a Locust, 2 Harpoon Pods, and 3 sabot racks, with ECCM, EMR, and then an extra reload. Its single heavy needler or HVD gives light anti-shield support. The Locust will last 4 times longer while being more effective. The 96 Harpoons it can carry (with systems) will be effective. 36 sabots means it can actually get attacked from the front several times and either beat back or even kill the enemy.
I'm not saying the Gryphon is a S-tier or anything. It has its problems - low defense chief among them - but if you want missiles, it brings a ton of high performance missiles.
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All player piloted capital ships can beat AI ships in "fair" 1v1 without skills.
Try that against Autopulse (large slots) + Graviton (med slots) + maxed out flux stats/hullmods Radiant. It is a step above a Paragon, despite being only 40 DP.
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Conquest is one of my favorite flagships. Proper battleships offer both more defense and firepower, but the conquest can still hold its own against them while being much more mobile and flexible. With the right loadout I think it can be ideal for battles against any large fleet that doesn't have too many first-rate capitals.
Some tips:
- Use each broadside for a different purpose. The obvious tactic is kenetic damage on one side and HE on the other, but that rarely works out that well in my experience. I prefer to use one side for general purpose damage (e.g. Mjolnirs) and the other side for either sniping (Gause) or clearing fighters (Devestator & Dual Flak)
- As a capitol, it has very poor strafing acceleration, so it can often be useful to face the direction you want to move. Combined with maneuvering jets and good piloting, this can allow it to be more maneuverable than many cruisers.
- Heavy machine guns in the broadside medium mounts can double as PD and very high close-quarters kenetic DPS.
- It can usually kite or outflank anything that poses a threat to it, so hull mods for speed and range are a priority.
- Its shield has an atrocious flux/damage ratio, so it's best to avoid using it as much as possible. Accelerated Shields and Heavy Armor work well together against cruisers and weak capitols, but won't help at all against Paragons or Radiants. Against ships like that Hardened Shields is all but mandatory.
Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword. Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel. I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
Yeah, this is generally how I feel about it. I've had some luck using a cautious AI piloted Gryphons with a mix of kenetic and HE MRMs linked to the same weapon group, but nothing really noteworthy.
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Just did some testing: Squall actually does have enough ammo for medium length fights. Squall + all Harpoons Gryphon with steady personality, no officer, killed 2 frigates, 2 destroyers, and a cruiser and raised the shields of several other ships. (I think it might have gotten the final punch in on an Astral as well, but there were a bunch of other ships around and I had glanced away. It helped to be sure.)
It wasn't a super long fight, so I expect the ship will run out of ammo too quickly 10 cap slug fests. But its a bit much to expect a medium (20 DP) cruiser to contribute a whole lot in those fights anyways, and it will contribute more than normal until it runs dry.
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A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship. It's VERY powerful.
Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword. Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel. I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
It is more than cheap enough as something that can alpha strike capitals. Just because the afflictor is nuts doesn't mean that the gryphon isn't good. It's a reliably safe way to nuke down any capital ship that you want or if in AI hands to have it sit behind a flux hull and nuke whatever it fluxes out.
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Huh. You know I didn't expect quite this much active debate on these ships. I guess the meta here is sill in flux even after all these years. That's pretty cool. I look forward to trying out both of these vessels in the ways suggested, albeit with some trepidation as far as the Gryphon is concerned.
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Gryphon does not want Hammers or Cyclone Reapers - neither are suited to its other stats or the fact that ECCM exists and should be installed. Luckily, Locusts are a thing and are amazing. Squalls work well until the ammo runs out (because of ECCM), but even with x4 ammo are a bit limited. Same with Hurrican MIRV - effective, but limited even with 4x ammo.
The problem with Locusts and the like is they are good enough for every ship that can use large missiles. Early in the game, all Locusts get claimed by my better ships, whether Apogee, Conquest, or Odyssey, and any junk disposable ships like that Gryphon I recovered from random derelict or first enemy expedition while I still have my Enforcer/Mule/Shrike (P) fleet get left with the leftovers (such as the Hammer Barrage for sale at Open Market).
As far as Gryphon not being well-suited for front-line. Well, that is not a big deal if the point of the ship is a disposable clunker that can do some damage before it dies (especially with low ammo for Hammer Barrage) and you do not really care much if you recover it or not, much like the numerous Enforcers and Shrikes pirates use. Compared to something like Enforcer or Mule, Gryphon is a bit better than them for grunt work early in the game, even if it does not compare favorably with Eagle or other cruiser.
Meanwhile, Starsector does not have a good ship that (is readily available and) can use dumb-fire large missiles well, which is a real shame when Hammer Barrage is open market. What good is Hammer Barrage in open market if they are no good ships that can use it effectively? The only ship that might be good enough for Hammer Barrage is Legion (XIV), and that cannot be bought or built, only a few found as treasure.
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I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks. That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
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I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks. That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
It is nice. Too bad I cannot buy or build the Legion (XIV). What I find as treasure is all I will ever get, not unlike a pristine nanoforge. Other ships that can use large missiles are either too fragile (Gryphon), need all of the OP for fighters (Astral), or awkward (other ships not LegionXIV).
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I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks. That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
To which I can only ask, how would you rate a normal Legion? In all my time playing this game I have never come across a blueprint for them, which have lead me to beleive that it is unattainable.
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You absolutely can get the normal legion's blueprint. It's rare, but not nonexistent. The XIV Legion, though, is only available in the form of a handful of derelicts.
As for how I'd rate it? In most cases I actually prefer the normal Legion over the XIV variant; hellbores instead of hammer barrages won't kill things quite as fast - but also never run out of ammunition. The XIV I have in my current game is valuable because, one, it's the first capital ship I got a hold of, and two, I'm playing around with Nexerelin's "Derelict Empire" starting scenario, for which being able to blow up battlestations is a much more immediately relevant necessity (in a normal game, I'd be going after fleets more than stations), and three, it came with a bunch of d-mods that make it very cheap to deploy but don't weaken the power of its two large missile slots. Still, it's very likely that I'll replace it with something else when I can afford to.
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I probably prefer normal Legion because with normal Legion, I can use heavy mounts for Hellbore and medium mounts for 800 range kinetics (usually Heavy Needler). Hellbore and Heavy Needler is an effective, relatively flux efficient combo that works well on Legion, and Onslaught for that matter. Basically, Normal Legion is more likely to have better shot range for brawling. With Legion (XIV), I need the front small mounts for Railguns, and use the medium mounts for Heavy Mortars, for 700 range. I occasionally use Legion (XIV) because it is the only good ship that can use dumb-fire large missiles like Hammer Barrage well. Every other good (or not sub-optimal) ship that can use large missiles has some design flaw that makes it sub-optimal or highly inconvenient to use any large dumb-fire missiles. With Apogee, its large missile points to the side - too annoying to aim some Hammers. Conquest, I want to use broadsides to pummel enemies, I do not want to sacrifice that just to fling some Hammers. Odyssey, it has free ECCM and cannot overlap the large synergy with the left, so it needs a homing missile. Astral, I need nearly all of its OP for good bombers and hullmods, with almost no OP left for any weapons beyond token PD.
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You absolutely can get the normal legion's blueprint. It's rare, but not nonexistent. The XIV Legion, though, is only available in the form of a handful of derelicts.
As for how I'd rate it? In most cases I actually prefer the normal Legion over the XIV variant; hellbores instead of hammer barrages won't kill things quite as fast - but also never run out of ammunition. The XIV I have in my current game is valuable because, one, it's the first capital ship I got a hold of, and two, I'm playing around with Nexerelin's "Derelict Empire" starting scenario, for which being able to blow up battlestations is a much more immediately relevant necessity (in a normal game, I'd be going after fleets more than stations), and three, it came with a bunch of d-mods that make it very cheap to deploy but don't weaken the power of its two large missile slots. Still, it's very likely that I'll replace it with something else when I can afford to.
I was saying that I never got a XIV legion blueprint. So it's rather pointless to compare a ship that is rare and unattainable in large numbers with one that one can obtain easily in large numbers. There's no point in making an issue with XIV Legion if Legion will suffice. If it does not, the info is not helpful to those whose RNG did not net them a XIV Legion for use against a battle station. You don't need anything particularily special against non-remnant battlestation anyways.