Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: AxleMC131 on May 31, 2019, 11:45:41 PM

Title: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: AxleMC131 on May 31, 2019, 11:45:41 PM
If this issue has been alleviated in the recent versions and I just haven't noticed, please discount this entire thread. ;D

I recall a common, minor (ish) issue prior to 0.9 with the function of post-battle ship recovery, that issue being that if your fleet was at the maximum number of ships (30 default), you would be unable to recover new ships. Perfectly reasonable, but not immediately obvious to a player who doesn't realise there's a fleet cap at all (or doesn't realise it prevents them picking up extra ships even if they aren't being used). The real issue is that the player has no way to access the fleet screen while in the post-battle recovery menu, so if they're at cap and have a tasty ship they could recover from the fight, there's no way to scuttle another ship they have to make space for the new one - ideally you would leave the recovery screen without recovering anything, then remove a ship from your fleet, then go back to the recovery screen... Except you can't do that. Darn. And sure, you can get around this just by "being prepared" and making sure to always have space in your fleet for newcomers, but again, I feel this issue is biggest for new players who don't comprehend this full extent of the fleet cap.

An option that could alleviate this somewhat is to have mothballed ships not count towards the fleet's maximum ship count, and also make post-battle recovered ships (at least if the fleet is already at cap) be automatically mothballed. Then, if the fleet is still "full" you simply lock any mothballed ships as such, and make them unable to be reinstated in combat/transport/whatever duty until another ship is removed or manually mothballed itself.

For extra points you could also have a warning popup in the Intel portion of the screen (like you would for the fleet being over cargo/fuel/crew capacity) that lets the player know "[Some number of] newly recovered ships have been mothballed... blah blah blah." You could also have a tip in there about having to mothball/remove other ships in order to unmothball the newest craft.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2019, 09:53:36 AM
The fleet cap that cuts off excess ships for recovery makes that Industry perk that increases recovery chance of enemy ships worthless.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: SCC on June 01, 2019, 10:04:17 AM
Which is why Axle suggests to make it possible to go over the cap with mothballed ships, and make all recovered ships above the cap automatically mothballed. I would rather have the player ship cap dropped entirely, I don't see a point in it.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Serenitis on June 01, 2019, 10:10:40 AM
I would rather have the player ship cap dropped entirely, I don't see a point in it.
Same.
Even the old 'logistics' system was better than a hard cap.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on June 01, 2019, 11:52:34 AM
I would rather have the player ship cap dropped entirely, I don't see a point in it.
Same.
Even the old 'logistics' system was better than a hard cap.
LOL NO.
Before it was basically required to get the logistics skills as 40 logistics wasn't anything. Like it was enough to MAYBE get a solo conquest. Oh and crew ate both supplies and log cap... Now, with the cap spam? F*** no!
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: vorpal+5 on June 01, 2019, 12:02:41 PM
Did not even know there was an hard cap. That's ugly and disappointing.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2019, 12:06:53 PM
Not fond of Logistics as implemented during 0.6.  Unskilled players had 20 or 25 DP, and max Leadership/Fleet Logistics had 100 DP, and personnel ate Logistics too.  You needed Leadership 1 or 2 just to fly a battleship solo without taking penalties.  At Leadership/Fleet Logistics 10, you could get two or three capitals or twenty frigates.  Players needed to be able to solo fleets with overpowered combat skills back then because no-Leadership characters could not use more than a few frigates or a single cruiser.

Given how 0.6.x releases worked, player needed to spend most of their DP on Atlases either to haul excessive loot (up to 0.6.2) or food runs (0.6.5).  Fighting force in an Atlas fleet was likely solo Medusa or Hyperion.

A similar version today with a much higher DP cap, enough for multiple capitals or several dozen frigates (and none eaten by personnel) would be more useful.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Thaago on June 01, 2019, 02:02:07 PM
I'm fine with the hard cap, though this suggestion would be nice for taking back ships as loot.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: AxleMC131 on June 01, 2019, 03:38:16 PM
Did not even know there was an hard cap. That's ugly and disappointing.

My point exactly. (Although if you hadn't noticed, what are you complaining about? :P jk )



I personally have no issue with the fleet cap, except for the topic of the thread, the "locking out" of post-battle ship recovery. It's a hard cap, yes, but it's also modifiable to the player's taste in the config file, as with so many other values. I like to see it as a fundamental limit to how many ships the player can, as a fleet commander, sensibly command.

That said, I would not be against fleet cap becoming a more interactive value - perhaps there could be a player skill that increases the number of ships the player can have in their fleet, or even have officers allow additional ships (so your officers act more like sub-commanders than just captains). I'm not familiar with this "logistics limit" from 0.6.x you lot speak of, since that was before I got back into the game, so I'm not sure how that went down. But that's a topic for another thread I think.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: vorpal+5 on June 01, 2019, 08:16:17 PM
Haha I'm complaining because it means I'll have to phase out some of my frigates soon for a bigger ships. Somehow I fancy having a plausible, blue-navy style, split of ships, with lighter ships escorting heavier ones.

Can't do that if with an hard cap. If the cap was expressed in logi points, then that would be different.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 01, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
I started playing after the fleet cap was implemented, what is the fleet cap trying to prevent? Just crazy frigate swarms? Supply/fuel consumption would do a decent job at preventing excessively large fleets without the hard cap I think.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Histidine on June 01, 2019, 08:34:33 PM
Also in favor of giving the hard cap the boot.
Barring that, I support Axle's suggestion.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Alex on June 01, 2019, 08:53:19 PM
The "gameplay benefit" is, more or less, saving the player from managing the loadouts on a huge number of ships. Well, that, and the UI can't really handle huge numbers of ships well (which ties into the pain of managing that many ships, too). And, well, most players aren't going to run into it.

However, ideally the game would encourage you to have fewer ships, so that running into the fleet cap was a very rare occurrence indeed, and not something you'd do.

One of the mechanics that already does this is the officer limit. Ships with officers are just way better, right, so adding combat ships beyond your officer limit has considerable diminishing returns. I'd like to add more mechanics that encourage smaller fleets (in positive, benefit-providing ways) without being too heavy-handed about it.

What would actually really help me here - if you're running up against the fleet limit, I'd love to know why that is. What are those extra ships giving you? In my mind, 11 combat ships (flagship + 10 officers) is about the most you'd really want, plus some support ships, which would leave plenty of room to spare before coming up against the limit. You might get more if you didn't invest in officer management and need to make it up through volume, but you're still limited in how much you can deploy.

So, what is it about? I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, and I'd love to hear them.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Histidine on June 01, 2019, 09:42:33 PM
Hmm, I admit that when I do run into the limit it's something I could rectify with a bit of effort.

Spoiler
Sample endgame fleet from one of my saves:

Ships 1-15 (https://i.imgur.com/TYHaQxj.jpg)
Ships 16-26 (https://i.imgur.com/0VKnAq3.jpg)
4 slots free for buying/salvaging new ships

I have 3 unofficered combat ships for a couple of reasons:
- A bit of additional force on the hardest battles
- Unofficered frigates can still help during pursuit battles, in the event I decide to manually fight one
- Sometimes I want to participate in a battle using a smaller ship, rather than spending the resources on deploying a Paragon

Granted, for the last point I could usually take one of my officers' ships, since they likely won't be deployed. (They may not always be captaining a ship I'd want to fly though)

The abundance of small support ships reflects my tendency to do things like use the same random Buffaloes I pick up early in the game all the way to the end (although I haven't done so here). They're available, they're good for carrying Surveying Equipment, and they provide capacity for all the loot I get when going on salvaging expeditions or fighting many major battles. (Yeah, I hold on to all the Metals I pick up)

Even in the pictured case, I could free up two slots by shedding the two Nebulae. I don't need the personnel capacity, and can afford to spend a bit more on any surveying I do.
I could also store the Valkyries when going salvaging and pick them up later when I actually want to raid/invade other planets, but then I'd have to remember to take them out of storage...
[close]

Suggestion: Surveying Equipment tooltip displays the current fleetwide cost reduction, somewhat like what Salvage Gantry has.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Goumindong on June 01, 2019, 10:50:24 PM
What would actually really help me here - if you're running up against the fleet limit, I'd love to know why that is. What are those extra ships giving you? In my mind, 11 combat ships (flagship + 10 officers) is about the most you'd really want, plus some support ships, which would leave plenty of room to spare before coming up against the limit. You might get more if you didn't invest in officer management and need to make it up through volume, but you're still limited in how much you can deploy.

The big things are variety.

More ships lets you have different fleets for different fights. It lets you have backup hulls in case something happens to your main. It lets you downsize to prepared ships for fights that dont require full deployment. It also lets you more effectively chain battles againt some of the lategame threats.

At the very least 40 isnt enough for frigate or small ship or low quality ship focused fleets (especially if you want to use high tech ships since their logistics profiles are not good.) Not necessarily because you can deploy 40 ships but because cycling reinforcements is a legitimate and necessary tactic when ships cannot necessarily survive a fight against capitals

The main problem is that it makes stacking small logistics ships optimal. But this could be fixed by making big logistcs ships more efficient.

Generally i dont run into the fleet limit because i dont play in ways that end up needing it. But not because i dont want to play in those ways, but because theyre not good* when constrained by the fleet limit. If a junk pirate has to transition into a higher tech or carrier focused fleet then taking the junk pirate skills hurts you in the long run because recovering and maintaining junks cannot scale on a hard fleet limit.

*they already have significant weaknesses in terms of resources. Playing junk pirate as a structure is difficult because it still takes loads of resources to get junks you lose back and flight ready.

I might even propose a change to reinforced bulkheads to fix it. “When a ship with this system is recovered by its owners it does not lose CR beyond what would have been lost in the battle”. Alternately regaining CR should not have a supply cost (yes i know this interfers with some other systems)
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 01, 2019, 11:15:22 PM
The size of the super endgame fleets is mostly what's causing me to run into the fleet cap. Either the huge 10 capital bounties or chain battling hoards of remnants in 3 ping systems. They often require multiple retreat/redeploy cycles which means having a second round of ships available is very useful. I've had battles where I cycled through my full first round of cruisers. And bringing more ships means bringing more supplies and fuel so the ship count actually scales up quite quickly. Once you get to more optimized paragon/astral fleets, you can usually kill stuff fast enough to avoid CR issues, but I definitely feel a bit restricted in fleet composition because of it.

It would be fun to mess around with destroyer/frigate swarms, and the hard cap definitely kills any d-mod swarm strategy after the early-mid game which is too bad.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: AxleMC131 on June 02, 2019, 12:40:08 AM
I definitely see why Alex is concerned about large numbers of ships being a problem for both the UI and the player's ability to manage their fleet. Further on that, we do have the option (those of us who know it exists at least) to increase the fleet cap in the config. Personally I rarely run into the fleet cap because I tend to run around with a smaller fleet anyway, but in a big, extended fight I also agree that it's incredibly nice to have multiple waves of combat ships you can cycle through.

I also have to reluctantly agree with Histidine's statement that the fleet cap hurts "frigate swarm" fleet doctrines. Not that I use that playstyle either, but just about anything that can make frigates globally more popular (since they always seem to get a lot of crap from the min-max players) is good in my books.

Regardless, I'd much prefer if the fleet cap adjustability is perhaps given as a slider in the options menu as it is for battle size? Or some other way that would make it more visible: In real terms, the fleet cap is irrelevant because it's an adjustable stat in the config, but that requires that players A) know it exists, and B) know how to adjust it. Whether that is alleviated by making it a much more obvious part of the game, or by removing it entirely, I have no problem on.

After all, it's not like there's a minimum fleet size. ;D Removing the fleet cap ain't gonna stop me using a small fleet.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: goduranus on June 02, 2019, 12:41:10 AM
The "gameplay benefit" is, more or less, saving the player from managing the loadouts on a huge number of ships. Well, that, and the UI can't really handle huge numbers of ships well (which ties into the pain of managing that many ships, too). And, well, most players aren't going to run into it.

However, ideally the game would encourage you to have fewer ships, so that running into the fleet cap was a very rare occurrence indeed, and not something you'd do.

One of the mechanics that already does this is the officer limit. Ships with officers are just way better, right, so adding combat ships beyond your officer limit has considerable diminishing returns. I'd like to add more mechanics that encourage smaller fleets (in positive, benefit-providing ways) without being too heavy-handed about it.

What would actually really help me here - if you're running up against the fleet limit, I'd love to know why that is. What are those extra ships giving you? In my mind, 11 combat ships (flagship + 10 officers) is about the most you'd really want, plus some support ships, which would leave plenty of room to spare before coming up against the limit. You might get more if you didn't invest in officer management and need to make it up through volume, but you're still limited in how much you can deploy.

So, what is it about? I'm sure there are a variety of reasons, and I'd love to hear them.

For me, the reason to play with a massive number of ships is that large ships are too slow, and not as fun to fly, so I make my fleet out of smaller ships, but have to have a lot more of them to take on enemy fleets with several capitals.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: AxleMC131 on June 02, 2019, 12:42:57 AM
For me, the reason to play with a massive number of ships is that large ships are too slow, and not as fun to fly, so I make my fleet out of smaller ships, but have to have a lot more of them to take on enemy fleets with several capitals.

I would argue that there's nothing stopping you from having a fleet of capital ships, but pilot a smaller ship yourself. I've done that plenty - it's buckets of fun ducking and diving between allied capitals in a mobile little destroyer or even a frigate.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: SCC on June 02, 2019, 12:49:28 AM
One reason is if I'm dumb and try to play with lots of small ships, except I hit the cap fairly quickly and I can't play like that, really, partially because of how many logistic ships I need.
Second is when I'm switching bases of operations and have to transport... lots of ships, in addition to my fleet.
Salvaging creates another two reasons — recovering ships (in past versions, at least) could give me 30 possible ships and I wouldn't really believe that the game could automatically show me only the "interesting" ones. The other is that since if I use heavily d-modded ships, I should get more of them than the enemy, but I quickly hit the cap with all the trash ships I have.
I consider UI as being the soft cap for how many ships you're willing to deal with already.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Serenitis on June 02, 2019, 01:46:07 AM
if you're running up against the fleet limit, I'd love to know why that is.
Junkfleets is where it hits me.
Spoiler
First, building your fleet using salvaged ships means you cannot always 'up-scale' your ships when you like in order to face a bigger threat. The only way you can do this is by bringing more ships. Which may not be possible due to the cap.
Or forces you into a dilemma where you need to bring more fighting ships, but if you do so you won't have enough civilian ships to support them for long enough to get them there.
Not so much of a issue for colony defence, but bounties can sometimes be a problem as they can spawn quite some distance away. And 'red' systems can be literally anywhere.

Then there's the previously mentioned battle chains, which are especially rough on junk ships smaller than thier targets as they have to use things like SO to fight at anywhere close to parity. So multiple ships for replacement in-battle may be something that you have to consider in your fleet.

Frigates are useful in any fleet as fast support ships, and especially if you find yourself in the role of the pursuer.
But to be useful you'll need at least 4 (2 for each side of a pursuit) otherwise they can't really do anything other than scoot around and vaguely poke at things.
It this worth 'spending' 13% of your total fleet on? I don't want to say no, but I can't say yes.

Recovering assets as mentioned in the OP is another big hit for the industry focused player, as thier fleet is likely going to be made up of a larger number of damaged ships. And not being able to recover useful random floating ships when the opportunity arises is less than ideal.

And then there's the whole reason some players are out exploring the fringes of the sector; finding somewhere to settle.
This involves lot of travelling, so you'll need lot of fuel. And a half-decent amount of speed - burn 7 is the lowest speed that still allows you outrun 'heavy' fleets and travel around in a reasonable timeframe.
But the whole point of being out there is to find somewhere to develop, so all ships that can spare the OP will have survey gear on them. And all ships will definitely have efficiency overhaul just to make supplies/fuel go a little further. Which means you can't use speed boosters, which in turn means you can't use big transports (it's at this point I really wish there was a cruiser-scale fuel tanker).
So the only way to increase cargo/fuel capacity is to add more ships. And you'll need all the capacity you can get as you're carrying most of what you own with you so you field refit salvaged ships into useful configurations without having to backtrack into the core.
A 'typical' long range salvage fleet at this stage might be built around 5x pheaton + 5x collossus, that's a third of your fleet. And it's quite easy to need more than that.

Constant salvaging and surveying also means constant crew loss which means you'll need to bring a fairly large surplus of crew on your trip.
Efficiency overhaul plus most ships having more crew space than they need is usually enough to accomodate this, but sometimes you'll have a particularly rough spell and end up getting close to your crew 'floor' which means taking on any savalaged ships will impact the performance of your whole fleet. Bringing a crew transport would be a solution, but....

This is also a concern if you use a fighter-heavy fleet, which after a pitched battle can have quite a noticably negative impact on the fleet. I've found that crew attrition is one of the more prominent limiters for exploration, even with all the mitigation I can afford to equip. The only way to get around this entirely is to use drone fighters exclusively.
[close]

The concept of the previous logistics system was superior to a hard cap.
Spoiler
You have a number of 'points' in your fleet. Every ship is worth a different number of points, which can then be extended to cover mechanics which did not exist then.
Bigger ships are worth more than smaller ones. Military ships are worth more than civil ones. Pristine ships are worth more than damaged ones. Etc.

Just because the previous implementaion was not good doesn't mean the idea behind it was not good.
[close]
But no cap is superior to any cap.

I'm trying to not change the cap in my current game, and it's an experience.
One thing I've found I'm doing a lot is constantly counting my ships like some kind of obsessive to make sure I always have enough room for 'new' ones, because there is nothing to tell me how 'full' my fleet is.

A possibility could be linking fleet limits into colony industry, so as your industrial capacity expands so does your capability to field ships.
Even if nothing else changes, a big coloured number on the fleet screen to say [current # of ships]/[maximum allowed # of ships] would be helpful.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 02, 2019, 06:29:13 AM
@ Alex:  What really hurts is I need to leave about ten slots empty just to have optimal selection of clunkers if I want to recover enemy ships.  Early in the game, I reach about twenty ships very soon after game start, and I need more to take on pirate bases or bounties that often scale slightly faster than I can keep up.  Midgame, I slowly upgrade from Shrike (P), Enforcers, and Mules to bigger ships.  By endgame, multi-capital slugfests means I need about twenty ships minimum, unless I have optimized Paragon/Astral/Doom ships to slaughter things left and right AND I have maximum map size, because of peak performance.  Even with Paragon/Astral, I need to retreat Doom and carriers frequently, sometimes Eagles and Falcons too in a long battle, then all I have left to deploy are either Apogees brought primarily for surveying and cargo hauling, smaller phase ships effective only under player control, or frigates too small and fragile to fight normal battles (but good for picking off ships in pursuit).  If I use default size of 300, more cruisers and capitals will run out of peak performance.

With Reaper Harbinger gone, I like to bring and chain up to five Afflictors to do one-shot cheese Harbinger used to do.  (I would bring more, but lack of CP makes filling fleet with too many Afflictors inconvenient.  I often bring just three or four.)  Many of the big targets do not need Quantum Disruptor to bypass their shields.  Many of the tough capitals only have frontal shields, and battlestations have walls to aim at to kill via splash damage.  I also have four or five logistics ships.

I often bring two tugs to keep my burn high.

As for Officers, I do not have any skill points to spare for officers.  I would like one point for six officers, but I cannot spare that point.  I make do with four officers.

Bottom line, I run into fleet cap early, or would if I did not care to recover clunkers, and will always stay at about 20 to 25 ships.  If I did not care about recovering enemy ships, my fleet would constantly be at thirty for nearly the entire game.  Early game would be frigates and destroyers.  Endgame is mostly bigger ships for me.  Others might want destroyers like beam Sunders or Spark Drovers.

@ Goumindong:  I do not want the change to Reinforced Bulkhead if that means losing guaranteed recovery.  I throw it on all of my ships without officers to prevent hull and loot loss.

P.S.  Throwing Reinforced Bulkheads on most ships is annoying because ships have a tight OP budget that I would rather spend other combat stuff, but I do not want to permanently lose ships, weapons, and loot.  (Sometimes, I scuttle the ship, but at least I recover all of the loot it had instead of losing it.)  I guess I could eschew Reinforced Bulkheads and reload the game immediately every time I take a casualty.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: vorpal+5 on June 02, 2019, 06:45:22 AM
Serenitis really made some good arguments, as others. Hard ship cap forces a given style, as the only viable one. Less choice? Rarely good in a (strategy) game.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 02, 2019, 06:47:24 AM
Serenitis really made some good arguments, as others. Hard ship cap forces a given style, as the only viable one. Less choice? Rarely good in a (strategy) game.
It also forces it for the AI, as they use capital spam instead of the hundred frigates and destroyers they did last release.

AI fleets and fights against them overall have grown too big since 0.9a.  Peak performance and fleet cap have not kept up.

That said, Logistics as done in 0.6.x forced even fewer ships, unless all of the ships were frigates, due to low limit even with max Leadership.  No Leadership required overpowered combat skills just for solo ship to be viable.

@ Serenitis:  Agreed on cruiser-sized tanker.  There were times when Phaeton was too small but Prometheus is too big (or eats too much fuel).
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Schwartz on June 02, 2019, 06:56:41 AM
I almost never run into fleet cap issues. I did once trying to raid Hegemony, which required about fifteen Valkyries to support 3,5k Marines.

Since mothballed ships get reduced to 0% CR, I don't see the harm in allowing some ships beyond the fleet cap.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 02, 2019, 07:21:19 AM
I almost never run into fleet cap issues. I did once trying to raid Hegemony, which required about fifteen Valkyries to support 3,5k Marines.
Did you raid for blueprints or disrupt some industry?  Player does not need to reach 40% to raid for blueprints.  Of course, if you wanted to raid for other stuff and big money, higher percent helps (but there are easier targets to raid for cash).
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Alex on June 02, 2019, 12:58:41 PM
Thank you all for the feedback so far!

Junkfleets is where it hits me.

Yep, this makes sense.

The main problem is that it makes stacking small logistics ships optimal. But this could be fixed by making big logistcs ships more efficient.

This involves lot of travelling, so you'll need lot of fuel. And a half-decent amount of speed - burn 7 is the lowest speed that still allows you outrun 'heavy' fleets and travel around in a reasonable timeframe.
But the whole point of being out there is to find somewhere to develop, so all ships that can spare the OP will have survey gear on them. And all ships will definitely have efficiency overhaul just to make supplies/fuel go a little further. Which means you can't use speed boosters, which in turn means you can't use big transports (it's at this point I really wish there was a cruiser-scale fuel tanker).
So the only way to increase cargo/fuel capacity is to add more ships. And you'll need all the capacity you can get as you're carrying most of what you own with you so you field refit salvaged ships into useful configurations without having to backtrack into the core.
A 'typical' long range salvage fleet at this stage might be built around 5x pheaton + 5x collossus, that's a third of your fleet. And it's quite easy to need more than that.

Hmm, let me just look at the math here.

5x Phaeton is 3000 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 15 supplies / month. Those are reduced to 8 fuel/ly and 12 supplies/month with EO.

1x Prometheus is 2500 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 10 supplies / month. Without EO, that's about the same in terms of supplies and a decent bit more fuel/ly.

So, yeah, what you're saying here checks out as well. It would make sense to ramp up the efficiency of larger haulers more so that 1x Prometheus was more efficient than 5x Phaeton or w/e assuming the Phaetons have EO and the Prometheus does not. Likewise for the Atlas vs Colossus; the Atlas seems to be considerably worse off than the Prometheus in this type of comparison.

Let me make a note about this - there's really no good reason to make the player lug around larger numbers stat-booster ships when the same effect could be concentrated in far fewer ships.

This is really good, I think - a fairly minor change that should make a solid impact.


The other aspect looks like the high-end battles last too long; will take a look at this as well.



Some of the other changes I'd like to make:

1) Increase the base number of officers, while keeping the max either the same or maybe reducing it to 8... probably keeping it at 10, though. So Leadership might give you an extra 2 instead of drastically changing the number you get. This should help non-Leadership characters field smaller fleets.

2) In general, make fleet-affecting skill effects provide more of a bonus for smaller fleets. For example, a carrier-boosting skill might increase the fighter replacement rate based on the total number of fighter bays in the fleet, or a +maximum CR skill might have a higher impact when the total number of ordnance points in the fleet is lower. Basically the same idea as the old logistics point system, but distributed over a large number of skills. So you *could* have a larger fleet, but would end up with ships that are slightly weaker individually.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Goumindong on June 02, 2019, 01:08:06 PM
I like that idea but i am wary that communicating how that works to players might be a bit difficult.

Moreover inam not too worried about having huge fleets because deployment point limits naturally push big fleets into “clearly less efficient” territory. If you lug around 2x the deployment points as you might routinely use then youve doubled your upkeep for no good reason.

Though that might be a better option. The more (non-mothballed) ships you have the more upkeep/fuel everything costs. Junk fleets mitigate this due to the junk maintenance skill (as all their ships are cheaper) or even explicitly in that d-mods could reduce the upkeep increase. This also solves the fuel/maintenance issue for larger ships. As they have less of an impact on overall maintenance.

@megas i was figuring it would not. That it would stack rather than replace
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Alex on June 02, 2019, 01:38:45 PM
I like that idea but i am wary that communicating how that works to players might be a bit difficult.

I was thinking that the skill tooltip would be a good place for it. E.G.:

+50% fighter replacement rate when the fleet has 6 or less fighter bays
   Bonus is reduced when there are more fighter bays
   Your fleet has 12 fighter bays and receives +25% to fighter replacement rate

Seems that something like this, with more polished phrasing and strategic highlighting of the relevant values, would do the job.


(I did think about the "more upkeep" approach, btw... I don't think it'd be enough by itself, but sprinkled in among the other skills - such as, say, "supply use reduced by 50 per month or 50%, whichever is less" - it might have a good place.)
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 02, 2019, 02:29:25 PM
If I did not have peak performance to worry about, I can probably kill fleets with 200-300 DP worth of ships.  Once several cruisers start whining about CR decay, I retreat several ships and bring replacements in.  Lately, I have ended up deploying over half of my entire fleet against multi-capital fleets (which become common at endgame), though not all at once due to map size, due to peak performance running out.  With killer overpowered ships in my fleet, peak performance is greatest enemy.

I guess I can try to use more Paragons and Astrals to reduce the ships I need to bring, but that is not desirable with all the fuel it burns if I need to travel half the sector or longer.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Morbo513 on June 02, 2019, 02:29:55 PM
I am 200% in favour of getting rid of the hard-fleet-cap. Supply upkeep is plenty incentive not to go overboard. I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right. It makes a lot more sense when 40 frigates aren't of the same strength as 40 onslaughts.
When I'm toward end-game, I like to have trios or pairs of frigates I can cycle through in the bigger battles, either as escorts for capitals (2+ per) or as more independent attack "wings". Current cap means I can keep maybe one trio in reserve without sacrificing the number of larger ships I'm fielding.
It also promotes scrap-ball fleets as a viable strategy. But you just can't take advantage of that possibility when your everyday large NPC fleet will always outnumber you AND have a technological/quality advantage.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Awe on June 02, 2019, 03:03:17 PM
Hmm, let me just look at the math here.

5x Phaeton is 3000 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 15 supplies / month. Those are reduced to 8 fuel/ly and 12 supplies/month with EO.

1x Prometheus is 2500 fuel, 10 fuel / ly, and 10 supplies / month. Without EO, that's about the same in terms of supplies and a decent bit more fuel/ly.

So, yeah, what you're saying here checks out as well. It would make sense to ramp up the efficiency of larger haulers more so that 1x Prometheus was more efficient than 5x Phaeton or w/e assuming the Phaetons have EO and the Prometheus does not. Likewise for the Atlas vs Colossus; the Atlas seems to be considerably worse off than the Prometheus in this type of comparison.

Let me make a note about this - there's really no good reason to make the player lug around larger numbers stat-booster ships when the same effect could be concentrated in far fewer ships.

This is really good, I think - a fairly minor change that should make a solid impact.

Look, please, at the surveying equipment mod in that case too. At some stage its anyway better to have more smaller ships than few larger, just because of how survey bonus now work. Its not like I hit fleet cap in my exloration missions, but less ships and less micromanagment is always nice. 3-5 phaetons, 5-10 colossuses is typical for me, and I gladly change them for Prometheuses and Atlases. (well, probably, not. low burn is issue too)

PS Rising limit of logistcal hull mods for bigger ships can make them more useful even without direct efficiency buff.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Alex on June 02, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Look, please, at the surveying equipment mod in that case too. At some stage its anyway better to have more smaller ships than few larger, just because of how survey bonus now work.

Good point, made a note.

PS Rising limit of logistcal hull mods for bigger ships can make them more useful even without direct efficiency buff.

Interesting idea, but it might devolve into "get everything possibly useful" rather than "make choices with tradeoffs". Will keep it in mind, though.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 02, 2019, 05:59:22 PM
I do not use Atlas anymore unless I need to haul a bunch of commodities from one colony to another (to prepare for shortage mitigation).  Colossus or mass Apogees seem to do the trick for general loot hauling.  Even Colossus 3 is nice as a dual-purpose ground raider and hauler.

Prometheus is useful if I need to haul a lot of fuel (since there is no cruiser tanker), and can squeeze Augmented Engines and Efficiency Overhaul.

The big spike from cruiser to capital is the main reason I avoid too many capitals in my fleet, especially haulers that cannot fight.  Once, I scuttled my Prometheus because I needed to cut fuel use (due to too low fuel), and it was the cheapest and most expendable ship to replace.

EDIT:  If bar mission rewards scale based on how much cargo space I have available, then bringing several Atlases could be handy for triggering those fat reward missions instead of usually seeing those that only offer pocket change.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 03, 2019, 06:24:30 AM
I should mention I use mostly junk fleet until endgame.  Without commission and easy access to pristine large ships, most of what I use for most of the game are whatever I recover from the enemy.  Early game is whatever pirates use.  I do not build Heavy Industry until I can handle expeditions.  (If I cannot, I avoid building big industries that attract expeditions, like Heavy Industry.)

I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right.
Back when Increased Maintenance did not exist, I think.  That (D) mod would be a real killer with big ships.  (It kind of is already.)

Not to mention Efficiency Overhaul more of a must-have (and I already throw it on everything), since that reduces supplies and other stats used per month.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 03, 2019, 07:38:43 AM
I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Megas on June 03, 2019, 09:13:28 AM
I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.
Yes, black market sometimes has the ships, but they are so expensive if it is not a cheap frigate (that is probably obsolete) or Shrike (P).  I rarely buy ships because I want to save money for the biggest ship or a colony.  Does not mean I never buy ships, but I think twice before doing so.  I do pick up Tempests and Afflictors.  Afflictor is as good as Reaper Harbinger against some of the more annoying enemies.

I do not use skills at all to make zombie fleet style better.  I use clunkers because they are cheap and work well enough early in the game, and if I take a casualty, I do not care too much (although I reload and replay battles more now with Increased Maintenance and Erratic Fuel Injector introduced).  Also, because if I lose pristine ships, they become clunkers if recovered, and I cannot afford pristine replacements or restorations that early in the game.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 03, 2019, 09:36:41 AM
The prices as far as I can tell are the same as open market minus tariffs. I just saved my pennies. I always buy tempest, and often I will buy pristine hammerheads. I also like to buy a pristine player ship for myself (sunder is a common choice) and then I will buy drovers and most decent cruisers once I have the cash. I found that the jump from frigates to destroyers felt big, but after that things sped along nicely. Colonies can wait until I have a fleet to defend them.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: AxleMC131 on June 03, 2019, 11:07:57 PM
I also liked the Max Supply/Month as a cap instead, was part of SS+ if I remember right.
Back when Increased Maintenance did not exist, I think.  That (D) mod would be a real killer with big ships.  (It kind of is already.)

The "Increased Maintenance" D-mod was added in the latest version of Starsector. ??? SS+ has been defunct for far longer than that.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Goumindong on June 03, 2019, 11:36:55 PM
Logistics supply only triggered on base, not modofied maintenance anyway.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: TrashMan on June 04, 2019, 01:43:55 AM
I found it was really easy to get pristine ships from the black market and almost entirely avoid heavily d-moded ships. Most of the time they just scan you and don't do anything and even when you get hit with the rep penalty, it's only -5 which is nothing. Most things below capital size can be found quite. Sindria in particular always has a ton of nice military ships for sale on the black market. I honestly don't see much reason to use d-moded ships when the skills that make them decent don't scale into late game at all. Honestly the black market penalties need to be way harsher, I just buy ships with transponder on and don't care.

I find pristine capital ships on OPEN MARKET, something is not right.
There really is no need to do commissions  or trying to get high Rep, when you can get any ship from either the Black or Open Market.
 
The military SHOULD care if someone is driving around in THEIR battleship/supercarrier without them ever approving the sale.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Max_z on June 21, 2019, 07:18:34 AM
Maybe have an additional row (5) of mothballed ships?
Like you fill the cap with 30 ships but can have 5 more mothballed, and can't un-mothball unless you free the required slot(s).
You can always mothball the other too (1 active + 34 mothballed)
This would allow some post-battle recovery even at full cap
Does it sound reasonable?
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Recklessimpulse on June 21, 2019, 07:57:16 AM
Sadly not really 10 might be reasonable but 30 sounds like a better number for that idea if we put a limit at all.
   Capitals are often the last to die so you need to be able to see all possible salvage options.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: Max_z on June 21, 2019, 08:38:53 AM
be able to see all possible salvage options.
Cyan Leader get the issue up on another Suggestion
30? Do you need to pull another fleet? (The refit screen scrollbar might implode ;))
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: MichaelFrazzy on June 21, 2019, 03:51:56 PM
Does anyone know how to remove/change the cap on a Mac? I have been trying over and over to figure out how to raise the fleet/ship cap in the config files for Mac since I am without a PC for a while here. No matter how much I search or how many forum posts I read I cannot find the line to change that in the package contents. If someone could PLEASE teach me how to do that, or if anyone has a simple pre-made mod I can load in, I would be extremely grateful.

This is one of my favorite games but for a lot of reasons mentioned here, playing with the cap on really messes with the mid/late game for me since I love having multiple waves + smaller, faster ships mixed in with capital ships. I can make a new post if this is too much of a side tangent. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 21, 2019, 04:26:45 PM
package contents --> Resources --> Java --> Data --> config --> settings.json
Then you find the line maxShipsInFleet and change that number to whatever you want. You can open the file in textedit and use command f to find the line quickly.
Title: Re: Don't count mothballed ships towards the fleet cap
Post by: MichaelFrazzy on June 21, 2019, 05:38:18 PM
That worked! I really appreciate it, not sure why I couldn't figure it out on the Mac version.