Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: StarScum on May 21, 2019, 09:08:26 AM

Title: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 21, 2019, 09:08:26 AM
I'm really interested in the Conquest capital ship for its weapons and speed.

I was planning on outfitting its 4 large ballistic slots with Mjonlinr Cannons so the main guns are always useful, the 4 medium ballistic slots with Heavy Maulers to chew up armor, and the 2 medium energy slots with graviton beams to help the Mjonlinr strip shields. The 8 small energy slots will be split evenly between burst PD lasers and Ion Cannons. Perhaps I'll replace the Ion Cannons with Antimatter blasters but that might not be realistic.

Not sure what to put in the 2 large and medium missile slots. 

On an unrelated note, the more I look at it, the more I want to strangle whoever designed the Conquest. From a lore perspective its like stapling two battleships together; it looks awful and its impractical. From a lore perspective, there is little to be gained from having two battery's of guns on two different sides of the ship that can't support eachother. It would have been much more practical (and stylish) to just have guns mounted on a hull running down the middle of the ship that can be brought to bear port, starboard, and aft. This would cover all the areas it currently does while also cutting the cost of the ship almost in half.

From a gameplay perspective its also frustrating cause it means you have to spend OP on guns that will most likely be out of combat most of the time.

It just pains me that a ship I love the concept behind (a fast moving hard hitting capital ship just like the Iowa) could be more efficient and more stylish at the same time.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on May 21, 2019, 10:30:57 AM
Spearheading a Conquest into the middle of an enemy formation works well if you have the flux reserves. I don't consider symmetrical layouts wasted, but I do consider the medium energy and medium missile mounts a waste. HAGs and medium kinetics make the most of your flux. Locust SRMs. Burst PD all around. Then use Hardened Shields as the only shield mod; shields to be used situationally. Dump OP into flux handling. It works fairly well but remains a glass cannon.

I wager the OP reduction for heavy mounts was a result of the broadside nature of the ship. So you're wasting less OP. Going full-on hardmode on one side and PD on the other side is a viable build strategy, if you wanna go there.

Heavy Maulers were nerfed hard in this version, I would find every excuse to use medium kinetics.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: MajorTheRed on May 21, 2019, 10:38:26 AM
I use a Conquest as a flagship for Station assault and defence:
-Small energy with only Laser PD
-Medium energy with burst laser
-Large Missiles with Hammer barrage and Medium issiles with Salamander pod (to prevent retreat)
-One side is often more geared up than the other: Heavy Needler/Autocannon + HAG (in short burst) for the main side.
-The other side is more PD oriented but still able to defend itself: Devastator + Large autocannon and flak.
-For mods: Accelerate shield, ITU and the hull mod giving boost to EMP resistance and flux venting.

I tend to go for the wall of fire strategy over the large uber guns (Gauss and Mjolnir) which are too costly for the COnquest IMHO.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Tei on May 21, 2019, 10:43:37 AM
The conquest is severely lacking IMO. You can get the same 2 Large and two Med mounts on an Onslaught, except you dont have to rotate as much at all to get the proper firing angle.

For missiles using medium missile pods on the Large mounts can work too. Use 4x Sabots or 4x harpoons are actually pretty decent. Saves OP so you can dump it into capacitors or more hullmods.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 21, 2019, 10:54:23 AM
Hardened Shields and Heavy Blasters in the front mediums are the essentials for a good Conquest build.

Missiles depend on the rest of the fleet: if you have enough interceptor cover, go with hammer barrages (squalls for AI). If you don't, go with Locusts. It almost doesn't matter what large ballistics you use, as long as you have enough kinetics to reasonably get through shields, because they are all good. Mjolnir + Mk IX is good for 900 range band and is complemented well by autocannons or HVDs. If you aren't afraid to get in close, Storm Needlers are brutal, brutal beasts (I like to put them in the front slots so they get just a bit more range off the forward beam).

Why heavy blasters? Because the Conquest has a massive region forward where it doesn't have good firepower: 2 heavy blasters is a solid cruiser's level of output, which will punish/kill any cheeky frigate or fast destroyer that tries to hang out there. It also allows the Conquest to chase down enemies without stopping offensive output, or do the "swing and blast" maneuver to fire off a dual hammer barrage without the guns stopping.

I do recommend putting the heavy blasters in their own weapon group: if you have an enemy in broadside the ballistics are much more efficient, and sometimes that efficiency is needed. Other times, leave them on and kill the enemy more quickly while running up your own flux.

For hullmods, ITU, Hardened Shields, and IPDAI are solid choices. Resistant flux conduits can be a good choice as well because the shield is narrow. Beware adding too many hullmods: in general they are pricey and should be picked carefully. Personally I prefer LRPD over burst PD, both for the range with ITU and to save OP, but I also tend to put a flak/dual flak on each side for supplemental PD (and the HB's cover the loss of DPS).

Conquest can be run symmetric or not. I prefer symmetric because it lets me engage in whichever direction is most tactically sound, as opposed to needing to circle/move in a particular way. It also lets me have a backup side for when I inevitably overextend during my murdering spree and get one side's guns disabled.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Gotcha! on May 21, 2019, 10:55:13 AM
I love the Conquest. It's my favourite, along with the Odyssey.

I have 4 Mjolnirs in the large slots, 4 Hypervelocity Drivers in the medium slots, and Harpoon MRM Pods all around.
I strip their shields and finish them off with Harpoons (the large ships at least; smaller ships die fast enough anyway).
Hephaestus Assault Guns would be decent as well I guess.

I find Heavy Maulers very disappointing as well. An explosive weapon with an extremely long range is a bit pointless in my opinion; better to use anti-shield long range weapons first, get their flux up, and while closing in destroy them quick with a shorter range higher damage explosive weapons/missiles.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: koprus on May 21, 2019, 11:20:11 AM
I was checking old posts for conquest kitting ideas the other day and stumbled upon this one right here:

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=14662.0

Some very cool ideas in there check it out!



Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Igncom1 on May 21, 2019, 12:00:24 PM
I'll tend to go for a more conservative load out that is supposed to allow it to survive fleet-vs-fleet engagements.

PD in all small mounts, and as for the medium and large ballistic I'll often go for HVD's and those rapid fire assault cannons. Although sometimes I'll mix it up with some heavy autocannons supporting a couple maulers.

Seeing what the AI can do with heavy missile launchers I'll always put on some, never usually the torpedo launchers but I will usually mix it up to whatever from time to time. The medium missile mounts I just stick whatever type of missiles I am using in the play through. Never torpedoes though as I have accidentally told the AI to use them both at the same time beofre and nuked my own carriers. LOL.

And finally the energy mounts.... I just use PD in all honestly, no need to overcomplicate it, just pack on some PD lasers and let that be the end of it.


Occasionally however I'll go super conservative and mount medium weapons in the large mount slots and just buff up the flux stats or pack on more mods. I'll still kill cruisers just fine, but now it won't have any real chance at killing enemy capital ships... on it's own anyway.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2019, 12:03:08 PM
Maulers are handy for Conquest for dual Gauss or Mark IX builds.  If I need Gauss Cannons to attack Paragon with Tachyon Lances, I want to stay as far away from it so to avoid getting shot by its hard flux weapons then blasted (and paralyzed) by shield piercing beams.  But I guess Tachyon Paragon is rare in 0.9.  As for dual Mark IX, if I need more kinetics or I have not yet found enough heavy HE (say, I just recovered my first Conquest, and I need to use it before I return to my colony where my stashed weapons are), two Maulers will do in a pinch.

Currently, my new Conquest taken from a deserter has two Mark IXs and two Maulers on one side because I have not found two HAGs yet.  (More preciselyy, I have them at my colony, but I am far away from it, and the shops are not selling HAGs.)

I agree Heavy Mauler has been hurt a bit much since 0.9a.  I use it seldomly.  If its DPS will remain this low, then it needs better accuracy.

Quote
And finally the energy mounts.... I just use PD in all honestly, no need to overcomplicate it, just pack on some PD lasers and let that be the end of it.
If I have OP to spare, more burst PD is what I like in the medium mounts.  Usually, I do not and the mounts get left empty.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 21, 2019, 12:26:34 PM
If you want to kite instead of brawl, Ion Beams can also be good in the medium energy mounts. Its amazing what even a single beam will do once shields go down. If other elements in your fleet have EMP though (I like to have Eagles and Falcons with 1 ion beam each) then its not super needed.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2019, 01:56:25 PM
The best part of Ion Beam is the shield pierce to paralyze.  Ion Beam is a bit of a flux hog, and takes OP that may be better spent elsewhere, so no high-end heavy ballistics like Mjolnir.  Even with plenty of OP from skimping on weapons, it is so tempting to get Expanded Missile Racks for more missiles.

I tried Heavy Blasters on Conquest and... Conquest, like old pre-0.9a Centurion, needs a bit more forgiving and overlapping turret arcs to attack with two medium energy weapons ahead easily.  However, if player can get it to work, it is useful enough that player can use dumb-fire missiles (like Hammer Barrage) effectively.  Because the medium mounts eat more OP, and they are flux inefficient, player needs to cut back somewhere on the broadsides or PD to make it work.

For those without Heavy Blasters, Pulse Lasers and IPDAI IR Pulse Lasers seem to work okay.  Even Mining Blaster can work if player wants to get close to use dumb-fire large missiles optimally.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 21, 2019, 02:36:51 PM
Hardened Shields and Heavy Blasters in the front mediums are the essentials for a good Conquest build.


This is all good advice except

1) Stay away from Mark IX's. Heavy Needlers are better in almost every way. While they don't have 900 range, Mark IX's are so inaccurate that that doesn't much matter. The Burst damage on shields is very valuable and they're more efficient on cap.

2) The bigger the guns the better HE damage is in general. Bigger guns have bigger raw damage and that makes for better armor and hull penetration (due to minimum armor). So if you're considering going for HE meds and kin larges probably worth swapping that.

As a result i kind of like

Hellbore/HAG +2 HN. The Hellbore punches through dense armor and the HAG does consistent damage. The 2 HN burst shields which need to stay up because of the Hellbore and the HAG. ITU, Hardened Shields, Aux Thrusters. There is a devastator and Assault Chaingun in the rear slots to clean out fighters. There are two burst PD in the rear to kill salamanders. And 2 Hammers go in the front slot. Everything else into dissipation and cap.

Aux Thrusters are pretty essential to enabling the broad-slide which is also pretty essential to properly piloting the ship. Skills are also pretty necessary

Hellbore/Storm/empty med or flack is also a decent combo
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Vind on May 21, 2019, 03:29:43 PM
Works well with full combat build. Gunnery Implants needed so Mark IXs and HAGs wont scatter fire much.
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4yKrSyx/screenshot003.png) (https://postimg.cc/Thb82XXY)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 21, 2019, 04:11:50 PM
Mark IX are a perfectly good choice IMO. They are already good value for the OP and then on this ship, large weapons have reduced OP cost, so they are super good value. They let you spend more OP on stuff like hardened shields that the ship really needs. They are accurate enough to deal with cruisers/capitals and slow destroyers which is what the ship should be fighting anyway. I usually use more high power weapons on the conquest because it has the flux stats for them though. Mark IX is a gun I use on the onslaught and dominator more where the low OP and reasonable flux cost work well. Heavy blasters are ok, but I wouldn't use them if you are already using something like mjolnirs, they just cost way too much flux and have mediocre range. They're good if the rest of your load out is fairly efficient though.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2019, 04:21:39 PM
The only reason I see to put things like Heavy Blaster in the mediums is to attempt to combine them with large Hammers or Reapers and use Conquest primarily as a traditional forward-attacking ship (just to give large dumb-fire missiles a point in the game if Legion XIV cannot be found), with broadsides a secondary focus.  Otherwise, I like the mediums empty (or put more beam PD in them) and focus on broadsides and maybe homing large missiles.  Unfortunately, those medium energy turret arcs do not overlap very easily, and getting them to focus at a target straight ahead is a bit of a pain.

Marx IX is reasonably accurate with Gunnery Implants 3.  Even without that perk, it is still decent at anti-shield of large ships.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 21, 2019, 04:48:29 PM
Two Mark IX auto cannons do 696 kinetic DPS for 800 flux/second and use 16 OP on a Conquest.

ONE Storm Needler does 750 DPS for 650 flux/second and uses 18 OP on a Conquest

The Storm Needler is more accurate, has a faster projectile, and has less recoil. It has less range.... but about the same effective range because the only thing that the Mark IX can hit at above 1100 units with ITU is a capital sized shield.

If you're really starved for OP its fine but a Storm Needler outperforms it like Woah.

Though i did try that thumper fit and was surprisingly happy with the value of the Thumper it performed leagues better with a Storm Needler against every conceivable set.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on May 21, 2019, 04:55:57 PM
Speaking of stuff to put on a Conquest.. does anyone except for AI use Squalls? They always feel severely underwhelming compared to buffed Locusts, which are amazing finishers vs. wounded ships. How about the improved MIRV?
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2019, 05:04:38 PM
Storm Needler is good, but a bit too short-ranged unless I build for close-range brawling.

After all, Gauss appears to have lame stats for its costs unless player really needs the shot range against the likes of SIM Paragon to avoid dying.

Big shields are very common late.  Inaccuracy is not that big a deal at hitting things.  What is a problem with inaccuracy is hitting armor instead of exposed hull on the target.  Often, I have enemies with some holes of exposed hull, but plenty of armor.  With a more accurate weapon like Gauss Cannon, I hit the exposed hull instead of armor.  With stock Mark IX (and their smaller ilk), I usually hit armor and they take longer to die if I rely on Mark IX to damage hull instead of armor.

@ Schwartz: I do not use Squalls.  They track poorly, and run out of ammo too quickly.  I use Hurricane MIRV if I have it but no Locusts.  Hurricane may be better if I have Missile Specialization, but I do not use that skill.  The recent buff to Hurricane made it go from worthless to barely useful.  Could be amazing with Missile Spec and ECCM, but I have not tried that (opportunity cost is too high).  My large missile of choice is still Locusts unless I want to attempt a loadout friendly to dumb-fire missiles.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 21, 2019, 05:21:55 PM
MIRVs are good if you have missile skills but the conquest doesn't really have the OP to put ECCM on it and MIRVS are a huge OP drain in and of themselves. Plus you ideally have both ECCM and missile skills to make MIRVs really good

I think that a missile support conquest is entirely valid. But its not so much better than a Gryphon that i would consider using it in that way unless you were starved for that kind of ship

Buuuuuut

Dual Gauss, Ion Beam(or whatever), 1 dual flack, 3 Tac Laser(forward side), 5 Burst PD(rearward side), 2 MIRV, 2 Harpoon, ECCM, EMR, ITU, ATG is a legit ship if you have missile skills

Its just a bit hard to put together because the Gauss are hard to come by and you NEED missile skills to make the MIRVS good.(when you have them though they're effectively 3000 range guided reapers)

Squalls are bad. They're a brawling support weapon that doesn't burst against enemies that like to run away and burn your missiles anyway. Sabots are superior. Only exception is on ships that WANT to keep enemies away rather than fight them. So its fine on the Astral

Re: Gauss and Mark IX. Yes but Gauss have perfect accuracy, no recoil, and 1200 range. Plus they do 700 damage/shot so even after kinetic damage reduction vs armor they have effective armor piercing.

You can say that Mark IX have more range than Storm Needlers but... i find that is not the case in the majority of situations. Just as Arbalests do not end up having less effective range than heavy auto-cannons.  If killing frigates ever stopped becoming valuable then maybe there would be a point to Mark IX's... but it doesn't stop being so AND storm needlers do so much more efficient dps anyway.

Its just a bit hard to put together because the Gauss are hard to come by
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 21, 2019, 05:26:14 PM
I agree that the storm needler is a very good choice on the conquest, particularly for a player ship, and I would usually use one if I had it. The mark IX is a more reserved and consistent choice for the AI because it costs a lot less flux to fire and lets the AI have a bot more granularity with how much flux it is spending. I find slightly underpowered AI load outs are more consistently able to survive because the AI can't blow all of its flux capacity on one ship only to get attacked by another. Mark IX is like an arblest: a bit underpowered but low OP, widely available and low flux demand make it decent for AI loadouts, especially on ships that struggle with dissipation. Mark IX is also decent vs medium/light armor which the needlers aren't. It's not a big deal for the player ship since the player can manage weapon types well, but it makes a difference for the AI sometimes.

That being said, I would probably only use the Mark IX on a junker conquest I am giving to the AI, or if I didn't have something better. It's a pretty useful weapon, but definitely not optimal for the conquest.

I also don't spend a ton of time killing frigates with capitals, I see that as the job of the carriers mostly, so that's more of a play style/fleet composition difference. I kill them when I have the opportunity, but I don't consider it as a priority in my loadout design.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 21, 2019, 05:36:08 PM
I generally find killing small ships to be the priority for any player ship unless i have tonnes of fighters(which i rarely do). Though to be fair this is never something that the conquest is particularly good at.

The reason for this is because small ships very easily put pressure on larger ships to force them into disadvantageous areas.  Once the small ships are cleared out then you get to easily put pressure on their larger ships thus negating their shields and flux advantages. (I.E. it makes getting behind them easier because they have nothing to prevent you from flanking, if they turn to face you they get flanked by their fleet)

Indeed the ability to kill small ships is the primary advantage of SO ships. You can just hunt down all the pesky things before you have to go kill the ones with the big guns that cant catch up to you.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 21, 2019, 06:05:30 PM
You can say that Mark IX have more range than Storm Needlers but... i find that is not the case in the majority of situations. Just as Arbalests do not end up having less effective range than heavy auto-cannons.  If killing frigates ever stopped becoming valuable then maybe there would be a point to Mark IX's... but it doesn't stop being so AND storm needlers do so much more efficient dps anyway.
The thing that helps Arbalest is no 800 range HE medium weapon.  Old Heavy Mauler would have been fine, but not so much now.  Today, if I am stuck with Heavy Mortar as my HE weapon, I do not care about 800 range kinetics so much because the extra range tends to be wasted.

For heavy weapons, Mark IX has two or three range-matching weapons that compliment it:  Hellbore, HAG, or (maybe) Mjolnir.  I can hover around maximum range and pelt with both damage types.  That 900 range on Mark IX does not gets wasted.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 21, 2019, 07:49:55 PM
I don't personally think the difference of 700 vs 800 range is important for Arbalest vs Heavy Autocannon, exactly as Megas pointed out because there is no 800 range HE. What is important to me is the higher DPS the Heavy Autocannon brings, so I will always use it over the Arbalest. If I have to close in a little closer for the HE to land, fine. (I don't value hovering around max range very much - I prefer to enter brawling range for secondary weapons to help.)

I've made good Gauss variants for the Conquest for AI use, but except for a few niches 1200 + ITU is almost too much range. Its a bit rare to get open fire lanes that long in crowded battles. Good vs Paragons and stations, against as Megas pointed out.

Mk IX is surprisingly effective in general, almost in spite of its stats. Efficiency is a bit low, but its still kinetic and punishes shields. However the rounds are heavy enough to do decently against destroyer armor, and will get through heavier hull once the armor is stripped, making it an 'all around threat' type gun in addition to being 'ok' against shields. The cheap OP cost is a bonus. So I wouldn't say the Mk IX is a super good weapon, but its also absolutely not a bad weapon.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: TrashMan on May 22, 2019, 03:26:31 AM
On an unrelated note, the more I look at it, the more I want to strangle whoever designed the Conquest. From a lore perspective its like stapling two battleships together; it looks awful and its impractical. From a lore perspective, there is little to be gained from having two battery's of guns on two different sides of the ship that can't support eachother. It would have been much more practical (and stylish) to just have guns mounted on a hull running down the middle of the ship that can be brought to bear port, starboard, and aft. This would cover all the areas it currently does while also cutting the cost of the ship almost in half.

From a gameplay perspective its also frustrating cause it means you have to spend OP on guns that will most likely be out of combat most of the time.

It just pains me that a ship I love the concept behind (a fast moving hard hitting capital ship just like the Iowa) could be more efficient and more stylish at the same time.

That holds true for many Sci-Fi ships.
Once you start designing functional ships (thinking about fields of fire, protection and the like, instead of interesting shapes)

http://orig12.deviantart.net/c4bb/f/2012/190/0/e/battleship_archangel_2_by_blackescaflowne-d56k7vd.jpg

Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 22, 2019, 06:38:41 AM
On an unrelated note, the more I look at it, the more I want to strangle whoever designed the Conquest. From a lore perspective its like stapling two battleships together; it looks awful and its impractical. From a lore perspective, there is little to be gained from having two battery's of guns on two different sides of the ship that can't support eachother. It would have been much more practical (and stylish) to just have guns mounted on a hull running down the middle of the ship that can be brought to bear port, starboard, and aft. This would cover all the areas it currently does while also cutting the cost of the ship almost in half.

From a gameplay perspective its also frustrating cause it means you have to spend OP on guns that will most likely be out of combat most of the time.

It just pains me that a ship I love the concept behind (a fast moving hard hitting capital ship just like the Iowa) could be more efficient and more stylish at the same time.

That holds true for many Sci-Fi ships.
Once you start designing functional ships (thinking about fields of fire, protection and the like, instead of interesting shapes)

http://orig12.deviantart.net/c4bb/f/2012/190/0/e/battleship_archangel_2_by_blackescaflowne-d56k7vd.jpg

I'm not saying that the ships should look realistic. I've seen what realistic space-battleships would look like and its awful. But what you've posted is a much better design that the one we currently have for the Conquest.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Gotcha! on May 22, 2019, 07:24:45 AM
Whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? The Conquest is the best-looking ship in the game! 8)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 22, 2019, 08:06:50 AM
Whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? The Conquest is the best-looking ship in the game! 8)

That's not really saying much tbh.

This game was on my radar for a while but I was put off by the style of the ships, which isn't to my tastes. Ironically I used to agree and believe the Conquest was the best looking, but as the rest of the ships grew on my more and more I've actually started to hate it for the reasons I stated. It's two battleships stabled together and pushed by an engine, I can't get that image out of my head.

I hope someone will make an EVE Online total conversion soon.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on May 22, 2019, 09:28:25 AM
The Conquest's shape is sleek and stylish and very midline. I think it was one of the earliest ships in the game. You can see some of that old-style 'Giger'-esque greeble in its engine section and I personally love that. There are some ships that could do with a makeover but the Conquest ain't one of them. (Looking at you, Apogee & Doom)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 22, 2019, 09:36:02 AM
The Conquest's shape is sleek and stylish and very midline. I think it was one of the earliest ships in the game. You can see some of that old-style 'Giger'-esque greeble in its engine section and I personally love that. There are some ships that could do with a makeover but the Conquest ain't one of them. (Looking at you, Apogee & Doom)

The Conquest is unique in that its poor art design actually makes it a worse ship mechanically. Having two different struts with turrets that can't turn 180 degrees means you have to spend points arming both if you want 180 coverage, a flaw which could be rectified if they just merged together. I suppose you could argue that having two struts means you can engage enemies on either side, but I doubt you could keep up the fire with that many guns going off.

Many players have said that its optimal to have an asymmetrical gun layout with heavy guns only taking up one side of the ship, and that just hurts my soul to look at or even think about. The ship would be so much better if it was just one long hull.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on May 22, 2019, 09:44:16 AM
Since we're talking about mechanics and design.. the Conquest is also perfect for kiting beam ships because it's got a canyon going right down the middle. ;)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 22, 2019, 10:36:46 AM

ONE Storm Needler does 750 DPS for 650 flux/second and uses 18 OP on a Conquest


Its only about 112 DPS against hull of anything from cruiser and above.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 22, 2019, 11:04:00 AM
TLDR vs Dominator Hull:
Storm Needler no skills: is 250 dps / 650 fps
With skills: 453.6 dps 650 fps

Mk IX no skills 200dps / 400 fps
With skills 312.5 dps / 400 fps
---

It does a bit over double that. Lets take a pretty beefy armor of a Dominator. It has 1500 armor, so its 5% residual rating will be 75. A Storm Needler's per shot damage is 75, or 37.5 for armor penetration because it is kinetic.

Dps = 750 * (37.5/(75+37.5)) = 750 * .333 = 250 (storm needler vs dominator hull, no skills)

Not good at all! Targeting Analysis 3 will bring the factor from .333 to .429 (nearly a 30% increase in dps vs hull from that skill, nice), which could be cancelled by the Evasive Action 3 perk. With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484, for a total dps of 453.6 dps.

A Mk IX with its 200 damage shots will be doing:

dps = 350 * (100/(75+100)) = 350 * .5714 = 200

With all skills: 312.5 dps

This shows an interesting fact: skills help the relative efficiency of the Storm Needler more than the Mk IX, allowing it to start to close the gap. The dps/fps ratio ends at ~ .7 for the storm needler, and .78 for the Mk IX with skills, up from .385 and .5 respectively.

Conclusion: without skills, the Storm Needler is a specialty anti-shield weapon vs heavily armored targets. With skills, it is almost as efficient a hull killer, with significantly higher dps for a single large slot. Skilled vs skilled armor (enemy officer) brings the calculation back to the start (a little worse for both).
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: bowman on May 22, 2019, 11:34:26 AM
The Conquest is my favorite capital ship in the game, with Odyssey as second. I never load it symmetrically, it simply doesn't have the flux to do so and flying max-speed in the middle of an enemy fleet to make use of such a loadout will quickly result in your death even with the ship system letting you flip around to retreat. I also completely ignore the missile slots- they're extremely powerful if you make use of them but they also suck up an immense amount of OP. I use the spare OP from not using missiles (and not equipping it fully/symmetrically) to load it up with quite a few hullmods.

I will say that this is with a fairly high level character, as can be seen on the top left. I have 10% bonus OP, 10% higher max vents/capacitors, and the shield is -25% flux/dmg (combined with Hardened shields) from the relevant combat skill. Even with an entirely unskilled captain though this loadout still works fine, you probably just have to drop one of the less important hullmods due to losing 10% bonus OP.

Side 1 (You can mirror this if you have two Conquests so you can circle opposite sides of the battlefield/focus fire one target and not block each other):
1x Gauss, 1x Hellbore (6 OP for 750 HE damage to tear open armor), 2x Hypervelocity Drivers, Ion Beam

Side 2:
2x Devastator; If you can't find Devastators then Flak/Dual Flak work just as well for the intended purpose. I prefer Devastators because they're actually HE damage instead of Frag and deal 500 Dps meaning anything unshielded (Hounds, Cerberus, fighters) is pretty much instantly killed.
PD Lasers in small energy slots; Burst PD in both rear-facing engine-covering turret arcs, Burst PD in two forward-facing arcs

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 22, 2019, 11:57:50 AM
TLDR vs Dominator Hull:
Storm Needler no skills: is 250 dps / 650 fps
With skills: 453.6 dps 650 fps

Mk IX no skills 200dps / 400 fps
With skills 312.5 dps / 400 fps
---


True but the Storm Needler will hit the same spot every time. And the Mark IX will hit a different spot every time. Functionally the storm needler does a LOT more hull DPS and armor DPS(especially because of armor minimum damage %) unless the target can consistently stay outside of its range.

Either way you've got another couple slots there to make hull damage a thing that happens as fast as you need it to.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Grievous69 on May 22, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
I'm just fascinated how every thread about Conquest gains so much traction, almost everyone has its own build for it that just works and I think it shows that Conquest actually IS a well designed ship. Sure broadside ships are not optimal and seem kinda pointless in this game, but I wish every ship had the same build variety as this bad boy.

Anyways I also leave out missiles for hullmods and more vents, and tbh my build is pretty similar to bowman's. I just put phase lance on the medium energy offensive side and give the other side a Heavy autocannon and Dual flak so that it can actually kill something with those Devastators eventually if I'm busy fighting bigger targets on the left side.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 22, 2019, 12:30:40 PM
Yup, its almost like it in general works, and then everyone has their tricks for getting it to be a true killer...

I'm not a fan of too many hullmods on ship in general - its extremely rare for me to put on more than 3 or so on anything.  I usually go Sabots on the medium missiles, Locusts on the larges. 2 Locusts will trivialize all the enemy carriers in a fleet.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 22, 2019, 12:37:55 PM
The trick to making a broadside ship a true killer is the broad-slide.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 22, 2019, 11:28:24 PM
With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 23, 2019, 12:16:01 PM
I mean... There is a relatively hard limit of 11.25 damage/shot (or 7.5 damage/shot) and as a result the Storm Needler ends up doing a lot more damage.

And... there is an issue with armor stripping/hull hitting with regards to hitting fresh armor due to inaccuracy and as a result the Storm Needler ends up doing a lot more damage.

Using the simple armor formula it takes 32 seconds for a Storm Needler to strip the armor from a 1900 armor target. It takes 64 seconds for a Mark IX to strip the armor from a 1900 armor target. And this is assuming perfect accuracy and no recoil on the mark IX...

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.

Its true that the Mark IX only does 20% less DPS than the Storm Needler against hull... But like.. you have to hit the same point of the hull in order to do this and the mark x can barely hit the broadside of a barn.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 23, 2019, 01:55:26 PM
With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.

Having 100% CR raises damage done by all weapons by 10%. Bonuses in SS stack additively (while penalties multiply), giving 15% from OE3 + 10% from CR = +25%. Target analysis 3 adds +50% to shot strength for purposes of armor penetration.

The percentage damage blocked by residual armor is calculated using damage type, but the total damage is still calculated against hull, not armor.

For a kinetic against hull with residual armor: damage per shot = (per shot damage)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

Or

DPS = (base dps)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

The calculations I showed were for unskilled vs unskilled and skilled vs unskilled. I did the calculations this way because its the most controllable case: its impossible to know what skills the AI is using, but knowing what player skills do is extremely valuable. I pointed out that the skilled vs skilled would be similar to unskilled vs unskilled, probably a little worse.

See this amazing post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.0) by Foof.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 23, 2019, 03:30:53 PM

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 23, 2019, 03:36:54 PM
With all skills (so +25% more base damage) the factor gets up to .484

There is only one skill that boosts guns base damage - Ordnance Expertise III. It gives +15% not 25. Which countered by Damage Control III and its -25% damage to hull.

As far as I know no other bonuses are applied to residual armor. Not sure about damage type. I assumed just as you do that KE is still 0,5 against it. This might be wrong.

So it will be something like:

Shot power 75 * 1,15 (OE III) * 0,5 (KE) = 43,125

Armor 1500 + 10% (AWM) + 300 (HA) = 1950 * 0,05 = 97,5

43,125/(97,5+43,125)=0,31

43,125 * 0,31 = 13,36875 * 0,75 (DC III) = 10,03 per shot

10 shots per second = 100 DPS

If you are to assume that all the armor bonuses apply to residual armor you would get +150 armor all the time and another 0,5 reduction for KE from Advanced Countermeasures I. Personally I dont think this is the case.

Having 100% CR raises damage done by all weapons by 10%. Bonuses in SS stack additively (while penalties multiply), giving 15% from OE3 + 10% from CR = +25%. Target analysis 3 adds +50% to shot strength for purposes of armor penetration.

The percentage damage blocked by residual armor is calculated using damage type, but the total damage is still calculated against hull, not armor.

For a kinetic against hull with residual armor: damage per shot = (per shot damage)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

Or

DPS = (base dps)*((.5*per shot damage)/(.5*per shot damage + residual armor))

The calculations I showed were for unskilled vs unskilled and skilled vs unskilled. I did the calculations this way because its the most controllable case: its impossible to know what skills the AI is using, but knowing what player skills do is extremely valuable. I pointed out that the skilled vs skilled would be similar to unskilled vs unskilled, probably a little worse.

See this amazing post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.0) by Foof.

CR bonuses are mutually nullifying (there is also 10% bonus to damage reduction).

There is nothing new to me under that link. This whole question is based on the assumption that residual armor is still counted as "armor" hence 0,5 reduction for KE. If not - welp...
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 23, 2019, 03:39:38 PM
* sigh *

CR bonuses are not nullified because I was doing a skilled vs unskilled, as I explained multiple times. Even if you are doing skilled vs skilled, the order in which damage reduction is applied will change the math.

So far everything you have posted has been wrong, so I assumed you'd never read that link.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 23, 2019, 04:45:53 PM
* sigh *

CR bonuses are not nullified because I was doing a skilled vs unskilled, as I explained multiple times. Even if you are doing skilled vs skilled, the order in which damage reduction is applied will change the math.

So far everything you have posted has been wrong, so I assumed you'd never read that link.

Yes-yes, you was doing your typical sim-fight. Get out of the sim and play the actual game.

CR damage reduction will be after CR boosted shot power got reduced by armor. And unless that armor reduction is less than 10% of the shot power, CR protection bonus will make matters worse for you.

If you would read the link you posted you'd notice that:

A Note on Hull Damage

Patch 0.8a introduced a modifier on hull damage that equals 5% of the Total Armor Value you have when you enter the battle. This 5% value is fixed value that does not go down and permanently gives hull a small reduction in damage. That means that for something like a Dominator (1500) with Heavy Armor (+300), you’re looking at 5% of 1800 armor, or a permanent 90 armor.

90 Armor doesn’t seem like much but it’s enough to seriously reduce some of the rapid-fire low damage per shot, high DPS weapons like Vulcans.
Vulcans are notoriously flux efficient: 25 damage per 1 flux spent with an overall DPS of 500. Fragmentation damage also does 100% damage to hull so any Vulcan that can get close to a armor-stripped ship is going to kill things extremely quickly and efficiently. However, 25 damage per shot is awfully low…

Damage = 25 * (25 / (25 + 90))
    = 5.43 Damage (78.2% reduction, reducing overall DPS to 109 from 500)


Author does not take into account frag type reduction for armor while calculating damage against residiual armor.

However.

You, here:


It does a bit over double that. Lets take a pretty beefy armor of a Dominator. It has 1500 armor, so its 5% residual rating will be 75. A Storm Needler's per shot damage is 75, or 37.5 for armor penetration because it is kinetic.


Clearly assumed that its not the case.

So this means its you who should read the links you have provided. And the only thing that is questionable in my calculations is that very same assumption. Which you was using anyway.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 23, 2019, 06:37:43 PM

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 23, 2019, 07:48:02 PM
..
Yes-yes, you was doing your typical sim-fight. Get out of the sim and play the actual game.

CR damage reduction will be after CR boosted shot power got reduced by armor. And unless that armor reduction is less than 10% of the shot power, CR protection bonus will make matters worse for you.

...

Because every enemy you fight will have every defensive combat skill... Oh wait, they don't. In fact, it is incredibly rare to encounter one that stacks all of them.

I laid out a clear explanation of every factor I was and was not including in my examples. Both from statements from Alex and also from hard in game testing of damage, I believe they are accurate. I've worked through the math, laying out every factor involved. Your examples don't state what the conditions are and do not get the numbers correct.

Lets work through that CR example to see if they actually cancel in favor of defense! Lets say energy so no damage types, 100 damage vs 100 residual armor, just for simplicity.

No skills: 100 * (100/(100+100)) = 100 * .5 = 50

+10% damage on offense, -10% damage received.
.9*110*(110/(110+100)) = .9*.110*.5238 = 51.86

Oops! Favors the attacker, not the defender.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 23, 2019, 10:08:24 PM

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.

Nice. So, to clarify things, its just hull getting damaged and "armor" is taken only as a fixed reduction coefficient based on the percentage of the total armor value and no armor specific effects are apllied to it?
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 23, 2019, 10:15:47 PM
Because every enemy you fight will have every defensive combat skill...

No because that one with them will ruin your perfect plans for galaxy domination.

I laid out a clear explanation of every factor I was and was not including in my examples.

Which was wrong in the very basis.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 24, 2019, 09:10:50 PM

Also note that your shot power formula is incorrect. The shot power only applies to the armor calculation it does not get halved again for hitting hull. Such you should be doing 20,06 damage/shot to the hull.


I didnt know for sure. Do you have hard proof?

Yes. Experimentally verified and alex told me personally in a discussion of the armor damage reduction formula as applied to hull damage.

Nice. So, to clarify things, its just hull getting damaged and "armor" is taken only as a fixed reduction coefficient based on the percentage of the total armor value and no armor specific effects are apllied to it?


I do not know about armor speficic effects but so long as they apply to the reduction formula and not the armor damage itself they probably apply.

Storm Needlers really dont have a problem with armor or hull compared to mark IX
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 25, 2019, 06:15:59 AM
I made some tests of my own.

No captain. Hullmods for survivability and flux. Didnt try to outturn. Timer starts after my first shot.



Single Storm Needler.

Time to kill sim Dominator - 03:32.



Similar OP loads.


Single Gauss

04:38



Two Mark IX

03:53



Single Mjolnir

02:49



Mark IX + Devastator

02:29



Mark IX + HAG

01:46



Mark IX + Hellbore + double Light Mortars

01:11




For a baseline:

Mark IX + Hellbore + Heavy Blaster + dual Assault Chainguns

00:23

Trading of Mark IX for Storm Needler changes nothing.




Conclusion:

KE is utterly useless as a main weapon. For a support weapon Mark IX is the best option since its only 8 OP. All the fancy  weapons actually just suck. Low tec archaic weaponry is the best waifu.

PS Also tried AI controlled scenarios. It was already said somewhere by someone but I will repeat - AI got brocken if it has less range than opponent. Like completely brocken. Do not even bother with AI gun ships wo decent range advantage.

PPS Who even plays in the no-skill ships!? My condolences. It is a pain.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 25, 2019, 06:42:11 AM
Alright, so after running my own experiments which aren't nearly as exhaustive as the ones above I've come to the conclusion that Mjolenor (or however you spell it, I haven't seen Avengers) aren't as good as I thought they'd be.

It's disappointing what the guy above said. It really is true that basic, old weapons are better than fancy advanced ones. Which I suppose makes sense given the setting; an AK47 will serve you better in some backwater war-torn Hellhole cut off from civilization than some fancy delicate laser rifles.

Still, as a player you want some progression and fitting your tub with the same-old standbyes will get boring. I think the solution is to make these weapons become truly rare and powerful rather than only somewhat rare and underwhelming. Think of the advanced weapons systems of the Imperium of Man in 40k and how they've straight up lost the blueprints (or STCs) for a lot of their cool *** and how they go to such great lengths to recover rare weapons lost in the field; the game should treat advanced weapons like that.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on May 25, 2019, 07:48:54 AM
Mjolnir as Thor's hammer is from Norse mythology.

Mjolnirs for Conquest is good, but its flux costs are high enough that it is less than ideal if your primary enemies do not need that much power to kill.  Pirates certainly do not need such fancy weapons to kill.  Flux efficient loadout that AI can use without killing itself is more useful.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 25, 2019, 08:34:25 AM
Well you are trying to kill a dominator which has crap shields and lots of armor, so it's no surprise that you found that weapons which do double damage to shields and half damage to armor made less of a difference... KE are necessary to get through shields, HE is necessary to get through armor, they do different things. Try the same test on a ship with good shields and bad armor (like apogee) and you will get different results.

Also, performance in a 1v1 isn't always the point of a weapon. Gauss is for abusing range advantage so it has intentionally worse ttk for balance.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 25, 2019, 09:28:09 AM
Sim has only d-moded Eagle to offer. And it has somewhat harder shields (0,8). But in general its way weaker and its Time-to-Kill is noticeably lower. Pristine one and Aurora are too fast.

Also the great thing about Hellbore is that AI do not do "vent in your face". With Storm Needler (and any low per shot damage guns) its typical move so you have to raise enemy's flux again and again.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 25, 2019, 10:00:40 AM
I would hesitate to declare kinetic is useless as a main weapon when the data point is fighting a Dominator (a heavy armor ship), especially in a 1v1 test, which are useful but don't tell the whole story. This is because, as I'm sure you know, in a real fight the AI has escorts and will try and retreat to vent. There needs to be enough kinetic to break shields in a reasonably quick time frame AND enough HE to punish the enemy once shields are down. This calculation also changes depending on enemy: bring more HE vs low tech and more Kinetic vs high tech and Remnants.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 25, 2019, 11:43:29 AM
And this is why missiles exist. But the funniest fact is that even Sabots work best with Hellbore. AI invariably keeps its shield up and gets overloaded.

This way, for the Conquest, priorities look like that:

1. Missiles. Here you actually tune the mix up adding KE, HE or Frag in right proportions.
2. Big mounts. Mark IX and Hellbore. Since they are only 14 OP and provide best mix of damage in the game for these points.
3. Mediums. Final touch. They are a thing mostly if opponent is slow enough to get into brawling range. Or there is a decent ECM. Evything else is not critical.
4. Small ones. PD.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 25, 2019, 12:15:15 PM
Why not a storm needler and hellbore?

Also if the only ships you have to shoot at are dominators then yes those fits work fine.

But not every ship is a dominator, with huge inefficient shields, massive armor, and 30 speed.

As soon as you have to take down destroyers or frigates you will really like having the weapons that can hit them
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 25, 2019, 12:42:58 PM
Storm Needler is 10 points (or one medium missile pod) more OP than Mark IX.

As soon as I have to take on fleets I, for the very least, level up. But, honestly, even without skill Antique Conquest can handle small targets.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 25, 2019, 06:05:00 PM
10 OP of worth it. You show yourself its better than two mark IX for only 2 OP more
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 26, 2019, 12:29:53 AM
10 OP of worth it. You show yourself its better than two mark IX for only 2 OP more

Quote
Single Storm Needler.
Time to kill sim Dominator - 03:32.

Not worth it.

Quote
Two Mark IX
03:53

Not worth it.

Quote
Mark IX + Hellbore + Heavy Blaster + dual Assault Chainguns
00:23

Worth it.

Is it that hard to realize that since desired TTK is 23 seconds, Storm Needler with its generous 212 seconds is not the major damage dealer here? And this is why:

Quote
Trading of Mark IX for Storm Needler changes nothing.

And by picking Storm Needler you are just wasting 10 OP which could be better spent elsewhere.

It was said that there are other types of opponents with stronger shields. Yes, there are. But its not that they dont have armor which will turn SN into a weapon what is dealing single digit damage per shot.

You see, this is the problem:

(https://i.imgur.com/iGgSmSQ.png)

Replacing Enforcer with Brilliant will not make SN a better tool since Brilliant have even more armor than this particular Enforcer and it has even more flux to vent into your face while making you break its 0,6 shield again and again.

I tried spawning the Remnants in the campaign.

Fulgent with 4000 hp, 360 armor, 7700 flux and 0,48 shield managed to vent 6 (six) times before it got destroyed.

When I switched to Mark IX + Hellbore, Fulgent with 4000 hp, 360 armor, 8700 flux and 0,43 shield didnt vent even once.

Brilliant and Storm Needler? I literally lost count of the ventings. It was above 20 (twenty).

So, in practical sense, against Fulgent and with the Storm Needler I had to remove 46200 flux points, while with Mark IX + Hellbore combo - only 8700. Not counting flux which was replenished when shield was off and spent on weaponry.

Against those advanced enemies Storm Needler is even less usefull as a primary weapon. All it does is slowly raising their flux level giving them plenty of time to react and their typical reaction is just to ignore it. This is not how you kill things and they know it.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Gotcha! on May 26, 2019, 01:16:34 AM
I like this one as well;  ;D
(https://avatar.home.xs4all.nl/crap/conquest.png)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: From a Faster Time on May 26, 2019, 02:52:20 AM
10 OP of worth it. You show yourself its better than two mark IX for only 2 OP more
Quote
Single Storm Needler. Ordnance points 28(18OP on conquest)
Time to kill sim Dominator for 18OP - 03:32.
Not worth it.
Quote
Two Mark IX Ordnance points 18 (8points for Conquest)
03:53 for 16 OP
Not worth it.
Quote
Mark IX 8 + Hellbore 6 + Heavy Blaster 12  + dual Assault Chainguns 20
00:23 for 46 OP
Worth it.
Is it that hard to realize that since desired TTK is 23 seconds, Storm Needler with its generous 212 seconds is not the major damage dealer here? And this is why:

Every time I see your posts, it's something like this
Quote
Single Storm Needler. Ordnance points 28(18OP on conquest)
Time to kill sim Dominator for 18OP - 03:32.
Quote
Mark IX 8 + Hellbore 6 + Heavy Blaster 12  + dual Assault Chainguns 20
00:23 for 46 OP
You compare 18OP Single damage type vs 46OP mixed damage type and then say "wow look at the time to kill, its much lower worth.
It's like saying a frigade is bad, because 2 capitals are better.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 26, 2019, 05:01:46 AM
Baseline time is there to tell you what can you squeeze from the ship and what the goal is. This is what worth the pay.

Everything before that is showing you how different parts of the setup are affecting the end result and how they help to achieve the said goal.

And the point was that spending too much on the KE doesnt bring you closer to your goal. Actually it just happened that Hellbore is the most effective thing out there since it frightens AI and prevents it from casually regenerating the flux by venting and makes him stuck in high flux situation when it stops blocking Hellbore shots since they will cause overload (and AI still OK to block low damage HE shots).

After further testing it was found that this effect is the same for any weapons that AI counts as Major HE Threat. Harpoon, Athropos etc. But all guns with the exception of the Hellbore are neglected. So its unique.

This leads us to a conclusion that any weapon setup targeted against shielded targets, especially heavy shielded, must have high yield HE weapon in it. KE is needed only to get target to high flux zone and after that KE efficiency drops radically while dealing with armor.

There is no sense in spending noticable amount of OP for saving 5 seconds on rising flux faster so that you will lose 50 seconds  on destroying the armor and the actual hull.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 26, 2019, 05:47:41 AM
Decided to remove KE entirely.

Got 0:51 for the Heavy Blaster + Hellbore combo. Thats still the same 18 OP as a whole Storm Needler.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 26, 2019, 06:18:21 AM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 26, 2019, 06:22:46 AM
Its not even heated... yet.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: From a Faster Time on May 26, 2019, 07:36:26 AM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.
Yes every single *** time. Doubly so if Lucky33 is involved, he is the top troll/bait artist on these forums.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Igncom1 on May 26, 2019, 07:41:49 AM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.

Lol yeah, it's a controversial ship due to it's uniqueness in the roster. Some people love it, others despise it.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: StarScum on May 26, 2019, 09:52:48 AM
Well, the AI can't use it for ***. It refuses to turn to bring its broadside fully to bear and it uses its weapons for inappropriate targets, like using heavies to engage fighter craft...
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Goumindong on May 26, 2019, 11:06:00 AM
Sorry youre not going to convince me the mark IX is good by showing no margin on the swap and then adding two assault chainguns and sugesting that that is a reasonable build.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 26, 2019, 11:26:18 AM
Mark IX is not good. Its cheap. Hellbore is good. And cheap. Storm Needler is neither good nor cheap.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on May 26, 2019, 06:47:34 PM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.
Yes every single *** time. Doubly so if Lucky33 is involved, he is the top troll/bait artist on these forums.
Now this is something we can all agree on!
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: lethargie on May 27, 2019, 01:52:15 PM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.
Yes every single *** time. Doubly so if Lucky33 is involved, he is the top troll/bait artist on these forums.
Now this is something we can all agree on!
I would agree too.

Conquest are fun to setup because you have access to tons of different way to use it. Its even more true with mods that add weapon. You got access to medium/large missile and ballistic and small/medium energy. The result is you get a lot of different debatable viable builds.

I personnaly like the storm needler, I put most of my weapon as HE, then use only the storm needler with an ion beam. When the hard flux is high I stop using the storm needler and start all the other weapons. The only real problem I had was with the short range of the storm needler, but then again the mark ix only got more range if you're shooting a capital since its horribly inaccurate

Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 27, 2019, 10:39:14 PM
Yes every single *** time. Doubly so if Lucky33 is involved, he is the top troll/bait artist on these forums.

Now this is something we can all agree on!

I would agree too.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/LlKYHXH4KmtlSP4Wva/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Zelnik on May 29, 2019, 10:58:32 AM
4x Mjolnir cannons, 4x dual flak, 2 heavy burst lasers in the front position, cyclone reaper launchers in the front, no secondary missiles. This is a beast for combat and will pummel to death most of your enemies.

Just be sure you have a lot of carrier support.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Retry on May 29, 2019, 11:41:56 AM
Does the Conquest usually inspire such heated arguments? I've stopped reading the thread cause it just devolved into mind-numbing number crunching.
Yes every single *** time. Doubly so if Lucky33 is involved, he is the top troll/bait artist on these forums.
Now this is something we can all agree on!
I would agree too.
Put me down in the "agreement" camp too.

I'm not overly impressed with Hellbore myself, with its slow speed and low fire rate it's so easy to shield-flicker the round away (or an unlucky collision with a hostile Talon), even if it would theoretically maul armor on a good hit.  And AI seems to like that shield flicker.

I like the Storm Needler, bit short range for me though and not a whole lot of platforms that can handle the flux (Conquest being the exception in Vanilla).

If I use a Conquest I usually do 2x Gauss Rifles on one side + flak for long-range artillery and 2x Mjolnirs on the other for closer-ranged brawling.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Vind on May 29, 2019, 08:59:07 PM
Using 2xGauss 2xHVD and 2xHellbores conquest - AI prefers to "tank" hellbore shots for some reason with expected results. Maybe because gausses/HVDs raise flux before first slow hellbore shot arrives. This AI oversight makes this build extremely useful vs pirate raids.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on May 29, 2019, 09:54:39 PM

I'm not overly impressed with Hellbore myself, with its slow speed and low fire rate it's so easy to shield-flicker the round away (or an unlucky collision with a hostile Talon), even if it would theoretically maul armor on a good hit.  And AI seems to like that shield flicker.


Thats a theory. Which was debunked by the tests above. For the most time while shield flickering in the nearly overloaded state AI will let Hellbore shots through. They get blocked only in the early stage while AI has flux. And at minimal HP when AI raises shield no matter what.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on June 06, 2019, 10:57:18 AM
Since this topic is not too dead yet to qualify as necromancy...

I started playing around with loadouts since my Mark IX and HAG loadout lost steam against the capital spam, and did not do well against Remnant's Radiants.

I needed a loadout that was effective against big things and that the AI could use (since I pilot Paragon flagship).

I tried Storm Needler again and I liked it.  Melts shields and wrecks things fast when paired with Heavy Mortars.  I was eager to send it at Radiants only to discover a problem... default (Steady) AI refused to get close enough to fire Storm Needlers, and got picked off by snipers or mobs.  All of Storm Needlers' DPS... wasted because AI was too cowardly to get in close and wreck stuff.  Later, I tried it against SIM Onslaught, and AI Conquest kept running away from TPCs and Annihilator spam.  It just would not get close enough to fire those needlers!

Next, Gauss and tac laser spam with Advanced Optics and IPDAI, for 1200 range attacks.  If the AI was cowardly, then maybe it can attack while being a coward.  Problem:  Steady AI just ran further away just beyond Gauss range and barely fired guns at all, even if it outranged the enemy!  Also useless.

Next, dual Mjolnir.  No more flux intensive than Storm Needlers, and Steady AI hovered at the correct range to fire them!  No problem, right?  Wrong.  It did not punch through shields (of SIM capitals) quickly enough.  When it did, it was reasonably effective.  Still, needing to wait a while before shields drop while firing flux intensive weapons is not good enough when the likes of Radiant (or other battleships) and friends win the flux war first.

So... Gauss and Storm Needler are useless because AI just would not fight.  Mjolnir alone was not enough.  That means if I want kinetic for anti-shield that steady AI can use competently with other weapons, then I need to use Mark IX, even if it is mildly inaccurate.  And I need more attack power from the medium ballistics.

After experimenting with 1000 range weapons like Heavy Mauler, HVD, and Ion Beam, I noticed AI hovered a bit further away more to interfere with effective use of 900 range weapons.  Thus, those are out if I want to rely on 900 range weapons for the heavy hitting.  Weapon range has to be higher than 700 too because AI could not (get close enough to) use the ultimate shield-killer Storm Needler.  With no 900 range medium weapons, I needed 800 range, which meant either Heavy Autocannon or Heavy Needler.  Since accuracy can be a problem on unskilled AI ships, not to mention I need high DPS and good efficiency, I settled with Heavy Needler for medium mount.

So... abandoning dual flak in mediums, I tried the following in the ballistics:  Mark IX on the front heavy, Hellbore on the rear heavy, and heavy needlers in both mediums.  Medium energy got filled with more burst PD to pick up the PD slack.  I tried in it the simulator, and mostly unskilled AI wrecked Onslaught.  Lots of kinetic DPS to blow through shields... that the AI got close enough and fired... even the 800 range Heavy Needlers!  And Hellbore blows big holes in armor.  Satisfied with anti-capital performance, I tried it on a mob of smaller ships.  It did not work as well (as the Mark IX, HAG, and dual flak combo) due to overreliance of kinetic to counter big ships like Radiants.  Still, if I need Conquest for anti-capital duty, this is a promising loadout.  But if I need an all-rounder, this is not good enough.

Next, I replaced Hellbore with Mjolnir, and removed the heavy needlers in the rear (for an empty medium ballistic on both sides) for one heavy needler per side instead of two (between Mark IX and Mjolnir), due to flux use and needing more OP.  I tried it in the simulator.  It was not quite as optimized for anti-capital like the last loadout, but it was effective enough.  It held up much better against a group of small ships.  With the extra OP, I can use heavy burst PD, get more hullmods to improve flux stats (Flux Distributor or Stablized Shields), or give up the extra burst PD in medium mounts and get Expanded Missile Racks for more Locust spam.

I have yet to try my new loadouts against the Remnants, or multi-capital deserter fights for that matter.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Lucky33 on June 06, 2019, 11:19:58 AM
Remnants have ECM. Lots of it. You need to go full ECM yourself just to keep up with them and not let them have a range bonus.

Also they have very effective shields and, typically, its way more effective to delegate shield-bashing to missiles and fighters. Because zero flux.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: From a Faster Time on June 07, 2019, 07:19:28 AM
Here is the general idea
(https://i.postimg.cc/9z7dRR3x/Conquest-theres-mistakes-in-my-loadout.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9z7dRR3x)

Here is what I used for for flexible fun.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4nPJ2xVJ/original-design-doughnut-steel.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4nPJ2xVJ)
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on June 07, 2019, 08:03:54 AM
Got a chuckle out of me with that single Harpoon there.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Megas on June 07, 2019, 09:51:16 AM
Tried the loadouts again with different behavior.  Storm Needlers work under Aggressive or Reckless AI.  Steady is too cowardly for Storm Needler loadout to be effective.  Tried Gauss and Tactical Lasers again with more aggressive AI.  It got too close to the enemy, so that is still useless.

I would need to fire one of my level 20 officers if I want to use Aggressive Conquest with Storm Needlers.  I do not want to switch faction behavior just for one ship without an officer.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Chronosfear on June 07, 2019, 10:05:27 AM
Got a chuckle out of me with that single Harpoon there.

Yeah, I would do it just to not have to manually aim any weapon. So I think that's the use of that one, too
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Schwartz on June 07, 2019, 10:35:07 PM
Speaking of which.. the 'hit number above 5 to deselect weapon groups' thing needs to come back.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: Thaago on June 08, 2019, 12:51:26 AM
Isn't that still a thing? I know there was a mod to add an empty group 6 as well.
Title: Re: Kitting a Conquest
Post by: SCC on June 08, 2019, 01:16:56 AM
I thought that I would share my personal fit (https://sectorloadouts.info/view/XHeeKCqMiQm6yASei), too. I don't know how well does the AI use it, but I don't like letting the AI use Conquests anyways.