Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Zomble on March 04, 2019, 09:34:48 AM

Title: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 04, 2019, 09:34:48 AM
Please for the love of god change how the storms effect your ship. So many times my ship will get flung across the map in the wrong direction due to the storms. I would not mind so much if the nebula didn't cover about 70-80% of the world map.

Some suggestions would be;

-Remove AI's auto pathing out of storms.
-Can build straight-path road-like-gates (one at each end on the hyperspace map) which negates any negative effects from nebula/storms so long as you stay on the lane.
-Fix map generation to never cut off stars with a mass of nebula (always allow for a path). Additionally, an ability or check box to automatically path the fastest route to destinations without going through nebula.
-Drastically reduce storm frequency.


EDIT: Also fix the map to show more accurately nebula location. Even without starscrape selected the map does not show an accurate representation of the nebula.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Alex on March 04, 2019, 09:59:39 AM
Hi there! Just wanted to mention that if you use Emergency Burn, you can punch right through storms and actually use them to go faster and shave time off your trip. At the expense of some supplies to repair damage from storm strikes, but that's generally not too bad.

The game could definitely stand to make that clear somewhere, hmm. That's not to say that they'd be in a perfect place otherwise, but it definitely feels to me like something where once you have a feel for all the mechanics involved, it more or less just works out. But it seems like it's also frustrating if one doesn't. I do appreciate your feedback!
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Serenitis on March 04, 2019, 10:15:26 AM
Something to consider is to make the E-Burn panel flash when the fleet is 'touching' an active storm cell.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Megas on March 04, 2019, 10:35:09 AM
Something to consider is to make the E-Burn panel flash when the fleet is 'touching' an active storm cell.
With a big fleet, that will not help because some ship takes a big enough hit to send CR too low and prevent E-Burn.  E-Burn should be done before a storm strike.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 04, 2019, 05:48:52 PM
Hi there! Just wanted to mention that if you use Emergency Burn, you can punch right through storms and actually use them to go faster and shave time off your trip. At the expense of some supplies to repair damage from storm strikes, but that's generally not too bad.

The game could definitely stand to make that clear somewhere, hmm. That's not to say that they'd be in a perfect place otherwise, but it definitely feels to me like something where once you have a feel for all the mechanics involved, it more or less just works out. But it seems like it's also frustrating if one doesn't. I do appreciate your feedback!

The auto pathing is what really bothers me and feels very arbitrary to have it in place rather than; "IF storm hits THEN take X damage" along with "IF storm hits AND damage applied in the last X seconds THEN do nothing". This would eliminate rapid stacking of storm procs while removing the super speed auto path which seems like it's in place because the same storm can (I think) proc damage multiple times, which if you were moving slow enough it would kill your fleet very quickly.

Idk, it just doesn't seem like it fits and it's very immersion breaking. It would be like if you were running along and you tripped. But instead of falling over you would teleport 10 feet away with a bruised knee.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Alex on March 04, 2019, 05:59:40 PM
The auto pathing is what really bothers me and feels very arbitrary to have it in place rather than; "IF storm hits THEN take X damage" along with "IF storm hits AND damage applied in the last X seconds THEN do nothing". This would eliminate rapid stacking of storm procs while removing the super speed auto path which seems like it's in place because the same storm can (I think) proc damage multiple times, which if you were moving slow enough it would kill your fleet very quickly.

Hmm, interesting - what you're describing is similar to how it works, at least as far as damaging storm strikes - those are limited to about one every 5 seconds, on average.

The speed boost (which I think is what you mean by auto-pathing?) can apply more often than that and is tied to the animation of the storm strikes. The direction a strike pushes you in is away from the cell the strike is in, so you can to a degree control which way you go by controlling the angle at which you hit a storm cell. If you head directly into a storm, you either need e-burn on to punch through, or chances are you'll get bounced back out.

The reason the rapid stacking is there is because it's something the player can make use of to speed up travel, especially when paired with e-burn and a certain hullmod. It's also possible to spot glowing cells that are about to break into storm and pass over them so that you benefit from the strike when it happens just behind your fleet.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 04, 2019, 09:26:23 PM
The auto pathing is what really bothers me and feels very arbitrary to have it in place rather than; "IF storm hits THEN take X damage" along with "IF storm hits AND damage applied in the last X seconds THEN do nothing". This would eliminate rapid stacking of storm procs while removing the super speed auto path which seems like it's in place because the same storm can (I think) proc damage multiple times, which if you were moving slow enough it would kill your fleet very quickly.

Hmm, interesting - what you're describing is similar to how it works, at least as far as damaging storm strikes - those are limited to about one every 5 seconds, on average.

The speed boost (which I think is what you mean by auto-pathing?) can apply more often than that and is tied to the animation of the storm strikes. The direction a strike pushes you in is away from the cell the strike is in, so you can to a degree control which way you go by controlling the angle at which you hit a storm cell. If you head directly into a storm, you either need e-burn on to punch through, or chances are you'll get bounced back out.

The reason the rapid stacking is there is because it's something the player can make use of to speed up travel, especially when paired with e-burn and a certain hullmod. It's also possible to spot glowing cells that are about to break into storm and pass over them so that you benefit from the strike when it happens just behind your fleet.

Eh you can't realy control its direction unless you sit on the front central hit box of a zone, but then you get pushed off centre on other storms. At that point you are at the mercy of RNG. I've been pushed several light years in the wrong direction many times and it's complete bogus. There is no skill to master, only RNGesus. And it does not make a journey quicker because of that.

Btw what I described was to have no knock back mechanic but still include close to the same damage taken when moving through storms. Currently It's not a fun mechanic and it doesn't make sense even in a sci-fi sense.

This is how I look at it:
-If hyperspace travel time is too slow by default, there are plenty of other ways to reduce that which are far more immersive.
-If nebula are suppose to be more like soft-walls then give us a good reason not to ever want to go into them AND give us a accurate nebula map with no cut off sections (ie. no nebula cutting off access to a cluster of stars unless those stars are generated to be somehow unique or worth traversing nebula).
-It's not immersive to see my fleet look like it just did a sudden speed hack for 1 second and then another, and another.
-It does not make sense gameplay wise. It does not look immersive. And it's frustrating watching the game effectively play by itself.
-Did I mention it's not immersive?

Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: MesoTroniK on March 04, 2019, 09:55:38 PM
Quick suggestion Alex, if help tooltips are on? Make it pop a message the first time you hit a hyperspace storm and have it explicitly mention Emergency Burn and what it does in relation to them.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Alex on March 04, 2019, 10:12:08 PM
Quick suggestion Alex, if help tooltips are on? Make it pop a message the first time you hit a hyperspace storm and have it explicitly mention Emergency Burn and what it does in relation to them.

Yeah, that's probably a good idea - made a note. E-burn just counters these completely.

With a big fleet, that will not help because some ship takes a big enough hit to send CR too low and prevent E-Burn.  E-Burn should be done before a storm strike.

Let me make a note to make sure storm strikes don't disable e-burn by taking ship CR too low if at all possible. I think I might've done that already in the dev build, but in any case, yeah, it'll be good to make sure reactive instead of pre-emptive e-burn remains an option as fleets get larger.

Eh you can't realy control its direction unless you sit on the front central hit box of a zone, but then you get pushed off centre on other storms. At that point you are at the mercy of RNG. I've been pushed several light years in the wrong direction many times and it's complete bogus. There is no skill to master, only RNGesus. And it does not make a journey quicker because of that.

It's not precise, but you can definitely control it to a degree. I just spent a couple of minutes flying through storms without getting caught in... a cascade, I guess we can call it - though I know exactly what you mean - and without getting knocked off course much. But, yeah, emergency burn is the quick and easy answer to any storm-related problems :)

(And, I'll say, I do understand that getting caught in a cascade is frustrating. The game should definitely explain that you can e-burn to get out of that.)
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 05, 2019, 09:36:05 AM
Eh you can't realy control its direction unless you sit on the front central hit box of a zone, but then you get pushed off centre on other storms. At that point you are at the mercy of RNG. I've been pushed several light years in the wrong direction many times and it's complete bogus. There is no skill to master, only RNGesus. And it does not make a journey quicker because of that.

It's not precise, but you can definitely control it to a degree. I just spent a couple of minutes flying through storms without getting caught in... a cascade, I guess we can call it - though I know exactly what you mean - and without getting knocked off course much. But, yeah, emergency burn is the quick and easy answer to any storm-related problems :)

(And, I'll say, I do understand that getting caught in a cascade is frustrating. The game should definitely explain that you can e-burn to get out of that.)

Yeah, but notice how nobody has explained why this mechanic exists or at the very least if it's the best (or most fun) mechanic to have implemented. I reckon nobody would suggest the speed-up-auto-pilot-when-hit-by-nebula-storm mechanic if it didn't exist to begin with. Which is the point of this thread.

A dumb mechanic is a dumb mechanic regardless of how much you play around it.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Megas on March 05, 2019, 11:04:01 AM
With E-Burn, player can have precise control where he goes when hit.  Without it, then yes, player has little control.

@ Alex:  Reactive E-Burn being possible later sounds nice.  Currently, I need to pre-emptively use E-Burn before I ride storms with a gigantic fleet.

Quote
A dumb mechanic is a dumb mechanic regardless of how much you play around it.
Storms before 0.9 were horrible.  They slowed your fleet to a crawl (even through S-Burn) and voraciously devoured supplies very quickly.  Get caught deep in one, and you might as well reload the game on the spot.

0.9 storms are more useful than not.  They are an annoyance if your fleet gets caught and cannot E-Burn to control where it goes.  I like storms because travel through much of the sector at burn 30 is very convenient.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Alex on March 05, 2019, 11:07:36 AM
@ Alex:  Reactive E-Burn being possible later sounds nice.  Currently, I need to pre-emptively use E-Burn before I ride storms with a gigantic fleet.

(Just finished up implementing this, along with a help popup re: storms and e-burn.)
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 05, 2019, 12:35:41 PM
Quote
A dumb mechanic is a dumb mechanic regardless of how much you play around it.
Storms before 0.9 were horrible.  They slowed your fleet to a crawl (even through S-Burn) and voraciously devoured supplies very quickly.  Get caught deep in one, and you might as well reload the game on the spot.

0.9 storms are more useful than not.  They are an annoyance if your fleet gets caught and cannot E-Burn to control where it goes.  I like storms because travel through much of the sector at burn 30 is very convenient.


I have little doubt that nebula storms were bad before 0.9 (I didn't play prior to 0.9 so I'll take your word for it). But that doesn't change the fact they are at best an un-immersive and arbitrary game mechanic right now. I mean, if you went and stood out in the blazing sun all day and then stood in a walk-in freezer for hours. Being previously too hot doesn't mean you no longer feel cold. My point is I don't think we should ever suggest "it use to be bad" to excuse a current lacklustre mechanic.

Forgive me for being blunt but currently the way it works now is shite for reasons stated in previous posts.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Megas on March 05, 2019, 02:02:59 PM
It being worse before is not to excuse a bad mechanic, but I do not think storms in 0.9a are a bad mechanic.  If anything, I consider them a mostly beneficial powerup, or more precisely, a speedup to reduce tedium.  Of course, storms could be bad because the benefits could be too good or required to avoid tedium.  (Not saying that they are, just it could be a possible reason.)  However, tips for the less savvy (i.e., those who neither know nor figure out the quirks and mechanics of storms) are not a bad idea.

Maybe storms are luckluster (I have not thought enough in the game to know), but if the player can exploit the benefits, then they serve a purpose, even if it is gamist... which is probably expected in a game.  It cannot be any worse than springboard or flashing jump zone in a platform game like Super Mario Bros. or Capcom's Trojan.  Storms before 0.9a were nothing but pain to be avoided at all costs.

Maybe nebula could be less common and have less wall clouds.  I have no problem with that.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Vayra on March 05, 2019, 02:49:22 PM
this is how you do be at a hyperspace storm when you do just starting the game and not undetstand them:
(https://i.imgur.com/cQkefhO.png)

this is how you are at a hyperspace storm when you have understand the emergency burn button and timing where you impact the storm cell as it light:
(https://i.imgur.com/vhUJSYt.png)

i like it  ;D be the second one cat

but you can always fly around them if you have many big ships and not efficiency overhaul or solar shielding and not want to take damage

maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: SCC on March 05, 2019, 03:02:32 PM
I wish that the storms knocked bigger fleets off course less. They have more mass and more momentum, but are actually more affected by the storms, because they have less acceleration and this seems to be the main factor determining how severe the pinball effect is.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: IronBorn on March 05, 2019, 03:03:51 PM
It would be nice to be able to change the density and frequency of hyperspace storms when generating a new game. I find them mostly a nuisance, especially since I only have time to play casually these days. If I want to play, I have to start several new games hoping for a more clean hyperspace.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 05, 2019, 05:06:22 PM
this is how you do be at a hyperspace storm when you do just starting the game and not undetstand them:
(https://i.imgur.com/cQkefhO.png)

this is how you are at a hyperspace storm when you have understand the emergency burn button and timing where you impact the storm cell as it light:
(https://i.imgur.com/vhUJSYt.png)

i like it  ;D be the second one cat

but you can always fly around them if you have many big ships and not efficiency overhaul or solar shielding and not want to take damage

maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

You completely missed my point by a mile. I'm pretty sure I made my point clear when I said it's immersive breaking and I don't want to be a nob, however, let me spell it out for anyone who misses my point about the functionality of the mechanic:

I T   M A K E S   N O   S E N S E

Why would a space ship be flung LIGHTYEARS away by what appears to be a storm. You may be able to justify it in your head, but to me I just cannot believe how it would ever even be remotely possible for such a thing to happen even within a sci-fi universe. It would be like if Gandalf just stripped naked and started a porno for 10 mins in LOTR, it does not fit. It completely ruins any sort of immersion I have in the game. Just as many people don't want mods that deter from the vanilla theme too much (examples such as minecraft ships or star trek lore shoehorned into starsector's universe).

I'm not asking for complete realism as on a realistic scale as lot of content doesn't make sense and frankly the game would no longer really be a game worth playing if it tried to be completely realistic (or even a game that functions). But when the game asks me to perform mental gymnastics as to realistically suspend my disbelief then something is wrong in my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Histidine on March 05, 2019, 05:42:51 PM
I've stopped going into storms in my current playthrough because they cost too many supplies with my current fleet size. Maybe I shouldn't insist on having all my officers be in ships, half of which are cruisers and one a capital, but if I swapped them with smaller ships out of storage I'd have to reassign all my officers.
Maybe I should see if auto assign give smart results (carrier officers on carriers, and ideally officers with Missile Specialization on ships with missiles).

You completely missed my point by a mile. I'm pretty sure I made my point clear when I said it's immersive breaking and I don't want to be a nob, however, let me spell it out for anyone who misses my point about the functionality of the mechanic:

I T   M A K E S   N O   S E N S E

Why would a space ship be flung LIGHTYEARS away by what appears to be a storm. You may be able to justify it in your head, but to me I just cannot believe how it would ever even be remotely possible for such a thing to happen even within a sci-fi universe. It completely ruins any sort of immersion I have in the game. Just as many people don't want mods that deter from the vanilla theme too much (examples such as minecraft ships or star trek lore shoehorned into starsector's universe).

Attempt-to-be-helpful response:
Spoiler
It's the hyperspace equivalent of a storm at sea for a sailing ship. It exerts a force on the fleet's drive bubble and blows it away from the storm region. (If you like, you can insert terms like "Casimir effect" and "spacetime curvature" somewhere in there to make it sound more Sciencey and Authentic)
The toss distance is "light years" because everything in hyperspace is light years in normal space. Assuming the distance:screen pixel ratio involved between two locations in hyper is the same as that in normal space, fleets don't move more than a dozen or so light minutes per toss within the shared reference frame, which is still a good distance in a way but far, far from light years.

The implementation of hyper travel in SS is almost purely fictitious anyway, one can make up almost any property for it.
[close]

Maximally snarky response:
Spoiler
Completely fictitious system of FTL travel, with arbitrary design elements like "fleets can only enter and leave at certain points because of Reasons", "properties of hyperspace are not uniform across its surface in a specific way involving specific defined, constant regions" and "you need antimatter fuel to even move but otherwise almost everything works the same as it does in normal space": Immersion

Completely fictitious system of FTL travel, with arbitrary design elements like "fleets can only enter and leave at certain points because of Reasons", "properties of hyperspace are not uniform across its surface in a specific way involving specific defined, constant regions" and "you need antimatter fuel to even move but otherwise almost everything works the same as it does in normal space", plus "certain regions of hyperspace have storms that will damage ships and knock them far off course": No immersion
[close]
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 05, 2019, 06:10:06 PM
I was editing my post while you were replying, feels bad.

Anyway, there is knocking a ship off course, and then there is speed hacking. Combining them isn't believable even in the "we don't understand how it works therefore all logic disappears and your suspension of disbelief is infinite".

It is reasonable to expect players to suspend their disbelief, I do not argue that. But it's not a never ending void. There is a point where it just gets silly. When It looks silly, it probably is silly.

Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Mr. Nobody on March 06, 2019, 01:03:30 AM
If i may add my 2 cents, i'd like some more variety of stuff in hyperspace, maybe you have regions that are more subject to storms, example "clear" (the normal hyperspace with no storm), "misty" (where the storms are quite mild) and "dense" (the thicc cloud we know and love).
Also dunno, streams or currents where the hyperspace is calm enough to not bother the fleet but imparts a speed in its direction.
Tl;dr moar variety pl0x
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Goumindong on March 06, 2019, 11:42:53 AM
Just going to pop in and say i really like the current implementation. It forces you to find ways around and to plan your trips according to what deep hyperspace looks like... or to have excess fuel and supplies for e-burning. I just wish you could turn the staracape off in the intel screen so that you didnt have to tab to the map to see the hyperspace lanes.

Also if there was time it would be great to modify the AI to take hyperspace lanes rather than flying directly.  If hyperspace lanes could be generated at galaxy creation that could make it feasible.

Possible method

1) generate a set of points in space around the core. Two or three circles with fewer points per ly as you go out.
2) draw lines between those points by connecting each one to the closest point on the next centermost circle. This becomes the hyperspace lane.
3) fill in non-hyperspace lanes with deep hyperspace
4) carve out deep hyperspace around clusters

Then when traveling to a non-core world the AI would navigate to the closest hyperspace point to themselves, then to the hyperspace point closest to the star theyre going to and then to the star itself.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: xor0 on March 07, 2019, 04:50:25 AM
Quote
maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

God no please don't nerf the game to please the whiny pinheads, they will keep whining til it is a point-and-click adventure.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Megas on March 07, 2019, 06:03:44 AM
As for not making sense.  If this was in space, there probably should not be space terrain, just... space, mostly.  But in Alex's hyperspace (which is not normal space with stars and planets), it is in an alien dimension and in an alien environment that does not need to make sense.

And since Starsector is a game, gamist elements to make the game play smoothly are justified.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
The default one does not show precise location of nebula, while the other one that shows where they are shows too much and blots out much of the map in a blue haze.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 07, 2019, 12:43:03 PM
Quote
maybe there could be more corridor in the c,oud, that it my only suggestion

God no please don't nerf the game to please the whiny pinheads, they will keep whining til it is a point-and-click adventure.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.

Whining that someone is whining is see. Very classy.

Anyway, your point about "finding your way around" is moot when most of the map is covered in nebula to the point where it's pointless to try finding your way around most of the time. It seems to me like you may be thinking I want the game to be easier when I have not stated anything of the sort.

As for not making sense.  If this was in space, there probably should not be space terrain, just... space, mostly.  But in Alex's hyperspace (which is not normal space with stars and planets), it is in an alien dimension and in an alien environment that does not need to make sense.

And since Starsector is a game, gamist elements to make the game play smoothly are justified.

The hyperspace map shows the cloud densities, part of the game is to plan your route around them. In the past they were a challenge, you had to account for them. Now, the first system you stop off at you can fill up with fuel and supplies til it's coming out your ears.
The default one does not show precise location of nebula, while the other one that shows where they are shows too much and blots out much of the map in a blue haze.

I have no idea what you are talking about with your first paragraph.

There are better ways to make nebula work depending on its desired role in the game. Even from a strictly gameplay point of view it doesn't seem to make sense. It doesn't make anyone consider going around due to it's density, and if it wasn't dense players would still just yolo it. If the nebula storms are there purely to speed boost players then there are far better methods of increasing travel time which doesn't make you instantly think of pinball. One can only come to the logical conclusion that it is a poor mechanic.

The reason why the map is covered in a blue haze is because there is far too much of it, but it still does not show all of the nebula which illustrates just how much there is.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Megas on March 07, 2019, 02:12:43 PM
Quote
I have no idea what you are talking about with your first paragraph.
The point was since hyperspace is an imaginary dimension (or an alien dimension if one wants to try to immerse in it), there is no obligation to make as much sense as normal reality (for trying to be immersed in it).  Maybe the gameplay in hyperspace stinks, and it does not matter if it makes sense or not.  It can make perfect sense (or not) and still be a bad mechanic.

Yes, wall clouds are common, and sometimes, going around clouds is not a practical option.  I cannot argue with that.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 07, 2019, 06:21:48 PM
Some imaginations are more nonsensical than others. Just look at Japanese adverts for example.
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Goumindong on March 07, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
I go around and take the space lanes all the time when traveling. So its definitely doing its job for me
Title: Re: Hyperspace Nebula
Post by: Zomble on March 07, 2019, 08:21:52 PM
I go around and take the space lanes all the time when traveling. So its definitely doing its job for me

You have lanes in your universes? Lucky you.

I never seem to get any sort of path ways. Hell a lot of the time either entire sections of the map are cut off or blocks of stars are engulfed by nebula.