Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Torch on January 07, 2019, 06:22:34 AM
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I've recently found that I default to the same boring playstyle every time, so I'm looking to change it up - what (non-meta) tricks are up your sleeves?
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I've recently found that I default to the same boring playstyle every time, so I'm looking to change it up - what (non-meta) tricks are up your sleeves?
Please elaborate on that. What is the "default" playstyle. What do you find "boring" about it.
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I guess full phase ship fleets are fun and somewhat uncommon to run.
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I always want to run full phase fleets but thryre so hard to acquire.
I had decent success with a high and low build. 5 Apogees fit for tank and support and 20 LP brawlers each fit with 2 Dual Autocannons and 2 Heavy Mortars. The officers in the Apogees can eat a LOT of firepower while the brawlers chew ships up really really fast
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I've recently found that I default to the same boring playstyle every time, so I'm looking to change it up - what (non-meta) tricks are up your sleeves?
Please elaborate on that. What is the "default" playstyle. What do you find "boring" about it.
More of an invitation for open discussion than a request for help. I always take the same ships, take the same skills, and generally just don't change things up, so I wanted to hear what others do. I would like to try a fleet focused on high overall speed, but I don't know enough about fleet burn and retreat mechanics to bother with it yet.
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I've mad a whole fleet of just pirate falcons for their epic speed. Worked pretty well, we had two meant to disable shields with sabot, four DPS with annihilators, and two full of reapers and atropos for killing things. Problem is, in long extended battles our only option was to run, given the great speed though we could escape anything. Found myself basically doing hit and run again and again against larger fleets until we'd killed them off bit by bit.
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More of an invitation for open discussion than a request for help. I always take the same ships, take the same skills, and generally just don't change things up, so I wanted to hear what others do. I would like to try a fleet focused on high overall speed, but I don't know enough about fleet burn and retreat mechanics to bother with it yet.
There is many ideas, so rather than list all of them. I rather give more specific recommendations for certain desires.
"I would like to try a fleet focused on high overall speed"
Easy, if you like missiles try getting a fleet of Pirate Falcons and go heavy on the missiles. They are all fast both in terms of burn and in terms of combat speed.
If you like phase ships, then a phase fleet could work.
If you don't like either, you could focus on a fleet with burndrive/plasmajets/plasma burn/manuvering jets(Manuvering jets being the easiest for AI to use) and having either a mix of those or a single doctrine.
I've mad a whole fleet of just pirate falcons for their epic speed. Worked pretty well, we had two meant to disable shields with sabot, four DPS with annihilators, and two full of reapers and atropos for killing things. Problem is, in long extended battles our only option was to run, given the great speed though we could escape anything. Found myself basically doing hit and run again and again against larger fleets until we'd killed them off bit by bit.
Oh look, I wonder where I heard this before. *looks up* Guess it's a natural choice.
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For me, a "true" full phase fleet wasn't a fun experience. You'll bleed supplies at an alarming rate, and only the Shade is really useful when fielded in higher number (the Doom too, technically, but it's not like you'll be able to afford it for several battle in a row). Worst, you'll end up stuck piloting a Typhoon Harbinger, forever and ever. It's just too good compared to everything else.
As for other unusual strategies, it's something i like to do from time to time, so here's what i did and what i found fun.
- Hardcore salvaging : recover every single ships you come across, with the ship limit removed (to keep it fun for late game). Throwing a swarm of barely functional, under-equipped junk ships into the meatgrinder is unexpectedly joyful.
- Autopilot only : you'll have to rely only on orders to influence the battle. I wrote (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11646.msg218293#msg218293) a little bit about it (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12926.0). Extremely difficult early on though, it's probably better to start normal then go for this mode after acquiring a few ships.
- Shieldless run : Require the Ship and Weapon Pack mod. The mod add a "Shield Bypass" hullmod that removes shields but improved the flux dissipation depending on the original shield upkeep (i think?). Obviously a bit tricky to play, for me it did encourage a more agressive playstyle as a shieldless fleet cannot win an endurance battle.
- Pather run : mandatory Safety Override for everything, force you to play aggressive and smart, as you'll need to set the proper elimination orders to finish quickly a battle. Combine it with the Hardcore Salvaging strat if you're looking for absolute chaos (and shieldless run if you're that kind of sicko).
- Stampede : Buffalo MK.II only. You can add the Mongrel and Amalgam with SWP Edit : the Underworld mod (thanks Retry) if you want (Underworld isn't updated yet, but a new version shouldn't take too long to come out now). It is exactly as you would expect it.
- Excelsior run : Also require SWP. Turn Starsector into an arcade game at the cost of your sanity.
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- Stampede : Buffalo MK.II only. You can add the Mongrel and Amalgam with SWP if you want. It is exactly as you would expect it.
Mongrel/Amalgam are Underworld, I think.
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I like focusing on fleet composition. It leads to very distinctive runs.
- Special forces. Only deploy ships with officers. You'll always be outnumbered, but if your fleet is small enough you can do cool ambush-retreats, targeted bounty assassinations, and ridiculous sensor shenanigans. It teaches you to abuse environmental and CR effects to even out the playing field. Having high burn and low sensor signature helps you pick fights correctly, as does the industry skill removing burn drive's CR penalty. Also helps to have a commission to get a small but elite fleet up quickly via military markets.
- Max ECM. Weapons range seems like one of the more important factors affecting AI behavior. Building a fleet that maintains 25% ECM superiority at all times makes your ships more aggressive and has good synergy with missiles/fighters/assault weapons.
- Logistics powerhouse. Efficiency Overhaul, Salvage Gantries, and the various efficiency skills let you break even on supply usage even while out-deploying the enemy by a ton.
- Roguelike! Start by salvaging ruins in populated systems, then immediately colonize something. Build a fleet from whatever blueprints dropped. This will usually be a couple of elite purchased/salvaged flagships with officers, and then a giant death ball of D-modded frigates or destroyers with the best weapons your colony can churn out. Effectiveness varies by available blueprints.
Modded runs give additional options. It depends on what hull mods drop early on - you can build entire fleet concepts around things like Anti-Ship Mine Bays or Extreme Modifications.
It's also fun to ignore fleet composition and just focus all skill points on your flagship. A properly fitted Onslaught or Legion can solo entire fleets by burning around their edges, killing one ship at a time.
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Visit nearby tritach systems and get 300k loan
Instantly settle random free world inside askonia system
Survive saturation raids, make money
Colonize more planets
Aggo dictat, using patrols spawned from you colonies deal with all patrols
Overraid them to -26
Wait for decivilization
Take all planets for your own use
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I like focusing on fleet composition. It leads to very distinctive runs.
- Special forces. Only deploy ships with officers.
Honestly, due to how big the bonuses are, I almost never deploy ships without officers now. In my opinion, the armour skill, as well as the shield skill, are way too good, and ships without them seem like wet noodles in comparison.
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With my current fleet, six officers would be enough even at max battle size, due to how much DP capitals (and Doom) eat up. If I use default of 200, four officers are already too many.
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Not really an "unusual strategy" per se, but I had quite some fun doing a campaign mostly using Fragmentation weapons. They are surprisingly effective once massed and they also are less used compared to other damage type so the game felt fresh for once.
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With my current fleet, six officers would be enough even at max battle size, due to how much DP capitals (and Doom) eat up. If I use default of 200, four officers are already too many.
A frigate/destroyer hammer to a capital anvil is *really* good, though. In terms of theoretical damage output per deployment point, they're way more efficient than capitals.
Trick is finding the mobility/shield tank/flux pressure sweet spot to ensure they're firing.
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Problem with small ships is peak performance. They do not have enough by the end of the game now that fights in 0.9 are bigger, not to mention occasional battlestation fights in corona or event horizon. The closest I come to small ships now are Falcons. Even cruisers can sometimes run out, especially if I use a smaller map size and have a trickle of cowardly enemies for Mortal Kombat style endurance matches.
However, I do use an Enforcer and Mule swarm during late bounty hunting and early colony game. They get slowly phased out as I acquire bigger ships and better weapons.
Honestly, due to how big the bonuses are, I almost never deploy ships without officers now. In my opinion, the armour skill, as well as the shield skill, are way too good, and ships without them seem like wet noodles in comparison.
Nothing compared to 0.7 era. Ships without officers are viable since 0.8, if not necessarily optimal.
Also, Impact Mitigation 1 is bugged, increasing armor more than it should. I think 50% more on top of +150.
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Unsure how that's calculated while bugged to be fair. But i'd rather have the 150 straight up armor boost.
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As The Wet Fish found out, Impact Mitigation 1 increases armour value 2,5 times for damage reduction calculation, instead of adding flat 150 armour.
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As The Wet Fish found out, Impact Mitigation 1 increases armour value 2,5 times for damage reduction calculation, instead of adding flat 150 armour.
lolwut
Wow. I use IM anyway but that's...funny...to me.
To contribute:
I tried a "Hammerhead Swarm" in my last playthrough. I have about 10 Hammerheads, 2 Drovers, and a few Tempests (in addition to logistical ships). All ships are officere'd and 8 are outfitted with ITU Heavy Maulers or HVDs, Tac Lasers in all four small slots (with IPDAI), and Reapers in the missiles. I have two medium-range ships with ITU Autocannons and Heavy Mortars, EMP/LAG in front slots and LRPD in the back.
I was very surprised how well they punch above their weight. I lose some every once awhile but repairing them isn't that hard and finding new ones isn't hard either. When they group together, the combined Tac Laser spam is fun to watch and they really don't have a hard time with fighters/missiles. It also helps that they're all near flux parity so they win flux wars one-on-one. I've taken down capitals and stations with this setup and they're not logistically heavy or slow on the campaign map either.
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(https://i.imgur.com/VWNdN10.png)
- No creating colonies until you have explored everything
- No renting storage
- No leaving things in abandoned places
There's a weird tension between exploring something now while you're there to save on fuel & supplies, vs. offloading your loot somewhere for cash to keep you going. And a constant pressure to acquire more transport ships.
(https://i.imgur.com/pIgcdan.png)
- All your combat ships must have a weapon mount capable of fitting a medium missile
- All your combat ships must fit pilum launchers in any mount that can accomodate them
Can you stand the crushing disappointment of sub-optimal play long enough to achieve critical mass?
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Makes me sad for the Pilums. :-\ Not sure how to buff them though.
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Entirely combat freighters. Fielding a fleet of Mules made me have much more respect for combat freighters.
Or Hound and Wolf pack. Hounds can act as both combat ships and logistic support ships with Expanded Holds and Extended Tanks. Wolves work well with other frigates. A pack with both ends up swarming and overwhelming early game enemies.
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Entirely combat freighters. Fielding a fleet of Mules made me have much more respect for combat freighters.
My last two or three games, about half of my fleet are Mules I recover from pirates, with most of the rest Enforcers. I slowly phase them out as I get bigger and better ships.
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The pirate Mule is very good, I like to fit a Mining Blaster on it. Is it intended for the pirate Mule variant to be better in every way? Once restored it has the same stats, except that universal mount, as well as shielded cargo hold.
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The pirate Mule is very good, I like to fit a Mining Blaster on it. Is it intended for the pirate Mule variant to be better in every way? Once restored it has the same stats, except that universal mount, as well as shielded cargo hold.
Pirate Mule used to be classic Starfarer Mule without the Shielded Cargo Holds and pirate paint job. Modern Mule kept only the paint job from its Starfarer self, but not the mounts.
Now that Mule traded Energy mount for composite (which uses superior ballistics), pirate and normal are interchangeable, unless you really want an energy weapon (that probably does not have flux stats for). I do not smuggle so Shielded Holds do not help me.
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Makes me sad for the Pilums. :-\ Not sure how to buff them though.
Mix in Salamanders with ECCM and an officer's missile skill. Or Claw wings, or enough Ion Beams and kinetic damage, etc.
Disabled engines make Pilums shine against everything but flak.
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Pilums have low hp and speed at the same time. You don't need flak against them. Literally any PD is good enough. Plus, it's not like they do much shield damage, intentionally catching them with shield works too (to clear up arena).
Even worse, there is no single ship system that would have good synergy with Pilums (and regenerator missiles in general). Fast missile racks do not help you regenerate Pilums any faster. Missile autoforge is wasted on them as well.
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Pilums are weak and slow enough that even stock Mining Lasers are effective against them.
@ TaLaR: Fast Missile Racks are good with unlimited missiles (like Salamander) if the missile is good, which is probably why both Salamanders went from 500 damage to 100 damage, and Fast Missile Racks going from unlimited to three charges. When Salamander first because unlimited, ships with fast missile racks became overpowered because they could spam Salamanders and kill ships from beyond fog-of-war. That is why Salamanders are weak as they are, and Fast Missile Racks has regenerating charges instead of unlimited. Those that regenerate ammo like Pilums are not so useful, but during the time when Pilums were almost as fast as Harpoons, pumping out a ton of them was useful back then.
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Have you... Tried this? In-game? Recently?
There's a critical mass of Pilums where the enemy fighter screens and PD can't clear them out. The exact count depends on your own interceptors, flare-equipped fighters, long-range kinetic suppression, etc.
Once there's a Macross-tier Pilum field deployed, several things happen:
- AI ships are intimidated and less likely to push forward. It doesn't feel like the AI can differentiate between an incoming Harpoon swarm and low-threat Pilums, so it treats both with the same respect. (This is also what makes Diable Avionics micromissiles so useful.)
- Enemy ships with disabled engines and high-flux are suddenly in great danger. Pilums are very effective at stripping armor, you just need to build your fleet around kinetic+fragmentation damage with some EMP for disabling engines.
- All of this happens in your back line. Your front line ships are free to do whatever, be whatever - the Pilum/Salamander/Broadsword hell-curtain is coming exclusively from support ships and escort frigates. (Although you can do it with front line ships too. Try a Legion with kinetic large guns, Pilums, and some mix of flare-equipped kinetic fighters/claws/interceptors.) Your front line can now bring more fragmentation damage to destroy ships faster, or carry additional PD/spend points on logistics hullmods.
- This concentrated fire is less mobile and far-reaching than what carrier-heavy fleets can do, but looks extremely cool. It's also more point-effective than stacking fighters and bombers, so the enemy is eager to engage the fleet and you don't have to inefficiently over-deploy then cry about "coward AI" evading your obviously superior force. ;)
The 30-clip (60 with EMR) limit just means Fast Missile Rack ships fire in an initial burst then level off. That many Pilum volleys is a ton of threat from a very safe range. This won't work on a Flak-covered Onslaught without a ton of EMP, but it grinds through most ships in the game.
Unusual strategies aren't as effective as the current fighter/bomber dominance, but everything posted so far is viable with a bit of creativity in your fleet composition.
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Unusual strategies aren't as effective as the current fighter/bomber dominance.
I mean, it's really hard to top a 6 Tridents Astral launching 24 Atropos and then teleporting the bombers back to safety to do it all over again.
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- All your combat ships must have a weapon mount capable of fitting a medium missile
- All your combat ships must fit pilum launchers in any mount that can accomodate them
Can you stand the crushing disappointment of sub-optimal play long enough to achieve critical mass?
Pilums/Pila did nothing wrong!
I really stopped using the SO and torp loadouts and have lately been focusing on regen missile builds (TBH, I think all missiles, should have reloading, since anything else encourages minmax cheese). Thankfully mods add many more regen missiles from DA's micromissiles to Sylphon's Exalts to Tempars' Clarents (miss those as Templar's are still 0.8 )
So yeah, with a full missile fleet, you feel like Xerxes, blotting out the sun with all you missiles. And watch fleets which thought they had good PD get obliterated.
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@ Null Ganymede:
I do not know what point when critical mass is reached. In older versions, Pilums spam wrecked fleets. Today, not so much, at least not without lots of missile spec officers. I do not know if officers will get the job done, but without them, I could not get the critical mass of bygone releases.
Just did a quick Pilum test, with three Dominators and five Falcon (P). Things I noticed...
Fleet as a whole needs to be built for Pilum spam.
At first, there are indeed clouds of Pilums, as all ships fire missiles, but it does not last for long. There may be too many to shoot down, but it does not matter if pilums are slow enough that enemy outruns them or blocks them.
Against a roughly equal sized enemy force or bigger, Pilum spam is mostly ineffective. It works better against fleets smaller than player's.
Without ECCM, Pilums are simply too slow. There may be too many to shoot down all of them, but the enemy has no trouble shooting some of them down and blocking or simply running away from the rest (they are already cowardly enough, don't want them to run away even more!) Pilums hardly scored any kills against enemy fleet. They did overwhelm singular targets like a lone battleship (but at that point, bring in lone Harbinger and torpedo it). ECCM helps a bit.
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ECCM and officers on the Pilum ships are underwhelming because Pilums are still slow. Try them on Salamanders, they get *way* harder to shoot down.
Try swapping the 5 Falcons for 3 Moras and 3 Wolves. Same point cost, but you now have slippery frigates that can carry Salamanders or draw attention on the flanks as needed. Broadswords and Claws on the Moras will increase Pilum hits. Most importantly your battle line is now ~3 cruisers wide, but 2 cruisers deep. This concentrates firepower even if you now gotta watch the flanks closely.
Edit: I tried this a bit, and didn't like Pilum dominators enough. The hull shines in an assault role and Pilums are too back-line. Typhoon Reaper launchers improve TTK too much to replace. Dropping a Dominator for more frigates and destroyers with Salamanders improves the fleet. Replacing ships with Condors reaches peak Salamander spam, but Condors aren't "cool". :)
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Makes me sad for the Pilums. :-\ Not sure how to buff them though.
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10598.0
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I don't think speed is the issue. Actually I'm more leaning towards keeping them as slow as they are, but giving them a massive health pool. Basically a brick wall that you have to dodge. Or that will distract PDs for some time.
Or maybe switch them to Kinetic, since right now you can just soak them up with shields, even with ships like a Sunder who has bad shield efficiency.
And I also think that the skill that boosts damage done to missiles and fighters by 50% is overtuned, but maybe it's just me.
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Pilums had high health until recent releases. Now, they are so slow and flimsy that even Mining Lasers can shoot them down. Alex rebalanced Pilums by lowering OP cost from 10 to 7. Like pre-0.8 Thumper, no weapon is better than Pilums. High health Pilums meant either you used ships with flak or you shield tank them. Beams would be underpowered.
I used the ships I did because they were at hand for a quick test. I just reconfigured them from simple assault (e.g., Falcon (P)s were built for Annihilator spam) to Pilum spam. I had no frigates (aside from Tempest and some civilians) because I deem them obsolete at endgame due to lack of peak performance.
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I don't think speed is the issue.
Pilums are broken (which is not the same as OP). They are broken because they can snowball into an invincible ball of death. Instead of addressing this problem, Alex has simply nerfed them into uselessness.
Zibywan (the guy who came up with the stats I packaged into that mod) solved this by giving Pilums terrible maneuverability. The Pilums can't help but spread out (helped along by high speed), making it impossible for them to clump up. No snowball of doom means Pilums can then be balanced normally.
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I've taken Serenitis' tactics to heart and started a combo space hobo/auto-loading missile run (with rebalanced pilums of course), and it's surprisingly effective! My Venture flagship can throw out a significant amount of missiles in a very short time, and while I only have a few ships with the proper missile mounts, I can already tell that achieving 'critical mass' isn't too far off.