Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: RawCode on January 04, 2019, 01:13:58 PM

Title: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: RawCode on January 04, 2019, 01:13:58 PM
Well, it will be very very useful to ban AI from using specific hulls (prometeus\atlas\other slow ships) and specific weapons\fighters.

Especially after you got blueprints for strictly superior hulls.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Sendrien on January 04, 2019, 02:42:31 PM
Absolutely. I second this.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Embolism on January 04, 2019, 08:46:54 PM
Yes. You shouldn't be penalised at any point for learning blueprints.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Tartiflette on January 05, 2019, 12:36:26 AM
You can do that the other way around. Make the relevant ships a priority and the fleets won't use the blueprints you don't want.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: RawCode on January 05, 2019, 03:55:44 AM
too much hasssle to priority everything expect ones you do not want.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Megas on January 05, 2019, 05:59:43 AM
You can do that the other way around. Make the relevant ships a priority and the fleets won't use the blueprints you don't want.
That does not work.  I can have Atlas and Prometheus not prioritized and my patrols insist on including them.  Also, I want my battlestaions to use Tachyon Lances, but even if Tachyon Lance is the only one that has priority, my stations still insist on Autopulse if I learned the high-tech pack, ignoring my priority settings.

Also, I agree with RawCode.  Too much hassle and too clunky to prioritize everything except what I do not want.

There needs to be a blocker or ban flag.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Grievous69 on January 05, 2019, 06:18:50 AM
I can't help but laugh when I see this, it's like the fourth time the same thing was suggested in a span of 2 months, even less. A bunch of people come and say they agree, then one guy or Alex says: ''Hey you can do this extremely counterintuitive thing to achieve the same result.'', which in reality is just plain wrong. And then the thread dies and another one is reborn from its ashes.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Megas on January 05, 2019, 06:25:07 AM
If priority alone is such a good idea, remove the frequency modifier of zero away from Gremlin for Tri-Tachyon and see what happens.

If they can ban ships, I want to as well.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Clockwork Owl on January 05, 2019, 06:24:15 PM
Then there's the edge case of banning every hulls belonging to a role and there's no fallback anymore...

Yes I do believe more... elegant solution is needed. No I don't think current one is counterintuitive.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Baxter on January 05, 2019, 07:54:24 PM
You can just put in a rule that if every available hull/weapon for a role or slot is banned the game just defaults to its normal picking rules, as if you'd set no priorities.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: RawCode on January 05, 2019, 10:26:16 PM
just allow banning without any restrictions, if player ban everything expect hounds, he will have hound only patrols, simple as that.

probably i will make mod about this for 91a, sadly, such modification do require excess amount of work or altering core classes.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Deshara on January 06, 2019, 10:28:12 AM
you actually can't inverse-ban blueprints if it's the only blueprints that fits a niche that the AI considers mandatory. Only capital ship you've got is a civilian capital ship? Say hello to your new civilian-only patrol fleets
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Morgan Rue on January 06, 2019, 10:38:32 AM
Do note that patrols want to use some freighters and tankers, so you do need to have at least one freighter and tanker prioritized.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Megas on January 06, 2019, 10:41:32 AM
you actually can't inverse-ban blueprints if it's the only blueprints that fits a niche that the AI considers mandatory. Only capital ship you've got is a civilian capital ship? Say hello to your new civilian-only patrol fleets
This is why we need a ban feature that effectively forgets a blueprint.  As posted above, if player bans everything to try to break the game, then ignore it.  Otherwise, honor it and do not use that ship (because we pretend we do not have the blueprint for it) and use only those that are not banned.  Tri-Tachyon bans Gremlins from their fleets (with frequency modifier of zero).
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Ithiloneth on December 04, 2020, 02:53:53 PM
@Megas mentioned that Tri-Tach ban gremlins from their fleets.
Since I do not want Gremlins being fed after midnight by accident, i opened my save file and banned them from my faction use the script snippet from Tri-Tach's faction management.
This is the snippet you want:
Code
<e>
<st>gremlin</st>
<fp>0.0</fp>
</e>

Insert it inside the hullFrequency parameter like this:
Code
<hullFrequency cl="l-h-m" z="1788">
<e>
<st>gremlin</st>
<fp>0.0</fp>
</e>
</hullFrequency>

Hope this helps someone!
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Morrokain on December 04, 2020, 05:25:39 PM
Then there's the edge case of banning every hulls belonging to a role and there's no fallback anymore...

Definitely a valid edge case. But what if the logic just checked the Frequency array/map/w.e for non-zero values and kept an active count in memory per each ship role? That way whenever the "disable" button is pressed it can assess whether this would violate the "count must be greater than 0" rule and deny the hull from being disabled if so? Unless the iterations would cause noticeable lag between click and action that could work.

*Player presses disable on the hull*

Pseudo code:

Object emptyRole = noRolesEmpty(hullId);
if (frequencyMap.get(hullId) != 0 && emptyRole.validateNoEmptyRoles() {
          allowHullDisabled(hullId);
} else if (frequencyMap.get(hullId) == 0) {
          displayMessageHullAlreadyDisabled(hullId);
} else {
          displayMessageEmptyRoleViolation(emptyRole.getEmptyRoleString());
}

Of course, that would mean more UI work and eventually there would be some desire for role status to be explicitly shown in the UI so the player can keep track of how many potential hulls are in each particular role.


Alternatively, an intel report could be generated only if a role is empty and a fleet would have otherwise spawned one but doesn't have a fallback. That would probably be easier to do with the existing code base since intel reports are already a thing and the additional logic would just have to check that the role in question has a non-zero value in the map during fleet creation or it spawns a report for that role.

The way to remove the report would be to activate a hull in the corresponding role. To prevent UI work to show role-hull candidacy in the management screen, the report could list all the available hulls for the empty role so the player knows what their options are.

To prevent spam, reports aren't duplicated. As long as a report exists for that role, no new reports are generated until the player resolves the first one by enabling a valid hull.

Idk, just some random brainstorming. I agree that more player faction fleet management would be really nice.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Scorpixel on December 04, 2020, 06:43:07 PM
As a player who want to rely on faction fleets more during battle this would be the most desired option.
Not even asking for ship/fleet templates, just this option would help to keep production clearer.
For the window to list what roles each ship can fill so that it can be known which combat hauler or battlecarrier count as what would be desirable.

Guess more personalised options would be considered too strong in the hands of the player, however such an option may hopefully be available in the future, meaning i'll finally be able to fulfil my dream of Xyphos only battlecarriers and full ion/pd artillery overtaking the sector by having the enemy die of old age.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Megas on December 05, 2020, 07:22:13 AM
As a player who want to rely on faction fleets more during battle this would be the most desired option.
Not even asking for ship/fleet templates, just this option would help to keep production clearer.
For the window to list what roles each ship can fill so that it can be known which combat hauler or battlecarrier count as what would be desirable.

Guess more personalised options would be considered too strong in the hands of the player, however such an option may hopefully be available in the future, meaning i'll finally be able to fulfil my dream of Xyphos only battlecarriers and full ion/pd artillery overtaking the sector by having the enemy die of old age.
This is for your NPC fleets, against other NPC fleets.  Those fights are usually auto-resolved and loadout does not matter too much.

Player can sort of know what roles the ships are by using the filters, and knowing what ships fleets tend to use.  It gets problematic for few ships that qualify for multiple roles, like Gemini.  (Gemini qualifies as freighter and carrier.  I would like Gemini as a freighter, but I do not want my war fleets to use Gemini.)

The current priority system is usable, but hideously arcane and user-unfriendly.  A blacklist or ban flag would be useful.

Also, it would be nice if priorities can be separated between battlestations and ships.  (Outfitting a battlestation like a ship would be even better, but that is wishful thinking.)  There are weapons I want on the battlestation that I would not want on ships.  Thus, I set weapon priorities to what I want my battlestations to use because I rely on battlestations in a fight more often than random patrol fleet #N.  However, it is nice to loot free weapons from your dead fleets that bravely fought off enemy raids.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Scorpixel on December 05, 2020, 08:37:54 AM
Player can sort of know what roles the ships are by using the filters, and knowing what ships fleets tend to use.  It gets problematic for few ships that qualify for multiple roles, like Gemini.  (Gemini qualifies as freighter and carrier.  I would like Gemini as a freighter, but I do not want my war fleets to use Gemini.)

The current priority system is usable, but hideously arcane and user-unfriendly.  A blacklist or ban flag would be useful.

Also, it would be nice if priorities can be separated between battlestations and ships.  (Outfitting a battlestation like a ship would be even better, but that is wishful thinking.)  There are weapons I want on the battlestation that I would not want on ships.  Thus, I set weapon priorities to what I want my battlestations to use because I rely on battlestations in a fight more often than random patrol fleet #N.  However, it is nice to loot free weapons from your dead fleets that bravely fought off enemy raids.
Agreeing with all of your points.
It is true that faction fleets aren't exactly useful, which is why my wish is to have more global control on them, be it customisation or strategic orders, maybe even a defence budget to compensate the greater utility.

It is more of an issue of either this is considered as too much 4X oriented rather than M&B-like rpg that the dev team strive to reach. It's unsettling that SC is promising better in both domains than dedicated titles from established licenses. Don't know if it says more about the team's dedication or the stale situation in those two niches.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Twilight Sentinel on December 13, 2020, 10:08:38 AM
Better organization on the doctrine screen would help with avoiding issues like disabling all ships of a given role.  Since obviously the spawned fleets need certain groups of ships to fill given roles, showing those groups to the player in some way and telling them that a minimum of one ship from each group must be available for their settings to have any effect would avoid that problem.
Title: Re: Ban flag for weapons,hulls and fighters for fleet doctrine
Post by: Helldiver on January 14, 2021, 03:38:28 AM
Better organization on the doctrine screen would help with avoiding issues like disabling all ships of a given role.  Since obviously the spawned fleets need certain groups of ships to fill given roles, showing those groups to the player in some way and telling them that a minimum of one ship from each group must be available for their settings to have any effect would avoid that problem.

More info and options for doctrine would be fantastic, it pretty barebones right now.