Fractal Softworks Forum
Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: goduranus on December 04, 2018, 03:17:01 AM
-
The blog post says that these are a bit unfair, but they are more unfair than that. Most phase ships punch far above their weight class, with the torpedo Harbinger in particular, no foe is to be feared.
Battleship? Boom
Star Fortress? Boom
Bounty target? Boom
I think it's transformed the entire game into "find a phase ship and win", and the only reason to not use them would be to deliberately play a handicapped game. Imo there should be bigger downsides to using them, like with the Hyperion.
Although, if the AI can be programmed to execute perfect Disrupter-Reaper strikes that would be pretty cool too ;D
-
Can you link to blog post?
-
I think it's transformed the entire game into "find a phase ship and win", and the only reason to not use them would be to deliberately play a handicapped game. Imo there should be bigger downsides to using them, like with the Hyperion.
In fairness, "find x and win" applies to many different things in the game. No one is handicapped by having a couple Onslaughts or a Paragon in tow, or by having unlimited money and rare ship production through the colony system. There are many ways to make the game challenge trivial. Phase ships are just one.
-
Can you link to blog post?
http://fractalsoftworks.com/2018/03/25/minefields/
The idea behind phase ship design, and in particular their active systems, is that they should feel a bit unfair, but still be counterable in some way. Phase ships should feel dangerous, but they should not auto-win.
But onslaughts and paragons are slow, and consume a lot more supplies, and are vulnerable to being outnumbered. Whereas the AI basically has no way to counter player controlled phase ships.
-
But onslaughts and paragons are slow, and consume a lot more supplies, and are vulnerable to being outnumbered. Whereas the AI basically has no way to counter player controlled phase ships.
I'm not arguing that. Just saying that to assert that someone is handicapped by not using them is silly. Game is not yet complete or close to balanced. Economy is bonkers, and there are many different "I win" buttons.
Personally, I dont enjoy using phase ships, so you're welcome to them.
-
I think the Doom is mostly OK, it's 35 DP and the firepower it brings for that isn't too high.
Mine strike is a very nice special that adds an entirely new playstyle.
Agreed on Afflictor/Harbinger, they also got good abilities(that would IMO make them very strong even without weapons) but also got to keep their high strike power.
Harbinger is where everything is cranked up to 11, 3x10 reapers that are virtually guaranteed to hit hull are just over the top.
My favorite touch is disruption gimping energy weapons, like anybody in their right minds would use anything but reapers in the synergies :)
I'd guess they are intentionally overbuffed to get people familiar with the new systems.
The playstyle is fun, just a bit cheap and delicate machinery is nowhere near enough to make up for it.
-
Hyperion is comparable to Afflictor in terms of overall threat (maybe somewhat inferior, but still close), when piloted correctly (though doing so is harder, since you don't have slomo).
It's not just AI being stupid - Harbinger (assuming it's piloted competently) is pretty much uncounterable for most ships.
Against Reaper Harbinger, faster ships can dodge (since QD doesn't disable engines), but that's about it. Can't rely on shields/phase cloak or even ship systems - QD interrupts phase skimmer/teleport. Against Blaster Harbinger, even small ships can't do anything.
(also competent) Hyperion or Afflictor could probably hunt it down or at least neutralize (making any Harbinger attack on 3rd ship suicidal), but that's about it. QD is very good protection against either, so it wouldn't be easy.
Afflictor is uncounterable for frigates (except Hyperion/Afflictor). Entropy Amplifier + 3-4 AM blasters on skilled character kill them right through shield. Or first salvo overloads and second kills, after only 4 seconds (2 phase cooldown + 2 spent in phase (8 from reference frame of Afflictor with defensive systems 3)).
Larger ships with accelerated or 360 shields have potential ways to handle it (that AI doesn't use).
Doom is fine - it's too slow to get much offensive benefit from phase (other than utility for mines).
Afflictor is immensely fun, so I wouldn't want it nerfed into the ground. But Harbinger QD+Reaper spam is a bit too good, considering how easy it is.
-
While Harbinger fights dirty, it is finally worth the 20 DP as a playership. Not sure as AI, but I do not fear it as much as 0.8 QD Afflictor because it is bigger, slower, and more expensive. Also, it seems QD does not stun as long, so you need to nail down the timing to land shots. If QD gets taken away, I want to see a similarly overpowered system to replace it, or see Harbinger DP cost plummet. If I have any complaint about Harbinger, it is that the Reaper loadout dominates the rest. No other loadout is nearly as effective in player hands.
Without invulnerability frames (combined with faster AI reaction), Afflictor and Shade seems like a war of attrition against enemy ships (I decloak and do damage, then take damage back from enemy), and too hard to kill larger ships with AM blasters without the explosion killing my phase frigate.
Doom is good, and it better be for the DP cost. 5 below Onslaught/Conquest? Doom had better be a bit unfair or at least punch about as hard as a capital. I also like that the AI can use Doom well enough. Wish I can say the same for the others.
-
Not sure as AI, but I do not fear it as much as 0.8 QD Afflictor because it is bigger, slower, and more expensive.
I'm not saying that Harbinger is particularly dangerous piloted by current AI. But it could be with competent piloting.
too hard to kill larger ships with AM blasters without the explosion killing my phase frigate.
It's tricky, but something you can master. And gets easier with character skills.
And even if you avoid finishing omni-shielded capitals/cruiser (just leave them crippled), there are usually many other less risky targets.
-
Harbinger is still particularly dangerous when piloted by the AI because well... it can shut down your shields and guns and a lot of the time it will do that when you’re surrounded. Enemy phase ships are consistently the most dangerous ships in he game
-
Being really strong isn't the Harbinger's problem, being boring is.
As Megas said, the reaper boat loadout is just so overwhelmingly better than the rest. With expanded missile racks, that's potentially 10 destroyed enemy ships from the get go in any battle. I single handedly stopped raids and took down battle stations with the simple QD/Torpedo combo, and it is not only fast, it's also easy to do. As someone said on the discord at some point, once you get a Harbinger, the game change from a challenge to a grind. You repeat the same routine of assassinating the flagship over and over again, all with little risk.
Of course, i could try something else. A Blaster/Phase lance/Ion pulser variant isn't bad at all, but is lightyears below a reaper build when it comes to burst damage, and if you're planning to use this loadout for prolonged engagements, delicate machinery and time dilatation will wreck your CR, limiting your influence on the battlefield.
Quantum Disruptor is the problem. It wasn't that bad with the Afflictor thanks to the very limited ammo from small reaper launchers. Fielding an assassin Afflictor was viable, but risky when you can screw up your single (two) chances. But with the Harbinger? A bit too easy, and it get boring quick.
-
Quantum Disruptor is the problem [because it makes Harbinger boring].
I disagree. QD is simply exacerbating the existing problem that phase ships are boring. Even the Shade (player-piloted, of course) can usually take down a cap or two and a couple cruisers by itself at the beginning of a battle. You just "repeat the same routine of assassinating the flagship over and over again, all with little risk".
And if you mess up and lose your Shade/Afflictor? Who cares, it's a frigate. You can recover it or just get another one. Harbinger is a little rarer, but same difference.
-
I agree that phase ships are quite boring to play with - I had a fun time abusing them for the middle of one playthrough, but thats about it. It takes forever in real time to get anywhere phased (because you don't get the +50 speed boost) and with everything else 'on pause' you just kind drift along. Even once you get to the target, its usually the same old maneuver.
-
with everything else 'on pause' you just kind drift along
This is the main thing I dislike about piloting phase ships, the time dilation is an interesting mechanic but drags out fleet battles a lot.
-
Quantum Disruptor is the problem. It wasn't that bad with the Afflictor thanks to the very limited ammo from small reaper launchers. Fielding an assassin Afflictor was viable, but risky when you can screw up your single (two) chances. But with the Harbinger? A bit too easy, and it get boring quick.
No, 0.8 QD Afflictor with invulnerability frames and possibly longer QD stun was at least as bad in a different way. No ship fast enough to deal with it can hard-counter it. (That is, Afflictor can counter any of its counters.) It can fire up to eight Reapers (or use AM Blasters instead and kill anything thanks to invulnerability frames). It may not have quite as much ammo as Harbinger, but it can still wreck things. You just brought more and chained them if you had them.
Doom is fun to pilot. I give it a brawler loadout to pin enemies while mines do the work. I like bringing Doom along because either the AI or I can use it well enough. Harbinger is nice as a trump card, but I would not give it to the AI. The frigates are not much help, and I have better things to pilot.
Reaper Harbinger is a bit disgusting (but my kind of disgusting), but I do not bore of it. I only lament that other loadouts are nowhere near as powerful.
-
I think the problem with phase ships is that they are not countered as much as they are built against. So you're getting a lot of 360° shielded ships and fighters.
There is no in-combat strategy to counter phase ships besides ordering your fighters to swarm it and hang around until it runs out of steam and decloaks. Good luck doing this with a player-controllable ship. Well, it happens occasionally that you're in weapons range when the AI reaches high flux, but you could almost say that's on the AI. Since if we assume perfect phase AI, you'd practically not see them get touched at all.
In your experience, has this gotten better with the phase changes? I think the time shift made them more annoying if anything, although the forced delay is definitely a good thing.
That ships piloted by the player are stronger than AI ships is not really unique to phase ships. 3x reaper launcher with expanded racks and missile skill is a deadly combo, but that stems from a combination of factors. Weapons layout, the power of burst damage, phase for safe maneuvering and finding shield gaps, a good ship system. We could make a similar thread and title it "Nerf reapers!"
-
The thing I miss with old cloak is I can no longer use Shade as a ghost tank (it tanked better than Monitor) and Afflictor as a evasion brawler (it played much like a super Lasher with cloak flickering instead of a shield).
-
Probably the easiest way to weaken Harbinger is change one or two of the synergies into energy (and change the remaining synergies into universal for some possible ballistic action to kind of make up for lost power).
-
The tach lance is in my experience the most reliable phase ship counter. The AI does not pay attention to ships it is not targeting so ships with a tach lance can often cripple a phase ship during the delay before re-phasing. Especially a paragon with 4x TL can one shot the frigates reliably. I agree the best way to reduce the power of a missile based loadout is to change the slots to non-missiles.
-
Probably the easiest way to weaken Harbinger is change one or two of the synergies into energy (and change the remaining synergies into universal for some possible ballistic action to kind of make up for lost power).
This would make Harbinger a lot weaker, but QD still doesn't give victims much counter-play (except have more armor).
-
Without Reapers, Quantum Disruptor dropping shields for a very short window akin to a parry or reversal move in fighting game is much less devastating without an assist. Harbinger costs 20 DP, and it should be at least as good as two destroyers put together.
Maybe changing from synergy to energy is not a great idea, since that lets Harbinger use AM blasters. Change some of the synergies to hybrid.
-
IMO QD is a bad system and simply shouldn't exist, mainly because of how the AI uses it: it's either greatly misusing it (how it is now) or a completely uncounterable "you die" type enemy. In the hands of the player well we all know how it goes.
In fact I don't like how most Phase systems work (Amplifier, Disruptor and the old Interdictor) because they're "target and cast" abilities. I'd much prefer if, say, Disruptor fires a bolt of energy and Amplifier has a cast time and AoE that enemies can move out of before it procs.
-
IMO QD is a bad system and simply shouldn't exist, mainly because of how the AI uses it: it's either greatly misusing it (how it is now) or a completely uncounterable "you die" type enemy. In the hands of the player well we all know how it goes.
AI not knowing how to play the same game as the player is also something frequently ragged on by critics, if we're worried about the commercial health of the game at wide release. Not that your average critic these days even pretends to play a game more than a couple days before writing a review--I doubt any of them would even tip to this point.
Still, this is the reason I don't like them (phase ships). It just feels like Im suddenly playing a different game than the one the AI knows how to play.
-
Still, this is the reason I don't like them (phase ships). It just feels like Im suddenly playing a different game than the one the AI knows how to play.
AI was always unable to pilot Hyperion, long before phase cloak introduction. But as a single ship it's less noticeable than whole class of ships.
Countering Afflictor is theoretically possible (with suitably beef and 360 or accelerated omni shield). But it's not simple and AI isn't good at it. Though it got better at judging whether to rotate or re-deploy shield in 0.9 .
Countering QD is simply not possible outside of super-mobility (not letting Harbinger come close in the first place - only Hyperion and phase frigates are fast enough) or dodging Reapers (only some frigates are fast enough and Harbinger may use un-dodge-able Heavy Blasters too).
-
The AI could be taught a few things on better using Quantum Disruptor ("go ahead and fire strike weapons even if shielded, we can induce an overload on demand"). But for the player side, it may be that there's just no way to balance being able to have a forced overload shipsystem and any nonzero number of 4000 damage (multiuse!) strike weapons on the same ship.
Making the QD platform and the torpedo platform separate as Megas suggests will probably be adequate. A bunch of ships will still find HB/AMB fire unpleasant if we allow those, but most frigates can at least dodge or run and if destroyers get eaten 1v1 that's probably justified by Harbie's deployment cost.
My alternative bad idea: Replace QD with Doom's old Interdictor Array, but buffed to guarantee a flameout. My experience with a mod version of this (Shadowyards' REIS) suggests it's hugely annoying for the target* but doesn't have the same instakill potential as QD; even if surrounded the target can still fight back and use its shields, and even a frigate could in principle drift away to safety.
*Although since I've mostly experienced the system as the user rather than the target, I can't say I've internalized just how annoying it is
-
A bunch of ships will still find HB/AMB fire unpleasant if we allow those, but most frigates can at least dodge or run and if destroyers get eaten 1v1 that's probably justified by Harbie's deployment cost.
Character-skilled UI Harbinger has >400 normal space speed while phased. Only phase frigates and Hyperion can outrun it.
Though this may still be acceptable - keep formation or big bad space wolf will eat you.
-
Quantum Disruptor is the problem. It wasn't that bad with the Afflictor thanks to the very limited ammo from small reaper launchers. Fielding an assassin Afflictor was viable, but risky when you can screw up your single (two) chances. But with the Harbinger? A bit too easy, and it get boring quick.
Probably the easiest way to weaken Harbinger is change one or two of the synergies into energy (and change the remaining synergies into universal for some possible ballistic action to kind of make up for lost power).
Its system is so nice I'd like to see it emphasized a bit more, something like giving it a single synergy and removing the energy weapon penalty.
Then you get phase lance, reaper or heavy blaster and focus more on the battle in general(disrupting targets of bomber strikes/ships with high arc front shields and in a bad position).
I like that style much better, you react and contribute some firepower instead of doing a bunch of uncounterable 1v1s.
Current solo playstyle can also work, the firepower is just too high if that's what Alex is going for.
This would make Harbinger a lot weaker, but QD still doesn't give victims much counter-play (except have more armor).
QD would be infuriating in a MP game, but I think could work here pretty well if it wasn't QD + 3x 4-5K HE damage in practice.
It's an interesting(maybe a bit too strong) tool for the player that the AI won't be able to use properly.
If you think it's too strong it could be tinkered with, maybe:
- duration is 3-0s if the target has 0-5000 free flux capacity
- does 0-2000 hard flux damage if the target has 0-5000 free flux capacity
Numbers are an asspull and probably way off, just an idea(I do like the current system though).
-
Character-skilled UI Harbinger has >400 normal space speed while phased
Safety Override ;D
-
I think it's transformed the entire game into "find a phase ship and win", and the only reason to not use them would be to deliberately play a handicapped game. Imo there should be bigger downsides to using them, like with the Hyperion.
In fairness, "find x and win" applies to many different things in the game. No one is handicapped by having a couple Onslaughts or a Paragon in tow, or by having unlimited money and rare ship production through the colony system. There are many ways to make the game challenge trivial. Phase ships are just one.
I'd like to apologize to the OP for this. Because of my general disdain for phase ships I hadn't played with the new QD version. Just tried that out and it is utter horseshit. I couldnt get that thing out of my fleet fast enough, and even knowing it's available negatively impacts the game for me, because everything else is clearly suboptimal.
So I was wrong. You were right.
-
I have no problem with Quantum Disruptor alone. (It is like a fighting game move.) Combined with Reapers (and possibly AM Blasters) makes it too effective (for some people). If I did not nail the timing required to land Reapers, I would have thought Quantum Disruptor to be a joke (very short stun window), and triple Mining Blaster is not that impressive when two AM Blasters from Afflictor can do more, and triple Harpoon pod runs out of ammo too fast (even with six shots). Harbinger without the Quantum Disruptor and Reaper combo would have been too overpriced at 20 DP.
I do not use Safety Override on Harbinger. Harbinger's peak performance is already short enough without it.
P.S. Until black hole (pirate and pather) bases are gone, I do not want to see Reaper Harbinger removed because we need something to destroy things fast before Event Horizon kills everyone other than the enemy battlestation.
-
Character-skilled UI Harbinger has >400 normal space speed while phased
Safety Override ;D
It's faster than SO Tempest, so SO won't help the victim to run.
If you meant SO on Harbinger - there is no need to. Peak time is more important than some extra speed, which still won't be enough to catch a Hyperion or Afflictor.
-
My own drastic suggestion would be (said this before) to completely remove or drastically reduce the time acceleration effect and change the overpowered ship systems on Afflictor and Harbinger into something more reasonable. That leaves torpedo Harbinger dangerous but evade-able, or at least player and AI get a bit of time to maneuver.
-
Out of all of the phase ships, only Doom is one the AI can use well. The others, either they run out of peak performance too fast (frigates phase too much in combat) or are just plain incompetent, making them playerships only, and aside from Reaper Harbinger sometimes, I have better things to pilot.
-
QD is just the broken ass cherry on top of the phase ship cheese sundae. The fact that phase shields infallibly negate *all* damage, no matter how many ships are firing at you and let you actually fly *through* ships for effortless flanking already make me feel like Im playing some other game than all the other ships on the field are playing. But I acknowledge some players like this, so it's usually enough for me just to pretend they(the ships) arent a part of the game.
This though...even if they reduced the armament, it would only prolong the inevitable. Being able to stun any ship at will is thoroughly broken, and it does indeed make me feel like a chump while playing the game the AI knows how to play--dropping shields, flux management, hit and fade, anti shield and anti armor weapons, etc. And thank god the AI *doesnt* know how to use this, or it would be intolerable.
No sir. This thing needs to be killed with fire.
-
I find new phase cloak an annoyance to use because if the phase ship needs to fight fair, then it trades damage then eventually dies from accumulated damage. They would be like glorified Hounds. Old phase cloak was better for brawling (more viable loadouts), but felt like an inferior Fortress Shield. New phase cloak does enable unconventional fighting, even if it feels unfair. At their elevated costs, they better be unfair, or else I am better off with a brick like a (D) mod ridden Dominator.
-
Not to the extent of destroying 2 Onslaughts by itself though
-
I wonder that if quantum disruptor stopped venting, would AI be quick enough to raise shields before the reapers hit?
-
How about removing the forward weapons on the Harbringer entirely? QD *becomes* your weapon. Then it becomes a specialty support ship whose job is to stay alive and disrupt high value targets for opportunistic strikes by fighters and the rest of fleet.
Fragile but tricksy, classic control mage. Still novel playstyle. Rewards use of command interface.
-
How about removing the forward weapons on the Harbringer entirely? QD *becomes* your weapon. Then it becomes a specialty support ship whose job is to stay alive and disrupt high value targets for opportunistic strikes by fighters and the rest of fleet.
Fragile but tricksy, classic control mage. Still novel playstyle. Rewards use of command interface.
I probably would give it to the AI, if its cost plummets to about that of a conventional frigate. Otherwise, I would not bother. I do not like Omen because it is a pure support ship. Best support is more firepower to kill things dead faster in any situation.
-
How about removing the forward weapons on the Harbringer entirely? QD *becomes* your weapon. Then it becomes a specialty support ship whose job is to stay alive and disrupt high value targets for opportunistic strikes by fighters and the rest of fleet.
Fragile but tricksy, classic control mage. Still novel playstyle. Rewards use of command interface.
Think that would be a little bit boring for the player to pilot.
I actually think just changing the three mounts to ballistic or energy only would be enough. A heavy blaster Harbringer is still good, but requires far more thought and skill to use. When you unload 1-2 salvos of blasters on your enemy, you build up a lot of flux that then shortens the amount of time you have to fly yourself out of danger while phased.
-
How about removing the forward weapons on the Harbringer entirely? QD *becomes* your weapon. Then it becomes a specialty support ship whose job is to stay alive and disrupt high value targets for opportunistic strikes by fighters and the rest of fleet.
Fragile but tricksy, classic control mage. Still novel playstyle. Rewards use of command interface.
Think that would be a little bit boring for the player to pilot.
I actually think just changing the three mounts to ballistic or energy only would be enough. A heavy blaster Harbringer is still good, but requires far more thought and skill to use. When you unload 1-2 salvos of blasters on your enemy, you build up a lot of flux that then shortens the amount of time you have to fly yourself out of danger while phased.
You're probably right on the first point. QD would need to be much more of an active weapon requiring targeting, not just a "point in general direction and win" button.
I disagree on the second part. Nerfed weaponry only prolongs the inevitable, when the "fly through the ship, de phase, fire, repeat" cycle is nearly infallible. Then you're just relying on gimpy CR to be a limiting factor, and having to retreat a ship halfway through the battle just doesn't sound fun to me in any incarnation. Admittedly you're not doing it *for* me since I refuse to use phase ships in general, but its got to be something that doesn't make that choice feel so clearly inferior.
-
you build up a lot of flux that then shortens the amount of time you have to fly yourself out of danger while phased.
That's not how it works - you vent the soft flux faster than your hard flux rises, so there's no effect on your phase time.
My own drastic suggestion would be (said this before) to completely remove or drastically reduce the time acceleration effect and change the overpowered ship systems on Afflictor and Harbinger into something more reasonable. That leaves torpedo Harbinger dangerous but evade-able, or at least player and AI get a bit of time to maneuver.
I would rather just make phased ships hittable for soft flux. Then they are close enough to normal ships that the AI can handle them (both as and against) and the player can't cheese them.
-
I would rather just make phased ships hittable for soft flux. Then they are close enough to normal ships that the AI can handle them (both as and against) and the player can't cheese them.
That's kind of interesting. Phase ship gets skill play to dodge stuff with small profile (less than shield) - and it can dodge quite a lot due to time dilation, AI gets what it is accustomized to - target that is not useless to shoot at. Though projectiles probably should not 'hit', but rather disturb cloak when they pass through (so that phase ships could not super-tank for others).
Of course base phase upkeep needs to be lower and we need a new stat - phase cloak efficiency (similar to shield efficiency). Phasing through enemies can be particularly expensive.
It way work differently than shields/armor with damage types too.
Then again, clips also seemed like a good idea on paper.
-
I disagree on the second part. Nerfed weaponry only prolongs the inevitable, when the "fly through the ship, de phase, fire, repeat" cycle is nearly infallible. Then you're just relying on gimpy CR to be a limiting factor, and having to retreat a ship halfway through the battle just doesn't sound fun to me in any incarnation. Admittedly you're not doing it *for* me since I refuse to use phase ships in general, but its got to be something that doesn't make that choice feel so clearly inferior.
Since peak performance is limited, a huge reduction of firepower is a big deal. Also, three blasters on Harbinger is less firepower than two AM blasters on Afflictor or Shade. I did not want Harbinger in 0.8 because the phase frigates had better firepower (and Afflictor had Quantum Disruptor instead). Of course, Quantum Disruptor is nice, but not enough on its own to pay 20 DP on Harbinger. If Reapers did not work, I would have thrown Harbinger into the garbage bin since AI cannot use it and I want to pilot the best (i.e., capital like Paragon).
Even with Reaper Harbinger, I only use it if I absolutely need Quantum Disruptor and Reapers to destroy a high-priority target or two immediately. Otherwise, I rather use Doom or a conventional capital. Reaper Harbinger plays similar to Hyperion in earlier versions (with dumber AI and stronger skills).
-
Though projectiles probably should not 'hit', but rather disturb cloak when they pass through (so that phase ships could not super-tank for others).
What about missiles and HE rounds and frag rounds and AoE? A few too many exceptions there, IMO. I like your idea, but, given phase ships' short peak time, I don't think phase-tanking would be particularly viable. Don't forget they would block friendly shots too.
Of course base phase upkeep needs to be lower and we need a new stat - phase cloak efficiency (similar to shield efficiency). Phasing through enemies can be particularly expensive.
It way work differently than shields/armor with damage types too.
Why would phase upkeep need to be lower? Efficiency should probably just be 1.0 across the board. I think phasing through ships should be the same as now, if it can be done. For damage types, just let it be the same as shields - no need to overcomplicate things - else make it all 1 to 1.
-
I do not use Safety Override on Harbinger. Harbinger's peak performance is already short enough without it.
You should try, the huge mobility boost is really nice, and the improved flux dissipation makes things easier during tricky situations where you have to cloak/de-cloak under fire. And it's not like you need that much peak performance to fire your 5 (10) shots into whatever you want dead then retreat.
I kinda like Histidine's suggestion about a stronger Interdictor Array. Although being stalked by an AI Harbinger that want to make your life miserable might get frustrating, especially if it's a guaranteed flameout.
I'm curious about that phase tanking idea too, like some kind of cloaked damper field.
-
I would rather just make phased ships hittable for soft flux. Then they are close enough to normal ships that the AI can handle them (both as and against) and the player can't cheese them.
That's kind of interesting. Phase ship gets skill play to dodge stuff with small profile (less than shield) - and it can dodge quite a lot due to time dilation, AI gets what it is accustomized to - target that is not useless to shoot at. Though projectiles probably should not 'hit', but rather disturb cloak when they pass through (so that phase ships could not super-tank for others).
I'd like to have both phase brawlers and phase assassins, similarly to how we have phase skimmers and phase teleporter.
-
You should try, the huge mobility boost is really nice, and the improved flux dissipation makes things easier during tricky situations where you have to cloak/de-cloak under fire. And it's not like you need that much peak performance to fire your 5 (10) shots into whatever you want dead then retreat.
I tried Safety Override, but I simply do not have the peak performance to stay in combat long enough. Thus, it is not a useful option. Sure, the mobility is nice, but lack of peak performance (and reduced range if I use blaster loadout) is a fatal weakness for something that costs 20 DP to use.
By the time I launch all three Reapers ten times, peak performance has about expired, and I already have Combat Endurance 1 for more peak performance. If I am forced to fight near a black hole, then I need to squeeze Hardened Subsystems somewhere (and remove capacitors and vents to do it).
-
I actually think that shortening the QD time was a mistake, but not for power reasons.
Firstly, it makes it harder for the AI to use effectively since you really have to tightly sync up the timing with attacks. And the AI has enough problems with phase ships as is.
Secondly, the short window heavily favors short burst patterns with reliable time-to-target. Patterns like unloading 3 Reapers at once, which was strong before and (in the right hands) minimally affected by the change. While at the same time, it leaved both energy loadouts and other missile loadouts severely hampered. Phase Lance barely gets a full burst out, Heavy Blaster only gets one shot in, and the Harpoon's flight patterns means they don't always land at once.
-
I would rather just make phased ships hittable for soft flux. Then they are close enough to normal ships that the AI can handle them (both as and against) and the player can't cheese them.
I had that thought, too. It's definitely worth a try, just to see how it plays.
-
They probably would die to enemy beam loadouts if they take soft flux (not unlike phase ships building up soft flux back in the day). Sometimes, my phase ships (flagship or AI) ghost through a lot of firepower. The only problem child is Harbinger, and only playership with triple Reapers. Doom is in a good spot. It feels good to use, and the AI can use it well. The frigates are a pain to use now that invulnerability frames are gone and AI seems to react quicker to decloaking ships.
-
The frigates are a pain to use now that invulnerability frames are gone and AI seems to react quicker to decloaking ships.
Conceptual nitpick: You meant to say de-phasing. Would love to see an actual stealth ship implementation, as cloaked ships are a far more prevalent Sci-fi archetype, and would presumably still be bound by the game's physics. In other words, cloak to de-aggro but still subject to indirect damage, and would have to fly *around* rather than shortcut *through* ships for opportunistic hit and fade strikes on engines and unshielded flanks. High value strike potential, but damage output limited by travel time.
Anyway, I'm sure it's probably something Alex considered at one point but decided it didn't work for some reason or another.
-
Just in case someone missed this: https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1070420035469017088
Conceptual nitpick: You meant to say de-phasing. Would love to see an actual stealth ship implementation, as cloaked ships are a far more prevalent Sci-fi archetype, and would presumably still be bound by the game's physics. In other words, cloak to de-aggro but still subject to indirect damage, and would have to fly *around* rather than shortcut *through* ships for opportunistic hit and fade strikes on engines and unshielded flanks. High value strike potential, but damage output limited by travel time.
Anyway, I'm sure it's probably something Alex considered at one point but decided it didn't work for some reason or another.
The reason probably being is it would be extremely annoying to fight against such a ship. Even if the AI couldn't use it well it's still not fun trying to kill something that's completely invisible.
-
Conceptual nitpick: You meant to say de-phasing. Would love to see an actual stealth ship implementation, as cloaked ships are a far more prevalent Sci-fi archetype, and would presumably still be bound by the game's physics. In other words, cloak to de-aggro but still subject to indirect damage, and would have to fly *around* rather than shortcut *through* ships for opportunistic hit and fade strikes on engines and unshielded flanks. High value strike potential, but damage output limited by travel time.
Anyway, I'm sure it's probably something Alex considered at one point but decided it didn't work for some reason or another.
The reason probably being is it would be extremely annoying to fight against such a ship. Even if the AI couldn't use it well it's still not fun trying to kill something that's completely invisible.
Obviously it would have to uncloak to fire, and would be unshielded and fragile. I dont see how it could possibly be any more annoying than fighting phase ship spam already is.
-
As far as I concerned, phasing and cloaking are interchangeable in Starsector and not worth arguing over semantics. It is called phase cloak, after all.
Alex thought about it. It is in one of the older pre-0.6 blog posts.
Phase cloak went through at least two major changes before we got the modern one either in 0.7.2 or 0.8.
-
As far as I concerned, phasing and cloaking are interchangeable in Starsector and not worth arguing over semantics. It is called phase cloak, after all.
That's why it's a nitpick. But everyone can still see the ships, they just cant hurt them. Hence not stealth.
Like you said though. Semantics.