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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Plushie God on December 01, 2018, 02:25:32 PM

Title: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Plushie God on December 01, 2018, 02:25:32 PM
So as the update drops, we'll all seek out and work with a "playstyle" for ourselves. As such, I have found my own during my time in 0.9.


I have found a playstyle for this particular run.
This was the fleet at the "end-game"

(https://i.imgur.com/jOzXhb6.png)

Yeah... quite flashy for a fleet, ain't it? I know I said High Tech, Best Tech but I guess it's "Tempests and Omens are the best"? Those who are accustomed to 0.8 would know the changes the Tempest has gone through. Question is, has it been changed for better, or for worse? A somewhat lengthy playthrough has given me some time to properly review it and here are my thoughts.


So, a rundown of the Tempest, the spotlight of the fleet.
(https://i.imgur.com/MUsFyQH.png)

It's fast, 180 speed. Only the Hound has the same base speed, whilst the Hound (A) sits at the top at 198. But in comparison to the Tempest, it's very weak. It may have more hull and armor but overall a Tempest is arguably more durable due to fact that it actually has a shield. (Let alone an efficient shield which is supported by a big flux pool) However, there are ships that are faster than these ships due to their systems. Such as the Scarab with it's temporal shell or phase frigates in general.

It also comes with 2 medium energy slots supported by High Energy Focus. Which gives the Tempest great firepower in a such a small package, making the ship itself deadly. Real nasty when used with the right weapons. More on that later.

Last but not least, Terminator drones...
These drones brought great frustration upon those who were unfortunate enough to face it back in 0.8. Exceptionally nimble and equipped with an Ion Pulser, it was notorious for keeping ships in a disabled state. However that drone is no more in 0.9, and it has changed.
(https://i.imgur.com/Aylwelz.png)

The Ion Pulser has been removed and been replaced with a PD laser. At first glance this change may seem underwhelming and a nerf. But it is so much more. I do not know the details of the Terminator Core hullmod, but one thing that it does is ignore decoy flares from broadswords and such. As to why this change is amazing, observe.
(https://i.imgur.com/xf8qHXJ.gif)

The PD lasers shoot over allies, giving them insane stacking potential. Previously the Tempest's system was active flares but it not as effective as several stacked Terminator drones. Flares don't kill fighters either, which the drones can do fairly well. Which is why I feel Tempest swarms are somewhat more effective than others due to the PD they bring.
Another key point is that they're still drones, which means you can vent while still being protected by PD which is an invaluable trait and should be taken advantage of if you get the chance.

Icing on the cake.

If you tried to play with a Tempest swarm in 0.8, you'll either fall to a death ball of missiles or fighters. Now? Maybe, but the chances of that happening have been slimmed down severely. Overall. I felt like the Tempest got buffed. You won't be missing that Ion Pulser, trust me.


Next up in the spotlight, the Omen.
(https://i.imgur.com/6O3VMHE.png)

The sidekick of the Tempest.
Base speed of 155, it can fairly catch up with the Tempest and won't fall too far behind to be an issue. You can always add in Unstable Injector if you so desire.

It's a fairly simple ship, 2 small energies, 1 small missile. Very nice flux pool and very efficient shield at 0.6. It can tank a few good hits with it's shield on before running back to vent it all away and come back for more.

It also comes with ECM which is always nice.

The highlight of this ship is the system, however. The EMP emitter. It zaps missiles, fighters and ships alike. Making it an amazing PD ship alongside the Tempest. It also comes with the added bonus of a very painful EMP package. Able to disable whole ships if done right. Consider this to be your Ion Pulser alternative.
(https://i.imgur.com/0QjZuTG.gif)

Honestly if you ask me, I think it needs to be tuned down significantly.

Then there's the Astral, Aurora and Doom. (which I didn't use much, or at all)
But i'll go through them later.


You're probably looking at the fleet and thinking that it's only possible to acquire this number of Omens and Tempests with heavy industry and their respective blueprints, right? Well, somewhat. I managed to get 15 Tempests and as many Omens before I found their blueprints. How, you may ask. There is a way to acquire these en-masse without blueprints.
(https://i.imgur.com/hcFWxYW.png)

As you can see here, not only Tri Tachyon markets spawn Tempests... Persean League markets as well. In this image I was lucky enough to get 2. Best part is that 90% of the Tempests I find in these markets come with only 1 Dmod.

(https://i.imgur.com/kztVe58.png)

The League markets are clustered in systems and are right next to one another. Allowing me to "system hop" and go check every League market for Tempests and Omens, Hybrasil is also nearby this chain of League systems which also houses 2 Tri Tachyon markets. Everytime I pass by this chain of systems, I always try to check the markets for Tempests and Omens. I can reliable get 1-3 Tempests after jumping through 3 systems.

Rinse and repeat and with patience, you'll have a fleet of Tempests and Omens in no time.


So, onto combat. Tempests have the speed to pick their fights. So use that to your advantage. Swarm frigates and burst them down, and go after the bigger ships such as destroyers after they're isolated. Once you nail the tatic down, you'll be able to kill fleets bigger than yours in no time. And fighter swarms are less effective against you the more Tempests you stack together for reasons stated earlier. So the bigger the swarm, the better.
(https://i.imgur.com/zn4NXkJ.png)

(Here's a video of the tatic at work.)
https://youtu.be/dQrun6LsOy8

However, you'll be having issues trying to kill bricks such as a Venture due to it's heavy armor.
(https://i.imgur.com/vWzuj2o.gif)

Now now, didn't say it was impossible, did I?  ;)

As you can see, with just a few Tempests and maybe bring an Omen to support. You can kill pirate fleets a lot bigger than you no freaking sweat, so if you see one early-game, do not hesitate to buy it. It may be pricey but it'll be worth it in the end. Good at hunting Derelicts too for the same reasons.


Then as I continued to play, I eventually got the blueprints and started to organise the fleet. (As seen in the first picture above)  It consisted of 5 squads.
Each squad consists of:
6 Tempests with varying variants
2 Omens

First is the Burst variant.
(https://i.imgur.com/jvDhejQ.png)

This is what I usually flag, 2 Phase Lances combined with HEF melts holes in armor pretty quick, which is it's primary role. It's pretty straight forward and simple. But I only have 1 of these per squad.

Second is the Attack variant.
(https://i.imgur.com/nlGl36Q.png)

2 Pulses. 600 range, good damage, fair efficiency, and deals hard flux. The balanced, all rounders of the squad. I have 2 of these in a squad. Missiles are a mix of Salamanders, Hammers and Reapers.

Third is the Heavy variant.
(https://i.imgur.com/gWJfuzL.png)

Heavy Blaster, not the most efficient thing out there but this thing can crack armor just as good and unlike the Phase Lances, deals hard flux. If you can't find any Heavy Blasters, Mining Blasters are a fair alternative, don't be afraid to use them, they get the job done either way. I have 2 of these in a squad.

Fourth is the Ion and Fast variant.
(https://i.imgur.com/I3fBhzM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/cxEz2PC.png)

Simple, the support of the squad. The Ion fills a more general support role, firing an Ion beam at range, disabling enemies. The Fast variant is more of an interceptor. Usually used for bullying and harassing retreating ships. Unstable Injector on a Tempest is no joke. I have one Ion variant in the first 3 squads, while I have one Fast variant in the last 2 squads.

And finally, the Omen.
(https://i.imgur.com/a5mmuF3.png)

Pretty simple build. PD lasers for even more PD, Salamander for support. Hardened Shields to make it even more survivable than it already is.
I sometimes swap out the Salamander and Hardened Shields and replace it with a Sabot rack and Expanded Missile Racks.


Then there's the Aurora, it follows the vanilla Balanced variant. Astral comes with 3 Longbows and Daggers.
Doom? As for how amazing it is, yeah, I'm aware. However, Doom mines and frigate swarms don't mix. HEH
So the Doom is just there to tag along and watch the show..


For commander skills... Coordinated Maneuvers, seriously. Don't neglect it.


Then finally.. Stations..
Honestly? We've gone through everything. Throw that fleet at a Low Tech or Midline Star Fortress and watch it crumble. I didn't even need support from the Doom, Astral or Aurora.

Then we get into the High Tech Star Fortress...
Ohhh how much I hated this thing. I can't kill it without the help from the Astral and Aurora.

Unlike the Low Tech and Midline station, the High Tech station comes with modules that actively places mines. Think Doom's system but at a ludicrous range. It likes to place mines in the middle of the swarm and there's no time to react. Taking out 1-3 frigates per explosion.
(https://i.imgur.com/KQkBrVH.gif)

And the use of Fortress Shields... It's on the 3 drones that circle it and the Citadel of the station, that head that pops out. Your ships will go after the drones whilst their Fortress Shield is on, while they get pelted by 3 Pulses.

There's also the fact that the shield and weapon modules are separate. So fluxing out the shield does not flux out the weapons platform.

Put all these together and you got yourself a chaotic battlefield with mines appearing left and right.

(https://i.imgur.com/3VGvDye.png)

I guess I still did it?  :-\


So, I guess High Tech, Best Tech?  ;)

Thanks for reading through this post!


Here's a video I made as well. (It contains spoilers so please do not share to those who are not interested in such things as I don't want to ruin a full SS experience for others.)
https://youtu.be/jBw32bjg2og

Enjoy!
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Snrasha on December 01, 2018, 02:33:40 PM
Followed your run on Discord, this thing has be a good moment to see for my part :)

I will probably begin to spam tempest and omen, now.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: CrashToDesktop on December 01, 2018, 02:44:17 PM
Aye, the Omen is probably my favorite ship to pilot in the entire game.  It's just too fun zapping everything to ash. :) I was fortunate enough to get my hands on an Omen blueprint early on in my first playthrough, and boy was it fun.  Never did get that Tempest blueprint, so I was stuck with a pair of Tempests that I'd found abandoned in TT territory and slapped Reinforced Bulkheads on them for the rest of their lives.

The tag-team of a Tempest and an Omen was a force to be reckoned with indeed!  Though I never spammed them to quite this extent, I always had 2 Omens and 2 Tempests on hand in my fleet.  Never did appreciate the power the Omen had before this update.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Vind on December 01, 2018, 03:10:03 PM
Would be nice to see horde of dooms vs this matchup. AI tempest cant avoid mines for life.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Thaago on December 01, 2018, 03:24:48 PM
[Edit] AAAAHHHH I just watched the video!!!! Godamn when you did the synched explosions and turning the ship limit up it was freaking awesome!!! Please make more!!!!!! <3

This is a really good post! I appreciate the pictures and detailed descriptions! Bravo!

Omens are hands down my favorite frigates and I agree, they are a bit overtuned at 5 deployment. May I suggest sticking an antimatter blaster on the front small? I've noticed that the AI will alternate between blasting with it and using its system: its a pretty perfect combination.

Tempests are certainly great ships too, and the best at hunting down pesky AI frigates. But... are they the equivalent of bigger ships in terms of deployment points and cost? Because...

For those 30 Tempest I can have 6 Onslaughts. Low tech best tech! Ooh rah!
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Megas on December 01, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
When I needed to build up rep with Tri-Tachyon (for blueprint raids later), I took a small fleet of five pristine Tempests to bounty hunt in Magec.  They could slaughter any single pirate fleet without breaking much of a sweat, and my character and officers did not have much skills either.  All five Tempests were armed with one Heavy Blaster, one Tactical Laser, and one Salamander.  The biggest problem was carrying loot, and I often recovered a Mule or few Hounds/Cerebus just so I can haul the loot to a station before scuttling the newly acquired clunkers.

New Tempest is very powerful.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
Are you relying on industry skills to make recycling frigates viable? Frigates are still frigates, and sooner or later the AI will get a lucky shot in with that many small targets.  If you're not even taking loses with frigate spam, then something is indeed out of balance.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Megas on December 01, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
Are you relying on industry skills to make recycling frigates viable? Frigates are still frigates, and sooner or later the AI will get a lucky shot in with that many small targets.  If you're not even taking loses with frigate spam, then something is indeed out of balance.
In my case, I had all of the blueprints and enough profit to build several Tempests and their weapons per month if I wanted, if I lost some.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: Megas on December 01, 2018, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
Are you relying on industry skills to make recycling frigates viable? Frigates are still frigates, and sooner or later the AI will get a lucky shot in with that many small targets.  If you're not even taking loses with frigate spam, then something is indeed out of balance.
In my case, I had all of the blueprints and enough profit to build several Tempests and their weapons per month if I wanted, if I lost some.

When you have the blueprints and income to produce ships at will, the game is essentially over anyway. Any fleet mix is fine when losses no longer matter. At that point you're destroying enemy fleets with money.

The OP said that this was a fleet he had constructed *before* being able to rely on colony production though, which is why I asked.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Kanil on December 01, 2018, 05:45:45 PM
Well, I mean, the time "before being able to rely on colony production" is pretty much just two bounties. You can win those with your starting whatevers, so casualties really aren't going to matter.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Kanil on December 01, 2018, 05:45:45 PM
Well, I mean, the time "before being able to rely on colony production" is pretty much just two bounties. You can win those with your starting whatevers, so casualties really aren't going to matter.

And the blueprints which the OP said they didn't have at first. Hence the question. (setting aside the problems you will create for yourself by starting heavy industry that early)

Again, once you can produce ships at will and aren't limited by money in any meaningful fashion, what is the point of discussing novel fleet mixes? Anything works because losses/ship scarcity dont/doesn't matter.  If the OP contends that he isnt taking any losses though with a fragile ship size that isn't intended to survive prolonged engagements against larger ships, then yeah, something is out of tune.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Plushie God on December 01, 2018, 11:11:44 PM
Quote from: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:57:27 PM
Quote from: Kanil on December 01, 2018, 05:45:45 PM
Well, I mean, the time "before being able to rely on colony production" is pretty much just two bounties. You can win those with your starting whatevers, so casualties really aren't going to matter.

And the blueprints which the OP said they didn't have at first. Hence the question. (setting aside the problems you will create for yourself by starting heavy industry that early)

Again, once you can produce ships at will and aren't limited by money in any meaningful fashion, what is the point of discussing novel fleet mixes? Anything works because losses/ship scarcity dont/doesn't matter.  If the OP contends that he isnt taking any losses though with a fragile ship size that isn't intended to survive prolonged engagements against larger ships, then yeah, something is out of tune.
Quote from: StarGibbon on December 01, 2018, 05:13:50 PM
Are you relying on industry skills to make recycling frigates viable? Frigates are still frigates, and sooner or later the AI will get a lucky shot in with that many small targets.  If you're not even taking loses with frigate spam, then something is indeed out of balance.

I tend not to be too ambitious and not fight enemies that overpower me by a big margin as to keep losses to a minimum, but I do lose frigates in big fights, yeah. The strategy is effective but not perfect nor invincible. Fortunately disabled Tempests and Omens generally have a 70% recovery rate even without the skill. I guess I'm very lucky on that aspect, yay RNG.  ;)

As for the lost Tempests and Omens. Quickly replaced with the market/system hopping strategy I mentioned in the main post. You can quickly gain Tempests and Omens with the strategy, even without blueprints. At least in my experience.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Grievous69 on December 02, 2018, 01:26:07 AM
Man, you perfectly combined two things I really love, a true masterpiece indeed. Editing was also on point, great job mate.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: SCC on January 27, 2019, 09:53:02 AM
I've had some success with soloing when using the Tempest. So far, I can destroy all other frigates, most destroyers and some cruisers, if given enough time. Flying it eventually becomes similar to flying a fighter, in that the mobility is key and in the face of overwhelming odds, doing several "bombing" passes and backing off to vent flux and wait for the enemy to expose again. I've had some successes so far against bigger fleets, but carriers and cruisers stacking aren't very Tempest-friendly. But so long there's not too much going on, I can take it in 315+315+80 seconds that I get from first and second deployment, then time until malfunctions start appearing, where I can't really fight any longer.
I recorded some footage, but I think that I started doing this too late - bounty fleets are sporting several cruisers at this point and I need a destroyer to take them on. A lone Tempest can't just out-trade a cruiser, but neither it can afford to try to reach for blindspots while getting shot by other cruisers.
Spoiler
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/187635036525166592/538002273029324820/unknown.png)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/187635036525166592/538019730221432844/unknown.png)(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/187635036525166592/538425562209976321/screenshot352.png)
The last one is a bit funny, since I took out most of the bounty ships with my Tempest, but used a destroyer to run down fleeing ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJjbXRYZmhM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQsAY_FWZws
I used a Cabal Tempest because it's more funky.
[close]
Also, I've discovered that sometimes bounties can spawn around the same planet, unintentionally doubling their strength.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Tempest on January 27, 2019, 10:02:20 AM
We should rename Tempest to Tembest.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Schwartz on January 28, 2019, 11:51:46 AM
Beautiful. *sniff*
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Cosmitz on January 28, 2019, 12:46:45 PM
High tech took a really much needed hit back in.. 0.6? 0.7? When CR was introduced and peak timers added and adjusted. While i was 'hightech besttech' before, i saw myself moving to midline due to lowered max peak and just the expense of fielding it. Each tempest requires 9 supplies a month (8 the ship, +1 terminator drone), which is equal to how much it costs to have a Hammerhead or a Shrike or even a Mule.

I don't mind the changes the Tempest and the Omen took, but they're more fit to specialized roles in your fleet than making an entire fleet of them, as you've seen. I'm not saying they may not be good massed, but at that point between 20 Omen/Tempests and 20 Mules, i'd pick 20 Mules at all times.

Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Plantissue on January 29, 2019, 08:36:46 AM
That video. The equivalent deployment in wolfs and omens would surely wreck that pirate fleet too. Though not so quickly.

Tempests and Omens have always been good. Tempest are basically super wolfs, having 2 medium energy slots, and loads of spare OP. They also don't have the Wolf problem of missing shots, because not only are Tempest extremely manoeuvrable, their medium energy mounts are on turrets. The Terminators drones are basically a free IR laser and 2 PD's The terminator drone PD seem to have a longer range than normal PD. I don't know if that is intentional or not though. They are so fast and manoeuvrable that for dipping in and out of range of combat they are as good as wolves phasing all the time. They and omens are a right joy to personally pilot being amazingly fast and manoeuvrable. They feel even better than Hyperions to pilot.

I don't know why you would rather have 20 mules rather than 20 tempests/omen Cosmitz. I would rather have a tempest than a mule for combat. Tempests simply wreck Mules in combat. Per CR, I cannot say, but per ship, mules are worthless in combat.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: PizzaInSpace on March 28, 2022, 09:34:44 AM
Man you guys werent kidding tempests are op, bought 6 of these guys and followed those builds in the first post. Little buggers wiped out a small remnant fleet with ease
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Dri on March 28, 2022, 11:54:45 AM
Ooo baby, this was a 3 year old thread.

Speed + great flux stats + good shields meant high tech was pretty OP back in the early days. Thankfully with new ship additions, rebuffing Burn Drive and just giving low tech more hull/armor things have gotten a bit closer in present times.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: Salter on March 28, 2022, 02:07:04 PM
Tempest is a really good frigate. I just kind of wish their drone hangars didnt count towards total fleet hangars. It makes it a bit harder to field as many, especially if you are already carrying around carriers or even an astral to make full use of the carrier fleet skills.
Title: Re: High Tech, Best Tech? [An in-depth view of the Tempest and Omen] (With video)
Post by: PizzaInSpace on April 02, 2022, 09:50:34 PM
true but even still having one of these guys in your fleet makes a HUGE difference, was fighting a remnant ordo, had 1 radiant but 7 brilliants and my lone tempest just baited them to the end of the map whilst I mopped up the stragglers after my fleet.