Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: knogleknuser on November 25, 2018, 12:52:51 AM

Title: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: knogleknuser on November 25, 2018, 12:52:51 AM
Yes the player shouldn't be able to make loads of money unchallenged, but expeditions are not the way to do it.
How to prevent expeditions.
1) Don't use free port.
   Which is fair enough I guess.
2) Don't produce stuff with high accessibility.
   The whole point of player colonies (for the player) is to make money, so this point is a no go.
Now that we have established that you really can't avoid expeditions, since you want your colonies to make money from exports, there is no drawback to free port except the easily worth it -3 to stability.
How to deal with expeditions.
1) Lose money
A.   Bribe them: this sort of works until it begins to cost 1 million credit per bribe. Which leads to (Bad Choice):
B.   Let the ground defence take care of them: This means your orbital space station is destroyed, which will reduce your
        colony's stability, which will reduce your income, which means you lose some money you would have made
        otherwise. (Bad Choice)
C.   Win in orbit, but lose the orbital station anyways: Same problems as B. (Bad Choice)
D.   The enemy wins and disrupts an industry or the extremely important spaceport: (EXTREMELY BAD CHOICE)
2) Lose reputation
A.   Use Contacts: You lose 25 hard to get reputation with a factions that likes you. (Bad Choice)
B.   Help Defend the Colony in person: Not only does this require the players time and prevents him from doing other
        potentially more interesting things, it will also reduce his reputation with a faction possibly leading to hostilities,
        which will only further reduce his income. The player also risks expensive repairs or losing most of his fleet.
        However, the xp and salvage is nice. (Really Bad Choice)
3) The player needs to do nothing and make no decision.
   The expedition has no chance of winning in orbit or taking down the space station it will therefore have literally 0
        impact on the player or his colonies. Happens when the expedition is weaker than the defending force (Both of which the
        player has little to no control over). Best outcome (Neutral, Status Quo),
        but not a choice the player can make.

What the enemy pays for expeditions.
Now, sending some massive fleets with 6 plus capital ships, dozens of cruisers and so on is surely an expensive affair that leaves loads of salvage around for you colonies right? Nope, only you can harvest the salvage, the colonies won't do it, and it costs the AI literally nothing to send these and there is nothing you can do about it, you cannot even annoy them back by sending your own raids/expeditions. This is incredibly unfair and frustrating.
And even if they succeeded, there would be no repercussion on the global economy if the top export planet of multiple commodities suddenly stopped exporting. The only effect it would have, is that its piece of the market share would be up for grabs.
The attacker does not care about reputation.
You could have 100/100 reputation with the faction and be commissioning them and they would still send expeditionary forces, you would think that if they had such a big problem with you that they wouldn't be paying you money on a monthly basis no?



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 25, 2018, 02:33:17 AM
Okay.
Expeditions (aka 'Invasions') do need a bit of attention, to be balanced away from being solely end game content. Simply because it is possible to get into this while the player is still early/mid game.

Firstly, expeditions should not appear for several months from the founding of the colony. At least.
It takes time for information to travel through the twisted maelstrom of hyperspace, and no-one is going to pay any attention to the rantings of some tiny trader about some miracale colony on the edge of nowhere. At least until some other guys start backing him up.

This could be handled by having a faction scout (or several) wandering about looking for you, trying to verify the existence of this rumoured new colony.
Once they find you (and they will), it could trigger a notification that says "a major faction has discovered you, and is now paying attention".
The first expedition should be basically a tap on the shoulder - A retasked patrol fleet, nothing more than a few destroyers with escorts and enough support ships to keep them fed.
After that, expeditions should scale with market share. Which I'm fairly confident they do already, but that leads to....

Colony material output, and thus market share increases far far too quickly.
All the core worlds have a headstart of centuries, established infrastructure, and several orders of magnitude more population (each).
How is this months old colony with a thousand-or-so people and barely any infrastructre able to instantly claim 1/4 of the market in anything?
There is a fairly huge mis-match between the sector economy and the player economy, and it is this which is ramping up the expeditions to such impossible heights so quickly. The player literally has it "too easy".

On top of all this there is no way for the player to attempt any form of diplomacy with a faction, so the "forever war" continues regardless of how interested in it you are.
This almost entirely puts a stop to any form of exploration, as expedition fleets quickly build to the point that even a maxed station plus several fleets from a military HQ are not enough to prevent troops being landed. To counter this, the player is now relagated to babysitting the colony, which is boring.
And to put the spiteful cherry on top of the bitter cake, you get a reputation penalty for even attempting to defend your colony yourself. They attacked you. They are the aggressors, why is the player being punished twice for being attacked?
Especially frustrating given the invading factions are clearly stated to not have an "open declaration of war", and their fleets are clearly marked as "operating in a legal grey area".

There's nothing wrong with the basics of the mechanic itself. It just needs to start much smaller, and slowly ramp up rather than instantly throw endgame fleets at the player.
And player colonies could stand to be dialled back a bit on thier material output.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Deshara on November 25, 2018, 02:37:48 AM
quick Q: did you found a colony in the core?
Bc that was my take originally, then when I was planning an expansion I noticed the game had a warning (that I overlooked) that factions in contested systems essentially treat you colonizing near them as an act of war. I started a new game and made my colony in the outter rim and it's way easier. Inner core colonizing is late-game content.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 25, 2018, 02:55:17 AM
For ref:

The first colony I founded, which got dogpiled almost instantly by multi-capital fleets was ~30ly from the core.
I considered this to be a lost cause and reverted the save.

The second colony I founded, and my first successful colony was created on the 'red' planet which is (in this instance at least) in the far lower-right corner of the map. Something like 100+ ly from the core.
Expedition fleets have been reasonably manageable enough that I felt I could start exploring again. Until the last couple, which have apparently steamrolled the defence fleets and station while I wasn't there.

In both instances the systems had no other faction presence.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Hypilein on November 25, 2018, 02:57:35 AM
I bribed the first three or four expedition fleets (either rep or money). The next run I helped defend with my fleet and after that my colony has been taking care of itself using the lvl 1 hightech station and a mostly carrierbased loadout in fleet doctrine (basically a bunch of herons and shepherds). Probably having two (now three) planets colonized in a system is beneficial, even though the lowest one was 150% Hazard. I think the expedition fleets are generally alright, but I agree that a smoother start up would help. I've been playing this game since the first patch that released the campaign mode and this update has felt a lot more difficult, because ship and especially weapon availability is really tough.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Az the Squishy on November 25, 2018, 06:07:42 PM
Checkout the document, it has all the text. Copy pasting it resulted in a mess.


Dude, https://pastebin.com/ is free, and it's just as good, hell, you could just upload a txt file instead or, just copy and post it with:

Code
This nifty code-function which should be more than plenty with whatever you're having issues with.
Or maybe, you can elaborate a bit more.
Because from the question alone, I've no idea what you're really meaning.


PS: Why a zipfile?... Of all things, why a zip?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: knogleknuser on November 25, 2018, 08:48:23 PM
I'm updating the post now, I made my posts in word and when I saw how I had to change the layout when I copy pasted it I decided to just upload the word file. Since, docx files aren't allowed I put it in a zip file.

But as I said, I am updating the post now.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 25, 2018, 09:03:15 PM
Yes the player shouldn't be able to make loads of money unchallenged, but expeditions are not the way to do it.
How to prevent expeditions.
1) Don't use free port.

Fake. None of my colony ever used free port yet still getting raids with free port as excuse.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Schwartz on November 25, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
Tbh I think they are (largely) fine. As soon as the penalty for participating in expedition battles is gone, they'll be a fun challenge that won't ruin your rep.

Yes, the other faction should have to pay some kind of price for fielding expeditions. I don't know if they currently do. But if they do, the player should have to pay some kind of price for fielding defense fleets. It's all pretty hands-off at the moment.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: nathanebht on November 25, 2018, 09:09:50 PM
Yes the player shouldn't be able to make loads of money unchallenged, but expeditions are not the way to do it.
How to prevent expeditions.
1) Don't use free port.

Fake. None of my colony ever used free port yet still getting raids with free port as excuse.

I had free port as the reason for a raid only when I turned it on. This stopped when I then turned it off. Otherwise, the reason is a particular commodity.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Hypilein on November 25, 2018, 09:45:13 PM
It will say what the reason is in the expedition fleet's tooltip. Mine was because of fuel production (I found a Synchrotron early). I only turned the freeport on after I felt that I could deal with increased number of fleets. Generally I agree that the worst thing about expedition fleets right now is that they attack you even when 100/100 commissioned and that you lose rep when you defend in person.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2018, 09:51:25 PM
Generally I agree that the worst thing about expedition fleets right now is that they attack you even when 100/100 commissioned and that you lose rep when you defend in person.

(Both on my TODO list, btw.)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: code99 on November 25, 2018, 10:19:54 PM
Generally I agree that the worst thing about expedition fleets right now is that they attack you even when 100/100 commissioned and that you lose rep when you defend in person.

(Both on my TODO list, btw.)
Awesome to hear!

Kinda makes sense if you are BFF with a certain faction, that faction shouldnt attack you. I think ill wait for 9.1 before touching colonies again.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Schwartz on November 25, 2018, 10:27:02 PM
I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Eji1700 on November 25, 2018, 10:30:26 PM
SO whats odd to me is i have currently 2 colonies, maxed out.

Both are getting raid fleets, but both have so far managed to never need my help once I got a star fortress up.  This is with raids from diktat/tri/persian.  I've yet to see an expedition fleet that would steamroll my forces.

What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: TaLaR on November 25, 2018, 10:36:35 PM
What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).

I suspect fleet size/quality factors are exactly what fleet size/quality tooltips state, without any hidden extras. In terms of actual combat ability, your doctrine (with chosen blueprints/weapons) also matters of course.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Alex on November 25, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.

To clarify, I agree with that, but factions you have a commission from seem like a reasonable exception, since that's limited to one faction.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: code99 on November 26, 2018, 12:23:59 AM
I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.

To clarify, I agree with that, but factions you have a commission from seem like a reasonable exception, since that's limited to one faction.

I guess thats an acceptable compromise ... i still think that if you have max rep with someone, they shouldnt attack you as much at least, or bribing them should be less expensive? Or, something else.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: TrashMan on November 26, 2018, 02:13:09 AM
What is needed - besides scaling down player colony growth and profits - is more diplomatic options and more thinking and consequences on the side of the AI.

The Hegemony might want to give me a hand if the Diktat hates my guts and is attacking my colony. Basically war trough proxies, that is so common in reality. Make hidden pacts an backroom deals.

Even things like "how about you scale down your heavy machinery production, in the interest of our good relations? We wouldn't want to nuke you. We'll throw in this blueprint in the offer adn some money." And then if you accept the deal, you get an active colony debuff (icon in the corner) that lasts for X long - which you can cancel at any time, but breakign the deal will greatly anger them and give them Casus Belli.

Speaking of which, fleets shouldn't appear out of thin air and losses of entire fleets should have an effect. At least in a simplified way, like a resource bar that fills up based on economy and other factors (like a militant faction mgiht have a boost) and depletes as ships/fleets are lost. And you need X of that bar to spawn a fleet of Y size.

Something simple - CP/deployment points for ships are already defined and can be used, just add the totals for the fleet value, and you have to have that many RU's (Resource Units) to spawn a fleet.
And every day/week, colonies would generate RU's depending on size and economy.

This means that a faction that suffers a string of losses will need soem time to rebuild their fleets.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: XazoTak on November 26, 2018, 02:23:59 AM
I built a colony on the edge of the sector, hoping it wouldn't be attacked and I could do heavy industry in peace. Only a few months old before a decent-rep faction decided that they weren't happy about my market share, so apparently the 30 lightyear distance doesn't matter one bit.
Colonies are insanely OP right now, but this solution is stupid.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: TaLaR on November 26, 2018, 02:26:11 AM
Nothing and nobody cares about distance. That's annoying and unrealistic.
Then again, player can easily stack more accessibility in his far away colony than core worlds have.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: code99 on November 26, 2018, 02:29:24 AM
Nothing and nobody cares about distance. That's annoying and unrealistic.

Well, there goes my dream of creating a safe haven as far away as possible from the core worlds.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Thana on November 26, 2018, 06:06:52 AM
What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).

You can mouseover the fleet size percentage on your colony screen to see what goes into it, but in short, stability, fleet buildings and colony size are all very important factors when determining fleet sizes. Ship quality is improved by stability (making it a double-dipping factor, so very important!) and by improving heavy industry and adding a nanoforge to it.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 26, 2018, 07:06:49 AM
I for one wish that I can start scrapping business.

I have perpetual war in my most successful star system with expedition forces from TT, Hegemony(both inspection and expedition) Persians and church which are outnumbered 2:1 to my defending forces on orbit.

At least 2 dozen capital-ship rank fleets are fighting. Constantly. If I can tap into this junk I would be very rich(er) man.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Hessu on November 26, 2018, 07:16:00 AM
I think the expedictions are fine except if you're commissioned. Think about it: You're a cheeseseller and you have this one good friend you love like a brother, but one day he creates a cheeseshop right next to your shop and starts to eat your profits. There is gonna be a war no matter how good buddies you are.

When i created my first colony it got steamrolled by expeditions. I couldn't fight them off so i just left the colony on its own and went to hunt bounties and trade for a couple of months. When i got some extracash i spend it on the defenses of the colony(keep in mind, you don't have to be in the colony to build stuff) and pretty quickly it became strong enough to fend off the attackers.

True enough if you make a colony as fast as possible it will become difficult because of the upkeep, but building a colony when you don't have an army and/or lots of cash is stupid anyways as it should be.

BTW when are we gonna be able to conquer other factions planets? Or are we already and i've missed it?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Flet on November 26, 2018, 07:38:06 AM
I dont really understand the rationale behind expeditions working the way they currently do at all anyway. Of course colonies being attacked is certainly a good mechanic, but for other factions to simply automatically do it with out repercussion seems extremely unrealistic. They have their reasons, of course, you being market competition, or doing something that annoys their set of morals is a reason for them to not like you or want to try and do something about this upstart colony/faction, but just sending open warfleets against you seems very badly thought out.

Id expect something like this:
1. Those fleets are costly for them to do
2. If you are commissioned you are a formal part of that faction, you pay a tax, but attacking you is attacking them, if they are at war they might even send some ships to help defend your colonies. Doing things that faction approves of does not bother them (making fuel if you are part of the SD is merely expanding their monopoly on fuel production, for example)
3. With open war being diplomatically inconvenient, people who do dislike your colony have other means to try and persuade you to stop, such as economic sanctions, sabotage, attempting to start a revolution, or taking advantage of natural disaster (a food shortage sees their operatives trading food to hungry civilians in exchange for electrical wiring and machinery, thus lowering your production output). Some people within your own faction may not like you and try to do this (someone in the SD not liking some upstart getting in on the fuel business, even though you are allowed to do so officially)
4. A set of diplomatic mechanics to try and gain favor with people in your faction/other factions.
5. If you are not commissioned you count as your own faction, and have diplomatic options to interact with others as such.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: speeder on November 26, 2018, 08:48:30 AM
Also what expeditions do could be done in other manners...

For example siege: have factions attack traders or hire privateers... this had RL precedent AND the game already supports this anyway (you can do that yourself, if you interact with random ships the game tells you the economic consequences of killing them).

Other economic shenanigans (for example refusal to trade with you, causing the expected accessibility loss and thus decreasing your market share).

Evne for combat, dealing with privateers would be proably more fun than the constant meatgrinding on orbit of your colonies.


Also the markets need some balancing to not trigger market share attacks too soon. Right now you can with a single size 3 planet domiante a market... While AI have size 9 planets competing with you in a tiny market... Total market values should go way up, while size 3 planets shouldn't capture so much market share.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 26, 2018, 09:28:14 AM
I rather like the current system.

After I settled my first colony and was receiving raids I had to stay around when they arrived and had some really fun battles next to my station. Even when the enemy brought multiple fleets of 30-40 ships I could defend very well since stations on your side is a huge bonus and a true gamechanger. Now that I have already 30m in the bank and don't want to stay chained to it I just let it defend itself and, while the stability has taken hits, it has yet to lose to a raid, and I have a station that have received over 10 "very strong" ones. The game more than enough provides tools for your stations to handle themselves so I really don't get how the expeditions are "unfair and unfun".
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 26, 2018, 09:57:00 AM
I just let it defend itself and, while the stability has taken hits, it has yet to lose to a raid

Congrats on being lucky I suppose.
I left my fortress world alone with a maxed station, ground defence, and miltary base. And plenty of patrol fleets with capships/carriers wandering about boosted by a nanoforge, and the Hegemony pitches up with an "evenly matched" fleet and proceeds to kick all my anthills over while I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 26, 2018, 10:49:07 AM
Not lucky, just well equipped. All my colonies at this point sport an Alpha AI which provides 50% bonus to ground defenses. Your colony meanwhile seems to be lacking a
Spoiler
Planetary Shield.
[close]


I also hope that you've upgraded your Ground Defenses to Heavy Batteries and Military Base to High Command.

I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.

That's just false. You can time to go back to your station by the time the fleet arrives (usually a large fleet takes 100+ days to do so which is more than enough time, not to mention that you can also intercept the fleet) and, at least in my experience, most of the attacks I was receiving before the end game (which I had no further need to defend by myself) were not of the "very strong" kind which meant a fortress was enough to halt them.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: nathanebht on November 26, 2018, 11:08:08 AM
I just let it defend itself and, while the stability has taken hits, it has yet to lose to a raid

Congrats on being lucky I suppose.
I left my fortress world alone with a maxed station, ground defence, and miltary base. And plenty of patrol fleets with capships/carriers wandering about boosted by a nanoforge, and the Hegemony pitches up with an "evenly matched" fleet and proceeds to kick all my anthills over while I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.

Did you customize your Doctrine and Blueprints? Would have to think this is key.
Select the nicest ship blueprints you have. You can also pick weapon and fighter blueprints.
Fleet composition and doctrine settings seem very important. Max the ship size slider and it has no drawbacks? Free defensive capital ships in my fleets.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 26, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
Congrats on being lucky I suppose.
I left my fortress world alone with a maxed station, ground defence, and miltary base. And plenty of patrol fleets with capships/carriers wandering about boosted by a nanoforge, and the Hegemony pitches up with an "evenly matched" fleet and proceeds to kick all my anthills over while I'm on the other side of sector and completely unable to do anything about it.

All I'm getting from this, is that I'm not allowed to leave this colony alone anymore.

Either something is off, you're doing a thing wrong, you're facing expedition strengths I haven't seen, or you're lying.
I've tried several games and my friend has reported the same: the expeditions all rapidly become a non-threat if you build and upgrade just an orbital station and the patrol HQ. Only in my first game of this entire patch have I actually been threatened by Expeditions, and that's because I failed to build any defenses, not knowing they were a thing.

Here is a threat I have in game right now:

(https://i.imgtc.com/IYkU5ej.png)

And this is the colony:
(https://i.imgtc.com/sZj1wi9.png)

What strength-ratings are the enemy expeditions that qualify as evenly matched?

Oh and for Doctrines I have, and have always had
(https://i.imgtc.com/r3Mp9Nz.png)
For blueprint Prio I do pick the ships I think are better, but they don't even have to be that good - I generally only pick high-tech ships and high-tech weapons simply because I personally fancy lasers, and for significant amounts of my "fending off strong expedition"-time, I'm still limited to Mining Lasers & Blasters.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 26, 2018, 11:28:49 AM
What strength-ratings are the enemy expeditions that qualify as evenly matched?

"Very strong" as opposed to the "Fairly strong" you shared. I've been getting them quite frequently now. They are manageable though, as I outlined before.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: solardawning on November 26, 2018, 11:33:48 AM
If you're able to build two or more colonies in close proximity (optimal situation: planet & moon, or moons of a gas giant), then once built up with starbases and military bases, they'll be unbeatable by any strength attack.
Double the fleets patrolling.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 26, 2018, 11:34:19 AM
Yeah, after I posted that I loaded up another save in year 2011 on a size-8 colony.
They're facing Very Strong, but the enemy is still outmatched in both departments.

What colony-size are you?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: knogleknuser on November 26, 2018, 11:51:50 AM
I support Serenitis opinion.

I too am facing very strong expeditions on a regular basis from multiple factions, they go from evenly matched to superior in term of fleet strength comparison. Doctrines are setup for max fleet size and the best (and biggest) ships. Just "Strong" expeditions are always outmatched by orbital defences.

Colonies are size 8 to 10, they all receive ships from a colony with a pristine nanoforge+orbital work, fleet logistics is maxed out for the one in charge of the colony. (Either me or an alpha core)

They have a level 3 space station and patrol HQ /Military base/High Command (Since military bases don't increase fleet size according to the ingame info, I have been experimenting to potentially optimize income)

Their raiding/boarding strength is usually outmatched, which means that I at most lose my orbital station, (which is -3 stability for 90 days, that equals to about 100k-200k/month less for 3 months)

I get about 1 or 2 raids every 2 months. Usually targetting the same colony despite there being 9 targets. (All with free port and high market share of various products, and all size 8 plus)

Even if I did have an industry that increased local fleet size to levels that would allow my colonies to easily beat the repeated expeditions, that would just create a new problem. Expeditions would be almost completely and utterly pointless and add no fun to the gameplay experience. (Currently, they subtract from the gameplay experience, so it would still be a step forward)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: speeder on November 26, 2018, 11:53:37 AM
I got totally stomped while having size 3...

Ie: my colony was still new, still size 3, and already had endless stream of capital ships of all factions pounding it. No way this would work with just upgrading stuff... my total defense even at max upgrades was still tiny, only pickets and ground force of 500 or so (instead of 7000 like your screenshot)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 26, 2018, 12:06:15 PM
I get about 1 or 2 raids every 2 months. Usually targetting the same colony despite there being 9 targets. (All with free port and high market share of various products, and all size 8 plus)
Ah yes. I think factions prefer to target capital world(the planet where your faction sends manufactured weapons/ships) if there are multiple possible, equally large targets.
This is potentially an excellent bait.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Eji1700 on November 26, 2018, 12:07:09 PM
What determines fleet str?  Is it just how much money you're making in the market?  Both my colonies do not have freeport on and run 0 AI cores, but it still makes me about 200k per cycle (depending on pather junk, which is a different issue).

I suspect fleet size/quality factors are exactly what fleet size/quality tooltips state, without any hidden extras. In terms of actual combat ability, your doctrine (with chosen blueprints/weapons) also matters of course.
I meant enemy invasion fleet size.  My whole point was that I'm yet to have the trouble many are claiming where they just blitz my colony with a super fleet. They did blitz with something absurd for a colony that was just starting (1 cap and many crusiers) but the largest thing i've seen was 4 caps + cruisers, broken into 3ish fleets, and even waiting for them to all engage my star fortress alone, it still won.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: speeder on November 26, 2018, 12:56:09 PM
Seemly fleet strength is partially tied to the factions own economic success, I saw in other thread someone saying that if you bomb their orbial factories their fleet strength drops.


Since I tend to play a sort of heroic type that helps everyone, this might be a reason why the factions are all super strong... since I hunt pirates, ludds, etc... for everyone... keep convoys safe, don't smuggle, etc...
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 26, 2018, 01:40:52 PM
Mm, I don't interact with the other factions' stuff at all, so I don't think that is necessarily it.
Do you still have your Size 3 colony that is attracting expeditions? What defense industries do you have, at what level?

My ground defense is 7,000 because they get multiplied a bunch by the higher-tier buildings (3x in some of them) & Planetary Operations, and the base defense goes up by like 100 every Colony Size which is huge.
But I don't think I've ever had it go towards ground defense, is the thing. Not that I'd particularly know, I suppose - they just all "Fail."
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 26, 2018, 05:34:59 PM
Currently, they subtract from the gameplay experience, ...

I have a hard time figuring out how you got to this conclusion. Expeditions for me feel similar to something akin to pollution in city builders. As you grow larger it also becomes a larger problem. From your own example it seems like you managed it very well, and only one out of your nine colonies is suffering from a minor penalty loss so what's the issue? I imagine that you are ranking in millions per month.

You had to engage and make decisions while interacting with factions, how is this not a positive for the overall experience over not having anything challenging them?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 26, 2018, 06:11:42 PM
If you're able to build two or more colonies in close proximity (optimal situation: planet & moon, or moons of a gas giant), then once built up with starbases and military bases, they'll be unbeatable by any strength attack.
Double the fleets patrolling.
Perhaps. But is double fleet truly enough against all malevolent forces of the sector?

(https://i.imgtc.com/SXJL5Gq.png)

(https://i.imgtc.com/V2PQfmB.png)

I welcome all forms of expedition.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 26, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
Are those colonies profitable? IIRC the planets are all barren in Penelope's Star.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 26, 2018, 06:21:19 PM
They probably are.
You can still produce drugs & organs via simple pop, which scales with size, and importing is free so you can just import ores and stuff and make aspensive transplutonics and whatnot out of.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 26, 2018, 06:32:29 PM
Are those colonies profitable? IIRC the planets are all barren in Penelope's Star.

If you work for it, then yes.
(https://i.imgtc.com/uqtsYfS.png)

Edit: I may have increased population tax income by 40% or so in previous play through because screw high hazard worlds.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Thaago on November 26, 2018, 07:46:18 PM
How long did you spend exploring/grinding to get all those AI cores and pristine nanoforges? Not gonna lie, that is an excessive amount of loot. 
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 26, 2018, 07:46:58 PM
What year is it in your game, Reinhark?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: knogleknuser on November 26, 2018, 11:55:01 PM
Cyan Leader

My original blog post explains why I think they subtract from the gameplay experience.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Histidine on November 27, 2018, 05:41:39 AM
19 alpha cores? I found three (counting the quest one) after scouring 80% of the Sector :(

Although what really amuses me about the screenshot is that it reflects a real-life economic fact, namely that a primary economy is completely unnecessary to make an incredibly wealthy polity. Farming and resource extraction ain't got nothing on manufacturing.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 27, 2018, 06:27:16 AM
How long did you spend exploring/grinding to get all those AI cores and pristine nanoforges? Not gonna lie, that is an excessive amount of loot.  

for AI cores, I've manually transferred them from last game, so that would be... 10 ingame years of exploration and non stop [ Redactated ] farming?

I could not transfer nanoforges, so I've obtained them with any means. 2 of them are from exploration. Another 3 from modded faction. Dassault-Mikoyan Engineering. 1 from same mod, Blade breakers. 1 from Hegemony and 1 from Persians.

19 alpha cores? I found three (counting the quest one) after scouring 80% of the Sector :(

The protip for getting cores is that [ Redactated ] station:
1. Respawns fleets, and therefore respawn cores.
2. Loots from station suck.

So you should let it live. And farm it. If you dare. Because their lategame fleet get really, really big.

Edit:
Oh, and get into commission while you are at it. Those factions will pay you while you farm.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: WastedAlmond on November 27, 2018, 08:38:32 AM
I'm dropping in to give my experience with colonies. I've had no issues with expeditions except when my colonies were rather small and barebones.
 
First I gathered some capital by exploring and doing some minor bounty hunting. I'd managed to scrounge up some good ship BPs and a pristine nanoforge during my exploration also. Then after discovering a low hazard planet I proceeded to colonize it and rapidly expanded the infrastructure of said planet, managing to both start up its economy and defenses quite fast ~3 in game months. Then for the first few expeditions I had to help the planet fight them off.

After some time the planet produced enough revenue that it payed for most bribes by itself and even left some cash to spare in case my fleet failed at something. At this point I realized how useful it is to use growth incentives for a low hazard colony, because of the total population's effect on fleet size, at this point the planet could take most assaults and I'd bribe the absolutely huge ones. But once it grew to the size of "several millions of people" the defensive fleets would pound anything that came within the system.

I can really just leave my colonies to fend for themselves at this point, smaller outposts I have to protect occasionally, but the powers that be really hate my capital world so they don't get much hate anyways.

Edit: I started with one colony and bulked it up a bit before colonizing more, trying to avoid too much flak from pirates and factions. Throughout the game this first colony which is huge has continued to be the biggest target for factions.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dostya on November 27, 2018, 11:05:56 AM
I've never had a problem defending a colony from a raid, but I tend to ensure a minimum of 2 colonies in a system and prefer 3 - all with full upgrades on their military bases. Between growth incentives being insanely broken and the tremendous profitability of even a size 3 low-hazard, I usually only bribe a raid or two before I can leave the colonies to handle themselves. Just, you know, you have to be prepared enough to found a couple colonies and have the money to set up the infrastructure to pull resources to found a third. Since I wanted to be able to provide all basic resources in faction in the same system the first time, I just never had the problems that others have had with this.

If anything, there should be some kind of ingame tip about putting colonies in the same system or a means for colonies in different systems to come to each others' defense.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 27, 2018, 01:51:29 PM
*harsh*
If you don't belive me, that's fine. It does not however change anything.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/2ZQn0KS.png)
[close]
This is my current threat.
The previous one was the Hegemony with both levels at "evenly matched", and they managed to trash both the station and the port.
This one looks like it's going to put the station in again but not do anything else. I intend to be present this time to see what happens, and maybe put some missiles somewhere sensitive.

Here is my main colony, and the target of all this aggro.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/5tXsMgf.png)
[close]
Note the terrorism and lack of AI cores.
If I turn the free port off atm the colony goes 151K into the red. Even with all the cores I have assigned, it still totals -22K.
Will have to check again when the fuel prod. comes back online, but it should be somewhere around ~250K with the port on. Hopefully that will be enough for me to turn it off at some point.
I could assign some AI cores to reduce costs, but I'm more than a bit wary of these 'inspection' guys.
Q: What sort of threat are the inspection fleets? Going off the lore, they seem like the kind of thing that would make expeditions look quite restrained given the Hegemony's well known love of AI.

Maybe double (or more) colonies in a system is the way to go next time. Along with a great deal more exploration, looking not only for decent planets but also large systems to populate.
This system only has 1 decent world, 1 'can only afford to support mining' world, and 1 worthless irradiated rock.

Interestingly enough I have 3 other colonies besides the one above.
A small bare-bones mining world in the same system, solely for collecting volatiles.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/QR3RTwM.png)
[close]
A heavily built up world a few ly away, but with no free port.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/g1xB4LI.png)
[close]
And a stockpile in Duzahk.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/H5NnIum.png)
[close]
NONE of these have had any attention whatsoever.
(Yes, I am aware that they are not the 'best' planets ever, and that lower hazard levels = mo' money. Limited amount of exploration done due to wanting to see new content etc etc.)

This is a map of the sector, and you can see the three systems I have occupied.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/CR4kYFp.png)
[close]
These jokers are so determined to use literally their entire annual fuel supply to harrass some idiot out on the fringes of nowhere. :P

[edit]
Just ran a few days and got a new threat:
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/KYdIWmF.png)
[close]
Same as last time, except less/weaker ground forces.
I think the colony has grown since the last one.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Darloth on November 27, 2018, 01:58:55 PM
I do see a gamma core on that population tile, if that's worth mentioning.   Of course I think the luddites hit you anyway if you have an Orbital Works...
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 27, 2018, 02:05:38 PM
That's a good catch. I thought I'd pulled all the cores.
*comm chirp*
You gained a new trait: NEGLIGENT :P
(They are a bit hard to see tbh, the colours blend in with the tiles.)

Quote
I think the luddites hit you anyway if you have an Orbital Works...
I'm p. sure they hit you if you have ANY heavy industry.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 27, 2018, 02:10:52 PM
What's hitting your fleet quality?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 27, 2018, 02:17:45 PM
What's hitting your fleet quality?
234% doesn't seem awful. No idea what's good or what isn't though.
Possibly it might be lack of a decent nanoforge. No idea what most of this stuff does tbh, only had 0.9 for a few days.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Dragon239 on November 27, 2018, 02:38:04 PM
No, no, that's the size, which yeah is pretty good.
The quality can be viewed as a tooltip by hovering over it. I can tell it's not >=100% because you still have the 1 bronze "d-mod" symbol.

Edit: Actually I don't think there's anything wrong with it, you just only have a corrupted nanoforge rather than a pristine one. Didn't notice that.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 11:55:52 AM
I wouldn't like the idea that a positive rep with other factions made you immune to this danger. Because expeditions are a big part of the counterbalance to colony profits. Positive faction rep already makes the game easier, it doesn't need to negate half of the endgame threats too. It could increase the interval between expeditions, possibly.

Thats why I kind of wish it was impossible to have good relations with all the factions at once, aside from pirates/LP. I wish that improving relations with one decreased it with another, for another layer of descion making and guaranteed drama.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Vind on November 28, 2018, 01:25:19 PM
Fleet size and quality is essential for defeating very strong expeditions. My single system colony with 537% fleet size can defeat very strong ones from diktat and tri-tachyon with ease but only 50/50 from persean league because they got high quality fleet due to pristine nanoforge. Without high quality ships you cant auto-defeat very strong expeditions unless you stacking colonies in the same system.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 28, 2018, 01:39:33 PM
No kidding....

Threat update!:
My dear friends from the Persean League stopped by, and we had lots of unrequested fun.
Several rowdy groups turned up on my doorstep and started making a nuisance of themselves.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/fX5yZsb.png)(https://i.imgur.com/2O2W5PM.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/memGysW.png)(https://i.imgur.com/vXxkOjV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/kjSOfdv.png)
[close]
And proceeded to make quite a scene while completely overwhelming the invited guests and turning them into charming debris fields. How rude.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/gmorDLS.png)
[close]


This time however, I actually managed to be present when trouble turned up and took action with my surplus of hammers.
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/D7br7Uh.png)
[close]

End result:

A single world cannot stand alone.
Multi-world systems seem to be essential to autonomy at the moment, as a single fleet HQ just cannot form enough fleets to even slow these guys down, let alone repel them.
Hegemony still incoming.

[e]
H fleet was.... A lot of trivial ships + 5 Onslaughts.
Tried to avoid engaging at all this time. Fleets seemed to do okay-ish, but just couldn't keep up so some got through.
I really wish the patrols wouldn't all rush into battle at the first sign of the enemy, leaving the station to fend for itself.
So I hung back there to support it against what was left.

2 Onslaughts actually rammed the station. Burn drive right into it.
Did a fair bit of damage, but didn't manage to destroy it. Thankfully.
And I managed to 'lose' my flagship to being flanked by a battleship while paying attention to another. How embarassing.

Result:

And lol. Can't even turn off free port to try and reduce the aggro. -50K.
Guess I'm not going exploring then....
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 01:48:52 PM

A single world cannot stand alone.
Multi-world systems seem to be essential to autonomy at the moment, as a single fleet HQ just cannot form enough fleets to even slow these guys down, let alone repel them.
Hegemony still incoming.


Not even then sometimes. Even forewarned about these issues from reading the boards I settled two planets in the same system with patrols, tier 2 ground defenses, and an orbital battlestation up and running mere days before the Hegemony showed up, and the best my chances were rated at is "uncertain".  I was forced to intervene myself (made it there as the battle was in progress) and take the relations hit.

On the plus side, they did deliver a free Onslaught to my doorstep.

I'm sure it didnt help that the Hegemony force attacked at the same time as *two other factions*. Pirates and LC were also spreading my forces thin.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Draba on November 28, 2018, 02:05:45 PM
A single world cannot stand alone.
Multi-world systems seem to be essential to autonomy at the moment, as a single fleet HQ just cannot form enough fleets to even slow these guys down, let alone repel them.
Hegemony still incoming.

You are doing something wrong.
Single size 10 world with pristine nanoforge:
- doctrine 4 warship/2 carrier/4 officer quality/2 ship quality/max ship size
- prioritized conquest/falcon/mora/hammerhead (hammerhead + whatever I had first)
- star fortress/high command
- fleet size 344%

Didn't have to intervene since the start of the game, expeditions always lose.

(https://i.imgur.com/MhHtFnim.jpg)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 02:08:57 PM


You are doing something wrong.
Single size 10 world with pristine nanoforge:


Didn't have to intervene since the start of the game, expeditions always lose.


I think this is the point. Colonies don't start out at size 10, or with a pristine nanoforge, but killer expedition forces start immediately.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Daquan_Baton on November 28, 2018, 02:22:20 PM
My fleets usually win against expeditions and profit isn't an issue after about 6 months because of how much the colony progresses in that time, for me at least, but I always settle on Alkali worlds, which almost always have extensive ruins and habitability. So what I'm thinking is that you are settling on fairly high danger worlds, and aren't able to rake in a good profit to speed up development in time before attacks begin. I focus on profit, getting the spaceport up asap, exploiting the planet's most abundant resources and defending the colony myself before I start assigning AI cores to places, which draws more attention to your colony.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Draba on November 28, 2018, 02:30:53 PM
I think this is the point. Colonies don't start out at size 10, or with a pristine nanoforge, but killer expedition forces start immediately.

Still, I intervened ~3 times total since playing the patch.
Expeditions were eaten up by defenses even on a smaller world, but 6-7 is very fast anyway.
Enemy fleets  probably do scale a bit, not sure but they certainly didn't do anything against no nanoforge lvl 2 station/patrol either.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 03:55:29 PM
I think this is the point. Colonies don't start out at size 10, or with a pristine nanoforge, but killer expedition forces start immediately.

Still, I intervened ~3 times total since playing the patch.
Expeditions were eaten up by defenses even on a smaller world, but 6-7 is very fast anyway.
Enemy fleets  probably do scale a bit, not sure but they certainly didn't do anything against no nanoforge lvl 2 station/patrol either.

Neither of these extremes are particularly fun to me--getting your colony wiped in the early game if you dont babysit full time, or having invincible planetary systems on auto pilot. I think players should have to play an *occasional* active role in colony defense for extreme threats for colonies of any size. These threats should be less frequent than they are now, and less severe in the early going.  They should be a dramatic event, but not business as usual.

If anything, I think the current curve should be inverted so that reasonable investment in automated defenses is sufficient for most early colony threats, but eventually the player will need to assume a more active role in defending against extreme threats to late game large colonies. 

At no point should a player feel like they can never run missions out to the edge of the map without getting called back to defend the colony, which is the way I feel now.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Draba on November 28, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
Still, I intervened ~3 times total since playing the patch.
Expeditions were eaten up by defenses even on a smaller world, but 6-7 is very fast anyway.
Enemy fleets  probably do scale a bit, not sure but they certainly didn't do anything against no nanoforge lvl 2 station/patrol either.

Neither of these extremes are particularly fun to me--getting your colony wiped in the early game if you dont babysit full time, or having invincible planetary systems on auto pilot. I think players should have to play an *occasional* active role in colony defense for extreme threats for colonies of any size. These threats should be less frequent than they are now, and less severe in the early going.  They should be a dramatic event, but not business as usual.

If anything, I think the current curve should be inverted so that reasonable investment in automated defenses is sufficient for most early colony threats, but eventually the player will need to assume a more active role in defending against extreme threats to late game large colonies. 

At no point should a player feel like they can never run missions out to the edge of the map without getting called back to defend the colony, which is the way I feel now.

Didn't say anything about what I prefer, just that a single system with proper defenses will easily fend off attackers by itself.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 28, 2018, 04:15:53 PM
Neither of these extremes are particularly fun to me--getting your colony wiped in the early game if you dont babysit full time, or having invincible planetary systems on auto pilot. I think players should have to play an *occasional* active role in colony defense for extreme threats for colonies of any size. These threats should be less frequent than they are now, and less severe in the early going.  They should be a dramatic event, but not business as usual.

If anything, I think the current curve should be inverted so that reasonable investment in automated defenses is sufficient for most early colony threats, but eventually the player will need to assume a more active role in defending against extreme threats to late game large colonies. 

At no point should a player feel like they can never run missions out to the edge of the map without getting called back to defend the colony, which is the way I feel now.

It's just obvious people falling into traps wanting to rush the colony progress and got instantly hammered for rushing.
The small size colony shouldn't produce as much and shouldn't get as much accessibility to even get a good share in market in first place, while ppl craving profits are doing so, they get those expeditions they're not ready for.
Mechanically it's a well-done design, but practically it needs more tutorial and explanation, like another tooltip when setting up first colony telling you should not produce too much to draw attention.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 04:37:42 PM


Didn't say anything about what I prefer, just that a single system with proper defenses will easily eventually fend off attackers by itself.

Corrected  for accuracy.




It's just obvious people falling into traps wanting to rush the colony progress and got instantly hammered for rushing.
The small size colony shouldn't produce as much and shouldn't get as much accessibility to even get a good share in market in first place, while ppl craving profits are doing so, they get those expeditions they're not ready for.
Mechanically it's a well-done design, but practically it needs more tutorial and explanation, like another tooltip when setting up first colony telling you should not produce too much to draw attention.

"Obvious people"? You mean new/dumb/casual/anyone not me or armed with all my meta-knowledge-people?

Good mechanics are intuitive. It's not intuitive at all to get hammered for trying to make an efficient, productive colony or filling a colony's needs. Most other games you get rewarded for that.

I dont think a player should face a colony wipe just because they turned on Free Port to supply a need the game tells them the colonists have.  I'm not rushing anything, or using AI cores, and I have no idea how to optimize an economy.  But I do know that having to tie one arm behind your back and deliberately keep a colony small is not a very fun/intuitive way to play a colony building game.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 28, 2018, 04:51:15 PM


I dont think a player should face a colony wipe just because they turned on Free Port to supply a need the game tells them the colonists have.  I'm not rushing anything, or using AI cores, and I have no idea how to optimize an economy.  But I do know that having to tie one arm behind your back and deliberately keep a colony small is not a very fun/intuitive way to play a colony building game.

I think they totally should for not even reading why the major factions want to F with them. If you think you can fend it off yourself go do it, if you can't and want to do something else you also can with "deliberately" keeping the colony small.
Plus, the very first few expeditions can be averted with reasonable small bill.
IMO it's more of a case ppl "deliberately" pushing productivity to maximum without knowing that will draw some serious attention until they literally got spanked.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 05:13:28 PM


I dont think a player should face a colony wipe just because they turned on Free Port to supply a need the game tells them the colonists have.  I'm not rushing anything, or using AI cores, and I have no idea how to optimize an economy.  But I do know that having to tie one arm behind your back and deliberately keep a colony small is not a very fun/intuitive way to play a colony building game.

I think they totally should for not even reading why the major factions want to F with them. If you think you can fend it off yourself go do it, if you can't and want to do something else you also can with "deliberately" keeping the colony small.
Plus, the very first few expeditions can be averted with reasonable small bill.
IMO it's more of a case ppl "deliberately" pushing productivity to maximum without knowing that will draw some serious attention until they literally got spanked.

In my case, that "small" bill was 100k credits which I absolutely did not have, and by the time I did that option was no longer there. So let's not pretend that's in any way a reliable counter for a new player. If I had been 5 days late in getting my orbital up, I would have lost that colony even with my intervention. There has got to be some intermediate step ( a diplomatic warning?) between making a problematic decision, and a capital ship doomstack to allow players to course correct.

Players are trained by countless other games to build and produce with their colonies as soon as possible. Pretending that having to deliberately *not* do this to survive, against factions that you otherwise have good relations with, is in any way intuitive for a new player does the game no favors. This game is a commercial product, and having it get hammered by professional and user reviews criticizing opaque and arbitrary difficulty is in no one's interest.

But mostly, as per the thread title, it simply isn't fun.  I want to *build* my colony, and I imagine a great many other people will too.

Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 28, 2018, 05:20:55 PM


Players are trained by countless other games to build and produce with their colonies as soon as possible. Pretending that having to deliberately *not* do this to survive, against factions that you otherwise have good relations with, is in any way intuitive for a new player does the game no favors. This game is a commercial product, and having it get hammered by professional and user reviews criticizing opaque and arbitrary difficulty is in no one's interest.


I think *THIS* is the issue. I never rushed for colony until, well, I feel I wanted to and sit on something like 500k, worried the payroll of crew killing my economy.
It's not that this game is not teaching but otherwise some other game kept giving some biased information and making player make terrible decisions not knowing things just work differently here.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Histidine on November 28, 2018, 05:52:56 PM
Players are trained by countless other games to build and produce with their colonies as soon as possible. Pretending that having to deliberately *not* do this to survive, against factions that you otherwise have good relations with, is in any way intuitive for a new player does the game no favors. This game is a commercial product, and having it get hammered by professional and user reviews criticizing opaque and arbitrary difficulty is in no one's interest.

I think *THIS* is the issue. I never rushed for colony until, well, I feel I wanted to and sit on something like 500k, worried the payroll of crew killing my economy.
It's not that this game is not teaching but otherwise some other game kept giving some biased information and making player make terrible decisions not knowing things just work differently here.
(emphasis mine)
I feel like the underlined phrases contradict each other.

Anyway: I've significantly played one other game where staying under the radar of the large opposing party as much as possible is a key game mechanic, namely AI War. That game makes a big point of informing the player to do this; IIRC the tutorial specifically explains it, and the "AI rage" indicator is one of the big GUI elements in the header bar where the player's economy resources are also displayed.
In contrast, the first indicator that you shouldn't grow too fast in Starsector or you'll get attacked is when the expedition planning intel message arrives.

It would be good (and far more believable) if, before sending any expedition fleets, the big faction sent the player a polite letter. "Dear Sir/Madam, We notice that you are now a significant producer of commodities including X, Y and Z. Be careful not to produce too much or we won't be responsible for the consequences." (Although the player would need new buttons to comply, since growth is currently automatic.)

I could also see a tutorial quest that first time players have to complete in order to found colonies (much like how the starting tutorial is mandatory on first run), explaining which planets to look for, how defences work and little things like the expeditions to watch out for.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on November 28, 2018, 05:59:58 PM
Some notes:
* Unless player does trickery like removing spaceport from time to time, colony grow on a good planet is unavoidable.
* Just setting up Tech Mining on a planet with Vast Ruins WILL attract the expedition fleets from the Diktat at a minimum.  Too easy and no effort required to receive the pain.

It is too easy to attract killer invasion fleets if you do not know what you are doing, and I sure did not when I first played the 0.9a release.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 28, 2018, 06:02:00 PM
I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 28, 2018, 06:08:13 PM
I feel like the underlined phrases contradict each other.

Not really. What I tried to say is people may refuse to get taught by SS but use their "knowledge" from some other similar style games instead and resulted in the aftermath we're seeing here and there.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on November 28, 2018, 06:08:35 PM
I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.
I had no idea 175% would do a number on my account when I first played.  With max colony skills, it is okay, but I still want to find the ideal place for a new primary colony.  All of the low hazard planets I found for most of my game are either low on resources or highly isolated.  It turns out the system just north of the League could be a good multi-colony system and a second next to it.  Low on resources, but low on hazard and has what I need.  (I explored nearly the whole east of the sector and just have a string of lone waypoint colonies for my trouble.

Even poor resources is enough if admin has Industrial Planning 2 (or an alpha core) and that colony is the biggest one to supply the rest.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 06:10:25 PM
Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

Subjective obviously, but game factions reacting to player decisions in plausible, intuitive manner= Fun.  Surprise colony-ending doomstack from a friendly neighbor = not fun.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Sutopia on November 28, 2018, 06:28:30 PM
Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

Subjective obviously, but game factions reacting to player decisions in plausible, intuitive manner= Fun.  Surprise colony-ending doomstack from a friendly neighbor = not fun.

I think it would be good enough just adding a diplomatic stage before any expedition initiates, giving you some "kind" warns and let you have a chance to fix it.
I've suggested some kind of "production agreement" option when factions try negotiate with you, lower your production for some time.
In economics this is some real deal when monopoly tend to get more net profit. Two company cooperating to produce less product yield more profit (since they act like monopoly) than natural competitive nash equilibrium.

BTW, it doesn't really require you to use AI core to *** off major factions, just install a synthetic core with a nice megaport and Sindy would be mad enough to send expeditions.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 07:03:01 PM
Regarding the disconnect between faction relations and the seemingly arbitrary invasion system:

Is there a reason why it wouldn't be better to simply have certain colony management decisions (free port, AI use, etc) simply start to decrease relations with another faction until they become hostile, with invasions the natural result of hostile relations, as it would be in most other games with a faction system? This would provide immediate feedback on those decisions, allowing a player to course correct if desired, and be far more intuitive all the way around.

I think it would be good enough just adding a diplomatic stage before any expedition initiates, giving you some "kind" warns and let you have a chance to fix it.


Yes, but that doesn't really do anything to address why the AI can seemingly break all the rules of the faction system that the player has learned thus far in the game at will.

I remember the first time I encountered a Hegemony death blob on an invasion run right after I came out of a long battle with some pirates. I was like "Hey, there's a friendly orange fleet coming to help me chase down these pirates, and not a potentially game-ending hostile blob". I didnt even try to run.  Then they attacked me, and I laughed at the explanation which basically boils down to, "This is a special magic fleet that does whatever it wants because reasons".

There are far more crazy non-intuitive explanations and backflips trying to make sense of the current system than there would be simply fit the invasion mechanic into the existing faction relation framework, which already has a system in place for factions becoming hostile to a player based on their actions.  Obviously Alex is looking at a bigger picture than I am, and may have his reasons for the disconnect.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Hiruma Kai on November 28, 2018, 08:06:00 PM
My guess is that currently, these invasion fleets are something to do in the current iteration of the game.  The fundamental core of the game is fighting fleets.  Everything is designed around building up your fleet, then using it to blow stuff up or alternatively on iron man, sometimes getting your fleet blown up.  The way I look at it, the campaign mode is a semi-controlled "mission" generator, and invasion fleets are just another type of mission you can fly a fleet against.

I see all this AI breaking the rules directly in the player's advantage currently, as once you drop into war standing, it is extremely difficult to stop the war state  (hopefully diplomacy mechanics are added/changed).  Not to mention war standing cuts into your profits as you can no longer trade with that faction, and your trade fleets start getting attack by all that factions fleets.  So rather than throw you directly into conflict everywhere with a given faction (or sometimes all factions given how it seems everybody sends an invasion fleet), you get the opportunity to fight some large faction fleets (or let your defenders do so if you so choose).

If at any point you decide you want to start going to blow up the other factions planets and bomb them back to the stone age so they stop attacking you, its completely within your power to do so.  Keeping in mind, given how the economy works, doing so to all factions will drop your credit income greatly.

I agree that the mechanics probably need to be explained better to the player.  I also don't know the future direction the colony phase of the game is going to take, whether more robust diplomacy is planned and so forth, which may have influenced how much time Alex wanted to put into in game tutorials on this phase of the game.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 28, 2018, 11:44:14 PM
With all the focus on the rough edges, I'll just mention that I actually enjoy the pirate invasion event. Getting all your big boats out of storage to hunt down and destroy the offending pirate base is a satisfying bit of payback for the trouble they caused you.  That is something intuitive that I understand.

I just don't enjoy it much when all the various invasion events are happening at the same time.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SCC on November 29, 2018, 02:34:25 AM
It would be good (and far more believable) if, before sending any expedition fleets, the big faction sent the player a polite letter. "Dear Sir/Madam, We notice that you are now a significant producer of commodities including X, Y and Z. Be careful not to produce too much or we won't be responsible for the consequences." (Although the player would need new buttons to comply, since growth is currently automatic.)
I don't think the player should receive straightforward message of "don't do this", but rather have factions annoy you without outright using their military might. Something like Hegemony sending tax collectors, Luddic Church sending their preachers (it would be nice if this had different outcomes, and at least one of them would lead to not having pather cell from the get go), Tri-Tachyon trying to sue you over some inane ***... This could escalate to funding pirates, corsairs and eventually semi-open hostilities, as factions try to prevent others from getting you over to their side. It would also be more natural, as factions wouldn't send expeditions just because, but because you might have legitimately *** them off.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: XazoTak on November 29, 2018, 03:11:39 AM
I just wish it was possible for this kind of stuff to lead to brief hostilities leading to an eventual truce/surrender.
Leaving a trail of broken worlds would be fun, if the sign of defeat was a formal surrender and return to neutrality instead of food procurements.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: TrashMan on November 29, 2018, 03:30:52 AM
I for one wish game taught me what high Hazard rating will do to your wallet few ingame years down the line.

Geez, setting u pa colony in a hostile enviroment that has special and harsh requirements for a colnony to function would lead to expenses? WHO WOULD HAVE THAUGHT THAT?

It's not like excessive vegetation, humidity, acid rains and the like require constant maintainance costs. Air scrubbers and pressured domes are cheap...yep. Living on an inhospitable hellscape is as simple and cheap as living on a terran planet.

NO ONE COUKD HAVE SEEN THAT COMING!
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SCC on November 29, 2018, 03:36:57 AM
The issue is that the first time setting a colony you just don't know how much can you do and how bad effects all these modifiers have. It's not half bad if all you lose is your time and some money, if you can earn it back, but if you lose too much (or let your colony grow) it might put you a couple of hours back in your playthrough, if you don't save scum.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 29, 2018, 05:58:22 AM
With all the focus on the rough edges, I'll just mention that I actually enjoy the pirate invasion event. Getting all your big boats out of storage to hunt down and destroy the offending pirate base is a satisfying bit of payback for the trouble they caused you.  That is something intuitive that I understand.

I just don't enjoy it much when all the various invasion events are happening at the same time.
This.
It currently ~feels~ like colonies are set up and balanced for the post endgame, where the player has done absolutely everything already, explored everything in the sector and has nothing else to do other than sit in his space castle and build giant doomstacks for lols.
That all the AI responses are at this kind of level from the start, and only proceed to escalate is a hell of a trap considering you can get started on colonies before you even get your level into double figures.

Limiting colonies to the late game is one way of 'solving' this mismatch. Although it would be a pretty rubbish way of going about it.
Scaling the 'challenge' to the player's progress would be a much nicer way of doing it.
And as mentioned previously, there definitely needs to be some diplomatic means of managing this. Being to make trade deals would be ideal.

The issue is that the first time setting a colony you just don't know how much can you do and how bad effects all these modifiers have. It's not half bad if all you lose is your time and some money, if you can earn it back, but if you lose too much (or let your colony grow) it might put you a couple of hours back in your playthrough, if you don't save scum.
And this.
The first 'successful' colony I created was on a 175% tundra world. It had plenty of resources, and was far enough away from everyone else I thought it wouldn't be bothered much.
That when I surveyed it it giving me a Class V report was what convinced me to choose it. If it's Class V that means it must be good, right?
Apparently not. It is impossible to make a profit without using either a free port or AI cores, both of which are sources of this comedy aggro.

Not that I was aware of what the %age meant in terms of colony potential.

Are we are limited to settling 100% worlds? If so, that is potentially going to be a problem. I have found a single 100% world in my current sector which is not one of the 'blank' worlds with no resources or conditions.
Is there any other way of allowing less than optimal worlds to become more than failure money sinks?
Perhaps if there were a building specialised in maintenance that could be used to reduce upkeep costs, that way you could trade industry slots for viability.
Or a skill that reduces maint on planets above a certain %? (Seeing as planet skills seem to be considered 'a waste'.)

Like the need for faction diplomacy above to mitigate, or even avoid the invasions. There needs to be some means of increasing efficiency that does not involve using AI.
Simply because not everyone wants "all drama all the the time".
Options are good. If a player wants to be a bloodknight in a fortress surrounded by debris, the game will accomdate that as it stands.
But what if you want to build somewhere 'nice', make friends with the factions, and explore the sector? Basically the colony equivallent of staying independant and never taking a commission.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 29, 2018, 06:13:21 AM

Limiting colonies to the late game is one way of 'solving' this mismatch. Although it would be a pretty rubbish way of going about it.


Indeed. I enjoy the game *considerably* more with my own home base as soon as I can get it, and would no longer enjoy the game without that capacity.  It's definitely a move in the right direction for the game.  Sometimes you just want a place of your own after living under the roof of Ma and Pa Hegemony.

Unfortunately, if you do any decorating the Death Star shows up immediately and glasses you.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on November 29, 2018, 08:22:22 AM
I think planet skills depends on 1) finding great worlds and 2) finding and willing to use alpha cores.  If sector generation does not give you nice convenient system with nice worlds, and you cannot get an alpha core quickly, then planet skills are required.  On the other hand, if you get a great system and/or get extra cores (possibly keeping the one from that mission), then you can get by without them.

Me, I find them very handy if I want to set up a waystation colony so I do not need to spend so much time traveling and exploring the fringe.  If I wanted to go to the red planet without my string of waystations, I probably would need two Prometheus and other stuff.  If somehow along the way, I get an alert that threatens my main colony, I need to stop what I am doing and deal with it, and it is much more convenient to plop down a waystation and get supplies and stuff.

Also, having extra colony slots is nice for temporary tech mining.  Suck them dry for the free items, then abandon colony when finished.

At first, I did not know having multiple colonies in one system was a great way to defend against invasions.  The system with my 175% gas giant had four other planets with 150% rating and decent if not great resources.  I would need to smash the Domain Nav relay and build a makeshift comm relay in its place for all-important stability and convenient intel updates.  On the other hand, tying all of my colony slots in one system means fewer waystation colonies when I want to explore... or set up a military base to launch raids from.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Draba on November 29, 2018, 10:20:57 AM
Didn't say anything about what I prefer, just that a single system with proper defenses will easily eventually fend off attackers by itself.

Corrected  for accuracy.

No need for that, I wrote exactly what I meant.

Once you know what you are doing colonies defend themselves just fine:
- don't start below 300K extra money
- only build mining/farm/techmine(if available) in the first round
- prioritize upgrading orbital/patrol stations the moment previous step finished, they give stability anyway
- pump growth incentives at least until lvl 6 (all the way to 10 when you have the money)
- strat building heavy industry/orbital works when you have at least battlestation and military HQ
- once orbital works/battlestation are done and size is at least 5-6 add light industry/refining, enable free port, add fuel if you have a snychrotron

It might be theoretically possible to get raids that could be stronger but I didn't see a single one in my last playthrough.
Did help in destroying 2 task forces to get conquests.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Typo91 on November 29, 2018, 10:45:32 AM
I dont know if this has been said, and this is already a long thread.... but my 2 cents on this whole issue...

Expeditions in general are just dumb.  Especially from allies. "The Hedgomeny has taken all your AI cores from X"  wtf?!?!?! (I proceeded to commit genocide to all their planets after that one)

We have no way of returning them, or doing the same thing back with our forces. Or really shutting them down. Or even profiting meaningfully when we crush them.

And if we start wiping out the planets sending them, we get hated on for killing planets by everyone. 

I once killed every populated planet in a the core hedgemony system, even the independents (they hated me now anyway).  And fleets of a solo fuel frigate would still attack me to say "hey your transponder is off!" even though I had killed all the fleets and this guy's enter home planet, and all his friends... he is still flying up to me in his fueler, attacking me...

I feel like we should be able to lock systems down or something, or dispatch fleets to wage war, or tell those sons of *** that if they send one more fleet into our space we will bomb them back into the stone age!

Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Wyvern on November 29, 2018, 10:47:28 AM
Didn't say anything about what I prefer, just that a single system with proper defenses will easily eventually fend off attackers by itself.

Corrected  for accuracy.

No need for that, I wrote exactly what I meant.
Then you're wrong - or, at the very least, your experiences do not generalize as well as you think they do.  I did, as it turns out, follow exactly the listing you specified - I was a little bit slow on getting the station up, which led to troubles with a pirate raid, but after that?  Just the tech mine prompted constant expeditions from the major factions.  At size three.  If I hadn't had the credits to buy them off, my colony would have been flattened; it wasn't even -close- to being able to fend off expedition fleets by itself.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Thaago on November 29, 2018, 12:10:20 PM
I mentioned before but I'm not sure if it was in this thread:

I think a BIG help would be to just make the AI faction's economies better (upping their production, giving them administrators, etc) and in turn raising the threshold for when they get *** off by production.

As an example, in my current game I decided to "lie low" on a nice low hazard world that I colonized very early. I didn't have any ore or rare ore, but it had plentiful organics (+1) and the +1 farming so I plopped down mining and farming to give me a bit of income (like 25k). Unfortunately the Organics production started to attract (weak) persean league fleets when the colony size hit 4 (I believe I had an admin skill at this point, so 6 organics outputted). If the Persean League had a better economy and the threshold were higher, this wouldn't have been as much of  problem.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Wyvern on November 29, 2018, 12:21:02 PM
I mentioned before but I'm not sure if it was in this thread:

I think a BIG help would be to just make the AI faction's economies better (upping their production, giving them administrators, etc) and in turn raising the threshold for when they get *** off by production.
Especially I'd like to see this vary by faction.  Like, say, the Hegemony has administrators everywhere with at least one skill, sometimes two, and maybe a few scattered uses of gamma-grade AI cores.  While Tri-Tachyon doesn't have quite so many skilled administrators... but is perfectly happy to use beta-grade AI cores, maybe even a few alpha-grade on their favorite planets.  Sindrian Diktat has a single skilled administrator that handles every planet they control (Because really, the Diktat feels a lot like what a player might build).  Persean League varies by planet; some have nothing, some have administrators and AI cores both.  Independents will use AI cores you give them... and then eventually lose them to a Hegemony inspection fleet.  And so on and so forth.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Draba on November 29, 2018, 12:55:18 PM
Then you're wrong - or, at the very least, your experiences do not generalize as well as you think they do.  I did, as it turns out, follow exactly the listing you specified - I was a little bit slow on getting the station up, which led to troubles with a pirate raid, but after that?  Just the tech mine prompted constant expeditions from the major factions.  At size three.  If I hadn't had the credits to buy them off, my colony would have been flattened; it wasn't even -close- to being able to fend off expedition fleets by itself.

Egg on my face, it is possible to get overwhelmed early.
Sidenote for that scenario is what was mentioned earlier: you can bribe the stronger expeditions if you do not want to babysit.

I mentioned before but I'm not sure if it was in this thread:

I think a BIG help would be to just make the AI faction's economies better (upping their production, giving them administrators, etc) and in turn raising the threshold for when they get *** off by production.

Yep, the core worlds having better output would be a great improvement.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 29, 2018, 01:36:37 PM
Coming at it from the other side, Expeditions are unfair and exploitable in the player's favor as well, once a player knows what to expect.

When prepared for them ( has an orbital battlestation to tank for them), expeditions are easily farmable from very early in the game for high end ships that would be difficult to purchase or capture otherwise without a commission. I went from being a struggling, vulnerable early-mid game fleet to a terrifying end game power virtually overnight once these invasions started. I now have a storage full of Onslaughts, high end midline cruisers, and every flavor of phase ship, all delivered to me by the AI for free, or rather, for a few points of reputation loss for taking part in the battle ( and salvaging whats lying around after).

If only I could figure out how to get Tri Tach angry at me, I'd have almost everything I could want, and the ship pokemon appeal of a SS playthrough would be mostly over for me.


I have no idea how to fix this. Remove valuable ships from expedition fleets, they become toothless. Remove the ability to salvage them, and anger players further by breaking the rules again.



Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on November 29, 2018, 01:41:18 PM
Never mind other factions.  Once you start producing good ships and weapons of your own, you can loot stuff from the remains of your own faction and get free stuff that way too instead of paying for production costs.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SCC on November 29, 2018, 01:43:16 PM
If only I could figure out how to get Tri Tach angry at me, I'd have almost everything I could want, and the ship pokemon appeal of a SS playthrough would be mostly over for me.
They once went after me because of... ore. Only once, though. They're rarer than Luddic Church expeditions!
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 29, 2018, 01:44:09 PM
Never mind other factions.  Once you start producing good ships and weapons of your own, you can loot stuff from the remains of your own faction and get free stuff that way too instead of paying for production costs.

I'll assume this was directed at me. Producing good ships and weapons of my own is dependent on blueprints. I dont have any of the blueprints for the ships the AI is giving me for free. Now I dont need them.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 29, 2018, 07:12:54 PM
If only I could figure out how to get Tri Tach angry at me, I'd have almost everything I could want, and the ship pokemon appeal of a SS playthrough would be mostly over for me.
They once went after me because of... ore. Only once, though. They're rarer than Luddic Church expeditions!

One just popped. They're enraged by my meager market share of...domestic goods.  Hi tech superpower furious over blue jeans and throw rugs.

Looks like Christmas is coming early!
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Vind on November 29, 2018, 07:36:53 PM
It seems real production of colony is not matters. Created 3 poor colonies with 1-2 exports each - got 2 expeditions once they hit level 4. So it is all or nothing if you go in and colonize - prepare to defend from 2 expeditions. As you cant really explore once colony is created question arises - why create colony at all? If you have already explored and got all techs and cores it is no longer needed and if you created it early it is useless and you got no time to seek blueprints and improve it. It is a trap without purpose - by the time i can manufacture paragon i got 5-7 captured in storage. Expeditions must have some real reason to attack - persean league attacked after my starting colony got 2% market share of metals - yeah right - real profit. So now im basically sit is system and whack all "guests" without pause as once i leave game will create new threat and so on. Talk about wasting time. Simply trading drugs is less hassle and more profit. In short low-tech low-output colony is unsustainable as it cant defend by itself or be ignored by sector core powers and this is very bad.

Interesting bit - independent mercenaries  will help you defend station vs expedition.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: The Ender on November 29, 2018, 07:47:35 PM
My 5 cents on this:

I agree that they are not fun; either I work towards a game state where they are completely invaidated (...so what is the point of them?) due to concentrated overlapping system defenses, or I don't do that and end-up babysitting when I want to be exploring. Repetitive fights that yield no meaningful rewards against forces that aren't a challenge but are a nuisance isn't, IMHO, a great game experience. It also doesn't feel immersive (where are the hostile factions getting all of these apparently completely disposable battleships? Why are they throwing them in futile waves against impregnable defenses? Why can't I issue ultimatums or sign treaties after stomping what are clearly premiere combat fleets? These people are all completely fearless fanatics?), and I don't understand the play space these encounters are supposed to be filiing. If I want a lot of combat, the bounties are right there on the Intel tab - I thought the new industry & colonization systems were supposed to create a Starsector experience for players more interesting in building / exploring?

If the point of them is to encourage me to create a game state where they are invalidated, then they are (as implemented) flying in the face of the Starsector principle that there should never be just one answer to a given problem (by pretty severely restricts how a player ought to develop their colonies).
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Reinhark on November 29, 2018, 07:59:17 PM
If only I could figure out how to get Tri Tach angry at me, I'd have almost everything I could want, and the ship pokemon appeal of a SS playthrough would be mostly over for me.
They once went after me because of... ore. Only once, though. They're rarer than Luddic Church expeditions!

One just popped. They're enraged by my meager market share of...domestic goods.  Hi tech superpower furious over blue jeans and throw rugs.

Looks like Christmas is coming early!

TT has a single, highly profitable light industry in Eochu Bres(due to free port status). So most light industry product: Drugs, domestic goods and luxury have pretty good chance of triggering them.
Alternatively, Ores(...Yes, they have sent paragons for space rocks that are literally everywhere)
TT is highest exporter of Ores by tiny margin compared to other factions.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Goumindong on November 29, 2018, 08:21:57 PM
I think part of the problem is that people do not realize that building industry and accessibility will get you on someone’s *** list.

You can generally avoid expeditions (besides pirates) by simply accepting a low profit and growth. A low hazard planet will produce minor profits with no industry and minor to significant defenses.

If you keep accessibility low (~50% or lower) you can even produce reasonable quantities and be safe because you’re not exporting enough to be a problem
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: experiencedickerson on November 30, 2018, 01:04:52 AM
I had one game so far with the new patch. Playing a spacer start with self imposed no commissions restriction, my fleet was slightly underpowered to deal with the pirate invasion fleet that came unexpectedly early. iirc pirate fleets don't have a capability rating like a normal faction expedition but they sent a weak armada. I had to quickly go and buy up a couple of frigs and a destroyer that were in a neighboring black market to beef up my fleet and met them nearby some of my faction patrols. lost a few ships but we managed to hold them off. Next expedition i was able to bribe off for 100k. By the third expedition my defenses have been able to take care of everything with ease. If something was to be changed, i would like to see a way to set default response to AI inspection in faction doctrine ex. 1st time bribe 100k, second time resist.  
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Schwartz on November 30, 2018, 01:53:54 AM
I think part of the problem is that people do not realize that building industry and accessibility will get you on someone’s *** list.

You can generally avoid expeditions (besides pirates) by simply accepting a low profit and growth. A low hazard planet will produce minor profits with no industry and minor to significant defenses.

If you keep accessibility low (~50% or lower) you can even produce reasonable quantities and be safe because you’re not exporting enough to be a problem

I'm just quoting this for emphasis. It makes sense. If you're trying to play with the big boys, they're gonna *** on you. In that light, keeping low-profit colonies and letting them grow before you expand seems like a reasonable choice.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Serenitis on November 30, 2018, 02:22:31 AM
If you're trying to play with the big boys
They're not very big if a months old size 3 world in the arse-end of nowhere can take ~30% of the market share of anything just by existing.

I don't know about anyone else, but one of the primary reasons I want a colony at all is to produce supplies and fuel that I can use in a convenient location that does not require that I travel back into the core. And just doing that alone is enough trigger this nonsense.

Hell, the very first world I colonised got roflstomped just for having active tech mining.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: StarGibbon on November 30, 2018, 02:30:21 AM
I think part of the problem is that people do not realize that building industry and accessibility will get you on someone’s *** list.

You can generally avoid expeditions (besides pirates) by simply accepting a low profit and growth. A low hazard planet will produce minor profits with no industry and minor to significant defenses.

If you keep accessibility low (~50% or lower) you can even produce reasonable quantities and be safe because you’re not exporting enough to be a problem

I'm just quoting this for emphasis. It makes sense. If you're trying to play with the big boys, they're gonna *** on you. In that light, keeping low-profit colonies and letting them grow before you expand seems like a reasonable choice.

It may make a *certain* amount of sense from one point of view (while breaking the rules of the faction relations system the player has already learned in the game), but it also runs contrary to decades of game convention wherein players doing similar colony building things, in similar looking screen interfaces, are rewarded by growing their colonies and buying add-ons when they can afford them.

If you're going to fly in the face of convention (for instance, choosing to use something other than WASD keyboard movement in your PC game), you better have a *really* good reason reason for doing it, and an aggressively transparent instruction system. I don't think the game has either at present.

Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: code99 on November 30, 2018, 03:19:19 AM
If you're trying to play with the big boys
They're not very big if a months old size 3 world in the arse-end of nowhere can take ~30% of the market share of anything just by existing.

I don't know about anyone else, but one of the primary reasons I want a colony at all is to produce supplies and fuel that I can use in a convenient location that does not require that I travel back into the core. And just doing that alone is enough trigger this nonsense.

Hell, the very first world I colonised got roflstomped just for having active tech mining.


^This

I find this whole expedition thing quite nonsensical. I dont want colonies to be free money with 0 risk for the player but surely a better system can be thought up instead of these annoying punitive expeditions that make no sense from any point of view (especially economical points of view ... magic is used i guess)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Schwartz on November 30, 2018, 03:27:44 AM
Yup. If the player can corner a market this easily, then the NPC market needs strengthening. I think no one will disagree that faction planets are underpowered.

A consequence of this might be that stronger markets will be less paranoid about sending fleets your way, since player colonies will have less of an impact.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: TaLaR on November 30, 2018, 03:35:23 AM
Yup. If the player can corner a market this easily, then the NPC market needs strengthening. I think no one will disagree that faction planets are underpowered.

A consequence of this might be that stronger markets will be less paranoid about sending fleets your way, since player colonies will have less of an impact.

Though upkeep will need to be reduced too. Currently it is balanced for grabbing large part of global market.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 09, 2019, 04:54:19 AM
Hello everybody.
I recently started playing this game and found it very addictive and interesting.
For a long time, I planned and saved money to create my own colony.
I wanted to have a colony so that I can build my ships according to the blueprints I found, as well as for trade and construction of my own infrastructure.
I constantly carried out missions of various factions and even pirates, and accumulated funds. As a result, I accumulated a good reputation, 700K credits and created my first colony, in a remote system, on a planet with a 150% hazard level(could not find lower than 150%).
I invested all the money in the infrastructure, built a light and heavy industry, but did not forget to build a lvl-2 Hi-Tech Battlestation and heavy ground batteries. I built all this defenses, thinking that it would reliably protect the system from pirates, who almost immediately began sending their raids. I built a Patrol HQ, upgraded it to lvl 2, and patrols began to fly around the system. Everything would be fine, but after a couple of months HELL began...
Hegemony and Diktat sent giant navy, against which there was no chance.
I managed to defeat the fleet of Hegemony by participating in the battle along with my Battlestation, but at the same time I lost 2/3 of my so hard assembled fleet, than paid a loss of reputation with Hegemony.
In my fleet there was one light cruiser, 3 frigates and two small aircraft carriers.
But against the Dictate fleet nothing stood...
There were some 4 giant capital ships + a bunch of smaller destroyers and cruisers. My Battlestation was destroyed and the fleet was defeated...
I didn’t have 200k to bribe these expeditions, but even if I used it, how much time would I have enough money to restrain these raids?
My colony had a net profit of about 80k per month before the invasion.
Hegemony and Dictat did not like the open market and my production of transplutonium, although my market global share was only 4%.
This is really unfair and discourages the desire to build colonies.
From previous forum posts, I realized that even simple fuel production would cause punitive expeditions.
So what should I do? Colonies without markets and production(which bring punishers) will not give profit, and wandering around the galaxy on assignments of other factions all the time is also boring.
What is your algorithm to build a colony and survive?

 
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 09, 2019, 05:53:37 AM
When starting out with your first colony...

Build an orbital station as soon as possible, ideally after Spaceport
If major factions do not send expeditions at you, pirates will be sent instead, and they come fairly early.  Their raids are not as powerful as expeditions from major factions, but you need the station to have a chance to defeat their raids without your direct intervention.  If you need a waystation before the orbital station, that is fine (you want to be able to restock on crew, supplies, and fuel), but you probably need to defend against that first raid personally.

Build Patrol HQ early
You need a patrol or two to reclaim relays that got stolen periodically by enemies.  This does not need to be built immediately, but it is annoying going back yourself to reclaim relays and your stability.

Do NOT use Free Port early
1) It aggravates Luddic Church and Hegemony to send expeditions at you.  They do not send expeditions if you do not have Free Port on.  That leaves Diktat, League, and Tri-Tachyon sending expeditions at you for producing too much, if pirates do not raid.
2) It makes expeditions more frequent.
3) It lowers stability, which you probably have not stacked up high.
4) It does not increase income enough until you start producing organs (at size 6) and you can maintain 10 stability even with -3 penalty.  Free Port is very useful for population growth too, but until you can defend against expeditions, colony growing faster than your fleet or capability to deal with is not a good idea.

Do NOT use Growth Incentives early
Growing colony fast sounds nice, until that expedition you cannot deal with because you could not build up or upgrade your fleet and colony defenses fast enough wrecks everything.  Colony growth increases production, which is the last thing you want when trying to keep a low enough profile to avoid their attention.  Once you can deal with expeditions, then crank it as high as you can afford, but not before then.

Do NOT use industries that produce too much of a given commodity
Any amount from Fuel Production or Heavy Industry will aggravate Diktat or League.  I think Light Industry might aggravate early as well.  The only safe industries early that can produce stuff for money are Farming, Tech Mining (via loot), and maybe Mining.  Mining will aggravate Tri-Tachyon if too much (rare) ore is produced.  Stuff like ultrarich ores, Industrial Planning, or colony growth can put ore production over the top.  By size 5, your colony might be too big to limit production enough, and you need to be ready to deal with expeditions.  Once you decide you are ready enough for expeditions, then get Industrial Planning and build Heavy Industry and those other vital jackpot industries.

Do NOT take Industrial Planning 2 early
The perk that increases production commodities by one, which is useful for meeting demand and increasing profits, might make you produce too much stuff (see above) and attract expeditions.  Use administrators for Industrial Planning if you must, but do not get the skill yourself until you are ready to deal with expeditions from majors.

Pather Cells are bugged and are mostly harmless
As long as colony stability is 2 or higher, all attempts at sabotage will fail.  The worst they can do is a permanent -1 stability if you do not seek out and destroy Pather bases.  This will be fixed next release, but that is months or longer down the line.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 09, 2019, 07:03:51 AM
Megas, thank you very much for this helpful reply!
I almost wanted to start the new game, but I found that i can disassemble my industries for 75% return or remove the administrator. My admin has level 3.
Now i will try to turn into a quiet agrarian planet, so as not to anger this mafia.

On the other hand, there is another question:
What kind of defenses in the system will enough to deal with any expeditions, without a player's babysitting?
In my case High Command patrol HQ and Hi-Tec Battlestation could not resist.
Upgrade to 1.000.000 credits Star fortress will solve all the cases?
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 09, 2019, 07:23:22 AM
You need at least one High Command per system, but ideally, you want two or more per system.  That said, three or more can slow down old computers due to lots of fleets crawling around.  I probably would use two per system (at least High Command and Military Base, if not two High Commands) if I can as a compromise between enough patrols and framerate for my old computer, assuming enough planets in the system.  With Free Port on, you probably want either Commerce or Military Base/High Command just for the stability bonus.  (Both having both will hurt income too much.)  For spare planets with plenty of bases in the same system, Patrol HQ does not hurt.

For ground defenses.  Short answer, you need to stack everything, including Planetary Shield from the Red Planet, to get enough ground defenses.  You do not need the Planetary Operations skill, but it might help get enough up sooner until you get Planetary Shield.  Of course, this is moot if you rely on a Star Fortress for stability (and you will if you use Free Port unless you have bonus stability from Planetary Operations or unused personal colony slots) because you do not want that to go down ever.  Ground defense is the last line of defense if they blow through your patrols and Star Fortress goes down.

Keep in mind that battlestations and star fortresses are expensive and require high commodities.  Earliest you can support Battlestation in-faction with Industrial Planning is size 4, and Star Fortress needs size 6.  (You can build sooner if you do not mind relying on cross-faction imports.)  But do upgrade those stations as soon as you can afford and support it.  You need that stability bonus if you rely on Free Port, and more advanced expeditions will not have much trouble breaking lower-tiered stations if they penetrate your patrol screen.

P.S.  Early, if you avoid expeditions, then all you really need to repel pirates only is an orbital station and patrol HQ, provided you destroy pirate bases targeting your colony as soon as they target you.  They will grow bigger if left alone, but as long as you clean up pirates regularly, they will not be much of a problem.  Once major factions start targeting you, you need much more.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 09, 2019, 07:51:15 AM
One last tip:  Selling blueprints of powerful combat ships (and maybe weapons too) at Black Markets will upgrade pirate fleets.  Pirates will learn those blueprints.  (Note, pirates will only learn new blueprints if you sell blueprints yourself at a black market.  They will not learn new blueprints any other way in a no-mod game.)  There was one topic recently where someone sold a Paragon blueprint found early at Black Market to jump-start his game, and pirates are using Paragons against him!
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Lucky33 on June 09, 2019, 08:44:11 AM
This is really unfair and discourages the desire to build colonies.

This is a perfect illustration to the eternal "why the factions dont colonize" question.

What is your algorithm to build a colony and survive?

Its pretty simple. Buy Dram. Take several recon missions and make several 100K. If you are lucky you'll find a decent ship (capital or heavy carriers) in the markets. If you're completely out of luck just buy Falcon (P) and grab couple of frigates as escorts. Do some bounties and level up. Spend some time this way and sooner or later you will be able either to claim some disabled ship which will be of use or you will find them on the market (ignore anything lighter than cruiser-carrier). Just stuck to the Top region of the Core worlds (Thule-Mayasura). There is an abandoned storage near Mairaath in Mayasura and Kazeron in Thule is the top notch military market. Also dont forget to visit Askonia. Remember to not hesitate to buy even D moded capitals and heavy carriers (black market is fine too). After that you will snowball through bounty hunting. In no time you will get decent battlegroup, high level and 7 digit number of credits.

Check nearby constellations with red beacons and find yourself a suitable system for the colonization. If you dont have Nanoforge at this point... well... go and do some exploring. And quests. Before colonizing.

At this point you can finally settle down. There is no challenge left anyway.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: lethargie on June 09, 2019, 09:38:15 AM
As lucky pointed out, his advice are not very good if you want to enjoy colony.

My advice would be start by exploring, do the scan derelict/survey world etc mission. Develop a fleet that can survey well by using surveying equipment but try to keep upkeep to a minimum. You should come across nice systems. Try to grab one with a low difficulty planet, couple extra planet and a space for a com relay. Build nothing more than a waystation and maybe a space station.

Stockpile all the weapons/millitary hulls you can on this world. Explore all the sector around your new base where you can restock on fuel/supply. Kill some bounties. Start building farming if you can, or mining. Colonize the other planets of your system.

Try not to build your heavy industry too late, that way you can start producing ships before you really grab the attention of the big factions.

Plan your perfect 30 ship armada and lay waste to the sector (peacefully of cource, we aint savages)
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 09, 2019, 10:13:55 AM
I actually started my colony very late in my last game, and I think I will start it earlier in my next, but it worked well in terms of defense since I already had a capital ship and plenty of funds when I started it. I had enough to build all the defenses immediately and IIRC, the first raid got killed by remnant forces that I hadn't cleared out yet (funny, but maybe even a viable strategy?) I was also able to max growth the entire time and was  still able to get top tier defenses on line before faction raids started. I started on a 50 hazard world with farming and organics as the main income though so, that definitely effected how early the factions got angry. Having the income earlier would have been nice though, I was losing 40k per month in expenses when I finally founded the colony. I think timing the first colony with the end of the stipend (or at least the point where the stipend is ramping down and your expenses are going up) is probably the best course of action.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 09, 2019, 10:16:05 AM
People, thank you very much for so helpful advices!
I found on one of the space stations, some kind of unemployed admin, without any skills.
I put him in control of the colony and canceled the free market. As a result, with such management, my planet dropped to the level of 16k monthly profit, 44% accessibility and 0.7% pop growth . Exports have become minimal. I hope that this does not cause the visit of the big evil guys again.
And I will travel freely and find useful things further. Thank you all for the helpful tips, I will try your hints.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 09, 2019, 11:00:16 AM
In my 0.9.1a games, I started colonies early, around mid-game, just so I would not lose money per month for all of the personnel I bring along, and for a convenience place to store stuff.  (Abandoned stations are not convenient if I need to store too much, then come back and haul it off later.)  Long before I could handle expeditions of any kind.  Early colonies are feasible if you avoid attracting expeditions.

Colonies are also handy as a base to operate from when I explore further into the fringe, although by that time, I dedicate much time taking out pirates attacking core worlds.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 18, 2019, 06:30:10 AM
I managed to colonize second planet in the same star system, and i decided temporarily turn on the Open Market on it, for population growth.
After a few months i got an Luddic Church expedition for it.
But my patrols won a battle with them without my intervention.
What is strange, it still lowered the relationship by 5 points.   
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2019, 06:44:38 AM
Failed expeditions will always inflict -5 rep now.  Last release, you took the rep hit per battle if you fought personally, but not if your patrols do it for you.  Now, you take no rep hit for battling, only once after the expedition fails.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 18, 2019, 08:27:13 AM
I do not know what the frequency of these expeditions will be in my system, but if I have good defenses and patrols, then I risk damaging my reputation, when i defeat them, and this will ruin interstellar trade with other factions. So, whether I interfere in a fight or not, I will lose my reputation if I win.
Probably i will use the third option: Sit quietly and poor with closed markets, do missions, accumulate funds and wait a very long time until the population grows.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2019, 10:07:43 AM
Let pirates raid a system belonging to a faction you want to raise rep with.  System bounty will likely be posted, then clean up the pirates to gain lots of rep (and some money) fast.

Once Free Port is on, expeditions are frequent, and rep will be nickel-and-dimed away if nothing else is done.  The easiest way to raise rep is system bounties.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: SolarWind on June 18, 2019, 12:54:27 PM
Let pirates raid a system belonging to a faction you want to raise rep with.  System bounty will likely be posted, then clean up the pirates to gain lots of rep (and some money) fast.

Once Free Port is on, expeditions are frequent, and rep will be nickel-and-dimed away if nothing else is done.  The easiest way to raise rep is system bounties.
Megas, thanks you for the good tip. It will help me! Previously, I have never performed missions to clean up systems from pirates, since the rewards were low: something like 1,400 cred per frigate.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: RedHellion on June 18, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
Megas, thanks you for the good tip. It will help me! Previously, I have never performed missions to clean up systems from pirates, since the rewards were low: something like 1,400 cred per frigate.

If the system is actually getting raided and there are big enough pirate fleets, you can make some decent money from system bounties. 1400 per frigate may not sound like much, but that's also 2800 per destroyer, 5600 per cruiser, and 11200 per capital (assuming each size class simply scales the bounty by *2). If it's mid-late game and the pirates are active enough in the system or still had some raiding parties there, you can make a pretty easy 50k+ without having to spend the usual amount of fuel to leave the core systems for "personal" bounties.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Thaago on June 18, 2019, 01:56:38 PM
I can attest to this - I was making a fuel run and saw a big pirate fleet about to attack a Hegemony station. Took it out for the supplies and to protect this convenient fuel depot, got a cool 85k as a bonus from the system bounty.

Its not a huge amount of money, and a lot less than what I could make from a named bounty of the same size, but I didn't have to do any travel for it at all, which was a big time and supply saver.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: outdated on June 18, 2019, 01:58:49 PM
If the system is actually getting raided and there are big enough pirate fleets, you can make some decent money from system bounties. 1400 per frigate may not sound like much, but that's also 2800 per destroyer, 5600 per cruiser, and 11200 per capital (assuming each size class simply scales the bounty by *2). If it's mid-late game and the pirates are active enough in the system or still had some raiding parties there, you can make a pretty easy 50k+ without having to spend the usual amount of fuel to leave the core systems for "personal" bounties.

I wouldn't call those 50k+ "easy", i would call them tedious. It's time consuming and isn't very fun, just like squishing an annoying mosquito that found it's way into your bedroom is just a pure annoyance.


A thing that bothers me is all those people saying "just build high command on every colony as early as possible".
That's just taking away one of my precious industry slots
There is no alternative besides tediously babysitting your colony 24/7
It strikingly contradicts the description of it, which talks about projecting power across the sector or something along those lines.

I think many problems could be solved if you had more control over your faction's fleet. Even something simple like adding a dialogue option to make your faction's fleet follow you, or making it possible to concentrate fleets from multiple systems in one place.

Also, it feels really illogical that core factions have resources to throw fleet after fleet at your system that's just a few LY away from the core, but can't be bothered to claim those ultrarich planets adjacent to the core for themselves. They can't deal with pirate bases that directly attack their worlds and disrupt production for the better part of a year, but continuously throwing resources at the player? Yes, please!

I see people claim that the sector is supposed to be falling apart, and maybe it's written in the lore, but from the game it surely doesn't feel like it. Planets don't change hands, factions start and end wars every few months and never suffer any consequences.

I'm not sure if my ramblings are making much sense, so here's the TLDR:
The player is the only moving part of the world and I can't help but feel like that's wrong.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: RedHellion on June 18, 2019, 02:09:40 PM
I wouldn't call those 50k+ "easy", i would call them tedious. It's time consuming and isn't very fun, just like squishing an annoying mosquito that found it's way into your bedroom is just a pure annoyance.

My point was that, if you're already in the area it's an easy way to make money. You can obviously make more doing the named personal bounties, and it's obviously not as fun as going out and doing something more challenging (and thus more fun) like taking on [REDACTED] or stations or multi-cap-ship bounties, but system bounties are conveniently located inside civilized space and can actually provide a decent amount of credits beyond what the "1400 per frigate" may suggest.

I wasn't implying that the player should ignore named personal bounties and just fly around doing system bounties, auto-resolving against every 6-frigate pirate fleet in the system. Although, as Megas pointed out, that is a good way to raise rep with a faction since you get a rep bonus for every ship/fleet destroyed to go with the per-ship bounty (and you get the rep bonus even if the bounty-placing faction is too hostile to pay you bounty money).
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: outdated on June 18, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
I wasn't implying that the player should ignore named personal bounties and just fly around doing system bounties, auto-resolving against every 6-frigate pirate fleet in the system.
The context seemed to imply like that's the solution to the reputation hit from expeditions.

Anyways, the point is that it feels like many on this forum seem to view colonies as after-game thing. Basically a "send endless waves of enemies at me" button. Which it pretty much is, currently, and I don't find that to be particularly enjoyable, especially since I don't view combat as the main attraction.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Megas on June 18, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
Quote
The context seemed to imply like that's the solution to the reputation hit from expeditions.
That is the easiest solution.  Never said it was great or fun.  It beats getting +3 rep from personal bounty, or +5 or so rep from doing an exploration mission.  This is, if you need to build up a bunch of rep fast so that you have a buffer from the inevitable rep drops, system bounties are the way to go.  It can also generate a ton of money comparable to an endgame bounty if you can smash about a dozen or so fleets, although earning money that way is not the main goal.  Also, the systems patrols may be distracted and it may be a great opportunity to stealth raid their heavy industry world yourself for blueprints.  One time, I had almost zero rep with Diktat.  Then Askonia had a system bounty.  I rushed over there to kill pirates near Umbra.  On the way to Umbra, I raided Sindria for a blueprint when I noticed patrols were away.  After sweeping up pirates at Umbra, I went back to Sindria to raid it again for another blueprint.  After I left, I had about 50 rep, lots of money, and two more rare blueprints.

Quote
Anyways, the point is that it feels like many on this forum seem to view colonies as after-game thing. Basically a "send endless waves of enemies at me" button. Which it pretty much is, currently, and I don't find that to be particularly enjoyable, especially since I don't view combat as the main attraction.
I can understand that.  It really gets bad once Free Port gets turned on, and it piles on top of the endless pirate raid spam core worlds are helpless against.  By the time I am powerful enough to properly defend a colony from major factions' expeditions which can be as powerful as 350k+ bounties (i.e., multi-capital spam), I have effectively won the game.  It does not take much to attract expeditions.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Eji1700 on June 18, 2019, 03:33:06 PM
I can attest to this - I was making a fuel run and saw a big pirate fleet about to attack a Hegemony station. Took it out for the supplies and to protect this convenient fuel depot, got a cool 85k as a bonus from the system bounty.

Its not a huge amount of money, and a lot less than what I could make from a named bounty of the same size, but I didn't have to do any travel for it at all, which was a big time and supply saver.
I feel one of the odd issues with all this, although it makes sense, is you've really got to annihilate the fleet or else repair costs can eat into you hard.  You still get some rep i guess and it's fun to fight pirate fleets, but I was farming bounties early and barely breaking even just because I couldn't quite slaughter them.
Title: Re: Colony Expeditions are Unfair and Unfun
Post by: Thaago on June 19, 2019, 11:27:45 AM
I usually take along a bunch of Shepherds early game to help with that - not only are the drones decent cover against early pirates at very low deployment cost, but the salvage gantry increases supplies recovered. Even just a few can tip the balance and make bounties drop more supplies than they cost.

But I agree, the better the player can do in terms of not taking damage and (especially!) going over PPT, the more profitable fights are.