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Starsector => Suggestions => Topic started by: Gwyvern on October 31, 2018, 08:20:01 PM

Title: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Gwyvern on October 31, 2018, 08:20:01 PM
Hey so when talking amongst my peers it seems the general consensus is that late game, frigates and even destroyers don't really see much usage, as fleets shift toward more and more capital ships as they become available.

I personally try to avoid this actively as I find all or even mostly capital fleets to be boring, but I think there are several legitimate reasons for this trend.

-Capital ships, while carrying hefty up-front cost, are actually more efficient per-ton than smaller ships.

-Late game economics makes the entry fee to using capitals negligible, and while generally slower, capitals carry more guns, more armor, more hull, and more fighters per supply/month than any other class of ship in the
game, in fact, the same can be said for cruisers compared to destroyers/frigates, and destroyers compared to frigates.

- Capital ships can last far longer in combat than anything else.

- The CR and PPT mechanics work together to make sure that battles keep moving, and don't grind to a standstill where smaller, lighter ships endlessly poke at larger ones for hours on end, unable to be countered until the larger ship dies. For obvious reasons, this is good, but it also has led to a situation to where deploying frigates and destroyers to large battles makes little sense as they will usually start running out of PPT long before the capital ships have even reached their mid-game

What I'm proposing doesn't exactly address everything that makes smaller ships a questionable choice late game, but I do think it will help one of the bigger bullet points.

Allow smaller ships to receive an in-combat bonus to PPT when they are supporting larger ships

Similar to how PPT doesn't tick down if there are insufficient enemies nearby, implement some sort of system by which PPT will tick down slower if there are sufficient allies of a greater hull size nearby.

I really don't know the specifics of how this would be set up, but I can at least imagine it probably shouldn't apply if you're running an all-frigates fleet or are flying one destroyer in a frigate swarm, basically the overarcing goal would be to encourage mixed fleets consisting of both large and small ships that the player can fit for whatever roll they think they would best serve, instead of the current reality whereby frigates and destroyers are mostly relegated to chasing down smaller, fleeing fleets because in large battles they are outgunned on all fronts, have no staying power, and are generally more expensive to operate in large numbers in the long-term compared to bigger hull sizes.

Also just a pre-emptive clarification: PPT affecting hull-mods aren't a solution because by necessity they will require OP and thus make any build weaker. While larger ships don't need to spend OP on just remaining viable and can instead only take such hullmods if their specific build benefits from it. They also arguably don't do enough for frigates in particular to really matter.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SafariJohn on October 31, 2018, 09:02:08 PM
I like this idea. Now how to actually do it...
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2018, 09:03:00 PM
Hmm. So this is interesting, but I think there are a couple of things working against that.

One is that PPT is an important limiting factor for SO and phase ships. Anything that substantially increases it is likely to make those completely out of control power-wise.

The other is that PPT is one of many factors that make frigates less desirable as battles scale up. One could make an argument that *specialist* frigates have a hard time keeping up PPT-wise and could use a longevity buff, but other frigates just lose effectiveness before PPT is an issue.

Also, larger battles generally gravitating towards larger ships is good for performance - lots of small ships are more intensive than similar firepower on fewer larger ships - so, well. It's definitely something to consider; balance changes that make large numbers of frigates desirable in larger battles would have a large impact on performance.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on October 31, 2018, 09:19:35 PM
PPT is not the only reason for frigates (outside of player-piloted elites) being unviable lategame - other ones are fleet size limitation and officers count.
There was a proposal to let officers command up to several ships depending on size (like 4 frigates - 2 DE - single Capital, or any mix of sizes that sums to 4)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: MesoTroniK on October 31, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
Part of the problem is that say a 40 logistics cap ship is *far* more powerful than two cruisers for a similar cost to run!

Bold suggestion... Maybe capships should be *far* more expensive to run? Where even a humble battlecruiser would be like 60, and battleships and capital carriers 70 to 80? It would also fit lore better, how capships are supposedly a rather large investment where right now they are actually *** easy to spam.

Making them around 50% more expensive to keep in a fleet would make smaller ships more viable in general, and also directly make doing capship spam fleets in the late game where so many players run virtually nothing but them much harder to do, while not requiring any fancy new mechanics either... Though not saying such new mechanics should not be considered.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Gwyvern on October 31, 2018, 09:29:49 PM
There *are* numerous reasons that frigates aren't too viable late game, and to some extent even destroyers, and on rare occasions cruisers aren't even immune. I just think PPT is one of the bigger ones, And yeah Alex makes some very solid points on how if not properly considered this could lead to some builds being broken, but overall the goal is to encourage mixed fleet comps, consisting of capitals, cruisers, destroyers, and frigates for certain roles, not to open the gate for frigate swarm tactics in late game, as that is just as one-dimensional as all-capital fleets.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SafariJohn on October 31, 2018, 09:32:12 PM
One is that PPT is an important limiting factor for SO and phase ships. Anything that substantially increases it is likely to make those completely out of control power-wise.

Then exclude SO ships, and exclude phase ships while phased. That would make it a moderate nerf for them.


Here's my take, assuming frigates lasting (up to) as long as capitals is a reasonable goal to start with:

Ships lose less peak time per second when near larger ships that have more peak time than them. 2/3 of a second per second for one size up, 1/2 for two sizes, 1/3 for three sizes.


As mentioned, officers, firepower concentration, and other factors already make larger ships superior, so I don't think allowing frigates and destroyers to last as long as larger classes would be an overbearing change.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: MesoTroniK on October 31, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
I am being clear, I am not saying new mechanics should not be considered... I just have no idea how they should work.

But what I am saying is the jump between cruisers and capships is *far* larger than between destroyers and cruisers, and frigates and destroyers. I am not just counting combat power, but also cost to run as well. The smaller classes can often trade favorably in combat using the two of the size down can take the one size up rule. But capships? Throw that out the window and can munch fleets for the cost of two cruisers (and so many players run *nothing* but capship spam fleets as well)... It is broken, so at the least making them less trivial to run would go a decent way to correcting the issue but yea more should at least be considered as well.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 31, 2018, 09:46:18 PM
I'd suggest positive design, like making mixing in smaller ships with a larger fleet have some profound inherent value beyond just being cheaper.  The fact that they can capture points quickly isn't really enough for this, since the bonuses are not always large enough to deal with the micromanagement of keeping a forward force of frigates alive.

I think the closest thing to a solution that has been said so far is allowing officers to affect bonuses upon smaller ships.  If an officer of sufficient level is in charge of a capital ship, he might be able to extend his benefits to a cruiser, or a pair of destroyers, or three frigates.  If all of your ships are capital ships, you won't receive the maximum possible benefit from your officers; at a bare minimum, you'd need to pair each capital ship with a cruiser.

Note that due to the implied overall power increase larger ships offer to the fleet with these mechanics, each tier up should be more expensive to compensate.  It would improve the progression curve of the build-up-your-fleet portion of the game, I feel.

Edit: ANOTHER POINT: Cruisers span recovery costs of 15-30, not even counting the Doom, and are the most diverse class of ship in the game.  Capital ships need not have as many total ships to offer, but they should span a similar breadth.  40-80 recovery cost would not be an out-of-place range for them.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Gwyvern on October 31, 2018, 09:56:05 PM
I'd suggest positive design, like making mixing in smaller ships with a larger fleet have some profound inherent value beyond just being cheaper.  The fact that they can capture points quickly isn't really enough for this, since the bonuses are not always large enough to deal with the micromanagement of keeping a forward force of frigates alive.

I think the closest thing to a solution that has been said so far is allowing officers to affect bonuses upon smaller ships.  If an officer of sufficient level is in charge of a capital ship, he might be able to extend his benefits to a cruiser, or a pair of destroyers, or three frigates.  If all of your ships are capital ships, you won't receive the maximum possible benefit from your officers; at a bare minimum, you'd need to pair each capital ship with a cruiser.

Note that due to the implied overall power increase larger ships offer to the fleet with these mechanics, each tier up should be more expensive to compensate.  It would improve the progression curve of the build-up-your-fleet portion of the game, I feel.

I replied to this before it was edited stating I liked the idea and pointing out some missing pieces of it but then you filled in the missing pieces, this idea is great but I'm still not certain it would totally fix the problems, as frigates still have far too little staying power in large fights.

But with such changes? maybe they wont need it.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Astraltor on October 31, 2018, 10:06:10 PM
as it stands frigates just camp the zone where
1. the capitals guns can't reach them
2. the frigate performance is affected by enemy prsence
3. the frigate can't reach the capital

so they just kinda float around until CR hits zero and either retreat or die

outranged, out gunned, out tanked, out system'd even, 10 frigates to a capital

of course you can stick SO on a frigate and hope they get in range in which case they'll just
1. die
2. take massive damage
3. live and now they're down 1/2 their PPT for a single attack run where they flung maybe 500 damage
4. oh you put missiles on the frigate? better hope the whole volley of 1 or 5 missiles doesn't get caught by shields/PD

the AI also isn't smart enough to actively utilize flanking, which is what multiple ships are good for. exploiting blind spots and weak points in enemy ships/formations. which, in larger battles, are easier to cover (i.e., multiple ships parallel helps nullify aft aft blind spot)

What would I like to see?

1. Smarter "tactical" commands/AI when utilizing multiple ships, like "Surround" or similar to a "Harass" (for lack of a better name)(maintain outside of enemy ship range/weapon arcs). This would make utilizing multiple ships much more effective than the current "2 or 3 ships park infront of the enemy" behaviour.

2. Ships being less afraid of being in enemy weapon range, particularly when they have the speed to strafe out of fire, as speedy frigates tend to do.

Neither of these explcitly affect any class of ships, but I think affect asymmetric combat as a whole.

I like the points about economics, too. It's cheaper on maintenance, crew, fuel, equipment, just about everything to run larger ships.

I do think some of the player management costs of refitting many ships will go away with 0.9, but i'd also like to see an even faster Autofit (a "default retrofit"? auto autofit?)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2018, 10:09:27 PM
I'm kind of partial to the idea of raising cap ship deployment cost - it would really make sense as far as overall power. One problem, though, is if it goes up that much it'll be difficult to deploy much more than a cap ship in a lot of fights. Considering that the minimum battle size is 150, 80 is more than half to begin with.

Hmm. It might make sense to increase the maintenance and so on cost of cap ships, though, so while it's not a direct cost-to-deploy, that might be an even more powerful incentive not to have too many of them around.

Perhaps worth noting that combat capital ships have comparatively higher crew requirements relative to their deployment cost, so with crew salaries in play, they already *will* cost more to maintain in 0.9a.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SafariJohn on October 31, 2018, 10:11:05 PM
Hmm. It might make sense to increase the maintenance and so on cost of cap ships, though, so while it's not a direct cost-to-deploy, that might be an even more powerful incentive not to have too many of them around.

I am pretty sure that is what they are suggesting. I think it sounds good too.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2018, 10:12:23 PM
Ah - for some reason I assumed MesoTroniK was talking about deployment cost rather than monthly maintenance. Re-reading, I'm not 100% sure.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: MesoTroniK on October 31, 2018, 10:14:24 PM
I honestly was suggesting both, but I see what you mean now that you mention it Alex and you came to a good conclusion on your own.

But I still think what Dr was saying should be considered as well.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 31, 2018, 10:15:13 PM
Well, I do agree that raising capital ship monthly costs somewhat is warranted.  I also think *most* of the capital ship recovery costs are fair as is (absent any new mechanics), as well.  The Onslaught is a prime offender in terms of being too cheap, but with the lore of that ship the way it is, it would actually be internally consistent if it were relatively cheap to deploy but expensive to maintain.  High-tech mostly-AI ships like the Paragon might be very expensive to deploy but rather cheap to maintain.  It would offer an interesting contrast.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on October 31, 2018, 10:21:36 PM
Hmm. Let me think about it a bit - perhaps this would mostly be covered by increasing the crew required by the Onslaught. Then it'll be more expensive to maintain in credits rather than supplies, while the Paragon might have an overall lower ongoing maintenance cost (considering both crew and supplies/month) but a higher deployment cost, without having to actually change the supplies/month value for either.

(As far as officers affecting multiple ships, the merits of the idea aside, that's just a complete non-starter for me in terms of implementation.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SafariJohn on October 31, 2018, 10:23:32 PM
I've always thought it would be cool if deploy cost vs. maintenance cost was like DR says.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on October 31, 2018, 10:25:41 PM
The Onslaught is a prime offender in terms of being too cheap

Onslaught is already more expensive than Paragon in campaign. 50/10 is cheaper than 40/15 with typical amount of travel needed.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Dark.Revenant on October 31, 2018, 10:32:25 PM
Well, that's debatable depending on how far you travel.  With the crew changes Alex proposed, depending on how much of an impact salaries make, it would really differentiate the tiers of ships.  40 supplies of capital ship would cost like 4x the credits of 40 supplies of frigates, and that's with the 0.8 crew values.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Vayra on October 31, 2018, 10:34:41 PM
While I like the idea of making capitals considerably more expensive to run (be that deployment cost, crew, fuel, maintenance, all of the above) I think the issue of frigates and destroyers being too expensive late game also warrants specific attention and could use a positive buff. It'd be cool to see something like a logistics skill that disproportionately discounts running costs for small ships -- like, for ex., changing the existing "-50% maintenance costs for all ships" skill perk to something like "-80%/-50%/-20%/-10% to maintenance, fuel, and crew requirements for all ships".

e: or if deployment cost is a major factor, that could be discounted in the same way too. I.e. a skill giving "-50%/-25%/-10%/-0% to deployment supply and fleet point cost. (all ships)" or "deploying a cruiser/capital allows you to deploy up to half that ship's fleet point/supply deployment cost in frigates/destroyers for free" or something
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Astraltor on October 31, 2018, 11:53:09 PM
I don't think any amount of "reasonable" economic adjustments, or other non-combat adjustments, would make me want to prefer or enjoy using small ships in combat. Especially lategame when resources like supplies and fuel and crew are plentiful, and OP/deployment points (recovery points?) are at a premium.

Perhaps such can be practically proven otherwise though.

I am against using smaller ships and prefer to use purely the largest ships I can, regardless of out of combat costs, simply because that is the most effective combat strategy in nearly all situations. Frigates (and by extension non-capitals) would only become viable if such were no longer the case.

In addition to the previously mentioned AI, recovering ships necessarily weakens them -
D-mods,
extra repair costs,
current lower CR/armor/hull,
are extremely costly and permanently damaging, especially over multiple fights, or otherwise replacing specific ships.  Whereas a heavily damaged capital would be just fine in a visit to the repair yards or a week in space. Early on the player is drilled to get bigger and bigger ships, to avoid the costs of upkeeping a fragile fleet.
Perhaps if ships could be bought fully outfitted, or arbitrary outfits easier to acquire for new ships, would allieviate this requirement. (or perhaps restoration costs for common ships be significantly cheaper?)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 01, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
(As far as officers affecting multiple ships, the merits of the idea aside, that's just a complete non-starter for me in terms of implementation.)

But what else could really help?
Officer-less frigates (even if they were made more economically efficient) vs officer-ed capital is just whack-a-mole scenario. And with just 10 officers we clearly can't have enough for frigates on 1 for 1 basis.
Also, if officers will have salaries in next update and it's same for frigate or capital... Using them for frigates would be a stop-gap measure at most.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Histidine on November 01, 2018, 12:39:19 AM
(As far as officers affecting multiple ships, the merits of the idea aside, that's just a complete non-starter for me in terms of implementation.)

But what else could really help?
Officer-less frigates (even if they were made more economically efficient) vs officer-ed capital is just whack-a-mole scenario. And with just 10 officers we clearly can't have enough for frigates on 1 for 1 basis.
Also, if officers will have salaries in next update and it's same for frigate or capital... Using them for frigates would be a stop-gap measure at most.
If we had unlimited officers and the salary cost scaled with the size of the ship they were on, that would mitigate most of the problem.
(The main remaining drawback I see is that it'd still cost more and take longer to recruit officers for 20 frigates vs. 5 capitals)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cik on November 01, 2018, 04:08:13 AM
ultimately the problem is:

1. officers are a hard cap on the effectiveness of your ships, and since the scaling is percentile it is always a better idea to have them in heavier ships (excluding frigates and destroyers entirely for the most part)

2. frigates excel at fast terrain seizure, which doesn't matter whatsoever

if you aren't going to touch these two things frigates will remain irrelevant past early mid game. the rest of the problems (cap ships being cheaper, they die constantly, AI is too standoffish) are problems but at current there is nothing a frigate does that anything else can't do much better.

at least if terrain control mattered you could use them for that, and not expect too much if they are fighting destroyers+
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 01, 2018, 05:04:58 AM
Capitals are already pigs, especially on fuel.  I usually do not bring more than two warships, one a primary, another as backup when primary's CR is too low.  Actually, I probably have more Atlas and Prometheus than warships because I need their capacity.  They are pigs too.

Cruisers serve in an all-purpose role at endgame.  Falcons often serve as interceptors and cappers while everything else roams and kills whatever they find.

I do not use small ships (frigates and destroyers) or anything with SO in endgame mostly because their peak performance is too short, and the AI is cowardly Spathi.  No way I want to play ships with low gas mileage when ships love to stall despite aggressive options.

Even during the frigate glory days of 0.65, it was a challenge to finish fights before peak performance ran out on some frigates.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Schwartz on November 01, 2018, 06:45:44 AM
One is that PPT is an important limiting factor for SO and phase ships. Anything that substantially increases it is likely to make those completely out of control power-wise.
SO could alter PPT to a fixed time per hull size instead of a percentage. Not sure about phase ships.

Also, larger battles generally gravitating towards larger ships is good for performance - lots of small ships are more intensive than similar firepower on fewer larger ships - so, well. It's definitely something to consider; balance changes that make large numbers of frigates desirable in larger battles would have a large impact on performance.
True from a FPS standpoint, but I think the gameplay thought takes precedence. After all, fighters and missiles also spam the screen and kill FPS, and I'd say more so than a couple more frigates.

Bold suggestion... Maybe capships should be *far* more expensive to run? Where even a humble battlecruiser would be like 60, and battleships and capital carriers 70 to 80? It would also fit lore better, how capships are supposedly a rather large investment where right now they are actually *** easy to spam.
I don't like this at all. One, because I'm already getting into weird situations where my big fleet is meeting their bigger fleet and for some reason I can field about 2 cruisers and 2 destroyers before I hit my cap. Against twice or more the number of enemies. I'm ready for big battles but the game isn't giving them to me. Inflating costs for larger ships makes this even worse. Two, it tightens the screws on an already challenging logistics system. I'd rather have it eased a little bit for smaller ships than have it be worse for the bigger ones.


Lastly, to put this thread in perspective (for myself at least). I'm not seeing frigates become useless late game. I use them all the time. Tempests and Afflictors, granted, but they're survivable and they serve a purpose all the way to the finish line. Even Lashers could serve a purpose. Centurions, Monitors and others too for sure. They may die more easily, but that's what frigates are for. They're not meant to be impervious but to divert enemy heavy ordnance to fast-moving targets, to flank and to find weaknesses. They do all that just fine.

I also don't see combat time issues with frigates. Put Hardened Subsystems on them and they're about as enduring as a destroyer. Which I also bring to endgame fights. So if you have to send frigates to retreat 3/4 into a big engagement, they have pulled their weight IMO and I think the necessity to eventually retreat them adds another little tactical nugget that I don't mind at all.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 01, 2018, 07:33:59 AM
With Spathi AI, Hardened Subsystems is standard on player's ships (without SO).  Even that is not enough for smaller ships, especially high-tech ships with short timers.  Then there is Degraded Subsystems on various clunkers, which makes Hardened Subsystems necessary to make PPT long enough.

Single endgame fleets are already quite big, especially if I start with less than 30 ships so I can capture enemy ships (which is my primary way of acquiring more ships).  If you go into an active enemy system (like those marked by red beacons), the enemy fleets keep getting replaced about as fast as they get destroyed.

I do bring frigates with my endgame fleet.  They do not participate in proper endgame battles (due to lack of PPT and AI incompetence with Hyperion/phase ships), except maybe Afflictor flagship if I do not have a capital handy for the fight.  Tempest is mostly to enable auto-resolve (and let civilians and captured clunkers kill stuff) on the map, and Hyperion to kill the few early-game enemy fleets that refuse to flee from my endgame fleet (usually those annoying small Remnant fleets).

If deployment costs for capitals were raised, 500 or max battlemap size would not be big enough.  It is not really big enough today.  Something closer to 1000 would be more useful even if it kills my FPS if I try a fighter heavy fleet.

P.S.  Another reason I do not use frigates and destroyers is fighters.  Fighters only die if the carrier is killed.  Also, fighters are better missiles than missiles.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SafariJohn on November 01, 2018, 07:43:36 AM
In my experience, common frigates are reasonably survivable even in high tier bounty fights. Retreating them so they don't spontaneously fall apart, however, is annoying.

End-game vs. a [Redacted] battlestation is a different story.

One, because I'm already getting into weird situations where my big fleet is meeting their bigger fleet and for some reason I can field about 2 cruisers and 2 destroyers before I hit my cap. Against twice or more the number of enemies. I'm ready for big battles but the game isn't giving them to me.

As I'm sure you already know, they get more DP because they outnumber you. IIRC, vanilla battle size is 200. It could probably stand to be 300. Apparently I am back to running 500 atm.


Two, it tightens the screws on an already challenging logistics system.

On the other hand, it takes a while to get a capital ship, so a new player should have a decent grasp of supplies and fuel by then. IMO, a lot of the "challenge" with logistics is fake difficulty - why the heck do most markets not sell ANY supplies or fuel (besides 50-50 black market)? Hopefully the new economy will ease this issue.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 01, 2018, 09:04:44 AM
(As far as officers affecting multiple ships, the merits of the idea aside, that's just a complete non-starter for me in terms of implementation.)

But what else could really help?


Without getting too deeply into it, it's more "design feature" than "bug". Specialist frigates retain some usefulness as battles scale up, the rest mostly don't, on the very high end, though they may still be useful in other fights. I'm not against extending the usefulness of frigates somewhat, i.e. through indirect logistical costs etc, but I don't particularly want them to be great in every set of circumstances. It seems like *that* would be more of a problem.

(That's not to say that everything is perfect etc - of course things could pretty much always be improved. I'm just saying that I don't share the implicit assumption that frigate usefulness *needs* to keep up with other ships in large battles. I mean, their much lower PPT should be an indicator of that.)


If we had unlimited officers and the salary cost scaled with the size of the ship they were on, that would mitigate most of the problem.
(The main remaining drawback I see is that it'd still cost more and take longer to recruit officers for 20 frigates vs. 5 capitals)

Hmm, interesting. The other drawback (which you touch on) would just be having to manage all the extra officers.

As things are now, it seems like you'd have enough officers to stick on a frigate or two, even for the largest battles, right? It's when you want to deploy 10+ frigates in addition to the other ships that the officer limit comes into play. Or if you've only got 4 officers.

(I've also got some thoughts re: this and the eventual skill revamp, but I really don't want to get into that here and now :))
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 01, 2018, 09:59:39 AM
If we take the officer solution without some kind of battle-group mechanic, then the only thing that really makes sense is for an officer's "worth" to be more-or-less consistent regardless of which size of ship he's on.  If an officer makes a capital ship generally more effective, he should make a frigate profoundly superior to a non-officer frigate.  This would enable a (unoptimized and niche, but regardless fun) wolf-pack strategy where the whole fleet is just a set of elite small/fast frigates and destroyers with experienced officers all turbocharging their ships.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Deshara on November 01, 2018, 10:24:29 AM
what if instead of unlimited officers (which increases the time needed to manage officers), a skill that increases the amount of small ships an officer can be assigned to?

edit: while we're at it; what if officers required a skill to allow them to operate larger ships? That'd really give frigates a boon in the mid-game, since they'd be required for training up new officers in a fleet that's building up on larger ships -- even if frigates are entirely obscoleted by the scale of the battle, you'd still need to have them to provide an upflow for green officers to get their feet wet enough to be capable of overseeing the fleet's onslaught in case its CO dies in battle.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Deshara on November 01, 2018, 10:26:49 AM
also I like the idea of capital ships being more supply efficient to deploy to battle, but having such unreasonable crew requirements that either the capital ship never operates at full CR bc it's run on a skeleton crew, or the crew cost of fully staffing the capital ship negates the supply efficiency of deployment by giving a hefty crew wages cost that needs to be offset by a functioning colony. Particularly I like the idea of a player's colony being directly set up with the intention of sponsoring a capital ship, tho iirc some of the fundamental mechanics of staffing management was axed in prior builds
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 01, 2018, 10:59:42 AM
If we take the officer solution without some kind of battle-group mechanic, then the only thing that really makes sense is for an officer's "worth" to be more-or-less consistent regardless of which size of ship he's on.

Is that really the case, though? Diminishing returns are not by default a bad thing, that is, you might still want to add another officer even if you're not putting them in your largest ship, and that can be ok as long as the value you get out of the officer exceeds the officer's cost. It doesn't need to match the value you're getting out of another officer.

And, for example, if you've got two capital ships and a cruiser, and two officers, then any combination of assignments might make sense. You might frequently deploy the capital and the cruiser together, so despite the theoretical value of the 2nd officer being on a capital being higher, the actual value is higher when you put them on a cruiser. And you could of course move them to the capital if you really need to for a particularly large fight.

So it doesn't seem all that clear-cut to me. I don't think anyone is realistically running around with 10 officer'ed capitals and getting value out of them, you know? And that seems key to making the case that officers need to provide the same amount of value.


If an officer makes a capital ship generally more effective, he should make a frigate profoundly superior to a non-officer frigate.  This would enable a (unoptimized and niche, but regardless fun) wolf-pack strategy where the whole fleet is just a set of elite small/fast frigates and destroyers with experienced officers all turbocharging their ships.

Hmm - I think that'd probably mess up the early game balance. Frigates are already fast, if they also get comparatively much stronger, they'd be the best option for too many cases. This is kind of what I'm talking about here - trying too hard to make frigates something they're not is going to make something break somewhere, right?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Gothars on November 01, 2018, 11:01:58 AM
I wouldn't mind if capitals were a bit more expensive to deploy (in terms of supplys needed, not  terms of ow many you could deploy). I think this would be more of a boost to cruiser and destroyer than frigates, though.

What I think frigates need to stay relevant are more special circumstances that make them useful. They have two at the moment, pursuit scenarios and capturing objectives. If E.G. fleet splitting, or engaging subsets of enemy fleets ever become a thing, frigates will find probaly find new worth in these scenarios.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 01, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
I wouldn't mind if capitals were a bit more expensive to deploy (in terms of supplys needed, not  terms of ow many you could deploy). I think this would be more of a boost to cruiser and destroyer than frigates, though.

What I think frigates need to stay relevant are more special circumstances that make them useful. They have two at the moment, pursuit scenarios and capturing objectives. If E.G. fleet splitting, or engaging subsets of enemy fleets ever become a thing, frigates will find probaly find new worth in these scenarios.
I probably would either use more cruisers or (more likely) lump the extra cost.  I already use only two (or occasionally three) combat capitals because capitals (including stuff like Atlas and Prometheus) eat too much already.  Nearly everything else in my combat fleet are cruisers or Drover.  My fleet is mostly a cruiser fleet, for having the best balance of cost, speed, power, shot range, and (most important) PPT.  Admittedly, if Falcon was not in the game, I probably would use few destroyers, probably Hammerhead, to fill the cheap grunt role.

Not fond of frigates in pursuit because frigates are fragile enough to be risky (enemy on the run will probably shoot back), plus auto-resolve is effective enough (even for ships that otherwise have no business fighting) that there is no need to fight pursuits manually (at least in unmodded game).

The only objectives worth capturing are Sensors, and only if the enemy has Electronic Warfare to offset yours.  Of course, even if objectives were important, frigates capturing them may not do much good if they cannot hold the point the moment fast big ships get there few moments later.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: SCC on November 01, 2018, 12:21:48 PM
As things are now, it seems like you'd have enough officers to stick on a frigate or two, even for the largest battles, right? It's when you want to deploy 10+ frigates in addition to the other ships that the officer limit comes into play. Or if you've only got 4 officers.

(I've also got some thoughts re: this and the eventual skill revamp, but I really don't want to get into that here and now :))
Head hunter office. You outline the requirements in level, skills and possible skills, they do the paper work and look for them. Boom, colonies are even more useful now. Secondary utility of this would be to hire officers with preset skills (or preset skill picks on level up), which would reduce the busywork again. It would be nice if the effectiveness of this building scaled with accessibility more than with population.

What I think frigates need to stay relevant are more special circumstances that make them useful. They have two at the moment, pursuit scenarios and capturing objectives. If E.G. fleet splitting, or engaging subsets of enemy fleets ever become a thing, frigates will find probaly find new worth in these scenarios.
The best they have to offer is strategic mobility, but this advantage is kill once you need to bring more than frigates. Good substitute would be the ability to engage with reserves, but Alex has already shot that suggestion down.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cik on November 01, 2018, 01:35:02 PM
alex does not seem keen on adding scenarios that aren't deathballs.

i've posted several relatively lengthy topics on the subject and though they occasionally they reach 2-3 pages they never get any notice.

unfortunately, everything that isn't megadeathgunboat+n is going to suffer if literally every combat scenario is just a variant of shoot 'em up

the game gives lip service to battlespace control with objectives, but they are (in my experience) never worth going after in lieu of just deploying gun platforms and chainsawing the enemy to death in the shortest possible time.

alex has never told me flat out that my ideas are stupid and will never be implemented but to my recollection they've got no official recognition, which means that any sort of strategic play does not seem to be slated to receive the sort of developmental attention that i believe it deserves.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Hiruma Kai on November 01, 2018, 01:41:13 PM
Given one of the issues with frigates late game is they are fragile in the face of cruiser and capitals, what if you had a way of mitigating that fragility which didn't work for larger ships.  I believe Alex was looking into retaining all weapons on a ship that is destroyed but recovered.  Imagine taking that a bit farther and add a method for recovering a certain number of your lost frigates in pristine condition after combat with a reasonable amount of CR restored?

For example, imagine for every Salvage rig in your fleet, you were guaranteed 1 of your lost frigates back with no (extra) D-mods, no loss of weapons, maybe simply down by deployment x2 worth of CR.  Or if there was a slow, support capital ship which did something similar for all your lost frigates (imagine a carrier but on an even larger scale, like a frigate factory ship).  At which point while there is still opportunity cost in deploying frigates, the annoyance of flying a fleet around to simply restock frigates goes away.

Now the frigate's role becomes that of an expendable ship for dangerous tactics, like distract that Onslaught over there while I finish up this Legion over here.  Would that be sufficient of an end game use?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 01, 2018, 02:04:07 PM
i've posted several relatively lengthy topics on the subject and though they occasionally they reach 2-3 pages they never get any notice.

IMO this sort of stuff (not speaking to your ideas specifically; I remember reading a number of threads on similar topics) too easily shades into "cure worse than disease" territory. That is, it gets complicated, has unintended consequences, is awkward to explain to the player/provide proper UI support for the mechanic/for the player to actually interact with, and so on. All this stuff sounds great in theory but consider how much of a pain it is to just get a relatively-very-simple "retreat scenario" to work well. Until/unless that's sorted, anything more complicated seems like asking for trouble just in principle.

Deathballs generally tend to... not actually be deathballs, anyway. That is, unless it's mostly carriers. Other ships are more effective spread out in a line, and that's what they tend to do, so *to some extent* the spreading-out that objectives are meant to encourage (and, yes, aren't very successful at) happens naturally.


Given one of the issues with frigates late game is they are fragile in the face of cruiser and capitals, what if you had a way of mitigating that fragility which didn't work for larger ships.  I believe Alex was looking into retaining all weapons on a ship that is destroyed but recovered.  Imagine taking that a bit farther and add a method for recovering a certain number of your lost frigates in pristine condition after combat with a reasonable amount of CR restored?

For example, imagine for every Salvage rig in your fleet, you were guaranteed 1 of your lost frigates back with no (extra) D-mods, no loss of weapons, maybe simply down by deployment x2 worth of CR.  Or if there was a slow, support capital ship which did something similar for all your lost frigates (imagine a carrier but on an even larger scale, like a frigate factory ship).  At which point while there is still opportunity cost in deploying frigates, the annoyance of flying a fleet around to simply restock frigates goes away.

Now the frigate's role becomes that of an expendable ship for dangerous tactics, like distract that Onslaught over there while I finish up this Legion over here.  Would that be sufficient of an end game use?

That's a *really* interesting idea! Let me make a note - I doubt I'll be able to look at it for 0.9, but I think this has a ton of potential. It makes a ton of sense to have something like this be available to frigates only, and it'd be a really neat use for Salvage Rigs. With the caveat that there may be some issues we're not thinking of, I really like the idea.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 01, 2018, 03:38:34 PM
Being able to recover (previously undamaged) frigates without adding more (D) mods (without spending skill points) would be very handy.  So far, I have resigned to use clunkers so I do not reload a game the moment an undamaged ship explodes, although I very much want to use undamaged ships.

That is a reason why I use carriers and fighters instead of frigates and destroyers.  (Another reason is Falcon does the destroyer job very well, while having shot range and peak performance of a cruiser.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 01, 2018, 03:54:28 PM
I remember another reason why I like cruiser fleet:  Dedicated Targeting Core.  For those without Tri-Tachyon commission, ITU is practically an endgame feature, dropped after much grinding.  For a long time, cruisers with DTC will greatly outrange your smaller ships for most of the game.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on November 01, 2018, 08:26:33 PM
Frigate fragility is one of my issues with them in the end game, even with the .81 skills. I don't really use them except for pursuits, which from what I remember is going away, assassinating targets with Afflictor, and attacking small to medium sized fleets.
Also, PLEASE don't add yet another "F*** the player" thing by making caps more expensive. For one it does NOT address the issue of frigates being near useless, baring special ships like the Tempest and the Afflictor. The other is that the AI doesn't care about costs, once again... >.> , and will happily bring two or three caps to a fight wile I STRUGGLE to get ONE out there. And that also screws me even harder because that basically means that any time the enemy has a cap, I will get outnumbered.

One help for the enemy AI would be to STOP trickle deploying one size. Basically right now the enemy deploys in order of increasing FP, meaning that the caps have no frigates or destroyers as anti small ship cover while the smaller ships dont have an ally/ anvil to fall back to.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Thaago on November 01, 2018, 10:11:16 PM
I strongly feel that the only reason frigates should be relevant to an endgame fleet is if there is some reason for an endgame fleet to have fast skirmishing ships, or if those frigates have a strong specialty like the Omen.

When objectives were powerful, fast skirmishers were important: getting a large global fleet benefit was worth having skirmishers rush a point. Whoever got there first would then have advantage in the clash of the larger ships (often over the same point). And as numbers diminished, there would be all sorts of skirmishes over distant points.

Now objectives are, almost always, worse than useless. Wasting a command point that could be an eliminate, avoid, or defend (to pull back my overextended ships) for marginal/no gain is a net negative. Comm nodes can sometimes be worth it if you want your battle line planted in front of it anyways.

So my suggestions to make frigates more worthwhile would be:
1) Make objectives much more powerful.
2) Make frigates much more available to the player - either in production or recovery.
3) Make the AI fleets have a reasonable number of frigates. Enemy fleets tend to have dozens of useless frigates that lower performance, clog up the battle, make the AI look dumb, and make it automatic that the player will lose any skirmish they attempt because of being outnumbered 5:1.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Dark.Revenant on November 01, 2018, 10:26:18 PM
I think there's another opportunity to make frigates more viable to the player: make the player perceive them as more viable.

Right now, one of the most annoying things about them is the micromanagement aspect, often draining command points because you need to assign them to escorts, point captures, retreats, and so forth.  But, what if you could assign standing orders (as we had WAY back), only this time it would be a general order for frigates and destroyers to automatically retreat when they reach some threshold like 40% CR and 0 PPT?  There could also be one for a hull threshold, like automatically retreat when they lose half the hull they started with.

This would allow frigates to be much more autonomous and less likely to get themselves killed, which I think would be such a nice perk that it would entice more people to use them in the late game.  As an added bonus, it also makes the early game a little easier to learn and more forgiving, since your own ships will get out of dodge if things turn sour.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: vagrant on November 02, 2018, 12:39:45 PM
Given one of the issues with frigates late game is they are fragile in the face of cruiser and capitals, what if you had a way of mitigating that fragility which didn't work for larger ships.  I believe Alex was looking into retaining all weapons on a ship that is destroyed but recovered.  Imagine taking that a bit farther and add a method for recovering a certain number of your lost frigates in pristine condition after combat with a reasonable amount of CR restored?

For example, imagine for every Salvage rig in your fleet, you were guaranteed 1 of your lost frigates back with no (extra) D-mods, no loss of weapons, maybe simply down by deployment x2 worth of CR.  Or if there was a slow, support capital ship which did something similar for all your lost frigates (imagine a carrier but on an even larger scale, like a frigate factory ship).  At which point while there is still opportunity cost in deploying frigates, the annoyance of flying a fleet around to simply restock frigates goes away.

Now the frigate's role becomes that of an expendable ship for dangerous tactics, like distract that Onslaught over there while I finish up this Legion over here.  Would that be sufficient of an end game use?


I'd like it if this was an expensive hullmod and mutually exclusive with converted hangar (or any hangar?) too. Maybe exclude destroyers, as well from equipping it?

Also, a potential limitation could be that the Salvage Rig (or other eligible ship) must select a SPECIFIC frigate in the player' current fleet, and that like installing major modifications to a ship, the process of creating a frigate-backup-on-demand is labor intensive and must occur while docked.

So this way players
a) aren't dependent on only using the salvage rig for this feature
b) can make interesting choices re: fighters vs frigates
c) can't just hotswap their frigate-backup-on-demands between each and every encounter.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Hiruma Kai on November 02, 2018, 02:01:10 PM
I'd like it if this was an expensive hullmod and mutually exclusive with converted hangar (or any hangar?) too. Maybe exclude destroyers, as well from equipping it?

Also, a potential limitation could be that the Salvage Rig (or other eligible ship) must select a SPECIFIC frigate in the player' current fleet, and that like installing major modifications to a ship, the process of creating a frigate-backup-on-demand is labor intensive and must occur while docked.

So this way players
a) aren't dependent on only using the salvage rig for this feature
b) can make interesting choices re: fighters vs frigates
c) can't just hotswap their frigate-backup-on-demands between each and every encounter.

The way I imagined the interface working was either simply having the pristine frigate show up in the normal recovery window (and randomly determined out of the ones you've lost), or alternatively to provide more control, provide a recovery window step before the main recovery window, which just presents all the frigates you lost.  You pick a number up to or less than your allowance and get those back with no additional D-mods and some reasonable CR left, then continue to the normal recovery screen, where you might recover the remaining frigates along with everything else normally (i.e. with usual number of D-mods and zero CR).

Locking it to a particular frigate sounds difficult to do given the current interface.  Also, given we have the ability to change ship configurations in deep space at the cost of CR, its not really possible to limit the choice to while docked only.

The way I see it, you're using your superior salvage ships to literally collect all of the frigate parts, and reprocessing the ruined parts on the fly, rather than a completely new build like we do with fighters, as then you should be able to just build more frigates beyond what you started with.  So you just point your salvage ship at the destroyed frigate right after battle, so no need to pre-designate.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Chronosfear on November 02, 2018, 02:05:01 PM
My 5 Cent.

to "unlimited" officers:
Why not add "subordinates" directly attached to the specific officer and simply "added or removed" with a button while docked at a shipyard. (need more than that .. now its just plain simple)
The number of subordinates is dependent on the ship the officer is commanding and increases the salary of that officers.
Also while not having not enough subordinates (eg. change the ship of the officer midspace) give it a reduction in maximum CR depended on the % of subordinates missing or something


Could also add those subordinates for the player itself.

--------------

As long a bigger AI-Fleets yield ~2 BBs and several cruisers, we should not increase the cost ob BBs (0.8 wise.. other we will see) It will only punish the player since they have to care about supplies.
We need to give frigates and maybe destroyers another reason to be used ... I'm not entirely sure how to achieve that.
I always thought about some sort of evasion% based on the ship class vs. large weapons (but that is to random and irritating)

...
hmm:
give ships that retreated from a battlefield a timer based on the size while frigates way smaller than BBs. after that they can be redeployed without a 2nd hit on CR (=free deployment)
(hull and armor damage stays as when it retreated while missiles are refilled) Systems with limited charges per battle (not the recharging ones) = Autoforge may not be available again.
Then you only have to teach the AI to use this "buff"

and maybe give us a pre-battle config how ships should behave (that is why I like http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13199.0 (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13199.0) (Autonomous ships mod))



Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: FooF on November 02, 2018, 04:14:05 PM
Interesting ideas.

I get what Alex is saying in that Frigates are by design not meant to be useful in a straight-up slugfest when capitals and cruisers are abundant. It's a square peg in a round hole. I think there is an underlying rock-paper-scissor assumption where frigates, due to speed and maneuverability, are supposed to counter slow/lumbering capitals. I don't think this is the case in the game nor should it be.

I've advocated giving frigates a role in large-scale battles by creating opportunistic targets of some type. An Onslaught might not be able to get behind the lines to disrupt an AWACS-type target having some support role (not currently in the game, just a hypothetical) but a few frigates could be blockade runners and take down a soft target (unless said target is given escorts!). That kind of tactical element currently isn't in the game but it would give frigates a niche.

That said, I agree with the sentiment that speed and the ability to quickly traverse the map is not really a great benefit right now. There's no ground to hold or points of interest to defend that have a significant impact on the battle. That's where a nimble frigate would find its role in a huge battlefield as opposed to the larger ships. Until such a thing exists, if it ever does, Frigates are just smaller combat ships that have limited usefulness in a big fight. Positioning is key in this game but Armor also exists, as does directional Shields that can shrug off frigate-grade firepower.

The idea of Frigates being "expendable" via Salvage Rigs is interesting. Knowing that I can lose a few frigates in a fight without having "lasting" damage to my fleet is a good incentive to deploy them. However, I think that could be perks of using Frigates, in general. Perhaps its skill-based or fleet composition-based (i.e. the salvage rigs) but Frigates being expendable as part of their "class" (size) gives them something that Destroyers and above would not enjoy. Not only could Frigates have much higher recovery rates (in general) but their repair rates could be high and their repair costs could be low. Losing them would be "normal" as would recovering/repairing them. This would also encourage the new/early-game player as they lose ships in the beginning of the learning curve. If they learn that a Frigate isn't that hard to repair/replace, they won't reload every time they lose their starter Kite. Even in such a scenario as the above, frigate swarms can't win the day because pound-for-pound, they're still inferior to the larger ships.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Schwartz on November 02, 2018, 05:14:14 PM
After this last round of battles where a single frigate saved my hide several times by holding off a redacted capital while we were whittling down the other, I can only reiterate that they are universally useful. They need to be fast, that's all.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cik on November 02, 2018, 07:28:59 PM


IMO this sort of stuff (not speaking to your ideas specifically; I remember reading a number of threads on similar topics) too easily shades into "cure worse than disease" territory. That is, it gets complicated, has unintended consequences, is awkward to explain to the player/provide proper UI support for the mechanic/for the player to actually interact with, and so on. All this stuff sounds great in theory but consider how much of a pain it is to just get a relatively-very-simple "retreat scenario" to work well. Until/unless that's sorted, anything more complicated seems like asking for trouble just in principle.

Deathballs generally tend to... not actually be deathballs, anyway. That is, unless it's mostly carriers. Other ships are more effective spread out in a line, and that's what they tend to do, so *to some extent* the spreading-out that objectives are meant to encourage (and, yes, aren't very successful at) happens naturally.


perhaps you and I have a different idea of what a deathball is? what i mean by deathball is that both sides generally ignore any sort of larger strategic maneuvering or terrain holding, go to the center of the map and determine the victor by shooting at each other in a tight a ball as possible (respecting the fact that you can't have nonfighters on top of each other) in current SS, the ideal formation is just the tightest possible formation that concentrates the most possible firepower forward (as you never have to fear any sort of strategic flanking maneuver) gunboats are strictly superior because you can count on the fact that you will be in your element in 99% of battles and those who trade firepower for maneuverability or strategic redeployment speed always lose the trade in the line fights as speed (under a certain value) is mostly useless in actual combat. guns are accurate that anything bigger than a certain size and under a certain speed will be hit 99.99..% of the time.

there are no weapons or tactics that force the player(s) or AI to actually spread itself out and control territory. this is what i mean by "deathball" in this particular situation, there is no role for any type of ship who's primary purpose is NOT maximizing firepower on target, which is why frigates are not good- that shouldn't be a frigate's primary purpose and indeed in the game it isn't. it's primary purpose is objective capping (currently mostly ineffective at providing any sort of benefit) force concentration (AI just doesn't maneuver well enough for this to happen reliably) and strategic support (there are many reasons this doesn't really work and the list is too long to go into here)

i guess perhaps our philosophy is different. when i ask the question "should the optimal battlefield strategy to be "hold W, select autofire, win/lose based on firepower disparity"? my answer is no. you have this entire layer of real time strategy in the game that's effectively pointless right now as 1) you never have to actually give orders to anything to win, and giving orders generally doesn't noticeably improve AI effectiveness or behavior anyway and 2) there is no reason to really distribute your forces in any actual formation or distribution. the ad hoc deathball that forms is enough to do the job and there's no ability or even point to forming any sort of actual strategy.

which seems to me to be a waste of the game's potential personally. the SHMUP aspects of the game have improved noticeably in the last couple patches, but the tactical gameplay has advanced not at all (or even gone in reverse i would argue in several ways with the addition of skills/officers)

for me personally, some novel deployments to spice up the battles is important so the battle(s) do not feel exactly the same every time. how about some mixed up deployments or battlefield hazards?

if i had to name the primary reason that battles in the game take on this form, i would probably say it's the lack of a sensor model that can support more ambiguity and make scouting a little more beneficial. the reason you have picket ships in the first place is that you actually don't know where the enemy is the majority of the time. you want screens (smaller, faster ships) to make sure your heavy stuff doesn't blunder directly into torpedo boats, destroyers or submarines that will imperil you and take advantage of their close range / speed advantages to wreck you.

if you create a WWII naval battle, and assume that everyone can see each other all the time, what you get is exactly what happens in game: everything below a battleship is at best second (third, fourth, fifth etc) fiddle as the battleship's advantages (impenetrable armor, huge displacement, large reserves of ammo, complicated over-the-horizon targeting, big ass guns) melt everything else who's purpose ISN'T just throwing the biggest amount of lead humanly possible.

anyway, the possibilities for improvement are endless in this area. i just hope it gets attention as nobody but me seems to care about it, rip.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: intrinsic_parity on November 02, 2018, 08:36:21 PM
IMO this sort of stuff (not speaking to your ideas specifically; I remember reading a number of threads on similar topics) too easily shades into "cure worse than disease" territory. That is, it gets complicated, has unintended consequences, is awkward to explain to the player/provide proper UI support for the mechanic/for the player to actually interact with, and so on. All this stuff sounds great in theory but consider how much of a pain it is to just get a relatively-very-simple "retreat scenario" to work well. Until/unless that's sorted, anything more complicated seems like asking for trouble just in principle.
I think the problems with the retreat scenario are intrinsic to the fact that it only occurs when one side is totally outmatched and wants to run away. Thats going to have a lot negative consequences inherently, not because of any balance or design decisions. Retreaters all have their backs turned, slow ships (particularly civilian ships) are unable to escape, etc. It's never fun for the player on either side because it's either a mop up chore or a total loss. If the player has any chance of winning in a fight, they will save scum in a conventional battle, and avoid losing civilian ships (or put another way, if you can successfully retreat without losing much, you could have won a straight up fight with some save scumming). There is no upside to retreating unless you give the retreating player some major advantage they wouldn't have in a normal fight (which makes no sense). It's always going to be a boring slaughter.

Deathballs generally tend to... not actually be deathballs, anyway. That is, unless it's mostly carriers. Other ships are more effective spread out in a line, and that's what they tend to do, so *to some extent* the spreading-out that objectives are meant to encourage (and, yes, aren't very successful at) happens naturally.

you have this entire layer of real time strategy in the game that's effectively pointless right now as 1) you never have to actually give orders to anything to win, and giving orders generally doesn't noticeably improve AI effectiveness or behavior anyway and 2) there is no reason to really distribute your forces in any actual formation or distribution. the ad hoc deathball that forms is enough to do the job and there's no ability or even point to forming any sort of actual strategy.

I'm inclined to agree with Cik. In my experience, the only way ships really die (in a relatively even fight) is by being isolated and locally outgunned. The optimal strategy is therefore to stay tightly grouped (forming a tightly grouped line is still more or less a death ball). The strategy element is mostly lost. I actually use my orders to try and ensure that my fleet stays tightly grouped with escort orders and one assault order on an objective. Trying to spread out/ control objectives is actively bad.

I have tried many times to get spread out attacks to work and here is my general experience:
If the AI is allowed (or ordered) to spread out, they will form small groups that stick together. The battle then breaks down into a bunch of smaller fights between small groups of ships. This is fine in general but the player doesn't have enough control to save ships once they are in a bad position, meaning if a larger force of enemies encounters your small group, you will lose those ships. The optimal strategy is just to have them all together so they never get in a bad position. I think this also partially because the AI ignores my orders (if I try to order a ship to reposition to help a vulnerable ship, they usually ignore and keep fighting whatever ship they are currently fighting). Also sometimes if I try to order ships to run away (by ordering them to some location far away), they will not immediately back up. Maybe improving the AI's ability to disengage from a fight and follow orders would help, but right now, orders don't do much and the player has little control of what happens in combat beyond their own ship, so having their fleet stay tightly grouped together is the lowest risk way to play and allows the player to be close enough to all ships to come to their aid.

TLDR: Ships spreading out drastically reduces the players ability to influence what happens so the player is always incentivized to keep things close. The player wants to control the fight, not leave it in the hands of the AI  and the RNG of where ships wander to at the beginning of the battle.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 02, 2018, 09:11:11 PM
I think the problems with the retreat scenario are intrinsic to the fact that it only occurs when one side is totally outmatched and wants to run away.

That's a fair point.


The optimal strategy is therefore to stay tightly grouped (forming a tightly grouped line is still more or less a death ball)

If that's how you want to define it, sure, but a battle line in a large battle can span a considerable portion of the map, is often a more beneficial arrangement than an actual ball (more surface area, less jostling), and also one that's more interesting to participate in for the player. To me that's an important enough distinction to make, since that's what we're after here - situations that are more interesting tactically.

(Edit: I just want to add that while grouping up may in some sense/situations be "optimal", you can definitely do things in other ways, too. Even with tough fights, I often end up finishing them with ships spread out on the map, entirely in the absence of objectives. Often it's a case of "hmm, clump of my ships broke off and is in trouble" which creates a local advantage for me, or their opponents are in trouble, which means I can play more defensive and there's a solid chance they'll come out on top. It really can work out nicely.)

(And another thing worth adding is that how the "admiral" AI deploys/manages stuff in .8 probably has to do with the perceived effectiveness of grouping up...)

TLDR: Ships spreading out drastically reduces the players ability to influence what happens so the player is always incentivized to keep things close. The player wants to control the fight, not leave it in the hands of the AI and the RNG of where ships wander to at the beginning of the battle.

I mean, that's definitely true. Isn't it also a pretty good argument against adding mechanics that force the player to split their ships?

IMO the argument *for* it is that splitting ships may create different tactical situations, which is good. But just splitting ships for the sake of it isn't necessarily good; i.e. if we've got several nearby "clumps" or line-sections within reasonable range from each other, that goal is more or less accomplished, and splitting ships more still just adds to downsides of doing it.

Improvements to orders could certainly be good, though - and there's a lot of that in 0.9, especially to do with improved (and still safe) order-following.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cik on November 02, 2018, 09:28:02 PM
ultimately what the players can do whatever they want with their ships, the issue is that currently there is one strategy that is always best (and it's particularly brainless) if you could feasibly play a wide game and win (and build your fleet to do it) the deathball would not be a significant problem.

the game does not model many of the things that force a more reasonable fleet stance- in particular the relatively fixed nature of battlefields (very little unpredictable/substantive terrain) and extremely predictable enemy deployments mean that you never need to bother figuring out where the enemy actually is because they're always going to be in the same place, more or less. there are also no weapons that are really capable of hurting medium+ sized formations of ships, meaning packing more ships into an area is always an advantage down to the point where the rearward ships have to flex to maintain LOF.

in which case you just get a packed line (where most non-line ships are again useless)

are there any plans to look at implementing a more holistic deployment system that can handle shaking up the deployment and taking into account character/player skill / ambushes / terrain / ship strategic mobility etc?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: intrinsic_parity on November 02, 2018, 10:43:35 PM
If that's how you want to define it, sure, but a battle line in a large battle can span a considerable portion of the map, is often a more beneficial arrangement than an actual ball (more surface area, less jostling), and also one that's more interesting to participate in for the player. To me that's an important enough distinction to make, since that's what we're after here - situations that are more interesting tactically.
I guess I don't really consider it a tactical distinction because the player has no control over exactly how the AI form up, but yes there is a big difference between ball and line. My distinction is more ' are the ships close enough that player can protect them easily or not'. If your entire fleet is close enough that you can protect them and they can all help each other very quickly, then it is more or less a death ball imo.

On a related note, it is very annoying when playing a large slow ship with range (paragon) and friendlies sit in front of you so you can't shoot (the drawback of a ball formation). Any chance that can be adjusted? Especially small ships like destroyers at the beginning of the battle, they are faster so they end up in front of the big slow ships and then they don't get out of the way well.

Quote
(And another thing worth adding is that how the "admiral" AI deploys/manages stuff in .8 probably has to do with the perceived effectiveness of grouping up...)
Yeah that sounds like a it would influence the issue a lot. Is that changing in .9?

Quote
I mean, that's definitely true. Isn't it also a pretty good argument against adding mechanics that force the player to split their ships?

IMO the argument *for* it is that splitting ships may create different tactical situations, which is good. But just splitting ships for the sake of it isn't necessarily good; i.e. if we've got several nearby "clumps" or line-sections within reasonable range from each other, that goal is more or less accomplished, and splitting ships more still just adds to downsides of doing it.

Improvements to orders could certainly be good, though - and there's a lot of that in 0.9, especially to do with improved (and still safe) order-following.
I would say I want there to be interesting tactical decisions about where to send your fleet to gain an advantage, and the current lack of control makes that more or less never true. Its hard to judge the current incentives to split (control points) because the lack of control makes splitting not feasible/consistent, regardless of how advantageous it is. If orders are significantly improved, that is very encouraging. I agree that forcing the player to split their fleet when they cannot effectively control it is bad. I just don't like that the best decision is more or less always the same currently.

I would like to see control points made more significant to make the advantage of splitting more significant. Maybe maybe the bonuses stronger but AOE so that there are actual positional considerations after you capture a point (that's probably been suggested before).
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 03, 2018, 01:30:06 AM
Also, PLEASE don't add yet another "F*** the player" thing by making caps more expensive. For one it does NOT address the issue of frigates being near useless, baring special ships like the Tempest and the Afflictor. The other is that the AI doesn't care about costs, once again... >.> , and will happily bring two or three caps to a fight wile I STRUGGLE to get ONE out there.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not saying there shouldn't ever be any additional balancing, but in the endgame, your fuel and supplies are already hoovered up on the scale of tons per second. I know a lot of you hardcore Starsector veterans don't see this as a big deal, but I believe it is. Meanwhile, the AI (using high-end bounties as a touchstone) survives on evaporated unicorn tears, and can and will bring two to three capital ships to a fight. If there are two to three AI capitals, the rest of the AI fleet will usually be pretty sane; but if there's only one capital, then to compensate there will typically be a much larger number of destroyers and frigates. I remember a recent bounty where there were at least eight enemy Medusas.

As someone mentioned previously, that's a change that could help both performance and frigates: Alter enemy fleets so that they don't contain eight to ten destroyers and a dozen or so frigates.

One possibility to help retain some frigate usefulness (that may not be appropriate for Starsector, but I'll throw it out anyway) could be to give frigates a 20% "dodge bonus" versus cruisers, and 40% versus capital ships. Very simply, a percentage of hits simply miss them to represent abstracted agility. There could even be a frigate-specific dodge bonus hull mod in the same way there are targeting computer mods for cruisers and capitals. Alternatively, the dodge bonus could apply to medium (20%) and large (40%) turrets rather than to the ships that have these turrets equipped, although that would interfere somewhat with the balancing of ships that fit weapons that are oversized for their class.

Personally, I still find some use for frigates in my current endgame run as escorts and to quickly capture objectives. The Monitor that I use for escort duty has yet to either run out of peak performance or be disabled. The Tempests I use to capture objectives will certainly run out of peak performance before the end of the battle, but by then it's not a big deal; and occasionally they're destroyed, and I just eat the cost (around $55k on average to restore and replace weapons).
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 05:53:11 AM
No ghost evasion, please!  That would be so aggravating, enough to smash a keyboard or screen in frustration!

Fuel is a big deal, I have probably about five or six capitals in my endgame fleet, mostly the haulers (i.e., Atlas and Prometheus) when I raid fringe systems for bounties and/or Remnants.  Capitals are already expensive (because they are big gas guzzlers, including the haulers).  Meanwhile, AI does not care about resources, and can spawn unlimited replacement fleets anywhere it wants.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 03, 2018, 08:35:53 AM
No ghost evasion, please!  That would be so aggravating, enough to smash a keyboard or screen in frustration!

I knew some people probably wouldn't like that particular suggestion, but that's a little extreme and I don't really understand why.

Regardless of what is done (if anything) to make frigates more useful and survivable, you can't have it both ways. If you want your cruisers and capitals to effortlessly mow down frigates, then the enemy will pretty much be able to do the same to yours. While piloting my Onslaught, usually the most annoying thing about frigates is that they're blocking some of my shots that are meant for a destroyer or cruiser, which means they're only slightly more threatening than floating debris. There are exceptions of course, torpedoes and the like, but those aren't too common.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 09:23:09 AM
My main gripe with frigates and many destroyers is too short peak performance in endgame battles.  I do not want to burn CP after CP sending small bleeding ships off the map.  Also, lack of shot range if I am missing ITU.

If I use clunkers, survival is a minor concern as long as rare weapons (i.e., anything not commonly found in Open Market, pirates' Black Market, or loot from pirate ships) are not lost.  Currently, if I lose Falcon/Eagle/Dominator with (D) mods and open market weapons, I do not care.  If I lose my undamaged Hyperion or Paragon with rare weapons, that is an automatic game reload because I do not want to spend possibly hours grinding for replacements.

Shots randomly phasing through ships would be aggravating.  I have seen players cry foul and throw tantrums (and occasionally abuse the arcade cabinet) when opponents abuse invulnerability frames in fighting games or whenever the player attacks first but the enemy ignores and hits the player in a hack-and-slash or beat-em-up game.  Or perhaps when your ship gets destroyed because the shot hit the hitbox but not the visible sprite.  I would imagine a player piloting a big ship, fires plasma cannon at a small target (fighter or frigate).  Shot was aimed perfectly and would cleanly hit the target, but if the shot phases through (due to random dice roll and no obvious sign like phase cloak), you can bet that the player will feel ripped off and maybe get angry.

P.S.  I have seen the suggestion of randomly phasing shots through fighters before (which I also oppose), but I do not remember seeing that suggested for frigates also before this topic.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Schwartz on November 03, 2018, 09:36:37 AM
Making the Retreat order not cost any CP would be a nice indirect way to boost frigate fleets.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2018, 09:46:29 AM
I guess I don't really consider it a tactical distinction because the player has no control over exactly how the AI form up

What I mean is, regardless of that, it offers the player different tactical opportunities on a second-to-second gameplay level. For example, it's going to  be easier to flank a line or possibly pounce on a ship that over-extends, etc. It just plays differently from a piloting point of view - which is what imo it's all about.

Yeah that sounds like a it would influence the issue a lot. Is that changing in .9?

Yes.

Also, probably relevant here - multiple retreat orders can  be given for 1 CP if they're given within the command frequency window.


I agree that forcing the player to split their fleet when they cannot effectively control it is bad. I just don't like that the best decision is more or less always the same currently.

I would like to see control points made more significant to make the advantage of splitting more significant. Maybe maybe the bonuses stronger but AOE so that there are actual positional considerations after you capture a point (that's probably been suggested before).

(It's funny, I had a sentence or two in my prior response about that but ended up deleting it just to keep it more on-point. The thing is, if you have more effecitve control, and then start requiring the player to use it all over the map, that's encouraging more babysitting, so it's not really great, either. "Splitting up" isn't an end goal, right, what matters is how it affects local tactics and overall battle flow.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 09:58:33 AM
About pursuit:

Before 0.8, I did not mind pursuit because my frigate or something is fast (from skills and Augmented Engines) and mostly unstoppable.  It was easy to kill everything fast.

Today, it is hard to kill everything reliably, and I risk losing ships if they are fast and small.  In my mind, why bother with manual cleanup when auto-resolve does it in much less time and no risk... and with ships otherwise ill-suited for combat?

As for pursuit battlespace, it often gives player a better position to kill various enemies than conventional battlespace (if player does not have any civilians), although it has the drawback of not offering you a pursuit round to mop them up.  However, it is mostly an early-game option since player will either eventually get civilians and/or grow his fleet too big later.

The only time I actually flee from combat and enter pursuit is when I try trader start with SO Hounds and Cerberus.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 10:03:01 AM
Also, probably relevant here - multiple retreat orders can  be given for 1 CP if they're given within the command frequency window.
Can't you do that already with retreat?  If you want to retreat a bunch of ships, you can order several with 1 CP today (I think) if no other orders (like capture) are given?

Your new feature should help make capturing all the points not eat all the CP at the start of the fight.  But, for retreating, it will not help if I have one ship warn about CR less, then 10 seconds later, another, then another 10 seconds, another, and repeat for about several more ships.  I probably have to wait a while until all ships are done complaining.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 03, 2018, 10:05:35 AM
P.S.  I have seen the suggestion of randomly phasing shots through fighters before (which I also oppose), but I do not remember seeing that suggested for frigates also before this topic.

It's a well known concept that has been implemented before in other space-based games, although as you say, usually with fighters. The reason is the same: So that they aren't instantly evaporated by larger, more powerful ships.

It needn't be a visual dodge, mind you. The shot could appear to be a hit, but in fact deal no damage, avoiding your enraged player scenario (clearly not universal as you seem to believe, since I for one wouldn't be put off by it); or if that's also too rage-inducing, then the damage of each medium or large ballistic or energy shot could simply be mitigated by a certain percentage.

In general, I prefer it when bigger ships can't obliterate smaller ones with impunity. In Starsector, generally the only way for a frigate to avoid that fate when there are destroyers and cruisers everywhere is to stay out of range entirely, or else in a blind spot like behind an Onslaught's engines. Unfortunately, in fleet battles, chances are good that something even nastier is behind that blind spot.

All that being said, I long since accepted that Starsector is a "bigger is always better" sort of spaceship game. In my view, that is a drawback, but hey: everything has downsides. There are many positive aspects of the game, significantly more than the negatives. Note that I'm personally not asking that frigates be buffed or rebalanced, but since someone is, I just wanted to weigh in.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 10:17:10 AM
Bigger is was not always better in all versions of Starsector.

During 0.6-0.62, you needed to solo everything with a Medusa, and the rest of your fleet is Atlas to scoop up excessive loot.  (That was because fleet size was determined by Logistics, and if you had no points in Fleet Logistics, you did not have enough to fully support a single battleship.)

During 0.65, the optimal fleet was the food run fleet, with two Hyperion and fifteen or so Altas.  If you want to bounty hunt, anything was good, but forty frigates were optimal due to burn speed.  Bounty hunting was done on the side between food runs, and you needed burn speed to not miss food runs.

During 0.7.x, you picked the one ship that could solo the enemy fleet most efficiently.  If it was small, a frigate or destroyer would do.  If it was a single endgame fleet, a cruiser.  If it was 100+ ship pileup from multiple fleets, Onslaught.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Schwartz on November 03, 2018, 11:14:38 AM
Bigger is was not always better in all versions of Starsector.

During 0.6-0.62, you needed to solo everything with a Medusa, and the rest of your fleet is Atlas to scoop up excessive loot.  (That was because fleet size was determined by Logistics, and if you had no points in Fleet Logistics, you did not have enough to fully support a single battleship.)

During 0.65, the optimal fleet was the food run fleet, with two Hyperion and fifteen or so Altas.  If you want to bounty hunt, anything was good, but forty frigates were optimal due to burn speed.  Bounty hunting was done on the side between food runs, and you needed burn speed to not miss food runs.

During 0.7.x, you picked the one ship that could solo the enemy fleet most efficiently.  If it was small, a frigate or destroyer would do.  If it was a single endgame fleet, a cruiser.  If it was 100+ ship pileup from multiple fleets, Onslaught.

That's what you did. I would wager 99% of players did not do this. Let's be fair and acknowledge that this is a fringe playstyle, yeah?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 11:24:50 AM
Maybe, maybe not.  Of course I say what I did, and it worked.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 03, 2018, 11:36:07 AM
Synthetic means like % dodge aren't really necessary. Frigates are already somewhat close to being viable, in a limited way.
For example, player piloted Tempest (best non-special frigate) can kill most front shielded non-carriers 1v1, including Onslaught (both skill-less). So it's not like their raw stats are universally lacking.

But you can't even try making lategame frigate fleet due to officers and ship slot limits. Plus AI obviously lacks finesse to pull off same feats and isn't likely to be improved to a degree where it could.

So I don't see why Alex insists on hobbling frigates so much (well, except performance...). They are not going to be that dominant either way due to AI, CR time and 2d plane itself - you can only pack frigates so dense before they interfere with each-other too much.
And that's even before thinking about purpose-built counters. Like multiple carriers protected by 4xTL Paragon.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 03, 2018, 11:45:35 AM
If I planned on using a frigate swarm, I would be sure to use Swarmers, Salamanders, or other (sustainable) homing missiles because they passthrough allies, and allow frigates stuck in the backline to do something.  Also probably more beam boats.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Goumindong on November 03, 2018, 11:49:01 AM
Shot phasing has value, but not really for frigates. Especially because there are a few dedicated defensive frigates which are meant to absorb attacks. It mainly has value for fighters because fighter swarms can eat volumes of fire that are meant for other ships while also reducing their value as an attack option. Solution there is to make shots at ships that are targeted phase through fighters (while shots at not targeted ships do not).

Letting ships retreat without cost would also have a lot of value. Or some sort of “standing order” system so that you could design a strategy doctrine that your fleet followed in the absence of other orders.

As would reducing the speed of Peaktime/CR decay when larger ships were around. (Which would especially make the defensive frigates more valuable). This could have unintended consequences though; safety overdrives could become much more valuable on frigates/small ships when the negative consequences were negated.

Other options might be to reduce recovery cost. You can always balance ship value by changing the recovery cost independent of the deployment point cost. (And you can do this in a number of ways. You can reduce the totals supplies to make redeploying frigates difficult to impossible but still cheap to deploy as an example. A lasher, for instance, could absorb 3 supply/month and have a 1 supply recovery cost with a 50% CR hit per deployment but still cost it’s normal 6 DP to deploy. If smaller ships were cheaper to deploy in terms of supply players would be encouraged to minimize fleet size for the targets they’re attacking.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Hiruma Kai on November 03, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
No ghost evasion, please!  That would be so aggravating, enough to smash a keyboard or screen in frustration!

I knew some people probably wouldn't like that particular suggestion, but that's a little extreme and I don't really understand why.

Starsector combat is skill based.  Sure, there's a strategic layer on top that determines what you can bring to combat.  But the heart of the game is how well you can pilot and command ships.  Generally if you've kept your CR up (which is basically under your control), the only bit of randomness is bullet spread, which is a minor issue.  If you introduce a completely random miss chance, which you literally have no control over, it becomes a different sort of game.  Its like changing from chess to roulette.  Its a fundamental shift in game philosophy.  And some people prefer chess to roulette.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: intrinsic_parity on November 03, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
(It's funny, I had a sentence or two in my prior response about that but ended up deleting it just to keep it more on-point. The thing is, if you have more effecitve control, and then start requiring the player to use it all over the map, that's encouraging more babysitting, so it's not really great, either. "Splitting up" isn't an end goal, right, what matters is how it affects local tactics and overall battle flow.)

Maybe it's my personal preference in games (I like RTS and strategy games in general), but I see this as strategic gameplay, not babysitting (to an extent). The CP system completely prevents true babysitting anyway and the new iteration of it shouldn't change that. Being severely limited on how often you can give orders means you can't depend on giving orders as a significant method of influencing the battle on a local/tactical scale. Instead of saying "splitting up", I would say "large scale fleet positioning". I think that giving fleet positioning meaning adds strategic depth to combat in a way that other combat mechanics don't. Right now there's no reason to do anything with your fleet other than 'form battle line', so that entire dimension of combat is unexplored. I think that giving the player interesting strategic choices is an end goal and this is a great way of achieving that.

If anything, I think the players ability to constantly pause and unpause the game is more likely to give rise to babysitting than positioning incentive.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 03, 2018, 04:14:05 PM
Starsector combat is skill based.  Sure, there's a strategic layer on top that determines what you can bring to combat.  But the heart of the game is how well you can pilot and command ships.  Generally if you've kept your CR up (which is basically under your control), the only bit of randomness is bullet spread, which is a minor issue.  If you introduce a completely random miss chance, which you literally have no control over, it becomes a different sort of game.  Its like changing from chess to roulette.  Its a fundamental shift in game philosophy.  And some people prefer chess to roulette.

I really don't see how knowing that some percentage of your giant death-ship's shots are going to miss tiny frigates changes this in any way. You know some are going to miss, right? Take that into account, and plan accordingly. It would still be a fully skill-based game, granted with a now very minor RNG element. A bit of RNG doesn't magically cause a game to stop being skill-based.

I'd see your point if this were a different game or perhaps a different game version, but while piloting a capital ship, I can effortlessly mulch frigates as an afterthought. It's not like it's some huge strategic and tactical victory when my Onslaught obliterates a few Lashers on its burn into the enemy formation; if anything, it's disappointing that they're little more than cannon fodder. If that's a chess game, it's one where the queen charges across the board gleefully kicking multiple pawns off the board in a single turn.

Also, in chess, even pawns are dangerous.

Still, I've gone on too long defending this suggestion, because I'm not really super-attached to it and can take it or leave it. I can accept that some or even a lot of people don't like it. I can't think of any other way (aside from a flat-out stat buff of some kind) to truly boost frigates though, and most of these indirect boost suggestions that involve supplies, recovery costs, retreat CP costs, etc. are all logistical in nature and can only have a very limited impact on their actual performance in combat.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 03, 2018, 04:32:55 PM
(As, you say, you're not married to the suggestion, but just to chime in, hopefully without feeling like I'm piling on: I think logically what you're saying makes sense, but it would feel horrible. A lot of the feel is about taking actions and having the game world react to them, right. If sometimes there's just no reaction, it would really take away from that.

You could probably have it feel better with a high-quality dodging animation, but it'd be hard to make that work given that you've already got some expectations for how ships are supposed to move. Basically, however you do it, it seems like it'd be tough to do without walking all over game-world behavior consistency.

If "stuff can just miss by passing through things" was an established mechanic used in many places, then it'd be ok consistency-wise, but I think then we'd have a game that has a much less "solid" and a more "floaty" feel to the ships.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 03, 2018, 05:42:49 PM
Not to worry. I have an exceptionally thick skin and don't mind being disagreed with. Besides, I'm aware that I've just returned to Starsector after more than two years away, and am boldly airing my opinions and suggestions after barely more than a week of playing. If anything, I salute everyone's tolerance of someone with a lot fewer hours spent playing the game. Some of these folks know enough about the game mechanics to release fully balanced ship mods, for example, which is above my pay grade.

I agree, it may very well end up feeling all wrong in practice. That's an area where I'm willing to defer to the game's developer and veteran players.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Solinarius on November 04, 2018, 12:33:16 AM
The one idea of fully recovering destroyed frigates is very intriguing. I think it fits, especially if the plan is to curb the beginning of a campaign for new players and to be nicer to frigates, in general.

An idea to funnel the use of frigates was pitched in the Discord. What if frigates could be deployed from the flanks, as in pursuits? What if in order to do this, you need to capture objectives?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 04, 2018, 01:11:18 AM
What if frigates could be deployed from the flanks, as in pursuits? What if in order to do this, you need to capture objectives?

To do what, be destroyed from a slightly different direction?

Okay, maybe that was a bit cheeky. I actually do like a lot of the creative logistical suggestions people are making.

Here's something that just occurred to me: Perhaps once player fleets reach a "medium" size, they could gain a special fleet slot that behaves much like a fighter slot in a carrier; the frigate placed within would behave almost exactly like an LPC. A "large" fleet would receive a second frigate slot.

If destroyed, they're always recovered, and there is no substantial cost to the player, but they cannot be redeployed again during that battle; if ordered to retreat (for 0 CP) and they survive, they can rapidly repair and be redeployed after a short delay.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Gothars on November 04, 2018, 02:34:55 AM
What if frigates could be deployed from the flanks, as in pursuits? What if in order to do this, you need to capture objectives?

To do what, be destroyed from a slightly different direction?

Okay, maybe that was a bit cheeky. I actually do like a lot of the creative logistical suggestions people are making.

Here's something that just occurred to me: Perhaps once player fleets reach a "medium" size, they could gain a special fleet slot that behaves much like a fighter slot in a carrier; the frigate placed within would behave almost exactly like an LPC. A "large" fleet would receive a second frigate slot.

If destroyed, they're always recovered, and there is no substantial cost to the player, but they cannot be redeployed again during that battle; if ordered to retreat (for 0 CP) and they survive, they can rapidly repair and be redeployed after a short delay.

I like the general idea, I'd just set it up a bit differently: Allow cruisers and above to equip a "escort tether" hullmod. That would grant them a slot in which a frigate could be put, erasing it from the normal fleet menu. That frigate then deploys automatically with the capital ship (without costing DP) and is on permanent escort duty. It is also automatically (i.e. for free) repaired and maintained by its mothership in between combat.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 04, 2018, 02:38:05 AM
I like the general idea, I'd just set it up a bit differently: Allow cruisers and above to equip a "escort tether" hullmod. That would grant them a slot in which a frigate could be put, erasing it from the normal fleet menu. That frigate then deploys automatically with the capital ship (without costing DP) and is on permanent escort duty. It is also automatically (i.e. for free) repaired and maintained by its mothership in between combat.

Wouldn't that cause frigates to be rebalanced for this new role (as in heavily nerfed), killing any semblance of viability on their own?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 04, 2018, 02:49:06 AM
Well, it would also tie the frigates down and prevent them from rushing objectives, although in the current vanilla late game those captures are usually quite temporary, since enemy fleets routinely field 10-12 destroyers and who knows how many frigates.

Besides: You can already deploy a frigate to escort every single ship in your fleet, as long as you alter your max fleet size in the game files. For better or worse, max fleet size can be set to whatever a player wants, so using deployment cost as a way to keep those tethered frigates balanced probably isn't an option, since that's a soft limitation.

The issue isn't whether or not frigates escorting cruisers is balanced (since they can already do that), but rather that it's annoying when they're so easily destroyed and you constantly have to replace or restore them. A couple of limited "un-destroyable frigate" slots would help to alleviate this, and frigates need not necessarily be nerfed, since the slots would after all be very limited.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Mr. Nobody on November 04, 2018, 03:16:54 AM
Dunno if it has already been said but maybe officers could be put to lead a squadron of some sort?
You put the officer on a frigate or other ship, that ship gets 100% of the officer bonuses
Then you can "attach" more frigates to that frigate and while they get an inferior bonus from the officer, they all behave as one cohesive unit (probably the hardest part coding wise).
Maybe the officer level (or another skill) could be used to determine how many frigates you can attach?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Phearlock on November 04, 2018, 09:40:41 PM
I'll just chip in and agree that with the opinion that: Any out-of-combat logistical changes will be exceedingly unlikely to change the desirability of frigates in combat. If you want frigates to be more desirable to use and replace in combat, they need some bonus rather than simply being cheaper outside of combat.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Hiruma Kai on November 05, 2018, 08:57:37 AM
I like the general idea, I'd just set it up a bit differently: Allow cruisers and above to equip a "escort tether" hullmod. That would grant them a slot in which a frigate could be put, erasing it from the normal fleet menu. That frigate then deploys automatically with the capital ship (without costing DP) and is on permanent escort duty. It is also automatically (i.e. for free) repaired and maintained by its mothership in between combat.

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I feel that is better handled by heavier fighter LPCs.  Fighters are already coded as tethered escorts on permanent escort duty.  As it is right now, I feel a LPC frigate would run into weird coding issues.  Like crew/cargo losses.  Is it fully automated now and doesn't cost any crew?  In terms of deployment, not all frigates are equal.  Would there be a DP cost (or an OP cost) difference when you use a Shepard vs a Hyperion in this slot?  Can the player take direct control over this escort frigate (negating the effective escort requirement) or is it more like a fighter?

I'll just chip in and agree that with the opinion that: Any out-of-combat logistical changes will be exceedingly unlikely to change the desirability of frigates in combat. If you want frigates to be more desirable to use and replace in combat, they need some bonus rather than simply being cheaper outside of combat.

I think there's only so many knobs you can turn in combat.  Any fundamental changes to frigates affects the entire game, not just end game fights involving battleships.

I see it this way, the knobs you have to turn are:

1) Offense (How quickly you send the enemy HP to zero)
2) Defense (How you keep your HP above zero)
3) And stuff that affects the other two indirectly, such as Movement and CR

Frigates already have their movement knob turned higher than other ship classes, so that is not much help (and the higher you turn that, the more twitch reflex reliant the game becomes - also you start running into AI perfectly dodging all your shots if you tune it really high).

So lets talk a look at defense.  In order to have a noticeable effect, we will have to turn knobs 1 and 2 by factors of 100%, not by 10%.  We already have that kind of variation (i.e. 10-50%) within the frigate class, and I think people are still complaining about the entire class of ships.  Doesn't matter how you get that 100% more durability (base flux, armor, hit point stats, some kind of 50% evasion, a global 50% damage resistance, etc), as in the end its all trying to just make them more durable.

If a Battleship destroys a frigate in say, 4 seconds, no one is going to notice a 0.4 second difference.  They might notice a 4 second difference (i.e. 8 second total) though.  However, that would throw off the early game a lot, increasing frigate vs frigate fight times by a factor of 2 (or more than 2, given the way shields and flux work when you back off).  In turn would also require a CR increase, probably a factor of 2-ish.  Would people be happy with factors of 2 or more change in the early game combat time?

Note that kind of durability is on par with destroyers.   It also means, two frigates should handily beat a destroyer (approximately equal damage output, higher speed, and twice the toughness).  Unless you also change destroyer defensive stats.

Each class of ship is roughly a factor of 2 in durability higher than the previous.  i.e. a Medusa has twice the shield capacity of a wolf, the Aurora has twice the capacity of a Medusa, and a Paragon has twice the capacity of an Aurora.  Hitpoints scale roughly that way as well, but armor interacts non-linearly.  So a typical frigate is like 1/16th of a battleship.  Changing that dynamic without also changing other ships along that chain I think will have unintended consequences. 

On the bright side, this is easy enough for anyone to test with a mod. Simplest thing to do is take the base spreadsheet and simply double the defensive numbers of all the frigates in the base game, see what happens, and come back and report.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 05, 2018, 09:47:14 AM
A frigate challenging larger ship in a durability match is going to lose deservedly. That's not how frigates win.

Defeating a larger ship usually involves one of:
- Get behind, where enemy has no shield/weapon coverage.
- Use up multiple your flux pools vs single enemy flux pool (by doing short vents close to enemy while also being able punish them if they try to vent on you in response).
- Or kill them by special abilities (phase cloak, Hyperion teleport).
There is only one exception where a frigate wins in straight up brawl vs some less efficient DE variants - LMG (SO) Lasher. Even it needs to get behind something like an optimized Hammerhead.

Anyway dodge chance is just a mechanic that rewards lousy play. I failed to dodge - I deserve to be hit. As simple as that. I don't want to win because I just got lucky. And want even less to be on the other side of such mechanic.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 05, 2018, 10:23:08 AM
The elephant in the room here is that CR and minuscule frigate peak performance times are what have created most of this situation to begin with.

It affects frigates disproportionately more than any other size class, as though they needed an additional disadvantage on top of having the overall least range, damage output, and defensive capability (phase frigates and the Hyperion are obvious exceptions). Far more powerful ships are barely affected by CR and peak performance, aside from having a bit more or less CR incremental bonus/malus. I hadn't played Starsector in almost three years until very recently, I'm playing on Normal, and I have yet to see a message that any of my capitals have exceeded their peak performance time. I've only seen it twice for any of my cruisers, during a 300:200 REDACTED battle, out of dozens and dozens of battles that I've fought since I began my latest campaign.

You guys can make big, elaborate lists of professional frigate strategies, but the reality is that most players are not Starsector board veterans with 5,000+ posts who've created 2-4 mods, and they simply are going to stop using frigates past the midgame because not everyone is a consummate expert at high-end frigate strategies. Your high-end expert strategies are irrelevant in this context, and I'm not saying that to be a butthead. I'm saying it to give you a reality check.

It may be that you, yourselves, want Starsector to be designed and balanced with people who are already experts at playing it in mind, but I question the wisdom of that approach.

And really, the opposite could as easily be true, logically speaking: Capital ships are big, massive, complicated, and unwieldy, they have tons of moving parts, they're loaded down with weapons, they have huge numbers of crew, etc. Perhaps THEIR peak operating times should be short, while frigates, being simple and lightweight, should have long peak operating times. This discussion has actually made me curious why it's not this way and what the logic is.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 05, 2018, 10:36:42 AM
It affects frigates disproportionately more than any other size class

As intended.
Frigates have speed advantage so if they decide to play waiting game, there is not much to stop them beside CR (and other frigates). Fighters are effectively very long range weapons, so they can't force fight if carrier can't keep up.

I have no problem with frigates having short operational time (at least on their own). I am against stuff that prevents them from being truly good even during that short time window (officer limit and slot limit at the very least).
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 05, 2018, 10:48:01 AM
Frigates have speed advantage so if they decide to play waiting game, there is not much to stop them beside CR (and other frigates). Fighters are effectively very long range weapons, so they can't force fight if carrier can't keep up.

Speed is their ONLY in-combat advantage (again, special frigates excepted), already balanced by being offensively and defensively weak. They don't need another disadvantage.

What does waiting accomplish, exactly? If anything, it must be during the early game, which isn't terribly important since we all know the early game with a handful of small ships isn't the meat of Starsector.

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that frigates have unlimited CR. They can now play the waiting game as much as they want to while I destroy the rest of their fleet, and then they'll be able to retreat and have the privilege of despawning at the nearest planet if my pursuers don't finish them off.

Sometimes I genuinely wonder if I'm playing the same game as the rest of you. What frigates do doesn't matter much in my endgame campaign unless they are player-piloted assassin phase ships (there's some value in using them as escorts, and limited value in using them to capture objectives, though I've found they'll very soon need backup when capturing), and that's what this thread is about: frigates in the endgame. Perhaps frigates' (and possibly also destroyers') peak performance time could increase with fleet size?

It could very well be that I'm ignorant about what a frigate waiting game would accomplish, and I mean that sincerely, so fill me in if I'm way off base.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 05, 2018, 11:13:19 AM
Speed is their ONLY in-combat advantage (again, special frigates excepted), already balanced by being offensively and defensively weak. They don't need another disadvantage.

What does waiting accomplish, exactly? If anything, it must be during the early game, which isn't terribly important since we all know the early game with a handful of small ships isn't the meat of Starsector.

Of course, to win you don't just wait. You lurk just outside enemy reach and pounce at anything that sticks out. In no CR times single player controlled Tempest could slowly and methodically grind down Hegemony Defense Fleet (largest fleet at that time, 2-3 Onslaught + rest to match, if I remember right).

It's not like player had to get it that perfect. Retreating on high damage to swap for next frigate would also have worked. Or use Hyperion(s) - perfectly piloted, it is unkillable while CR lasts (and you still can retreat on damage, if you mistake too much).

No CR promotes this kind of 'kite everyone to death' playstyle as optimal.

Even waiting in its pure form is actually useful (with AI as is) - like my single AI frigate keeping enemy Capital permanently distracted somewhere far from main battle.

Giving endless CR to AI frigates basically mandates them being too stupid to properly use it. While AI is obviously not quite there, creating a roadblock to later improvements doesn't seem a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2018, 11:47:10 AM
Of course, to win you don't just wait. You lurk just outside enemy reach and pounce at anything that sticks out. In no CR times single player controlled Tempest could slowly and methodically grind down Hegemony Defense Fleet (largest fleet at that time, 2-3 Onslaught + rest to match, if I remember right).
Classic Hegemony System Defense Fleets had three Onslaughts.

Even with CR, max skills Tempest and Afflictor could (barely) beat the fleet before malfunctions crippled them.  Of course, no CR made that even easier.

But back in the no CR days, you could auto-resolve every fight.  For late 0.5x, Player with max Leadership and Technology, and a big enough fleet, you can win any fight instantly instead of playing them out for several minutes.  Even save-scumming a few auto-resolves to optimize results was faster than fighting manually.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 05, 2018, 12:38:15 PM
No CR promotes this kind of 'kite everyone to death' playstyle as optimal.

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game. Advanced frigate kiting is only an issue for someone who knows the game backwards and forwards. Balancing the game around experts can harm the rest of it for people who are not experts, and I doubt I'm the first precocious newcomer to say so.

I've had the issue with no-CR frigates explained to me several times, yet in each case it's mentioned that it takes a long time to do. That's nearly the whole point of frigate-grade CR: It doesn't last as long as the amount of time required to pull off these min-maxed frigate kiting scenarios. I'd consider it far more optimal to finish the battle much faster with a normal fleet, not only in terms of less testing of my patience, but even in terms of use of resources and earning potential. If I can complete twice the bounties with a large fleet in the same amount of time, then tedious frigate kiting is in no way optimal.

Even if I concede that frigate kiting, if possible, is the optimal strategy from at least one point of view, why do it if it sucks the fun out of the game? I still use some ships that I consider to be sub-optimal, both for fun and to indirectly add a bit more challenge.

As for frigates waiting on the wings to pounce on and pick off vulnerable ships that are left exposed: That sounds fantastic to me, a very satisfying role for them to fill. You present it like it's a bad thing, but that would give them teeth, threat, and a real purpose, and add more dynamism to battles. Tell me where to sign, because I feel like a salesman just successfully sold me a new car.

Even waiting in its pure form is actually useful (with AI as is) - like my single AI frigate keeping enemy Capital permanently distracted somewhere far from main battle.

Well... yes, the AI's faults can be a significant issue. Finding ways to limit the player to indirectly help the AI is probably necessary, but there's a delicate balance to be maintained.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2018, 01:17:07 PM
Player kiting indefinitely is not as problematic as the AI doing likewise against the player.  Today, phase frigates can be untouchable until their CR times out.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 05, 2018, 01:39:54 PM
Player kiting indefinitely is not as problematic as the AI doing likewise against the player.  Today, phase frigates can be untouchable until their CR times out.

I've yet to encounter these scenarios, but to be fair, I was new to (the current version of) the game and was only properly able to notice more of the subtleties after I began getting used to everything basic and major, by which time my fleet was on the larger side.

In my late game (now abandoned for full-blown mod mode), untouchable frigates just ended up retreating after I'd blown up 90% of their fleet, so I don't see why that's problematic. Yes, if there are phase ships present, they'll often be among the ships beating a retreat. I don't consider it a problem for them to escape, though, aside from the slight disappointment of less salvage and maybe not being able to retrieve a disabled rare frigate.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 05, 2018, 01:42:19 PM
It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game. Advanced frigate kiting is only an issue for someone who knows the game backwards and forwards. Balancing the game around experts can harm the rest of it for people who are not experts, and I doubt I'm the first precocious newcomer to say so.

I've had the issue with no-CR frigates explained to me several times, yet in each case it's mentioned that it takes a long time to do. That's nearly the whole point of frigate-grade CR: It doesn't last as long as the amount of time required to pull off these min-maxed frigate kiting scenarios. I'd consider it far more optimal to finish the battle much faster with a normal fleet, not only in terms of less testing of my patience, but even in terms of use of resources and earning potential. If I can complete twice the bounties with a large fleet in the same amount of time, then tedious frigate kiting is in no way optimal.

Even if I concede that frigate kiting, if possible, is the optimal strategy from at least one point of view, why do it if it sucks the fun out of the game? I still use some ships that I consider to be sub-optimal, both for fun and to indirectly add a bit more challenge.

(Suggested reading (https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369).

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 05, 2018, 01:53:38 PM
If the enemy ship retreats, fine.  What I meant are those ships that constantly hover beyond your shot range (or can consistently withdraw from the fight after you put some hard flux on their shield), but will not retreat (but will gladly run down the CR clock for a mutual stalemate).  Phase ships are an obvious example, but not the only one.  There is a reason why enemy fleets are not allowed to have Timid officers.

Frigates are more of a problem earlier in the game when player does not have overwhelming offense.

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)
In Starsector's case when enemy had Timid officers, I sat and wait on the objective with my battleship until they, the ships with Timid officers, ran out of CR first, instead of me deploying more ships to 1) not add more deployment costs and 2) allow AI to deploy more ships to counter my reinforcements.

In fighting games, if I pick a high-tier character with a game-breaker move, I might play around with more fun and flashy moves, but if I start losing, out comes the game-breaker spam, and I win.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 06, 2018, 02:33:35 AM
(Suggested reading (https://www.designer-notes.com/?p=369).

That was a very nice read. If I may, the summary echoes my own sentiment:

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game.

Quote from: Soren Johnson
However, designers can go too far by trying to remove all exploits from a game. Often, the right choice depends upon the game’s context. Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play? Does the degenerate strategy create an endless grind, or is it a quick shortcut for players who need a little help? ... If possible, designers should provide the ability to turn an exploit on or off, giving the players control over their worst instincts.

I'm in no way attempting to cherry-pick just this one statement, only pointing out that it's included. In Starsector, the CR mechanics are not optional and are insinuated into every aspect of gameplay, especially the skill system.

And a quick example that would likely affect even a player that's not particularly into minimaxing - let's say you're in trouble and the only way to win and avoid a fleet wipe is to use this tactic. It'll take you an hour, it's not particularly fun, and it's not particularly difficult; it mainly requires patience. A lot of people would feel forced to do it, even if they didn't want to to begin with. And this sort of thing will creep in all over the place; if the design makes it optimal, successful strategies will naturally lean in that direction.)

Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

I hear you, and respect your opinion, but you're also the developer of the game. You're very close to your own project, which is something that's worth keeping in mind. Even the article you linked mentions that a developer may not truly understand his own game until it's released in the wild, and the Starsector boards... well, the board regulars are clearly a very dedicated group of fans. I myself am a space, strategy, and simulation freak, and have been since I first played Wing Commander in 1990. This bunch of folks isn't representative of the general public, although that being said, I certainly wouldn't advocate developing the game for the least common denominator of player, either.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: TaLaR on November 06, 2018, 03:08:13 AM
Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

This part I can agree with. I think 0 CR could be less severe than death by spontaneous explosions http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13712.0 .
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 06, 2018, 08:57:44 AM
That was a very nice read. If I may, the summary echoes my own sentiment:

It's not necessary (and rarely desirable) to try to cork every possible way for a very experienced player to exploit the game—at least not a single-player, offline game.

Quote from: Soren Johnson
However, designers can go too far by trying to remove all exploits from a game. Often, the right choice depends upon the game’s context. Does the exploit drown out all other play styles, or is it a fun, alternative way to play? Does the degenerate strategy create an endless grind, or is it a quick shortcut for players who need a little help? ... If possible, designers should provide the ability to turn an exploit on or off, giving the players control over their worst instincts.

I'm in no way attempting to cherry-pick just this one statement, only pointing out that it's included. In Starsector, the CR mechanics are not optional and are insinuated into every aspect of gameplay, especially the skill system.

The thing is, "infinite kiting" is a prime example of an exploit that "drowns out other ways to play" and "creates an endless grind". I'll also note that peak time/CR degradation was not in place at first, and was added as a result of it - in practice - being a boring and dominant way to play. I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.

Basically, that paragraph/section is a "don't take this as an absolute" kind of thing; less "summary" and more "disclaimer". The mechanic we're talking about here - infinite kiting - is exactly the sort of thing the rest of the article is about.


Your chosen solution has been to cause a warship to break down after four to six minutes in combat, give or take. I find it to be a very artificial solution. Although realism arguments with regard to computer games are often used to support someone's opinion or preferences and not out of any true desire to see more (or less) realism in the game being discussed, nevertheless, I can genuinely say I've found this silly from the moment I started playing Starsector 0.8.1a. I don't remember what I thought about previous versions in years past, as it's been too long.

(Edit: that's just an entirely different conversation to whether infinite kiting is a problem.)
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 06, 2018, 10:58:09 AM
I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.

Yes, but for the most part that feedback has come from a very small group of players who've played the game for hundreds or even thousands of hours. I've played the game three times: once in 2014, again in 2016, and now once more in 2018. Each time, I played until I had a giant fleet, and at no stage of any of those playthroughs did I engage in frigate kiting, think about frigate kiting, or feel forced to frigate kite. Did I miss a short window of compulsory frigate kiting?

Just as a bit of proof that I'm not blowing smoke here:

Spoiler
(http://puu.sh/BXmV1/242cd2a656.png)
[close]

Basically, that paragraph/section is a "don't take this as an absolute" kind of thing; less "summary" and more "disclaimer". The mechanic we're talking about here - infinite kiting - is exactly the sort of thing the rest of the article is about.

I disagree. I think that saddling the entire frigate class (and to a lesser extent, the destroyer class) with a sweeping universal disadvantage that doesn't practically affect cruisers or capitals except possibly in the most absurd and/or terminally end-game situations (fighting multiple large fleets back-to-back, battlestation fights) in order to address a single exploit—namely the possibility of a handful of frigate loadout combinations and strategies devised by veterans to efficiently kite—is just exactly what that disclaimer is talking about.

Yeah, okay, even a newcomer may be faced with a situation where the only way to win is to kite, but he could retreat, or (much more likely) just reload the game. In the simulator, I've tested some destroyer vs. destroyer loadouts and become bored to tears because neither of us could finish the other off. The AI's excellence at smugly and near-perfectly micromanaging its flux and shields can create those situations. It was just kiting and backpedaling for a good 4-5 minutes. CR or no CR, I'm leaving that battle one way or the other, and it's not going to be by kiting back and forth for an hour until I finally win, in the simulator or the campaign.

Of course, Starsector isn't the only game to see sweeping changes to its fundamental game mechanics in order to prevent kiting. Kiting is so well known as a concept that we all already know what it is, and need no introduction. Balancing around kiting prevention is not a philosophy I approve of in general, but at the same time, I acknowledge that it's a complicated issue with no easy answer. As someone who's never felt compelled to identify the most optimal and efficient strategy and then use it to the exclusion of all others, I realize that I'm an odd bird, and I have difficulty seeing things from that point of view. That doesn't mean I wallow in inefficiency on purpose, but at the same time, I don't obsess with identifying every little weakness and exploitable mechanic and then ruthlessly abusing them to the utmost.

Look, I knew before delving into this conversation that it was a losing battle. CR is here to stay, whether I like it or not. The game's moddable, though, so I suppose people who really dislike CR could make a mod that multiplies everything's peak performance by 10. The funny thing is, I had almost entirely stopped using frigates and destroyers without even thinking about what I was doing, and not even because of CR. They were simply obsolete. The fact that they beep at me and start to fall apart during extended battles (this was rare until the endgame) just adds insult to injury, and that's the point of this thread. Without this thread, I never would have thought twice about it.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 06, 2018, 11:37:13 AM
I really don't see the issue of frigates becoming obsolete (or just less useful) in the late game. Is it because of a preference for faster ships? There are some fast destroyers in the game, even more if you mod it.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Grievous69 on November 06, 2018, 11:53:41 AM
Me neither... It's prectically impossible to balance the game so that every aspect that comes into gameplay is viable at every stage of the game, be it ships, weapons or something else. As shown by these 7 pages, everyone has their playstyle, it's hard to please new players and hard core players at the same time while not making the game unfun. If I were Alex, I'd just ignore the random ramblings and balance the game the way I feel is right, except when 99% of the playerbase is yelling at you but even that is just a number on forums. I've seen examples when vocal minority wanted something so bad, then the game got even worse in terms of balance.

Anyways I truly appreciate Alex chiming into every other thread and saying his opinions, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying if I were him I'd go slightly insane from reading so much arguments then questioning my own decisions.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Alex on November 06, 2018, 12:04:07 PM
I was just trying to convey why approaching design from a "don't fix exploits, the players will do what's fun anyway" standpoint (which you approximately expressed a few posts back) is not a good idea, on a conceptual level. Infinite kiting/peak time is just a handy example (though as you say, you disagree).

As far as peak time - look at it from another perspective, perhaps - peak time allows a bunch of fun things to exist that would otherwise not exist. Safety Overrides, player-piloted phase ships, the Hyperion, and, ironically, frigates that are more powerful than they would likely otherwise be. To varying degrees, all of these things would be game-breaking otherwise.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: FooF on November 06, 2018, 03:12:20 PM
CR is here to stay and I'm fine with that. It's arbitrary, sure, but it's part of gameplay landscape at this point and as Alex said, you can balance around it. It's not like there aren't ways of increasing peak time or ways of decreasing the drain of CR once you go over it. Hardened Subsystems exists if you want them to last longer.

I'll relate this to one of my favorite games of all time: The Freespace franchise (namely the sequel). In the early game, a Cruiser (akin to a Frigate in SS) had some nasty anti-fighter weaponry and occasionally a heavy beam weapon that could put the hurt on bigger things. You avoided them unless you were in a bomber or had your own Cruiser to deal with them. However, once Corvettes (Cruisers) and Destroyers (Capitals) started hitting the field, those Cruisers weren't worth much. They were too fragile and didn't have enough firepower to compete. Then the Juggernauts came in (Super-Capitals) and the Cruisers would last seconds. It's just the scale of the game. You just didn't deploy Cruisers against Juggernauts and expect to win no matter how many you deployed or how much faster a Cruiser was than a Juggernaut.

SS is much more arcade-y than Freespace (which was a sim) but the same rationale follows. Frigates have their place but not against Capitals except as annoyances and opportunists. They don't need to be relevant unless, again, there's some kind of mechanic that makes fast/maneuverable ships valuable to some greater tactical goal.

Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Schwartz on November 06, 2018, 05:26:05 PM
The thing is, "infinite kiting" is a prime example of an exploit that "drowns out other ways to play" and "creates an endless grind". I'll also note that peak time/CR degradation was not in place at first, and was added as a result of it - in practice - being a boring and dominant way to play. I hear what you're saying re: being close to the project and so on; however this is definitely a change that was driven by player feedback regarding what was actually happening in the game.
I find this very strange. Did a lot of players actually do this pre 0.65? Because the thought of soloing and kiting puts me to sleep. Hell, reward it, and I'm still not gonna do it. I get where that game theory article wanted to go in regards to unfun but successful tactics, but at the same time I think it's drinking its own kool-aid a little too much. Not every player falls into their own un-fun trap. Not every mechanic that fits the theme is exploited at large. It depends a lot on the game and what else there is to play around with.

We do see kiting and similar tactics still in the game. Peekaboo games happen a lot with frigates, especially early on. It's tedious, but everybody should play to their advantage (The AI actually does this more than me!). We see this still with phase ships, where in the worst case scenario you don't even get to interact with the Afflictor beyond some maneuvering to try and usher the thing to move in a certain direction. Once CR dries up, you can one-shot it. Do I want phase ships gone? Hell no. I think phase is still a mechanic looking for an elegant solution.

Like I said earlier, I don't think frigates have a problem. They are viable late-game, they just can't slug it out or wait it out. And they shouldn't be able to. One issue I see is that the officer limit makes 10 combat ships ideal. 10 combat ships resembles a capital-cruiser-destroyer fleet, more or less. What if we gave fleets the ability to gather frigates into squadrons of 2 or 3? One ship gets the officer and the buffs, the other(s) assume the officer's temperament and a percentage of the buffs? They could even work as functional teams in combat.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cik on November 06, 2018, 05:38:33 PM
frigate squadrons seems to be the popular suggestion. i don't think there is anything wrong with it.

just making objectives actually matter would do a pretty decent job of making them at least worth deploying, even if they continue to have no tactical maneuverability and/or standoff worth considering.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 06, 2018, 06:20:38 PM
If infinite kiting works best, I do not hesitate to use it.  That is what I did with Medusa in early 0.6.  It had unlimited PPT, and combined with hull regeneration from old Damage Control 10, it was mostly indestructible.  It was degenerate and stale, yet... fun, because I like controlling an overpowered godship that can obliterate the enemy unfairly.

In one 0.7.x release, when enemy had Timid officers, I solo'ed whole fleets, and the AI did not over-deploy if I only deploy one ship.  If I encountered Timid enemy, stalling until it ran out of CR was optimal.  If I deployed reinforcements, then I pay more deployment costs and the enemy deploys more ships that might overwhelm the flagship and/or pick off my reinforcements.  Deploying just because I have no patience and could not wait another ten to thirty minutes before Timid enemies self-destructed was stupid.

P.S.  When Salamanders became unlimited, and Fast Missile Racks was still unlimited, I spammed infinite Salamanders from Venture or Doom with glee, and the missiles killed everyone beyond fog-of-war.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 06, 2018, 09:33:02 PM
If infinite kiting works best, I do not hesitate to use it.

Unless frigate kiting is just as fast as slugging it out with a proper fleet, one can hardly describe it as being the objectively best strategy.

It stands to reason that frigate kiting is slower, because 1.) the mechanic used to kill frigate kiting strategies is essentially a timer, and 2.) a proper fleet has far more damage output.

However, I haven't yet received a definitive answer. So, here is a definitive question: Is frigate kiting slower than using a proper fleet?
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: intrinsic_parity on November 06, 2018, 09:43:08 PM
Speed is not the issue. Frigate kiting costs very few supplies, and has almost zero risk, as opposed to a full fleet battle with substantial deployment cost and recovery cost, as well as the (substantial) risk of losing ships that are quite valuable. If you lose 2 frigates and a destroyer, thats probably 80-100k credits to replace with all weapons etc, plus the time searching to find suitable hulls and weapons. That is a very substantial portion of any bounty payment, so mitigating that risk is well worth some time investment from an 'optimum play' perspective. For endgame bounties, you can easily lose much more than that in a fleet battle, so the risk/reward equation is quite simple.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 06, 2018, 10:51:21 PM
Speed is not the issue. Frigate kiting costs very few supplies, and has almost zero risk, as opposed to a full fleet battle with substantial deployment cost and recovery cost, as well as the (substantial) risk of losing ships that are quite valuable. If you lose 2 frigates and a destroyer, thats probably 80-100k credits to replace with all weapons etc, plus the time searching to find suitable hulls and weapons. That is a very substantial portion of any bounty payment, so mitigating that risk is well worth some time investment from an 'optimum play' perspective. For endgame bounties, you can easily lose much more than that in a fleet battle, so the risk/reward equation is quite simple.

This makes very little sense to me, because as far as I can tell, only bad players lose proper endgame fleet battles. After all, I'm an inexperienced and probably very average player playing on Normal, and yet I obliterate all enemy fleets, including 3:2 REDACTED battles in which I'm badly outnumbered, as though they were made of tissue paper. When I transferred my save to Nexerelin on Normal (to explore its features and experiment with some of the ship and weapon mods I installed; soon, I'll start over with a new character), for some reason I began winning fleet battles even more handily than I had before, with the same fleet. I had to double-check my save info to make sure I hadn't accidentally enabled Easy mode.

I'm not saying that I never lose a ship, but it's rare, and winning battles 2-4x faster than I could with frigate kiting earns me far more profit (and reputation, and experience, etc.) than frigate kiting ever would.

Bad players resorting to kiting to win is the absolute opposite of a reason to try to eliminate kiting. Very few games should ever be balanced around the exploits that bad players might resort to, except possibly multiplayer online games.

I know this is a very brash and bold post, and that tone doesn't always convey well over the Internet, but a disclaimer: I'm very calm. I'm not trying to go in for an argument-based killshot here. However, if you were trying to convince me that frigate kiting is a huge problem that required sweeping changes to prevent, at the moment I'm only leaning even more toward believing that it isn't.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Thaago on November 06, 2018, 11:47:02 PM
The issue lies not in late game fleets (which you are correct are basically invulnerable) but in early game contests where a properly tuned, fast player ship can take on huge fleets of frigates and destroyers (and even cruisers).

The problem is the combination of:
a) kiting and grinding the enemy down lets you win fights you otherwise would have no hope of winning without a fast kiting ship. If you can dart in with a wolf and get a single shot in on armor/hull before retreating yourself, you will win without trouble. This is a strategy that lets the player win impossible fights early, catapulting them into the mid and late game. This could be done either purely solo, or with a couple of similar speed tuned flanking buddies.
b) it is an incredibly tedious and boring strategy, once you have the piloting skill. (Its pretty exciting the first time you pull it off, but not the third.)

Its not a bad player exploit, but the dominant early game good player strategy (that can get the player out of impossible jams). Trading boring real world time for the best strategy is imo poor gameplay.

Also, to re-emphasize cause its been a bit lost in the thread, but CR doesn't just stop kiting: it allows for drastically different ship types by trading time for power.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 07, 2018, 01:55:35 AM
The issue lies not in late game fleets (which you are correct are basically invulnerable) but in early game contests where a properly tuned, fast player ship can take on huge fleets of frigates and destroyers (and even cruisers).

The problem is the combination of:
a) kiting and grinding the enemy down lets you win fights you otherwise would have no hope of winning without a fast kiting ship. If you can dart in with a wolf and get a single shot in on armor/hull before retreating yourself, you will win without trouble. This is a strategy that lets the player win impossible fights early, catapulting them into the mid and late game. This could be done either purely solo, or with a couple of similar speed tuned flanking buddies.
b) it is an incredibly tedious and boring strategy, once you have the piloting skill. (Its pretty exciting the first time you pull it off, but not the third.)

Yeah, it sounds like it was incredibly tedious and took a long time. It also sounds as though playing the game normally would have required only a somewhat larger time investment—except that the time spent would have been a whole lot more enjoyable, and thus (in my mind) a much better investment overall.

From my point of view, deliberately choosing to spend ten hours being bored and frustrated instead of spending fifteen hours having fun to reach the very same point (the midgame of Starsector, in this case) is incomprehensible. That puts me at a disadvantage in this conversation, and I truly wish that I could understand. That's not meant to be some lame insult; I just don't get it. I'm aware some people are that way, but it's beyond my understanding.

I mean, Starsector is a great game, right? How many other games like Starsector exist out there in this day and age? Why would anyone be in such a hurry to rush through as quickly as possible? Surely you're better off taking your time and enjoying it. It seems to me that many of you equate "best" with "shortest amount of time." Is this game a chore to you? Even if you just want to get to the midgame quickly, there are mods that will get you there in 0 hours. Modding really isn't worse than deliberately exploiting the game, and is much faster.

Trading boring real world time for the best strategy is imo poor gameplay.

That's true, and it's why I wouldn't do it even if it were still possible, nor would I consider it to be the best strategy.

A game's developer need not plug every potential exploit in order for me to recognize which mechanics can be exploited and avoid exploiting them. I consider games a sort of partnership between myself and the developer: They're building me a world, and I'm agreeing to have fun in their world. I have no wish to identify all the ways the game can be broken, and then break it. That isn't a condemnation of people who do like to identify and exploit weaknesses; it's their game, they can and should play it however they enjoy doing so (although, I don't always like being affected by design decisions that cater to them).

One interesting thing to note about the article Alex linked is that the earlier Civilization games (plus Alpha Centauri), despite not physically preventing players from exploiting certain mechanics if they choose to, are still considered the pinnacle of the series by the great majority of longtime fans. Alpha Centauri in particular is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the entire 4X genre, and has never been surpassed. It's still installed on my computer, I play it single-player and PBEM (with a bunch of Brazilian guys, oddly enough) every year, and yes, it can easily be exploited by experts... but we don't.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 07, 2018, 04:47:26 AM
Because there are players where winning is the only thing that matters, and if a choice must be made between fun and optimal, they choose optimal, even if it hurts.  They do not necessarily need to be min-max junkies to do it.

As for mods, I tend to prefer no mod play in Starsector.  I occasionally play with them, but if I do not play Starsector very much, I want Starsector to stand on its own two feet.  I have played few games before that needed mods to be good.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Cyan Leader on November 07, 2018, 05:44:56 AM
How about large stations (or absurdly very large boss carriers) that have frigates work as "fighters"? Could be a way to keep them around in the lategame.

Edit: I also strongly agree with Blaine. I understand that some are compelled to min-max but I really don't think most players give up on potential other ways to enjoy the game just because it isn't optimal. Take a game like Dark Souls for example. It's really easy to cheese a lot of the content if you summon people, which would give you the most damage and it's the easiest and safest way to go through the content, but a lot of people don't summon and even limit themselves to using poor weapons or not using shields because that adds new elements to the game that they enjoy. Others experiment starting with different areas and to the extreme of that you have people running SL1 NG+ runs. Point is that there are massive communities out there playing the game in ways they enjoy the most (people playing RTS games with no rush rulesets, roleplaying, speedrunning in general) and I don't think these options simply disappear from a game because it simply isn't "optimal", whatever the criteria you are running to define that.

In my opinion this is an issue for multiplayer games to tackle, in which most people will try to optimize and thus suffers heavily if the best way to play the game is dull. Starsector, on the other hand, just needs to have a good balance in which most options are at least enjoyable and desirable.

Edit2: It'd also like to add that I sometimes do runs without CR on (or when I chain deploy) and kiting never got old to me. I thoroughly enjoy taking down a large fleet while being severely outgunned, it's exciting and fun all the time due to the different ships I run and face. To each their own but to minimize that to "tedious and boring" is just odd to me.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Blaine on November 07, 2018, 10:14:25 PM
Another example would be classic computer RPGs like Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate/II. In those games, you could order your party to rest at any time, restoring hit points and spell uses per day. There was nothing physically preventing people from resting as much as they pleased, so some players would go all-out in every combat encounter, blow all their spells, etc., and just rest after each battle. No doubt some would have considered that the "optimal" way to play. I never did that. I tried to go as long as I possibly could without resting, conserving my spells, and playing as cautiously and tactically as I could, until finally being forced to rest. I knew that resting could be abused, but didn't.

Since some players will apparently abuse any available exploit, J.E. Saywer, project lead of Pillars of Eternity at Obsidian Entertainment, deliberately designed their Baldur's Gate successor with "camping supplies" and other mechanics that limited resting when away from safe zones. I won't delve too deeply into the specifics, but I felt that this decision harmed the overall gameplay and created a new and undesirable meta-game aspect.

Anyway, I just hope that if Alex ever does decide frigates are lacking and in need of a more substantial role in Starsector's endgame, he'll find some good ideas in this thread or another one, regardless of what form those changes take.
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Linnis on November 11, 2018, 06:26:25 PM
Sure Tempest or medusa vs whole fleet can be fun and arguably an alternative gameplay to what Alex seem to force on us with CR. But some restrictions also help alot with the immersion. The "camping mechanic" you mentioned is in alot of games nowadays too to create a sense of urgency. Only when implemented badly it can create boring abusive strategies.

Also, solo ship vs whole fleet can be fun for 50 or so hours. But it gets old fast. Lots of ships fighting in both sides is much more fun, while the player still has huge power to chain wipe fleets.

Frigates are fine in late game in the current release. I use them all the time as they provide for good distractions and is cheap to field and maintain with industry perks. Only down side is always having to refit them and they getting in the way of your big guns occasionally.



Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: Megas on November 11, 2018, 06:51:49 PM
The only problem with soloing is the time it takes to resolve fights.  In 0.65, I start with a small fleet and soloing was optimal with small Logistics limit, until later when I get Leadership 10 and max Logistics, then can use forty frigate horde of doom.  0.7 killed that (with 25 ship fleet cap and super-skilled officers), and soloing was the best way (for resource conservation), but it took time to finish fights (about fifteen to twenty minutes, if enemy did not have Timid officers.  With Timid officers, over an hour).
Title: Re: Bring frigates back to the late game.
Post by: craftomega on November 30, 2018, 08:10:31 PM
So I skimmed most of this thread and I know I am late to the party. There is one suggestion I did not see.

Wolfpack/Escort Groups.
"An Escort Group consisted of several small warships organized and trained to operate together providing protection for trade convoys."

You treat a group of frigates like 1 cruiser. They get 1 officer and 1 slot in the fleet. You can then swap out each ship like you would a weapon. You could then add more advanced tactics such as flanking and cycling.