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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Null Ganymede on May 28, 2018, 07:42:52 AM

Title: Fleet compositions
Post by: Null Ganymede on May 28, 2018, 07:42:52 AM
To minimize save scumming you gotta win. To not run out of supplies and fuel, you gotta win with as few ships as possible. Let's make a list of some fleet compositions that do so, and explain why those composition works.

I'll start with some vanilla ships that are still competitive in Nexerelin/modded play-throughs. These are ways to jump into combat without having to bootstrap it via exploration.

(Early-Game) SO Flagship
Spoiler

Safety Overrides gives you mobility and flux dominance versus everything you face early. Mobility lets you do silly things like use kinetic point defense weapons for DPS, like so:

(https://i.imgur.com/nViTpE4.png)

With points in the combat tree you can solo early 40k pirate bounties in a Lasher. This works best on ships with lots of guns or Accelerated Ammo Feeder, otherwise you can't kill much before CR runs out.
[close]

(Mid-Game) Condor Missile Massacre
Spoiler
Basically, you're going for synergy and extreme point efficiency to make up for a re-purposed freighter's weakness.

  • Condors are 2 fighter bays and 1 medium missile with Fast Racks, for 10 points. Mid-tech fighters do kinetic damage, Pilum LRMs do explosive, it's a match made in heaven.
  • Frigates are 3% ECM each (with ECM mod) for ~5 points. ECM range reduction completely throws off the AI, making your ships more confident and the enemy less. Most importantly, 3 levels in the ECM skill also gives you the ECCM mod which brings us to...
  • Salamanders. Without ECCM or skills they're annoying but unreliable, with either they're agile enough to get around shields and out-track PD. They have good synergy with fighter distractions, ensure LRM hits, and give your flagship easy targets to shoot.

So your carriers provide the kinetic and explosive damage. Your frigates provide ECM to keep the enemy AI off your carriers, while throwing Salamanders into the fighter + LRM swarm. The end result looks a lot like this: easy flanks on flamed out ships with missile and fighter support rolling in.

(https://i.imgur.com/t9lluWH.png)

The skill investment is quite low (3 points in ECM + probably extra officers since missile and fighter skills are amazing) so you've got plenty of room to branch out from the base composition.

Starting with a Hegemony commission in a Nexerelin playthrough, level 1 start, no exploration; here's what 6 months looks like.

(https://i.imgur.com/vqTjjeP.png)

The frigates are pretty interchangeable, as are any specialist ships you eventually pick up. The Condors are really the core of the fleet. (Probably need 2x as many of them, grew the frigates without buying more Condors.)
[close]

So, what other fleets hit way above their weight class? (Ideally, with minimal player skill investment to allow for some customization.)
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: MajorTheRed on May 28, 2018, 08:43:52 AM
A really different way to play for me. I will give it a try. Most of the time my fleet is always formed by self-sufficient ships instead of relying on support from eachothers and I never been found of SO.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Sarissofoi on May 28, 2018, 11:15:13 AM
Interesting.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on May 28, 2018, 11:52:29 AM
I think this is the best one can do with a Lasher: full Melee SO(add caps/vents if HS is unavailable)
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/S4V2F20.png)
[close]

When player piloted it can solo about any DE (both sides skill-less, including optimized DE variants better than ones present in sim). Can also handle weaker Cruiser variants.
Though vanilla pirates and remnants are so weak that you'd get better mileage out of similar non-SO variant against them.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 28, 2018, 04:39:08 PM
To minimize save scumming you gotta win. To not run out of supplies and fuel, you gotta win with as few ships as possible. Let's make a list of some fleet compositions that do so, and explain why that composition works.

It would be nice to have a list of early and mid-game fleet compositions, not just capitals or "carriers lol".

I'll start with some vanilla ships that are still competitive in Nexerelin/modded play-throughs.


(Early-Game) SO Flagship
Spoiler

Safety Overrides gives you mobility and flux dominance versus everything you face early. Mobility lets you do silly things like use kinetic point defense weapons for DPS, like so:

(https://i.imgur.com/nViTpE4.png)

With points in the combat tree you can solo early 40k pirate bounties in a Lasher. This works best on ships with lots of guns or Accelerated Ammo Feeder, otherwise you can't kill much before CR runs out.
[close]

(Mid-Game) Condor Missile Massacre
Spoiler
Basically, you're going for synergy and extreme point efficiency to make up for a re-purposed freighter's weakness.

  • Condors are 2 fighter bays and 1 medium missile with Fast Racks, for 10 points. Mid-tech fighters do kinetic damage, Pilum LRMs do explosive, it's a match made in heaven.
  • Frigates are 3% ECM each (with ECM mod) for ~5 points. ECM range reduction completely throws off the AI, making your ships more confident and the enemy less. Most importantly, 3 levels in the ECM skill also gives you the ECCM mod which brings us to...
  • Salamanders. Without ECCM or skills they're annoying but unreliable, with either they're agile enough to get around shields and out-track PD. They have good synergy with fighter distractions, ensure LRM hits, and give your flagship easy targets to shoot.

So your carriers provide the kinetic and explosive damage. Your frigates provide ECM to keep the enemy AI off your carriers, while throwing Salamanders into the fighter + LRM swarm. The end result looks a lot like this: easy flanks on flamed out ships with missile and fighter support rolling in.

(https://i.imgur.com/t9lluWH.png)

The skill investment is quite low (3 points in ECM + probably extra officers since missile and fighter skills are amazing) so you've got plenty of room to branch out from the base composition.

Starting with a Hegemony commission in a Nexerelin playthrough, level 1 start, no exploration; here's what 6 months looks like.

(https://i.imgur.com/vqTjjeP.png)

The frigates are pretty interchangeable, as are any specialist ships you eventually pick up. The Condors are really the core of the fleet. (Probably need 2x as many of them, grew the frigates without buying more Condors.)
[close]

So, what other fleets hit way above their weight class? (Ideally, with minimal player skill investment to allow for some customization.)

4

So before i get into my Fleet Compositions that I use lets talk about making these better.

To start with the Lasher. That is a perfectly good Lasher build in total but it is set up incorrectly. The LAGs you've got should not be in the hardpoints but rather should be in the turrets. And the LMG's in the front should be on the hardpoints. The reason for this twofold. The second is the most important IMO

1) The LMGs will prioritize missiles since they're PD and you want them shooting at your target instead. If they're on the turret then they will be more likely to do this.

2) When LAGs are on the hardpoints they will not hit the same point in armor. Additionally on thin ships which point their nose at you, like a Wolf, you will end up splitting the ship entirely, either getting zero or only 1 LAG on target. When the LAGs are on the turrets they will both hit the same point on the enemy ship, stripping armor and hull a lot faster. This problem does not exist for the LMG's because shields extend the width of ships when they're active, letting you hit the shields with the LMGs regardless of whether or not you would otherwise split the target ship.

___________

Your missile spam setup is really inefficient you can almost certainly do it easier/better. Most small missiles when moving up to their "pod" version get about 4 times better. A Harpoon MRM launcher has 3 shots 1 at a time, a Pod has 12 shots, 4 at at time. 4 times the ammo, 4 times the volley.

The Salamander does not. The pod version launches 2 missiles at the same interval as the regular version. So a medium slot here doesn't give you any particular advantage. Rather you should be looking for getting the most of Small + medium x 2 for the lowest supply cost.

Brawlers are OK (2 for 4), Drams are similar (1 for 2), Hecates are good (2 for 3), Lashers are ok(2 for 4), Kites are Great(2 for 2). You could fit. You could fit 2.5 more salamanders per supply cost in your deployment by loading up on Kites! Vigilance is pretty good with the 2 for 5 plus a bonus.

Mercury Class Shuttles however, are king... with 3 universal slots for 2 supply/deployment. Granted they can't quite fit ECCM and ECM... but its still the top of the line. With Mercury Class Shuttles you could fit 15 Salamanders in the same space you're using for 4.

If you're willing to go up a class the Buffalo MK II is actually pretty efficient. At 5 Salamanders for 4 supply. It also has space for ECM and you can fit a tactical laser for rangefinding (and maybe some PD and other things so you don't get wrecked by Harpoons
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Null Ganymede on May 28, 2018, 09:44:27 PM
Good fleet compositions still work with sub-optimal weapons/hulls. Even if you're unlucky with item drops, you should still have a solid baseline to chew through enemies with. This way the fleet is still cost effective if you're lugging along overly specialized hulls because you thought they were cool, or want to customize stuff to your personal style.

For example, there's a ton of ways to make early game SO setups with low loiter time but very low time-to-kill work:

Ditto for optimizing Salamander spam. I like Predators and a bunch dropped during the run, so here we are. Maybe in another run I'd collect a pile of Drams and put points into Command & Control to counteract civilian AI cowardice with direct orders. As long as I hit a critical mass of fighters, LRMs, and ECCM Salamanders to keep the enemy at bay, it all works!

As a niche example that works well but needs specific weapons and officer skills, consider:

(Mid-game) Projectile Artillery

Spoiler
HVDs, Heavy Maulers, Gauss and Mjolnir Cannons are rare but good. Once you find enough for a couple of ships, you can build around them to make them even better.

Ideal officer skills look something like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/tLrX2ht.png)

Gunnery Implants is the absolute top priority. The second level abuses pinpoint accuracy weapons to land shots at max range, often sneaking past shields and evasive maneuvers. The third point combined with an ITU on a large hull overlaps fields of fire with neighboring vessels.

With the right setups, Helmsmanship 3 allows big ships to keep the 0%-flux speed and agility bonus while firing. This is huge on slow low-tech ships. Since good projectile hulls are low-tech, armor skills (especially the free-repairs one, repairing armor is a huge supply drain) are also a good investment.
[close]

Condor-fleet relies on missile spam to keep enemies at bay, and Salamander hits to secure kill. Artillery-fleet relies on the threat of overlapping long-range weapons arcs to keep enemies at bay, and clutch long-range shots from unexpected angles to secure kills. The first is cheap to start, the second needs rare items but can be transitioned into from the first. Each works better if you focus on it alone instead of mixing the two compositions, but both want to see this:

(https://i.imgur.com/bW1rvfy.png)

Other stuff for a good start:

(Early Game) Privateer Flagship
Spoiler
Load your flagship up on torpedoes. Skill burst damage and CR endurance.

Then take a commission and follow conflict hotspots, tipping battles in your favor by taking out key ships. You'll get bounty payments, salvage rights to large hulls, and it's a ton of fun.

The extreme version of this is the Plasma Cannon SO Sunder, which can dance from ship to ship to ship until it's out of CR. By stashing your loot regularly, your risk is fairly low.

(https://i.imgur.com/HvJuq3c.png)
[close]


(Early/Mid Game) Ghost Fleet
Spoiler
This focuses entirely on the strategic map, but has a low skill investment if you're already in the yellow/blue trees.

(https://i.imgur.com/pobkYCS.png)

Closely watch the sensor strength and signature profile details ("Press F1 for more info") in the bottom right of your screen. Stick the 50% reduced sensor profile mod on anything that sticks out, and look for ships with high-resolution sensors. Eschew civilian hulls.

With careful use of Emergency Burn and the various sensor skills, you can dictate engagements completely. Never take a fight you can't win, even in enemy territory!
[close]
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 29, 2018, 01:01:34 PM
No pictures here because I am lazy but i play with a smaller fleet size in general than most people.

One of the things that had been very successful for me was a mix of 2 carriers and 2 Sunders. The 2 Sunders had HIL and Graviton Beams while the 2 carriers (Drovers) had exclusively kinetic fighters(broadswords). Doctrine was simple, overload something with Kinetic Fighters -> 2 Sunder's rip it to shreds with HILs.

It is/was surprisingly effective and would punch up to 200k bounties fairly easily
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Linnis on May 29, 2018, 01:37:44 PM
Vigilance with medium sabots start also is very powerful in small fleet battles without any skills invested.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: HELMUT on May 30, 2018, 01:24:14 PM
That's a cool thread. Here's my take on an old classic composition, the beam spam fleet.

Pro :
-Easy
-Safe
-Very good for early and mid-game

Con:
-Finding enough tactical lasers can be difficult
-Fall off during late game
-Boring?


A very easy strat that allows to keep your ships safe. Low offensive power, but beams works in a way that they reach a "critical mass", becoming exponentially more powerful as you field more and more of those. A such, keeping the number advantage is extremely important. Very efficient during early and mid game, although it tends to fall off later on, especially if you decide to go for a "pure" beam spam. Eventually the player will be outnumbered while facing end-game opponents, unable to focus enough beams on each individual targets.

Here's what i did to fix some of those issues.

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/B8BZJL4.png)
Mid-game average fleet.

Wolves are obvious choices for this one. Cheap, fast and can focus all of their weapons to the front. Their jobs is to slowly grind down their targets while keeping them at a safe distance.

(https://i.imgur.com/VIX5RjZ.png)
A standard beam-Wolf.

Missiles can be changed depending on your needs. Salamanders gives you good crowd control. Swarmers allow for constant HE spam. Harpoons are reliable finishers. Torpedoes when you really need some burst damage (and you'll need it later). Only a few missiles i think, doesn't really work well work this fleet. Sabots, as you "should" have more than enough Graviton beams to melt any shields anyway. Annihilators, as a friendly fire prone weapon doesn't pair well with ships with a front shield emitter.

You don't want to be picky during early-game, pirate wolves and pretty much anything that flies is good, as long as it helps achieving number superiority and some early beam critical mass. No need to religiously stick to beams though, strap in there a few autocannons or so if you need to. Strength in number first.


(https://i.imgur.com/OWAe7xR.png)
Now things are getting interesting.

Same idea as the beam-Wolf, but upsized. And because it is a destroyer, you can now use the converted hangar hullmod to add in there a Xyphos. Why a Xyphos? Well, for 25 OPs, you get two hard to kill fighters, two flux-free Ion beams and two Burst PDs. Two actual Ion Beams would cost 24 OPs and 400 flux/second. Oh and also, because Xyphos are fighters, they can fire over allied ships, which is really big deal when your fleet start to reach a sizeable size. Again, the Ship loadout can be tweaked depending on you needs.


(https://i.imgur.com/ETe4h84.png)
If you include mods, the Beholder is a prime candidat for a beam fleet.

Less mobile than the Medusa, the Beholder offers much better offensive capabilities, thanks to its 4 tactical laser drones, which bring it to a total of 8 TacLasers. You'll reach critical mass in no time with those guys. Just like fighters, drones can also fire over friendly ships.


(https://i.imgur.com/xYiAXZ6.png)
A possible alternative.

Unlike the other ships that provide some proper beam spam, the Sunder is more about raw power. Where the rest of the fleet might struggle to drill through armor, having one or two HIL can be useful. I went with Salamanders here, but just like with Wolves, use what you need.
[close]

So, here's how things should go. Graviton beams melt through shields, Ion beams immobilise the target, TacLasers slowly burn through the hull, add a few missiles to accelerate the process. Because of your superior range, you'll be able to intercept and neutralise threats before they can get in position. Worst case scenario, your ships are still faster than average to safely disengage (only frigates and destroyers). The smaller the enemy is, the easier you can take it down before it can do anything meaningful, this also applies to fighters. Bigger ships however, requires much higher beam concentration, which can be tricky in the heat of battle, especially when that bigger ship is an Onslaught burn-driving into your fleet. The beam fleet low TTK problem will become more apparent against more numerous opponents, and you'll pretty much reach your "level cap" once your fleet hit the 30 ship limit.

To compensate for this, the flagship must be something quite different, something like this :

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/S60nte1.png)
So much for subtlety.

Your job is simple, what you ships lacks in killing power, your flagship will make up for it. Just approach the target that have been caught in the beam storm, and press the left click button. You won't need to think too much about your defense either, remember that the target is high on flux and very likely EMP'd to death. You're merely an executioner, not a knight. This will dramatically reduce your fleet TTK and help in big battles.

I showed a Medusa here, but anything that can deal a lot of burst damage and move fairly quickly around the battlefield is good. Aurora, Phase ships, Safety Override builds...
[close]

As for skills, a mix of Technology (mainly for Electronic Warfare and perhaps Loadout Design) and Leadership (Officer Management and Coordinated Maneuvers) to make sure every battle will go smoothly. Having one point in industry to get the first perk of Recovery Operations is a good one too, to make the search for Tactical lasers slightly less difficult.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: intrinsic_parity on May 30, 2018, 01:44:00 PM
Beam spam fleets massively benefit from a couple eagles/falcons. These provide additional beam stacking with hard flux and he damage.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 30, 2018, 02:30:50 PM
Beam spam fleets massively benefit from a couple eagles/falcons. These provide additional beam stacking with hard flux and he damage.

Also the Heavy Blaster Medusa is the superior executioner medusa.

Also if you're really heavy on the beam idea you should consider a Sunder with an HIL. HIL is the second fastest armor stripping non-torpedo in the game*. If you want to get down to some hull to murder things you've fluxed locked an HIL Sunder will do the trick right fast. And it will do it to 1400 range while also providing kinetic pressure

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/jQnzZwQ.png)
[close]

*measured as "time to kill base onslaughts armor with no skills/abilities". A Plasma Cannon does it in about 4 seconds (give or take due to its staggered shot increments). An HIL does it in 4.8 seconds. A Hellbore Cannon does it in 6 and a Heavy Blaster does it in 10. An antimatter Cannon does it in 20.58 seconds. Asymptotically the Hellbore should be a bit better than the HIL its listed because it spends a lot of time reloading (So at 2200 armor the Hellbore does it in 6 seconds and the HIL in 7.3) and the Hellbore will also make other shots penetrate better faster which speeds up time a lot as well. But the Hellbore is also a slow ass projectile and can miss. All together those three weapons are pretty similar in armor stripping ability. With the Heavy Blaster not far behind... And the HIL will not. And Sunder's have high energy focus for even more hilarity

If you want an executioner you might also consider this

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/57QxfRf.png)
[close]

That is right, its just a Medusa with Safety Overrides and 2 Heavy Blasters. Its shockingly effective
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: MajorTheRed on May 30, 2018, 02:52:06 PM


Also if you're really heavy on the beam idea you should consider a Sunder with an HIL. HIL is the second fastest armor stripping non-torpedo in the game*. If you want to get down to some hull to murder things you've fluxed locked an HIL Sunder will do the trick right fast. And it will do it to 1400 range while also providing kinetic pressure

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/jQnzZwQ.png)
[close]

A classic, never get old. The only drawback is the AI is unable to fly it correctly
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Igncom1 on May 30, 2018, 03:20:54 PM
I always struggle with AI sunders. Far far too vulnerable in my opinion.

My current two have got the big old pulse laser cannons, some SRMs and a bunch of vulcan cannons. Not good on it's own, and I find rarely where I need them, but fantastic burst support for hammerheads... from time to time anyway.

They can't defend themselves from a wet paper bag, espically if one gets into the engines, but with support they can fulfil their supposed duty as heavy energy weapon carriers for a mostly ballistic fleet.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 30, 2018, 04:12:04 PM


Also if you're really heavy on the beam idea you should consider a Sunder with an HIL. HIL is the second fastest armor stripping non-torpedo in the game*. If you want to get down to some hull to murder things you've fluxed locked an HIL Sunder will do the trick right fast. And it will do it to 1400 range while also providing kinetic pressure

Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/jQnzZwQ.png)
[close]

A classic, never get old. The only drawback is the AI is unable to fly it correctly

If you have a cautious officer they do quite well. Also helps to give it an escort command to something that also likes to stick far away
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on May 30, 2018, 09:34:23 PM
I always struggle with AI sunders. Far far too vulnerable in my opinion.

Sunder is objectively vulnerable (being a glass cannon), it's not just AI problem.
- Hammerhead is best for AI. Decent overall and it's win tactic is simple - AAF and overload target on approach.
- Medusa is fast, has best flux and shield, but AI is not too impressive with skimmer. Still decent, if not cost efficient under AI control.
 -Enforcer is at least an armored brick. Even when it fails (which it is likely to, being the weakest DE overall), it won't die too quickly.

Sunder is on slower side, has weak armor and very bad shield efficiency.
Tactic required from it to survive is harder to pull off for AI - it needs to sync it's large gun to HEF (Tachyon/Plasma/Autopulse) to get results similar to Hammerhead. Also needs to control engagement range with better precision than AI is capable of.

I rarely use it - as player ship Medusa rules supreme, as AI Hammerhead seems to be the best option - simple and efficient. Other two just fill the gaps in availability.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 30, 2018, 09:52:53 PM
The Sunder really doesn’t need tachyon, autopulse, or plasma and really doesn’t do best with them. It’s failing is largly that players don’t protect them with orders, and that they do not stack ITU and advanced Optics.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on May 30, 2018, 10:05:06 PM
The Sunder really doesn’t need tachyon, autopulse, or plasma and really doesn’t do best with them. It’s failing is largly that players don’t protect them with orders, and that they do not stack ITU and advanced Optics.

Yeah... ITU and Advanced Optics are problematic in campaign. Especially ITU - not having it seriously limits usefulness of DEs overall. Player piloted UI Medusa is fine without it and UI Hammerhead is at least usable, but Sunder and Enforcer are pretty much unviable without it.

By the point I have both hullmods, I'm likely to be using Capital-centered fleet.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Null Ganymede on May 30, 2018, 10:38:28 PM
Explorer runs (salvage rigs + skills) should get 'em from science stations and whatnot, along with a bunch of rare weaponry.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on May 30, 2018, 11:21:27 PM
Explorer runs (salvage rigs + skills) should get 'em from science stations and whatnot, along with a bunch of rare weaponry.

This reduces endgame power by taking eventually obsolete skills. Big Nope in my book.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Megas on May 31, 2018, 05:44:59 AM
The biggest problem with Sunder is energy weapons are not Open Market common.  If I want a disposable Sunder, it probably gets three medium pulse lasers (from black market or pirate loot), missile racks (from loot), and LMGs or light autocannons in the turrets (Open Market junk).  I doubt it is as effective as Enforcer or Hammerhead, but... it is built to fight and die like a disposable hero.  It is expected to lose.

As for Salvaging, I would not want to spend six to nine points on crutch skills.  It is a shame that the exploration game is mutually exclusive with optimal endgame combat power.  If I want the goodies badly, I will farm cores and juggle commissions and get everything in the long run.  The only hullmod that might not be bought from anywhere (in unmodded game, due to no variant using it) is Converted Hangar, which is in the universal near-must-have skill Fighter Doctrine.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Null Ganymede on May 31, 2018, 12:02:49 PM
Carriers and hangar bays aren't must-haves. They're good, but you can do fine without them.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Thaago on May 31, 2018, 02:40:50 PM
I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better). It wants steady/cautious officers (or no officers), vulcans in the ballistics, and no missiles to foul up its range calculations. If you have plentiful light needlers or railguns those do help, but they are both rare and they will make the AI close to 700/800 range instead of 1000. The OP savings from not having found ITU/optics can be put into hardened shields, auxiliary thrusters, or a hanger bay.

The AI is not competent with the plasma cannon or the autopulse on the Sunder (Especially not the autopulse! It will fire off the majority of the shots at max range, miss all of them due to target motion, and then be stuck with self-raised flux and poor dps). Tachyon lances are fun, but each costs more than the ship and is incredibly rare.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Igncom1 on May 31, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
I've been running my current Hammerheads with two rail guns in the forward facing medium mounts and four light assault guns on the turrets.

She can't shoot down missiles this way, but the amount of dakka it brings at close range with the ammo feeder is impressive. Not too shabby at killing fighters with it either.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Thaago on May 31, 2018, 02:56:38 PM
I've been running my current Hammerheads with two rail guns in the forward facing medium mounts and four light assault guns on the turrets.

She can't shoot down missiles this way, but the amount of dakka it brings at close range with the ammo feeder is impressive. Not too shabby at killing fighters with it either.

Why not use mediums on the mediums? Can't find any Heavy Autocannons or Heavy Needlers?
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Igncom1 on May 31, 2018, 03:04:22 PM
I find that the rail guns are great for the flux and op cost, highly reccormend. The cost saved in flux makes them a lot more defensible and if I'm mostly fighting frigates with them, the heavier guns are unneeded.

Two Heavy Needlers wouldn't really need any assistance against frigates and I've been finding that Heavy Autocannons are flux cost inefficient for their DPS which isn't much higher then railguns anyway. Might as well save on the OP for other stuff.

Under gunning is very fun, i'd reccormend it espically on Eagle cruisers and Falcon cruisers who can then fund the saved points elsewhere.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on May 31, 2018, 03:25:52 PM
I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better). It wants steady/cautious officers (or no officers), vulcans in the ballistics, and no missiles to foul up its range calculations. If you have plentiful light needlers or railguns those do help, but they are both rare and they will make the AI close to 700/800 range instead of 1000. The OP savings from not having found ITU/optics can be put into hardened shields, auxiliary thrusters, or a hanger bay.

The AI is not competent with the plasma cannon or the autopulse on the Sunder (Especially not the autopulse! It will fire off the majority of the shots at max range, miss all of them due to target motion, and then be stuck with self-raised flux and poor dps). Tachyon lances are fun, but each costs more than the ship and is incredibly rare.

You can use salamanders and swarmers in the missiles  if you have spare OP. This is because the salamander is a support missile and has very long range; it will not significantly affect the AI. The swarmer is an anti-fighter missile and like point defense systems is not considered by the AI for optimal range calculations
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Megas on May 31, 2018, 04:49:06 PM
The nice thing about Fighter Doctrine is primarily the fleet boost (although Converted Hangar at 2 is great).  Even if your flagship is not a carrier, if the player has multiple carriers in the fleet, the boosts their fighters get are nice, or at least keep up with enemy fleets with Fighter Doctrine.

Quote
Under gunning is very fun, i'd reccormend it espically on Eagle cruisers and Falcon cruisers who can then fund the saved points elsewhere.
If weapons were more common, I would do it more.  Generally, my under-gunning, if I do not leave mounts empty, is generally replacing Graviton Beam with Tactical Laser, any heavy energy with Heavy Blaster, or medium missiles for 1 or 2 OP one-shots.  Railguns in mediums would be nice, except they are in hot demand by ships who cannot mount medium ballistics but can use light ballistics.  Thus, Hammerheads, Eagles, and the like get Arbalests instead of Railguns because other ships that want Railguns but cannot use Arbalest (like Medusa) get the Railguns.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on May 31, 2018, 09:34:56 PM
After a bit of testing with Converted Hangars I kind of see why Megas considers them indispensable. D-ships lose a lot of stats, but they have full OP, and most (or all?) D-mods do not affect fighters. D-ships also cost less to deploy. => CH naturally stacks with clunker fleet approach.

It's also quite a powerful hullmod, considering that AI is not very good against fighters. Normally I consider Enforcer to be the weakest DE, but when you add CH it finally becomes decent match for the others. Why? => With most OP of all DEs, it is cheapest for Enforcer. And having 2 Flaks easily counters enemy CH even if they also had it.

I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better).

I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. Nearly same variant with ITU is almost guaranteed to slaughter them without a chance to fight back (same slow-ish speed, yet more range). With UI you could at least get a stalemate due to speed advantage (and charge in when enemy becomes vulnerable).
UI vs UI+ITU is also a better situation than none vs ITU - there is smaller approach window to be exploited which AI would often fail to exploit (it's not nearly as precise at range management as player).
Exception: Hyperion, since it's system allows to mostly ignore range and normal movement.

ITU, no-UI is also a kind of bet. If you can't get enough flux advantage during approach of faster and stronger enemy, you are done. Most notable case - being charged by Aurora (hard flux equipped).
- A Hammerhead needs to use all it's firepower under AAF in optimal manner or it's dead. Overall, it has easiest victory against Aurora amongst all DEs.
- Medusa can win if player controlled. But it's all about skimmer and finer piloting, and is not easy.
- Enforcer is dead unless it uses ridiculous variant like 4x Heavy Needlers, 1x Mauler to imitate Hammerhead. But such build is relatively useless outside this specific situation.
- Sunder is just dead - it's not effective enough against shield to repel Aurora and not fast enough to run.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2018, 05:22:07 AM
I generally do not use Converted Hangar on destroyers because the -75% penalty - and no Expanded Deck Crew - is too much of a penalty, not to mention that the destroyers do not have much OP.  Fighters will be at 30% replacement before long, and your fighters are effectively out of ammo for the rest of the fight because they replenish too slowly (and what few replacements you get before peak performance times out will be easily munched by the enemy).

Cruisers can use them, if the fighters replenish fast enough (like Talons or Claws), but they are mostly useful either as scouts or get things off your back like Salamanders do (except more effectively).  Loadout Design 3 is practically required to get enough OP to fit Converted Hangar and fighters on cruisers, and still have enough OP left to get everything else your ship needs.

Capitals can use Converted Hangar and fighters as a superior substitute to Salamanders or Pilums.  Lack of Expanded Deck Crew and no quick bomber refit are bigger penalties than -25% to replacement.

However, if player is desperate or into challenge fleets, Converted Hangar is great on the likes of Buffalo and Tarsus freighters if you want to force a fleet of them to fight.  Yes, they are not as effective as proper carriers or warships, but with a CP build (like HELMUT's vs. the Dickersons or Approlight bosses), those freighters can abuse Fighter Strike and pick off fleets no bigger than it, especially if your flagship is a cruiser (or maybe capital) warship that tanks for all of your civilians-turned-carriers.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on June 01, 2018, 07:01:55 AM
I generally do not use Converted Hangar on destroyers because the -75% penalty - and no Expanded Deck Crew - is too much of a penalty, not to mention that the destroyers do not have much OP.

Even at 75% penalty and without Fighter Doctrine, Talons from DE converted hangar spawn at decent enough rate to be worth 10 OP. Especially if used on d-ships, that do not have much in terms of base stats.
As far as sim duels go, CH+Talons is single best way to spent 10 OP on Enforcer at least.

Of course other fighters wouldn't work very well, but who cares? Frankly, beside dedicated carriers with fighter-related systems or ships like Odyssey with special requirements (Longbow for kinetics), I don't see much sense in using other fighters over Talons.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on June 01, 2018, 10:41:36 AM
After a bit of testing with Converted Hangars I kind of see why Megas considers them indispensable. D-ships lose a lot of stats, but they have full OP, and most (or all?) D-mods do not affect fighters. D-ships also cost less to deploy. => CH naturally stacks with clunker fleet approach.

It's also quite a powerful hullmod, considering that AI is not very good against fighters. Normally I consider Enforcer to be the weakest DE, but when you add CH it finally becomes decent match for the others. Why? => With most OP of all DEs, it is cheapest for Enforcer. And having 2 Flaks easily counters enemy CH even if they also had it.

I find Sunders are quite effective in AI hands - as long as you are using a HIL/graviton loadout. Even without ITU/Optics it is effective enough (though of course they make it better).

I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. Nearly same variant with ITU is almost guaranteed to slaughter them without a chance to fight back (same slow-ish speed, yet more range). With UI you could at least get a stalemate due to speed advantage (and charge in when enemy becomes vulnerable).
UI vs UI+ITU is also a better situation than none vs ITU - there is smaller approach window to be exploited which AI would often fail to exploit (it's not nearly as precise at range management as player).
Exception: Hyperion, since it's system allows to mostly ignore range and normal movement.

ITU, no-UI is also a kind of bet. If you can't get enough flux advantage during approach of faster and stronger enemy, you are done. Most notable case - being charged by Aurora (hard flux equipped).
- A Hammerhead needs to use all it's firepower under AAF in optimal manner or it's dead. Overall, it has easiest victory against Aurora amongst all DEs.
- Medusa can win if player controlled. But it's all about skimmer and finer piloting, and is not easy.
- Enforcer is dead unless it uses ridiculous variant like 4x Heavy Needlers, 1x Mauler to imitate Hammerhead. But such build is relatively useless outside this specific situation.
- Sunder is just dead - it's not effective enough against shield to repel Aurora and not fast enough to run.


Enhanced Optics is the one you’re looking for. UI is just going to get your dude closer to the enemy
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: SafariJohn on June 01, 2018, 10:42:26 AM
Making Talons 0 OP and giving them Swarmers on top of that immensely devalued all other fighters.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on June 01, 2018, 10:50:04 AM
Enhanced Optics is the one you’re looking for. UI is just going to get your dude closer to the enemy

No, I meant Unstable Injector. Speed and range combination (vs enemy speed and range) is often deciding factor in combat, rather than just either of them separately. Which is why it makes sense to evaluate ITU vs UI.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on June 01, 2018, 10:53:23 AM
Enhanced Optics is the one you’re looking for. UI is just going to get your dude closer to the enemy

No I meant  Unstable Injector. Speed and range combination (vs enemy speed and range) is often deciding factor in combat, rather than just either of them separately. Which is why it makes sense to evaluate ITU vs UI.

I know you meant Unstable Injector. I was saying that it was not a good option. Speed AND range is what matters and you're giving up the more important of the two, putting yourself within Sabot and Hypervelocity range. The Speed is minimal at that point.

Your missile spam setup is really inefficient you can almost certainly do it easier/better. Most small missiles when moving up to their "pod" version get about 4 times better. A Harpoon MRM launcher has 3 shots 1 at a time, a Pod has 12 shots, 4 at at time. 4 times the ammo, 4 times the volley.

The Salamander does not. The pod version launches 2 missiles at the same interval as the regular version. So a medium slot here doesn't give you any particular advantage. Rather you should be looking for getting the most of Small + medium x 2 for the lowest supply cost.

Brawlers are OK (2 for 4), Drams are similar (1 for 2), Hecates are good (2 for 3), Lashers are ok(2 for 4), Kites are Great(2 for 2). You could fit. You could fit 2.5 more salamanders per supply cost in your deployment by loading up on Kites! Vigilance is pretty good with the 2 for 5 plus a bonus.

Mercury Class Shuttles however, are king... with 3 universal slots for 2 supply/deployment. Granted they can't quite fit ECCM and ECM... but its still the top of the line. With Mercury Class Shuttles you could fit 15 Salamanders in the same space you're using for 4.

If you're willing to go up a class the Buffalo MK II is actually pretty efficient. At 5 Salamanders for 4 supply. It also has space for ECM and you can fit a tactical laser for rangefinding (and maybe some PD and other things so you don't get wrecked by Harpoons


Wanted to go back to this because i went and tested "Fast Missile Racks" with Salamanders and well, they're amazing. They quadruple the fire rate. The Vigiliance are the best for this indeed.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on June 01, 2018, 11:54:38 AM
I know you meant Unstable Injector. I was saying that it was not a good option. Speed AND range is what matters and you're giving up the more important of the two, putting yourself within Sabot and Hypervelocity range. The Speed is minimal at that point.

In general:
Sabot are trivial to counter by bait + vent as long as you have speed advantage (like from UI).
HVD always loses to similar variant with Heavy Needlers, as long as Needler variant can close range gap within reasonable time (again, UI). Or Just armor tank on Zero Flux Boost, if you really have no other options, HVD is not that damaging. Plus AI is not good at exploiting narrow range advantage and often allows same speed enemy to approach. Which is why I don't consider HVD good option.

For beam Sunder specifically:
Without ITU and AO combination you don't outrange HVD reliably anyway. When ITU is unavailable (most of the campaign without salvage skills) using UI transforms definite loss (same speed, less range) scenario into at least a stalemate (more speed, much less range), that you can choose to resolve when enemy is distracted (as faster side).
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on June 01, 2018, 12:51:25 PM
The AI isn't going to bait Sabots and giving it more speed and less range will just shove it into the enemies guns faster
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: PixiCode on June 01, 2018, 01:43:27 PM
Making Talons 0 OP and giving them Swarmers on top of that immensely devalued all other fighters.

The primary issue with talons is you'll end up burning through your carrier readiness, slowing the reproduction of talons. Some fleets will just eat talons the second you use them. They are still extremely effective for their cost, as you say, however. Just don't write off all other fighters. Specifically, they can't fulfill heavy fighter or bomber roles, specifically broadswords which have a unique function.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 01, 2018, 02:29:26 PM
Speed is, in general, more advantageous than range. If you have more speed and less range, you can always leave the enemies weapon range, but if you have more range and less speed, you are betting that the extra damage you do while they close the range gap is enough to win the fight. In a 1v1 for ships of similar size, that range advantage is usually enough, but in a fleet context, you will often have to fight while at a flux disadvantage, in which case the extra flux you build up while they close the range gap may not be enough to win the flux war. Speed gives you control of the engagement and a way out, range just gives you a flux advantage.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Megas on June 01, 2018, 03:33:06 PM
With Talons, you want them to die as soon as they launch their two swarmers so that its replacement can arrive and unload two more swarmers instead of a surviving Talon waiting then launching only one missile eventually.  With boosted replacement rate (and Expanded Deck Crew slowing rate drain), Talons just keep coming.  Talons with only one swarmer at a time is nothing special.  Talons with two swarmers at a time are destructive, and they can only do that if they die and replenish quickly.

As for speed vs. range, I will save the OP and shot range by not wasting it on UI.  If I put UI on Hammerhead, I will need Mauler and HVD to do what a normal one can do with merely Heavy Mortar and Arbalest with less OP spent.  UI is not worth it for most ships.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 01, 2018, 03:49:41 PM
I agree that UI is not worth it on most ships, because you lose range and gain speed. It's too much of a penalty. I would more say, abstractly I would rather gain some speed than gain some range, but all the methods of gaining top speed in this game balanced with drawbacks while there are hull mods that give a range boost with no penalty. I think that's more evidence that speed is a bit stronger, but I think the drawbacks keep things fairly balanced, maybe a bit balanced against the top speed boosting hull mods.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Goumindong on June 01, 2018, 05:13:17 PM
Speed is, in general, more advantageous than range. If you have more speed and less range, you can always leave the enemies weapon range, but if you have more range and less speed, you are betting that the extra damage you do while they close the range gap is enough to win the fight. In a 1v1 for ships of similar size, that range advantage is usually enough, but in a fleet context, you will often have to fight while at a flux disadvantage, in which case the extra flux you build up while they close the range gap may not be enough to win the flux war. Speed gives you control of the engagement and a way out, range just gives you a flux advantage.

No. On HIL sunders range is everything. You cannot win the “flux war” at lower range all you do is risk overloading and dying.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: intrinsic_parity on June 01, 2018, 07:18:44 PM
I was talking abstractly, certainly there particular situations where range is preferable
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Thaago on June 01, 2018, 09:02:15 PM
Quote
I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. ...

Very much disagree. ITU is an automatic hullmod for all non-SO ships because it is deliberately overpowered and balanced by rarity. UI however is a judgement call and it depends on the rest of the fleet composition and expected enemies. Between the range and OP costs, UI sacrifices a lot of combat power for speed. Sometimes that trade is worth it, sometimes not.

Frigates almost always should have UI because, with a few exceptions, their only defense against fighters is speed.

Against early game fleets with frigate spam? UI on everything because the player's ships need to be able to avoid flanking by enemies.

Player has lots of fighter cover? No UI on destroyers - flanking/interception/harassment work are covered by other elements and they are free to become more dedicated gunships.

Fighting capitals/stations? Cruisers and Destroyers should not have UI because they are already faster, but the speed increase does not overcome the lost range in terms of approaching a target to firing range without being overloaded.

In the case of beam sunders, UI is almost always worse than UI because the base range is so long - the speed increase is not close to making up for the damage lost on approach. Same with HVD/Mauler Hammerheads to be honest. Railgun/Heavy mortar hammerheads do great with UI however.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: TaLaR on June 01, 2018, 10:16:43 PM
Quote
I consider no-UI, no-ITU variants to be automatically unusable. ...

Very much disagree. ITU is an automatic hullmod for all non-SO ships because it is deliberately overpowered and balanced by rarity. UI however is a judgement call and it depends on the rest of the fleet composition and expected enemies. Between the range and OP costs, UI sacrifices a lot of combat power for speed. Sometimes that trade is worth it, sometimes not.

Frigates almost always should have UI because, with a few exceptions, their only defense against fighters is speed.

Against early game fleets with frigate spam? UI on everything because the player's ships need to be able to avoid flanking by enemies.

Player has lots of fighter cover? No UI on destroyers - flanking/interception/harassment work are covered by other elements and they are free to become more dedicated gunships.

Fighting capitals/stations? Cruisers and Destroyers should not have UI because they are already faster, but the speed increase does not overcome the lost range in terms of approaching a target to firing range without being overloaded.

In the case of beam sunders, UI is almost always worse than UI because the base range is so long - the speed increase is not close to making up for the damage lost on approach. Same with HVD/Mauler Hammerheads to be honest. Railgun/Heavy mortar hammerheads do great with UI however.

On otherwise similar variants ITU vs no-UI, no-ITU is absolute advantage for ITU side. AI may be not quite there, but assuming AI was as good as player at flux management, did not make range management mistakes and no piloting tricks by player this would be an unwinnable scenario (you can approach by armor tanking on zero flux boost, but doing so stacks some disadvantage, so this alone is unlikely to bring victory).
Or at least this is the logic for player-piloted engagements. In AI vs AI duel both cases are definite loss for non-ITU AI.
Might as well simplify my rule to: don't use AI-piloted DEs if ITU is unavailable.

I don't agree with Capitals part too. Extreme example - vs a Paragon UI would reduce approach time (their range - your range/ speed difference) much more than a bit of range.

Beam Sunder without both ITU and AO is a too flawed variant to be practical, so I guess whether it has UI or not is a moot point.

... In fact, after extensive testing I see no reason to use AI Sunders ever. All strong variants rely on fine range control, flux management and HEF syncing - things that AI can not do well enough. Any Sunder gets stomped by same optimal Hammerhead variant in AI vs AI, because it's win tactic is as simple as "activate AAF and enjoy the fireworks".
Pity, considering that TL + ITU + Optics Sunder beats any Hammerhead completely one-sidedly when piloted properly.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Thaago on June 02, 2018, 12:09:54 AM
You misread my post (ITU is mandatory on all non-SO ships - it is a stupidly strong hullmod balanced by rarity). Ships with elite hullmods are better than ships without them is an obviously true statement.

HIL/Graviton Sunders without ITU or AO are less powerful than with, but still just fine ships more than capable of holding their own in fleet combat. If not the case for you, I suggest you adjust your tactics.
Title: Re: Fleet compositions
Post by: Null Ganymede on June 02, 2018, 12:30:31 AM
Fleet performance is all that counts. (It's also much harder to test properly in the simulator, which I think is where some of the single-ship focus in optimization is coming from.)

Consider Talons/Converted Hangars from a fleet perspective.

If you have carrier-spec'd officers to spare, carriers with expensive fighters are amazing. Talons are great value, but they mostly raise flux by getting shot at and occasionally land rockets on armor. Their low replenishment timer is good for offsetting the Converted Hangar penalty, but a manned carrier's fighters are survivable enough not to need it.

If all your officers are gunnery-spec'd, sure, spam destroyers with hangars full of Talons as support. They'll provide some extended PD and flux advantage. And harass any frigates that escape long range guns. They're not going to wreck ships on their own.

As for the Sunder, if it has heavier ships to fall back to (and doesn't get volleyed/Salamandered/fighter swarmed) Unstable Injector isn't critical. ITU is very helpful to increase overlapping weapon arcs, though. The AI is occasionally skittish about firing past friendlies.