| (https://i.imgur.com/ftiOkWG.png) | Astral Two Herons beat out an Astral for raw damage, two Moras beat it out for staying power, and both alternatives are still cheaper. The Astral fires back with the welcome addition of two large missiles, but sacrifices the flexibility of having two independent targeting orders. So, under normal circumstances, with a balanced fighter complement, the Astral is just competent, but not mindblowing. However, if you happen to equip most of its bays with bombers and abuse its recall system, the Astral transforms into the best ship-deletion vehicle in the game. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/obSLxK8.png) | Atlas If you want to move cargo, the Atlas is simply the best option in the game. It only takes up one fleet slot, it carries more cargo than anything else in the game, and is efficient in terms of supplies per month. The only reason you might pick something else is to avoid the penalties to sensors and avoid slowing down your fleet, but both of those concerns are usually moot by the time you're purchasing one of these. However, if you don't need more cargo, the Atlas is useless. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/sSjFTHS.png) | Conquest The Conquest has tremendous firepower, but can't direct the majority of it onto a specific target. The Conquest has great speed, but can easily over-commit and get blasted to bits for its trouble. In the AI's hands, this ship is liable to engage in some suicidal blunder and/or waste its potential, limiting its overall usefulness. With the right loadout in the hands of a skilled player, however, the Conquest comes alive as one of the better ships in the game. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/Vh9af4o.png) | Legion The Legion is the gold standard by which capital ships should be designed. It's got decks; it's got guns; it can bulk up either decks or guns at the cost of the other. It's tough, but it goes down if you have the right tools or enough ships. It's slow, but it can get to the fighting relatively quickly thanks to its burn drive. The Legion is just all-around solid and works well in any configuration. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/l7U2RVR.png) | Odyssey The main thing the Odyssey has going for it is speed, and yet the Conquest, Onslaught, and Legion all match or even beat it for (burst) speed due to their powerful mobility systems. As a result, we're left with a fragile capital ship with good - but not great - firepower, good - but not great - speed, and an awkward layout that takes more skill to use than most other ships. The Odyssey ends up being a somewhat overpriced jack-of-all-trades, but it is notably the only capital ship capable of reliably engaging in hit-and-run skirmishes. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/F7ouNHl.png) | Onslaught In terms of pure full-out assaults, the Onslaught is the king of damage, unmatched by anything in the game. An Onslaught burning towards you with all guns and missiles firing is terrifying dangerous for any victim. Straightforward "point toward the enemy and make them die" behavior makes the Onslaught good in both player and AI hands. Poor flux capability is outweighed by the best armor and hull stats for any ship in the game. It's extremely strong, it's extremely tough, and it's even on the cheap side for a capital ship; the Onslaught does it all. Well, except for a major weakness: the Onslaught is extremely vulnerable to being flanked. As made famous by the "Sinking the not!Bismarck" mission, even a single persistent frigate can spell the Onslaught's doom. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/ZiZmV3W.png) | Paragon It should be no surprise to anyone that the Paragon is ranked very highly. In most circumstances, the Paragon is an indisputable "A tier" ship, capable of covering all its bases, immune to flanking, extremely tough, and very powerful. While specific ships might be able to beat the Paragon in a specific category, the Paragon as a whole is great at everything and has no noteworthy weaknesses to compensate, making it the best capital ship in the game by default. If that wasn't enough, the Paragon has an actual niche that it excels at: range. Anything slower and shorter-ranged, such as a pinned-down capital ship or some battlestations, is basically screwed if it has to fight a Paragon, making it conditionally even better than "A tier". |
| (https://i.imgur.com/0NplSlC.png) | Prometheus If you want to increase your fleet's range, the Prometheus is simply the best option in the game. It only takes up one fleet slot, it carries more fuel than anything else in the game, and is efficient in terms of supplies per month. Oddly, unlike other mainline civilian ships, it has actual defenses that might be able to fend off a couple frigates during a retreat, though this isn't enough to raise the rank. The only reason you might pick something else is to avoid the penalties to sensors and avoid slowing down your fleet, but oftentimes the Prometheus is the only viable option for getting across the Sector. However, if you don't need more fuel, the Prometheus is completely useless. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/8y74PLu.png) | Apogee The Apogee has had, throughout the entire release cycle of Starsector, the most bizarre weapon layout of any ship in the game. This is primarily due to the fact that the Apogee was designed during a period of the game where refitting wasn't possible. Later, when refits were made available and the slots were changed around, the Apogee remained one of the few ships to come out with no changes at all. However, just about everything else about the ship has changed dramatically with each release, which should be a good indication of its role in the game. Basically, the Apogee is the ultimate jack-of-all-trades. It can do just about everything: tank, hit hard, help you explore, help you see further, escort smaller ships, hang back with long-ranged weapons; you name it. The main drawback is that the Apogee isn't particularly good at doing any of these individual things, leaving it in an awkward middle spot; just about every other cruiser beats the Apogee in some major capacity, meaning it's very rarely the best choice for a given job. Still, the Apogee has the rare distinction of being one of two flyable ships in the game (alongside the Conquest) to have both a large missile and a large non-missile slot, giving it unique loadout min-maxing flexibility. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/7MkCOfa.png) | Aurora Some ships skirt the edge of being outright broken. The Aurora is one of those ships. It's faster than all the other cruisers, both in terms of burst speed and consistent speed. It has a punishingly powerful array of forward guns and missiles. It has a very strong shield, top-tier flux stats, and OP for days. The only drawback is relatively poor range, but when you're riding around in a cruiser that can outpace most destroyers, the sub-par range doesn't matter as much. Under normal circumstances, Aurora is among the best ships in the game, but certain builds can shore up the Aurora's few weaknesses and capitalize on its many strengths, throwing it straight into crazy town. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/KiJVBTP.png) | Brilliant Despite not being a player-usable ship, the Brilliant manages to put the fear of death into late-game fleets. While a single Brilliant isn't really anything special, they're surprisingly easy to mass and can cover for one another. A decent layout, a very flexible loadout, and all-around competent stats leaves us with a solid ship with no notable weaknesses. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/z4HmZv3.png) | Colossus Colossus is the rare civilian ship that can measure up to the capital-class civilian ships (Atlas). Most players will find the Colossus to be the best bulk cargo option if they don't want to slow down their fleet as much. As with other dedicated freighters, it's useless if you don't need more cargo space. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/f4CZkZj.png) | Colossus Mk.II The only redeeming quality of this modification is the built-in hammer barrage and burn drive, making the Colossus Mk.II a decent kamikaze unit. Aside from that, though, it's terrible. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/cNyieoi.png) | Colossus Mk.III The Colossus Mk.III is hot garbage. Unlike the Mk. II, this verison doesn't have an useful niche. If it had more OP, perhaps it could manage some modest capability, but alas. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/gYNja7l.png) | Dominator Unlike many "B rank" ships, the Dominator is not a generalist main-line ship. It has one category of jobs that it does better than any other cruiser: facing the enemy and blasting them with all of its guns. When placed in the right situation (such as having an anvil to hammer against), the Dominator is incredibly potent, capable of deploying capital-grade firepower whilst enjoying capital-grade durability. When flanked by faster ships or left unprotected, however, the Dominator is hopelessly outmatched. Moreso than perhaps any other ship, the Dominator is made or broken by how well it is utilized. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/Ti0qDEM.png) | Doom Yes, the Doom is a phase ship and is at least somewhat useful by default. However, due to its cruiser designation, it's not quite fast enough to make good use of phasing; it's often more of a burden. The Doom also has the worst of the ship systems installed on phase ships currently, and a generally anemic weapons package capable of making a small number of really powerful strikes via opportunistic use of torpedoes. In the grand scheme of things, the Doom is far from a bad cruiser, but it really isn't worth the capital-class costs associated with operating it. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/KTHzKe0.png) | Eagle The Mario of Starsector, the Eagle is perhaps the most well-rounded ship in the game. A good mobility system to get out of trouble, good shields and armor, an exploitable weakness that the pilot can cover for, and plenty of guns in various configurations to deal with whatever threat may face it; this ship has it all. Most notably, the Eagle can be configured for just about any purpose, which it will carry out reliably, even in AI hands. There is a reason the Eagle has become basically the de-facto default pick for a cruiser; it's a jack-of-all-trades, but it's actually good at all of its roles. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2D22cZ3.png) | Falcon The Falcon is basically a scaled-down Eagle, almost crossing into destroyer territory. What it has going for it is increased speed without sacrificing the range afforded by the cruiser class; otherwise, what is said about the Eagle generally applies to the Falcon, too... with a caveat. The Falcon, unlike the Eagle, cannot afford to get in close and have a brawl, owing to its weaker shields, weaker armor, and lower hull. As a result, the Falcon is especially dependent on long-range weapons and/or hullmods to work well. If you don't have those available, the Falcon's usefulness sharply drops off. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/p8qKihN.png) | Gryphon Standard Gryphon builds are nothing special; they're serviceable, but have limited use, since the ship will fold quickly when thrown up against stiff resistance (such as a capital ship). Most of the time, in AI hands, the Gryphon is best used as an anti-fighter screen, a LRM spammer, or a close support harpoon/sabot machine to punish enemy ships that make mistakes in a fleet engagement. For most of these roles, you're probably better off picking some other ship in the late game. In the player's hands, everything changes. The right build and tactics turn the Gryphon into an overpowered auto-winning behemoth capable of deleting multiple capital ships by itself. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/T8sIuEa.png) | Heron For cruiser-sized carriers, we have a nicely balanced pair of choices: toughness or strike power. The Heron is the "strike power" side of that choice, featuring a ship system that supercharges fighter damage, making it a solid choice for assault fighters and bombers. To compensate, the Heron is a fast bastard that likes to stay away from the action, forcing bombers to make longer attack runs. In fact, with the right captain, the Heron is infuriatingly speedy, capable of slipping away from most other ships. The Heron lacks notable weaknesses, but doesn't reach the heights of power that the top-end carriers can pull off, putting it right around the middle alongside the Mora. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/ZgCG6YC.png) | Mora The Mora is the "toughness" side of the aforementioned choice, featuring a ship system that makes the ship practically immortal for a short time. The Mora's lack of a direct fighter-boosting system is offset by its crazy staying power and actually decent weapons package; replacement fighters and bombers rarely have to travel very far to reach the target. With the right captain, the Mora is so tough that it basically can't die, making it the safer alternative to the Heron. The Mora naturally synergizes with its fighters, making it just as viable a choice as its more tuned competitor. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/TPkswI7.png) | Rampart The Rampart is shockingly good for a Derelict ship. It succeeds where all the others fail: having enough guns to offset the lack of shields. The Rampart is especially helped by the fact that it's extremely similar to the Dominator, right down to the same hull, armor, flux stats, ship system, and nearly the same speed, turning, and acceleration. It still gets a D, though, because it has built-in D mods. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/EdIDE3d.png) | Starliner The Starliner is completely useless for any practical purpose, having recently lost the mere modicum of combat capability it once had, and crew quantity not being a problem by the time you can purchase it. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/GWfP6t5.png) | Venture The Venture is a glorified starter ship that works best in a support role. Given the rather crappy built-in mining drones and lack of brawling stats, it's best not to rely on this ship later in the game, except for a particular niche, where it works well as a makeshift Gryphon: missile spam. |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Bastillon x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Berserker x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Buffalo x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Buffalo (A) x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Buffalo (P) x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Buffalo Mk.II x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Condor x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Drover x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Enforcer x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Fulgent x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Gemini x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Hammerhead x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Harbinger x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Medusa x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Mule x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Mule (P) x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Nebula x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Phaeton x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Salvage Rig x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Scintilla x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Sunder x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Tarsus x |
| (https://i.imgur.com/2wzrCqD.png) | Valkyrie x |
I would put the Odyssey at C+. Still situational, but unrivalled in some situations.
Adjusted the rank to be C+. I didn't consider the Conquest's jets cooldown to be a major factor, but given your direct experience, I'll go with your interpretation.
The conquest's only two redeeming quality is its maneuverability and great PD/area. But it's overall speed is dwarfed by onslaught's burn drive.And 1200 flux dissipation coupled with ballistic weapons, which means it has great staying power if you don't have to tank everything.
Adjusted the rank to be C+. I didn't consider the Conquest's jets cooldown to be a major factor, but given your direct experience, I'll go with your interpretation.
In the AI's hands, this ship is liable to engage in some suicidal blunder and/or waste its potential, limiting its overall usefulness.How so? If anything, the only flaw AI does with baseline Conquest is occasionally take hits that outright overload shields that would not overload any other ship due to horrid shield inefficiency. Otherwise, AI is fairly safe at piloting it, and it generally does a good job piloting and fighting with what it has.
I pretty much agree so far. My vote for a trash tier ship is the Brawler (TT).
And thinking on it, the Afflictor and Harbinger are like C+++. Ok (but expensive) in AI hands, but truly brutal assassins in the player's.
I pretty much agree so far. My vote for a trash tier ship is the Brawler (TT).The Brawler (TT) got plasma jets in 0.8.1a, so it's okay-ish now. Not as agile as the Wolf, but it's bulkier and can run some abusive loadouts with the 2 medium energies in player hands.
C++ is a better rank than B. B is just always solid, while C++ needs work to be put into it, but can rival A if used correctly.This does not seem very intuitive. In that case, Onslaught seems more like B+ than A-.
Is Harbinger that good currently? Seems too slow to do omni-shield bypass maneuver, but I didn't pilot it much (since it's unavailable in missions for easy sim tests).It is too slow without Safety Override. But Safety Override just kills peak performance too much. It is simply too expensive for what it can do.
And thinking on it, the Afflictor and Harbinger are like C+++. Ok (but expensive) in AI hands, but truly brutal assassins in the player's.
Is Harbinger that good currently? Seems too slow to do omni-shield bypass maneuver, but I didn't pilot it much (since it's unavailable in missions for easy sim tests).
Harbinger with QD in next update may be that good by virtue of QD + Reaper spam, while Afflictor will get knocked down a peg.
I've always liked the Dominator but I remember a time when the consensus was that it was pretty trash. When did it start to become viewed as a sold ship by most folks?
Light: unsure.And those light slots are where the Dominator pulls ahead of the Eagle; fill those front three turrets with light needlers, use dual flak in the mediums, and fit a Mk IX and a hellbore. Missiles to taste; I tend to prefer 2x salamander and 1x torpedo launcher. (Side turrets get 2x LAG, then 2x railgun, then 2x vulcan in the rear two slots; armament that's tuned more to shutting down flanking fighters and frigates than it is for missile defense.)
I've always liked the Dominator but I remember a time when the consensus was that it was pretty trash. When did it start to become viewed as a sold ship by most folks?For me, this happened when it got burn drive; that change on its own turned it from a flying brick that was basically just a sitting duck for anything with mobility, to a flying brick that can charge up and smash some faces in - or just flat-out run away when something -does- get behind it.
How often do you guys under gun your ships?Occasionally, but not often. Times when I do it.
What vanilla ship could possibly be classed as "S"?Probably the Tempest. The only thing holding the Tempest back from being incredibly obviously overpowered is that you can't get enough of them to build a fleet around. I'm not sure there's anything in the game that can take on its own DP weight in Tempests. Maybe a Paragon?
If the Paragon wasn't then the only other ships I can think of would be the Afflictor and Hyperion. Maybe the Dover with its super powerful ship system.
I tried unskilled Aurora against a group of five destroyers. While Aurora is fast enough to avoid getting caught, it did not utterly dominate the fight. The AI kind of turtles up and deathballs. Occasionally I pick off an isolated target, but much of the time, they covered each other. Eventually, I needed to resort to Hardened Subsystems to outlast them all.Did you try using 2x Medium Sabot Pods, 4x Small Annihilator Pods, and 2x Heavy Blasters? You pick off the most isolated destroyer with a single burst of 4 Sabots, follow up with the linked Annihilators, and finish with the Heavy Blasters. Repeat. Cruisers need two bursts of 4 sabots and a little more time with the annihilators and HBs, but they'll also die quickly enough. You'll certainly run out of missiles eventually, but not before you've quickly and decisively removed 6 Cruisers or 12 Destroyers from the enemy fleet and potentially won the battle right there. Even then you've still got 2x Heavy Blasters to kill things with, which is a very respectable armament attached to an extremely fast ship.
The Enforcer's a B/B+. Strange as it may seem, it's actually more suitable for AI swarms than as a player-ship, imo at least. 3 Enforcers together is a Kinetic/HE/Frag wrecking-ball that can kill most things in the game outright and can also take missiles in huge numbers.
The Medusa's a B-/D. It's still all-right-ish as a player-ship for alpha-strikes and touch-and-go, but it got nerfed a little too hard last time it got touched, and it's really pretty bad as an AI ship, because it tends to jump right into things it shouldn't, unless you give it beam weapons that keep it far, far away, in which case it's like having two under-powered Wolves.
How come you rate player-piloted Medusa below player-piloted Enforcer?Until this build and the Great Range Nerf, I wouldn't have. Unfortunately, the Medusa's a lot less cool than it used to be. It's not utterly horrible, mind you, but it lost things it needed. Enforcer lost very little in the last changes; it can still mount stuff that is in the same range-band as the Medusa, and, depending on how you arm it, can usually out-perform it in a slugging-match.
Missile boat aurora is really strong.Yeah, once. It's kind of like the Dominator that way, but the Aurora's more likely to get the good flank, etc. I certainly think it's actually worth getting now, for a player-ship. For the AI? Not so much, imo.
QuoteHow come you rate player-piloted Medusa below player-piloted Enforcer?Until this build and the Great Range Nerf, I wouldn't have. Unfortunately, the Medusa's a lot less cool than it used to be. It's not utterly horrible, mind you, but it lost things it needed. Enforcer lost very little in the last changes; it can still mount stuff that is in the same range-band as the Medusa, and, depending on how you arm it, can usually out-perform it in a slugging-match.
Sure, that shield sucks, but if both sides are in range, the Medusa usually wilts first, now, because the Kinetic DPS an Enforcer can push out in the 800 range band is bigger, and the Medusa, despite losing some edge as a speedy kite, still needs to shield-tank, period. I think this is fixable; the Medusa's biggest issue is that losing the shield to Displace is a big problem for it (vs. the Wolf) because the shield takes far longer to deploy, and is thus not as attractive as it should be. Used to be that the Medusa could kite, build Hard Flux in quick bites, then come in to kill with Heavy Blasters; now it's really hard-pressed to perform in that role, because the range differential doesn't work out.
Note that I'm not saying the Medusa's awful. It's just a lot less generally useful than it was, which is too bad, because it and the Enforcer were arguably well-balanced vs. each other and had distinctly different roles.
Hammerhead is a C/C. It's still meh, despite the last buffs. Faster, a little tougher, but under-gunned and it simply doesn't have enough of anything to recommend it. It really needs to be a bit tougher as a shield-tank, imo.Hammerhead is the most powerful destroyer when it comes out to balls out power, though, if we don't count Sunder. Accelerated Ammo Feeder lets it outgun every other destroyer for some time for free, doubly so if you put some light kinetics on hybrid mounts (if you can get some good ones). 4 medium, 4 light guns for a price of 2 & 2 is nothing to sneeze at. Though, admittedly, I don't have experience with flying a fleet of those things, most of the time I fly one personally.
After running some no-skills sim testsI don't even consider those valid, frankly. Skills change the entire character of the ships, to be frank. For example, the Enforcer gets a lot more out of the maneuverability buff than the Medusa does. Is the Medusa better in a 1v1 against an Enforcer? Yes. But that's not what it's for.
Hammerhead is the most powerful destroyer when it comes out to balls out power, though, if we don't count Sunder.Well, I don't count the Sunder, because it's terrible, and the Hammerhead's "power" is basically the same damage output as an Enforcer set up as a gunship, but it's temporary. It's still meh and I don't use one past the Tutorial one.
Well, I don't count the Sunder, because it's terrible, and the Hammerhead's "power" is basically the same damage output as an Enforcer set up as a gunship, but it's temporary. It's still meh and I don't use one past the Tutorial one.It's basically a "win the flux war instantly" button, especially against other destroyers. It's shield are good enough to tank for the duration of AAF and after that whatever Hammerhead is shooting at is almost certainly not in condition to fire back (whether it's due to other ships or simply high flux). AAF might not function always, but Hammerhead has enough mobility to back up and let it recharge.
Re: (Unskilled) AuroraThe key is to use a mix of weapons; two pulse lasers and one heavy blaster is much better than two heavy blasters (lower flux cost, higher dps vs. shields, similar armor-cracking potential), and the ion cannons help a ton too*, since once the enemy starts to get up there on hard flux their weapons start shutting down.
@ Wyvern: That was me. I tried a variety of loadouts. I tried pulse lasers, and while they are a bit more efficient, I could not do much damage before being forced to back off either due to enemy reinforcements or high flux. I tried two heavy blasters with max vents and little else, either I barely win flux war and cannot finish off the enemy or barely lose the flux war. If I use two heavy blasters, max vents, Flux Distributor, and either extra capacitors and/or Hardened Shields, then I can reliably win the flux war (with few shots to spare) against any lone sub-capital, although separating multiple enemies is not always easy.
QuoteAfter running some no-skills sim testsI don't even consider those valid, frankly. Skills change the entire character of the ships, to be frank. For example, the Enforcer gets a lot more out of the maneuverability buff than the Medusa does. Is the Medusa better in a 1v1 against an Enforcer? Yes. But that's not what it's for.
I'd argue that an Enforcer, used well, can be a pretty devastating player-ship. In two senses:
1. As a good solid killer of small vessels.
2. More importantly, as support for a Cruiser.
Most players don't like playing support roles, but that's where the Enforcer shines. Bring up an Eagle and hang out with an Enforcer designed to throw Heavy Mauler and Heavy AC at whatever needs focusing, for example; a leveled Enforcer with Hardened Shields is pretty effective as a finisher, and it can still be providing anti-missile / anti-fighter. The Eagle will do a lot better with your Enforcer around to guard its rear and put Kinetic onto anything that needs to get Flux-locked, and if you get in trouble, you can hide behind the Eagle or use Burn Drive to reposition (Burn Drive's primary purpose, in player hands, is to get out of trouble, not into it).
Re: Sunder
My biggest gripe with Sunder is that the best loadouts require rare to ridiculously rare weapons (light needlers, tachyon lance) that are better used on other ships. That leaves Sunder's best role as disposable clunker found along the way, and you have enough spare pulse lasers or mining blasters and junk missiles to send into battle and hurt things like pirates do before it dies and its loss is of no concern.
Enforcer or Hammerhead on the other hand, are (also) common as dirt, and the weapons they need are Open Market common (even if they are not the best), and they work in a pinch.
@ Goumindong: Graviton and HIL are not exactly Open Market common, and it has limited use. It is effective against some lone destroyers, and I guess it can give distracted targets in fleet action a real bad day, but it cannot solo targets like better loadouts. The point was that I can take Enforcer or Hammerhead (D)s, slap Open Market weapons on them, and they can cause some damage cheaply. For Sunder, the closest I can get to that is Pulse Lasers from Black Market, and the ubiquitous missile racks from loot. Graviton is not too rare, but HIL is semi-rare.
I keep a HIL+gravitons sunder, but I actually never went on to check if it's a good support ship.Simply put, against high-end Bounties in late-game play... no.
For every Enforcer that took an impossible beating is a Hammerhead that took out a destroyer in mere seconds. They are actually pretty complementary, since Hammerhead is a fancy *** who crumbles under pressure, while Enforcer always could use some extra firepower against big fish. I was mainly defending Hammerhead's worth.
I keep a HIL+gravitons sunder, but I actually never went on to check if it's a good support ship. Not sure if it knows to prey on high flux ships. In player hands it's quite nifty deleter of frigates and destroyers and support against bigger ships, but there are better things to pilot.
What did you put in the front ballistic slots?Either nothing or Vulcans. Reasoning was if Sunder is meant to kite at long range (with beams with Advanced Optics and ITU), I would not use Needlers (due to rarity and lack of range). If I was inclined to put non-PD, I probably would use either light AC or maybe dual light AC.
It still kills destroyers and frigates just fine on its own. It’s does 650 shield damage/second to upwards of 1400 range and you cannot just choose to armor tank it for a bit because the HIL ruins sub capital armor.
At the destroyer level only the Medusa has enough flux to tank it; eating 510 out of a potential 600/640. The next best ship (hammerhead) is 230 cap/second behind the Sunder and the Sunder has 1400 range* while the Hamerhead has at most 940
*assuming ITU is applied before beam focus.
I get that. More of many things get better. I guess HIL has the advantage of range and melting anything that is not shields fast.- Very Long Range
- Hitscan beam; instant strike, very low miss chance, takes advantage of any opportunity immediately, constant pressureMore like guided beam. Most beams, especially HIL, are too slow to be hitscan (and too slow to exploit shield drop cheese), although that is moot if the beams can be maintained for a while since the ship can easily steer a fully extended beam toward wherever he wants. Even Tachyon Lance is not quite hitscan, though it is close.
1 Eagle is OK. Three eagles is deadly.They should be. They're eating quite a lot of the Deployment cap at that point.
Apogee is a decent tank but its weapons arrayment don't really suit the role, and it's not fast enough to sustain tank. If it gets overloaded or is maxing out its caps, it's too fragile and not fast enough.Yeah. Apogee was just fine being the shield-tank meta. Now it's broken, and it's my fault for pointing out that it worked really well in its niche role last build ::)
AI in general plays like SpathiLOL...
Don't forget the frigatesSure thing.
QuoteDon't forget the frigatesSure thing.
Dram: F-/C. Totally useless in combat, and with the worst efficiency per ship spent (remember, with limited fleet sizes, we spend ships, not just Deployment Points), for a purely-stat Fuel carrier, the Dram is not useless, and it's great as a starter ship, but that's all. I drop Drams entirely by midgame.
Afflictor: A/C. The Afflictor can be a deadly little assassin, in the hands of a player. As an AI ship, it's all right at best; sometimes it's brilliant, sometimes it eats a Harpoon strike at the darndest time.
Hyperion: B-/C-. The Hyperion's pretty awesome, if you're OK with a ship that can't finish what it starts. It's a pretty nice little ship with a really powerful System that's utterly crippled by the CR timer past early midgame (and you won't even get one that early unless you're absurdly lucky). I don't know what its purpose is at this point; maybe it's meant to be only for Pursuits, where it can out-speed anything else in the game?
Shade: A/B-. See Afflictor.
Wolf: A+/A-. I've probably put more flight-hours on a Wolf than anything else in the game. It's a very versatile, powerful ship in player hands and it can be made into a survivable ship in AI hands. Sure, it's fragile, and it doesn't have amazing firepower in most of the good configurations, but, unlike too many ships in the game, the Wolf's OPs always feel just roomy enough to be functional. The Wolf becomes mere Pursuit material in lategame, but it's very useful up until that point.
I find Hyperion easier to control than phase ships. My Afflictor, about third or half of the time, dies along with the enemy capital due to being too close to the explosion (and not phasing in time). Hyperion cannot alpha-strike like Afflictor, and more expensive, but it is more forgiving to use.
You can also do the opposite, stick as close as possible for the killshot and enemy will explode while you are still unphasing (and thus invulnerable).Would that help if I need Quantum Disruptor before attacking? The main reason I use Afflictor is the Quantum Disruptor and quad Reaper combo. If I need to use Quantum Disruptor to force the enemy to drop shields before attacking, delivering a coup-de-grace while decloaking does not seem to help (because I need to use Quantum Disruptor first to either force enemy to drop shield and/or not fire so many guns at my ship). What I do, get behind capital, decloak, activate disruptor, launch Reapers, then cloak before the target explodes. If my timing is off, the Afflictor fails to cloak in time and dies along with its target.
Relevant post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13353.0)
Would that help if I need Quantum Disruptor before attacking? The main reason I use Afflictor is the Quantum Disruptor and quad Reaper combo. If I need to use Quantum Disruptor to force the enemy to drop shields before attacking, delivering a coup-de-grace while decloaking does not seem to help (because I need to use Quantum Disruptor first to either force enemy to drop shield and/or not fire so many guns at my ship). What I do, get behind capital, decloak, activate disruptor, launch Reapers, then cloak before the target explodes. If my timing is off, the Afflictor fails to cloak in time and dies along with its target.
Ok, I like Wolf too, but A+? It's solid, but most of the time soloing a DE is it's ceiling, not Capitals like the 2 above.You can totally solo Cruisers with one, if you can peel their escorts away.
QuoteOk, I like Wolf too, but A+? It's solid, but most of the time soloing a DE is it's ceiling, not Capitals like the 2 above.You can totally solo Cruisers with one, if you can peel their escorts away.
...but that's how we actually play ;)
In all seriousness, I can't take skill-less Simulator runs seriously, as a means to "compare" ships, weapons, etc., etc. None of that matters, outside Missions, which aren't the core game. Skills matter; they still turn some trash ships into reasonable bets and some decent ships like the Wolf into killers.
Skills usually don't change way a ship works too much and affect similar ships in similar ways. So skill-less performance is decent enough predictor of max skill performance(outside of Carriers), and is easier to measure.I agree with this.
We cannot get all of the skills, and if we want to be the best in combat, we must sacrifice everything not directly involved in combat (no Industry, no Navigation). Not only that, due to the skill system, player that wants to be optimal for a given ship may not be for another ship. If I want to be the best Astral pilot, I will need skills that are useless for the best Paragon pilot. If I want some campaign QoL skills, I will never be the best combat pilot. This would not be a problem if skills could be reset and retrained, but since that will not be an option, player must specialize to be the best with a ship and lock himself away from other ships - that hurts. That is why I dislike playing carrier specialists, because I am stuck with three ships to pilot: Drover, Heron, or Astral.As for the few ships that can mix brawling and carrying well, namely Legion (and Odyssey, in theory), there are not enough skills for being great at brawling and carrying (and the few great all-purpose skills everyone needs). Requires too many points (for everything that makes brawlers and carriers good). The best they can do is a generalist build that works for any ship, but that will never be as optimal as a build for a specific dedicated-role ship.
As for the few ships that can mix brawling and carrying well, namely Legion (and Odyssey, in theory), there are not enough skills for being great at brawling and carrying (and the few great all-purpose skills everyone needs). Requires too many points (for everything that makes brawlers and carriers good). The best they can do is a generalist build that works for any ship, but that will never be as optimal as a build for a specific dedicated-role ship.
There's no such thing as "S+" by DR's rubric here. S is as high as it gets. ;) And, while we're at it, what on earth do you have in your head that could possibly be higher than S? :o
The easiest way for a bigger ship to win against a single smaller ship is waiting for the smaller ship to run out of gas, especially if the bigger ship has no chance to catch up to the smaller ship. It is boring, but effective.
Tempest can get it's glory minute with SO, but really it's not that impressive compared to phase frigates or Hyperion even during this limited time-frame.
Also, what's with this obsession with nerfing frigates?
Just going to throw my thoughts in because I was doing something like this anyways:
Enforcer: C? I look at the loadout and keep thinking it should be better, but I've almost never been impressed with them.
Afflictor: no idea. I've almost never gotten one.
Hyperion- Can't really class it. From what i've seen it's no where near worth it in the hands of the AI and fails critically in every possible way, even with builds that don't really take advantage of it's nature. In human hands it's a very expensive way to get to delete a few ships before leaving. I suspect it's really more of a B since it's just so damn impractical when you can accomplish most of the same effect that it has with other, less interesting, ships.
Monitor- D. Might just be me again but this is like a Brawler/Mora, but with shields....oh and unlike those ships you never actually care if it's still alive. The mora is a real threat and the brawler is a big enough thorn that you're often stuck trying to avoid it since killing it is a pain. I mostly just ignore monitors and feel that it's gone the same way when i've used them.
Shade- another phase ship, another hard to say.
Also how are we judging a ships ability when alone vs in a fleet?Always in fleet, always as an AI ship first then +/- as a player ship
A Griffon alone is kinda bad, but when escorted can murder entire frigate fleets when equipped with a locust launcher.
So I've found a Shade variant that works horrifyingly well with the AI. 2 lmg's, 2 AM blasters, reinforced hull and hardened subsystems, 12 vents, 9 caps, and a skilled reckless officer.
I know we usually evaluate in the absence of skills, but this thing is a beast. Its performing as a nightmare cruiser, partially because the AI is using its system really well - the usual sequence is it pops up in something's engines, fires 2 am blasts, then activates its system, both locking down the enemy ship and recharging its flux.
if you nerf HB, it will likely become completely uselessTotally.
I disagree most strongly about the Heavy Blaster, and consider it a powerful weapon. Just not all powerful.Hey, in all fairness, it's not the worst gun in the game. I just think it fails the, "if I had a Universal, I'd still use it" test.
To be fair, the game is -balanced- around the notion that ballistic weapons are generally superior to energy weapons, so an energy weapon failing that test is, um, not really a good indicator of anything.QuoteI disagree most strongly about the Heavy Blaster, and consider it a powerful weapon. Just not all powerful.Hey, in all fairness, it's not the worst gun in the game. I just think it fails the, "if I had a Universal, I'd still use it" test.
Versus Armor, it's 500 damage for 720 Flux; Heavy Mortar delivers 440 for 180, with 100 more range, which is pretty much the sole use case where it outshines the Pulse Laser's nice steady 300 for 333.
I think that we can all agree that the Heavy Mortar's not exactly OP?
To be fair, the game is -balanced- around the notion that ballistic weapons are generally superior to energy weapons, so an energy weapon failing that test is, um, not really a good indicator of anything.And that is bad. Energy weapons should be different, not be outright inferior. They should be good enough that they are a viable alternative for midline ships or non-high-tech with universals. I would like non-beam and non-EMP energy weapons to have some advantage. Even high-tech ships need overwhelming flux stats advantage to win flux wars with energy weapons.
Energy weapons should be different, not be outright inferior.Exactly my point. Look, the HB's not awful for the ships it's put on. But the ships have to make it work. I honestly think the game would've been better from the start without the concept of Energy Slots; it's caused no end of balancing headaches.
QuoteEnergy weapons should be different, not be outright inferior.Exactly my point. Look, the HB's not awful for the ships it's put on. But the ships have to make it work. I honestly think the game would've been better from the start without the concept of Energy Slots; it's caused no end of balancing headaches.
QuoteI disagree most strongly about the Heavy Blaster, and consider it a powerful weapon. Just not all powerful.Hey, in all fairness, it's not the worst gun in the game. I just think it fails the, "if I had a Universal, I'd still use it" test.
Versus Armor, it's 500 damage for 720 Flux; Heavy Mortar delivers 440 for 180, with 100 more range, which is pretty much the sole use case where it outshines the Pulse Laser's nice steady 300 for 333.
I think that we can all agree that the Heavy Mortar's not exactly OP?
I think the problem with the heavy blaster is that it is only useful in player hands of on a few specific ships or with extreme flux stats. It's just too much flux/s for the AI to handle well. It's very good but only situationally.
The 5/10/20 represents opportunity cost of picking a weapon, in line with the baseline OP a ship receives per slot. Empirically, we know that a 0 OP weapon isn’t infinitely efficient because there’s essentially no penalty for using your entire OP allotment.
As for the overall efficiency, it’s DPS divided by (base OP plus opportunity cost plus OP required to cancel out the flux cost). It combines OP and flux efficiency as a basic indication of how much bang you get for your buck.
Well *** me for trying then.
I don't know why I've thought Phase Beams are bad, but with kinetics to back them up and advanced optics, they are very effective. Armor penetration is equivalent to a 625 damage shot, making them effective against even the toughest ships. And they are fantastic at popping fighters - a single shot will destroy a Warthog. Was fighting against a pair of skilled Mora's, 1 a 1x Broadsword 2x Warthog, the other the Khopesh variant, with me and an AI controlled Falcon in the area - and we stomped all the wings with ease.There are not too many ships that can do that. Falcon and Eagle are practically it. Medusa used to do that for great effect in 0.7.x, but it does not seem very effective for Medusa in 0.8.x. Doom with old cloak was good at it, but with new cloak, Doom will take too much damage if it tries that.
[Phase Beam] armor penetration is equivalent to a 625 damage shot, making them effective against even the toughest ships.Actually, it's 500 armor penetration. Which is still quite good; the rest of your argument holds even with the correct number. Burst beam armor penetration values can't be found in the in-game codex - see this post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.msg208348#msg208348) for details.
[Phase Beam] armor penetration is equivalent to a 625 damage shot, making them effective against even the toughest ships.Actually, it's 500 armor penetration. Which is still quite good; the rest of your argument holds even with the correct number. Burst beam armor penetration values can't be found in the in-game codex - see this post (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=12268.msg208348#msg208348) for details.
Tempest is probably S because it's just stupidly powerful.
The Tempest is definitely S. Hyperion is more like B++.
Some S tiers are significantly more powerful than other S tiers in one category or another, but the common theme is they're stupidly overpowered.Which Tempest is not. Powerful, yes. Overpowered? Not... really in the 0.8 era.
... The reason Tempest seems overpowered is because most of the conventional frigates are kind of junky...
TLDR: If conventional frigates are "junk", then you need to move your measuring stick.Simply put, no.
RubricWhat you posted as reasons for an S in your last post sounds more like a A, maybe A+ at best, than a S. Tempest is simply very good at its job (i.e., unambiguously powerful and best-in-class), not so-called "broken". If Tempest could obliterate fleets on its own (like it used to), or even simply outfight an A-class capital like Paragon (which Tempest cannot do today), then I would agree with an S ranking.
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game. Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class. Typically the best option for a given role.
And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.
And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.
And that's why I will not be finishing my tier list.
The reason is that I'm out of touch. I barely even play the game anymore.So do I, every update pulls me back in for quite a few hours. It's not like the game changed while you weren't playing, it's not an MMO.
Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.
Reasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.
Rubric
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game. Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class. Typically the best option for a given role.
QuoteReasonable and respectful, constructive criticism following the guidelines you yourself made?Gratuitous jab that doesn't hold water given that the "constructive" criticism is made relative to very skewed and specific solo playstyle requirements. The Tempest isn't worth a S for Megas, but he himself admits not playing the game like most people do, or was intended to.
Well... thats a bit revisionist. Megas wasn't the first person to say that the Tempest isn't S, he just agreed with it and gave his own personal reasons.
I play pretty "normal", though I tend to stop once I have a few capitals because more isn't very interesting yet (fingers crossed for level 3 stations!), and I play on ironman so sometimes suffer nasty losses and need to deal with that. I don't usually use junk ships and industry because I don't find it very fun, though I've done two runs with it. Sometimes I'll do a carrier heavy fleet, other times not. I start with either the usual tutorial start, though sometimes I'll do single frigate for nostalgia. Tempest is not S class for me - its A.Rubric
S: Powerful to the point that it breaks the game. Extremely OP; clearly better than everything else.
A: Unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class. Typically the best option for a given role.
Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game? No. If in the early game there's a Tempest in the enemy fleet then I just either set a pair of Talons or a mixed interceptor wing after it, or 2 fastish frigates. It can pick off stragglers so I need to be careful fighting it and not let my frigates fly off alone, but then so could a Medusa to frigates or Aurora to destroyers. If in my fleet a Tempest is a nice powerful ship, but it does not perform any miracles. Phase ships are S class - they perform miracles, even under AI control.
Is it clearly better than everything else? No. Both phase frigates are better at capturing points, better at surviving, better against cruiser and capital threats, better at instantly ganking an enemy when given the 'eliminate command', and better against fighters! The Omen is a better escort and better against fighters. Monitors are tougher and a better escort. Scarabs are (or would be if they weren't impossibly rare) comparable. Lashers are better fodder (kinda stupid, but kinda not - if I need to distract an overwhelming enemy to protect another ship (say in an escape scenario or to save a cruiser from a capital), I would much rather use a disposable Lasher than a rare Tempest).
Is it unambiguously powerful, enough that it can be considered best-in-class? Yes, if we consider the "class" to be a normal gunship frigate. Is it typically the best option for a given role? Yes, if what you want is a normal gunship. But as discussed above it is not the best for all roles.
Going by the rubric the Tempest is a pretty textbook 'A'. Best in class, not game breaking.
Comparing it to the other ranked ships - the only others that were given an A rank are the Onslaught (A- due to vulnerability to flanking), Paragon (A+), and Aurora (A+). Can the Tempest do to frigates what those ships can do to their own classes? For normal situations/builds, yes it can. Does the Tempest deserve a '+' denoting that in situations it can perform at the S level? ... Maybe, but I don't think so. Think about what an elite weapon Paragon or a sabot Aurora with proper fire groups can pull off. The Tempest cannot match that.
How is Tempest easy to get, let alone amass for a swarm?Even you're somehow able to make a "swarm" of tempest, they're no match for carrier making fighter deathball :-\
I can believe they do miracles in player hands, but I have a hard time believing they perform meaningful ones. I can generally kill a whole bunch of ships of any size in an actual battle with a tempest, and I can generally do the same with a phase ship. I sometimes find the tempest easier to succeed with simply because it's easier to execute and stays in the fight longer (and again, just sending an ion pulse drone after the proper targets is easy and very powerful).
Again I see no point in who can 1v1 a paragon or some other kind of comparison better because it's not a realistic or common situation. Wiping out several capital ships and cruisers in quick succession in a real fight is, and it's something they both do more than well enough to the point that figuring out who's the best (almost certainly phase ships), no longer matters because it doesn't actually affect play anymore.
Now THAT's odd.
I gave the tempest an A+/S rating, so clarification on my thoughts on this:
"Is it powerful to the point it breaks the game?-"
Arguably. Again my issue is that you should ALWAYS get a tempest, it's easy to get a tempest, and they only get better as you get more because they don't just have to be player piloted, and they're easy to replace. Not the easiest, but still simple compared to the gain to the point that it feels like if I don't stop myself from using the tempest I will only use the tempest. (my personal nerf would likely just be an OP increase and a rarity bump though).
They're not much of a threat to the player because the game doesn't throw packs at you, but I think they'd be a huge problem if you created a common early game fleet of say 8 of them as a fast picket running multiple variants.Yeah sure, they do post a threat to early game fleets, but as the game progress and fleet size increasing they become less and less effective.
I can believe they do miracles in player hands, but I have a hard time believing they perform meaningful ones. I can generally kill a whole bunch of ships of any size in an actual battle with a tempest, and I can generally do the same with a phase ship. I sometimes find the tempest easier to succeed with simply because it's easier to execute and stays in the fight longer (and again, just sending an ion pulse drone after the proper targets is easy and very powerful).Just, how long does your Tempest need to take out a paragon in your so-called "real" fight?
Again I see no point in who can 1v1 a paragon or some other kind of comparison better because it's not a realistic or common situation. Wiping out several capital ships and cruisers in quick succession in a real fight is, and it's something they both do more than well enough to the point that figuring out who's the best (almost certainly phase ships), no longer matters because it doesn't actually affect play anymore.
I'm now wondering what build you're using on tempest? I don't see any medium energy can out-range cruisers WHILE packing heavy hits.
I will also point out that one of the reasons i put it on the line with an S tier is because it's very simple to mass tempests. If you mass paragons you'll break the game, but it's not realistic and by the time you've done that you should expect to break things. Massing phase ships is also hard. Massing tempests feels much much easier.
Now THAT's odd.That is probably why Centurion was made. Imitation Monitor, except now that Damper Field was gutted to make Mora easier to kill, Centurion is merely fodder.
I thought rarity was NOT taken into consideration when you're making a tier list about HOW GOOD they are.
For instance, are monitors good? Sure they ARE, they draw heavy fire easily and help ally ships win the flux war.
But FFS they're so rare that I never meet second monitor in any game, but THAT shouldn't be a reason to rank it lower.
Now THAT's odd.That is probably why Centurion was made. Imitation Monitor, except now that Damper Field was gutted to make Mora easier to kill, Centurion is merely fodder.
I thought rarity was NOT taken into consideration when you're making a tier list about HOW GOOD they are.
For instance, are monitors good? Sure they ARE, they draw heavy fire easily and help ally ships win the flux war.
But FFS they're so rare that I never meet second monitor in any game, but THAT shouldn't be a reason to rank it lower.
Would be nice of there was a proper midline frigate gunship, like a frigate-size Hammerhead or Eagle. Brawler and Vigilance aren't it, Kite isn't it, Monitor isn't it, and neither is Centurion.
Hopefully, blueprints will fix much of the unfun rarity nonsense. Rarity is why I use mostly clunkers, even if it is not fun, because grinding replacement rare stuff for hours or days is worse.
@Megas
Er, isn't that the Lasher? Aside from having no energy weapons, it's relative stats perfectly reflect a midline frigate, and is so similar to the Hammerhead I'm not sure how it could be mistaken otherwise.
IMO the 'tanky' frigates are balanced fine as they are. They're distinctly tankier than other frigates and can serve that role well against other frigates. What? You want to use frigate sized costs to tank against destroyers and cruisers? And combine that with frigate speeds? Uh...yeah that's balanced T_TSuch walls may be fine as support, but as an all-purpose gunship, it is useless because the enemy AI is so cowardly. If your offense is bad, and the enemy turtles, then it is a stalemate at first, then everyone dies due to both sides running out of CR.
And Damper Field should either scale inversely with ship size or Mora should lose it. Better arcs on the Centurion could help too, same goes for the Wayfarer. Most of the new frigates seem to be going for the "360 degrees small turret coverage" and the only one it works for is Scarab and the only reason for that is because it can bring 5 of them to bear in the front.It only works for Scarab because of Temporal Shell that lets Scarab force battles and dodge bullets. However, it cannot support IR Pulse Lasers on all five front mounts due to lack of flux stats. So far, the out-of-the-box 0.7 era Experimental(?) variant is probably one of, if not, the best loadout for Scarab. One IR Pulse for damage, one ion cannon to disable, one AM Blaster to overload shields, and missiles to finish off enemies.
It only works for Scarab because of Temporal Shell that lets Scarab force battles and dodge bullets. However, it cannot support IR Pulse Lasers on all five front mounts due to lack of flux stats. So far, the out-of-the-box 0.7 era Experimental(?) variant is probably one of, if not, the best loadout for Scarab. One IR Pulse for damage, one ion cannon to disable, one AM Blaster to overload shields, and missiles to finish off enemies.On topic of Scarab.
The reason is that I'm out of touch. I barely even play the game anymore. I'm quoting out-of-date behaviors on a ship I haven't used in my fleet in more than a year IRL.
The whole list is the rantings of an armchair general.