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Starsector => General Discussion => Blog Posts => Topic started by: David on March 02, 2018, 05:29:51 PM

Title: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 02, 2018, 05:29:51 PM
Blog post here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2018/03/02/zen-and-the-art-of-battlestation-construction/).

(I suppose the title is ever so slightly misleading. This is actually about battlestation game design but I don't want to give up that title.)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: SafariJohn on March 02, 2018, 06:01:11 PM
Should have used a Pather Kite ;)


I can't wait for part 2!
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Techhead on March 02, 2018, 06:02:50 PM
I kinda feel bad for all the unused art that was dropped in development iterations. I think the underlay modules looked especially cool.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Histidine on March 02, 2018, 06:41:57 PM
Ha, I thought of star forts the moment I read the part with this image:
(http://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/ring_vs_star.jpg)

Ahh, the things you pick up from a loose interest in early modern period warfare. (Thanks, Eric Flint!)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Dal on March 02, 2018, 07:10:49 PM
It does sound like you guys are approaching the classic fort design problem. The good news is you have literally hundreds of interesting and in some cases really creative real-world solutions for this exact challenge. I for one would not mind seeing some proper Star Forts (groan) in the game. You could even have the sophistication rise with tech level, similar to how it did in the real world.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 02, 2018, 07:35:57 PM
Should have used a Pather Kite ;)

I thought I'd make like certain eccentric billionaires and go with the sports-car option.

(Thanks, Eric Flint!)

(Yup, read that one. Side-note: there was an interesting War Nerd podcast recently saying Gustavus Adolphus is overrated and the anglo world is too fanboy about him, which is ... probably true. But that's a bit of a tangent!)

I for one would not mind seeing some proper Star Forts (groan) in the game.

 8)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 02, 2018, 07:42:47 PM
So we need space-barbed-wires and space-trenches. Also space-machineguns...wait we have that already. nvm

I like how you approached the design by thinking the player approaches - form follows function eh?
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: frag971 on March 02, 2018, 07:54:03 PM
Obviously still waiting on the next part, but a few things came to mind:

Will there be major variations on stations? One may have an XXL cannon in the middle (but very slow turn rate?), while another may have several overlapping directional shields? To differentiate them.

On the subject of station identity, i thought of various ways to specialize a station:
* One mega cannon in the centre that favours fleets with multiple smaller ships than fewer larger ones.

* "Infinite" fighter squadrons being thrown at the attackers ad nauseum.

* Multiple overlapping directional shields (and respective FLUX bars) that favour splitting up the fleet rather than concentrating on a single point.

* R&R berthing arms for smaller defending ships to restore ammo and readiness,

* Asteroids orbiting the station providing a platforming hazard.

* A solar collector on a station placed close to a star that periodically vacuums up star material for power. Any ship caught in the stream will get pushed into the station.

* Asteroid stations - instead of having those fancy circular stations perhaps have a rocky asteroid with station modules sticking out of it (*whispering* these can be procedurally generated).

* An agglomeration of smaller stations into a space favela.

That said - I imagined the stations to be WAY larger, like, a third of a station spanning the entire battle map from left to right with us fighting our way into it, with frigates/fighters going inside and blowing up the core or something. These just feel like very large battleships that happen to be circular.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: PyroFuzz on March 02, 2018, 08:04:22 PM
Those Battlestations are sick. I can't wait to see what the modding community does!  ;D
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Lanvrik on March 02, 2018, 09:27:54 PM
Can a station have both rotating and counter-rotating segments?
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Thaago on March 02, 2018, 10:26:41 PM
You know, I almost always ended up using marines to disable the weapon systems on stations. Lets not do that :P.

Also, suddenly I feel like my fleets are going to need more Piranhas.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Goumindong on March 02, 2018, 11:17:56 PM
One of the reasons that the [REDACTED] design worked was because of what they call in Starcraft “a good concave”.

The idea is that in order to effectively focus fire your troops need to all be at the same distance from the enemy and so this makes a concave around them. With the same number of troops fighting against each other the side that will win(micro aside) is the one with the better concave. The side with the better concave will be fighting a series of 10 v 1s while the side without will be fighting 10 1v1s. This should be intuitive for any experienced player in this game too. If the enemy has equal quality ships and you’re surrounded you’re going to go down fast.

The “circle” pattern naturally makes it easy to get a good concave against a base even if the turrets have > 180 deg firing arcs. It’s almost impossible to get a bad one and the range issue as it turns makes it hard for higher tech to make up for it.  

The “Star” pattern makes it easy as well, but only against the points. So if the points are hardest and the center is dangerous then when the center comes around things get painful. This is actually really good game design as well because it produces lulls in the fight (and because fleet control is not fine enough to not get wrecked by something that would always have a good concave)

There is a better pattern than both though.

The first pattern is an honest pattern. It has three concave sections like the star design. However, instead of being fixed the entire section pivots around a center point. Each one has a bevy of turrets on the doing their things. Such the most forward section can pivot to focus fire dangerous ships and the other two can pivot to marginally protect the points of the leading concave. If fully surrounded it becomes a star design that can make mistakes. But otherwise it’s pretty ideal.

The second pattern is dishonest. It’s also a concave but it’s not something you can exploit to focus on a side. That is because it’s a concave that takes up the entire side of a map . For good measure it’s fit entirely with Gauss Cannons and Harpoon MRM pods. Ha ha try surrounding that suckers!

Edit: as an aside the next version really needs to have infinite supplies and fuel at least. It is pretty annoying coming back from or setting out to somewhere and it simply being impossible to find the fuel to do it while everyone else burns around like it ain’t no thing. I know it doesn’t fit with the theme of the game but it’s gotta be playable before it fits the theme
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Camael on March 03, 2018, 01:01:46 AM
Can a station have both rotating and counter-rotating segments?

I think that might be a possible solution to the "just running down weak spots one after another"-issue. After all, just looking at the station I want to kill it, and got some ideas on how to do it. Shoot off the tips, then start focussing on the weak sides etc. - maybe the engine can be made to give us actually "existing" modules rotating in the counter-direction, also armed to the teeth. Maybe at a two different "ring"-sizes. That way weak spots would only pop up from time to time at different angles, favouring more of a hit and run game than a sit there and grind it down slowly-one. Would also exponentially increase the firepower and durability of the stations, as shields rotating away from the enemy regenerate/vent while others get into the fray, without increasing size. More focus on mobility for attacking fleets, instead of firepower in order to keep hitting the same target, more focus on alpha strike potential and coordinated bombing-runs than staying power - makes little sense to try and directly outgun a starbase that can effectively grow in size indefinitely without worries about inertia and mobility. Might be a great space-age solution instead of walls and mountains to funnel enemies into the right spots...

Also, I think modules should not detonate particularly violently. As the station's "core" is the most well protected area, it would make sense that internal infrastructure would place explody parts like missile storage and reactors close to the center instead of fitting each module with their own nuke. Due to the concentrated ring-shape the connections would not be weak spots until most of the external defenses were shot off anyway. Unless, maybe, it's a civillian station, where safety goes first and dangerous stuff is placed further away from the internal shelters. (Considering ressource scarcity in the sector, it would however be reasonable to assume that nobody would fire at the center much as they would not want to blow up the loot...)
A different approach would be to have the modules detach and "blow off" when critically damaged, only detonating when pushed away from the station to a relatively safe distance. Little harm for the station, but fun for those that just scored a minor victory in the skirmish... "sir, we have taken out their fighter-bays. Also, they are now flying in our direction and their battleship-size reactor is overloading...".
Think the whole explody-parts issue might come up with counter-rotating modules present...
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Madao on March 03, 2018, 04:41:25 AM
Well, I feel ever so giddy after reading all that.. Is it excitement? Is it a hint of nervousness at the thought of sending my own fleet against such a monster? Possibly both.

Taking a beast like that out will be amazing.. Currently I can't imagine how I'd do it without losing a few and a half ships. Can we assume there will be some associated benefits to taking down a planets station such as raiding privileges?
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Megas on March 03, 2018, 05:45:12 AM
Quote
Stations also get a unique hull system which provides all of their weapons with a huge range boost so you can’t sit at max range and plink the station to death.
So far, the Remnant battlestation manages this by having Gunnery Implants 3 on top of Targeting Supercomputer.  Without it, beam Paragon with max range and max ECM will outrange the battlestation (except maybe Gauss Cannons, which Paragon can shrug off, and fighters, which get mowed down) and can leisurely pick off modules one-by-one.

If the new battlestations do not automatically get Gunnery Implants 3, then station-killer Paragon might make a triumphant return, unless something changes, like bigger range bonus on Targeting Supercomputer or other change.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: SafariJohn on March 03, 2018, 08:39:20 AM
The mention of small defense platforms reminds me of one idea for space mines I've seen - instead of being tiny, sneaky things they're huge, well-armored, and equipped with flak guns to defend themselves.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 03, 2018, 08:57:58 AM
I like how you approached the design by thinking the player approaches - form follows function eh?

I feel like this is basically "the Starsector design philosophy". Figure out desired player experience first, then make the game fit that.

Will there be major variations on stations? One may have an XXL cannon in the middle (but very slow turn rate?), while another may have several overlapping directional shields? To differentiate them.
...
That said - I imagined the stations to be WAY larger, like, a third of a station spanning the entire battle map from left to right with us fighting our way into it, with frigates/fighters going inside and blowing up the core or something.

I can't respond to every point, but the giant cannon and station size are things I thought about while writing the post. First, giant cannons: certainly the thought occurs, but we gotta be really careful about introducing elements that break the bounds of existing systems. It either introduces additional complexity to stable systems, thus creating more work, or it's a special case (also more work). ... Come to think of it, the paragraph about choosing when to indulge covers this pretty well.

That said, mods are allowed to get way crazier with content because they don't have to support the same level of stability/balance (nor are they building, you know, the whole foundation of the game).

Same deal for stations that take up a significant portion of the map - this would involve turning Starsector's tactical battles into something more akin to tower defense or an RTS. Or, at least, it would radically change how ship AI has to think about the battlefield on a fundamental level, which would involve re-writing ... a lot of stuff. Again, I could see a mod pushing the limits here though I fully expect it'd run into AI and performance issues.

(Do we never indulge in crazy stuff? Of course not! Just gotta be reaalllly considered about making that choice, is all.)

Those Battlestations are sick. I can't wait to see what the modding community does!  ;D

Thanks; same!

You know, I almost always ended up using marines to disable the weapon systems on stations. Lets not do that :P.

(... I probably should have used that trick more often. IIRC, mostly I abused missile-boats.)

Can a station have both rotating and counter-rotating segments?

Yes, it's possible to set a rotation for an individual module. You can do ... interesting things.

(explodey module, station counter-rotation stuff)

You can, in fact, set a module to always - or never - detach upon death. I'm pretty sure there's a reduced explosion hullmod too; pretty sure the armour pieces use it? And, as mentioned, rotation can be set per-module. So everything you mention here should be possible! :D

Can we assume there will be some associated benefits to taking down a planets station such as raiding privileges?

Campaign layer effects? Can't quite comment yet! (But we've discussed lots of Fun Stuff ;)

Quote
Stations also get a unique hull system which provides all of their weapons with a huge range boost so you can’t sit at max range and plink the station to death.
So far, the Remnant battlestation manages this by having Gunnery Implants 3 on top of Targeting Supercomputer.  Without it, beam Paragon with max range and max ECM will outrange the battlestation (except maybe Gauss Cannons, which Paragon can shrug off, and fighters, which get mowed down) and can leisurely pick off modules one-by-one.

If the new battlestations do not automatically get Gunnery Implants 3, then station-killer Paragon might make a triumphant return, unless something changes, like bigger range bonus on Targeting Supercomputer or other change.

*narrows eyes, submits report to HEGNAVINT*
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Chaos Blade on March 03, 2018, 12:13:25 PM
Interesting article, as always, though discussing stations by themselves might be a bit counterproductive, I mean odds are all stations will have attendant fleets for defense or even some sort of short range parasyte craft, a type of design that only stations could operate, u sing fighter mechanics, bascially, but far, far larger than fighters (so that we won't be able to operate off a flight deck) I am talking about a dedicated defense system, bascially, but unlike the station, mobile.

or like others have suggested having some sort of "armed sats" with a lot of firepower and weapons and a very limied mobility to serve as a further line of defense.

Still, some of those ideas would add a lot of clutter to the battle, not sure if with the current command system adding too much complexity would be desireable
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Thaago on March 03, 2018, 07:22:59 PM
Interesting article, as always, though discussing stations by themselves might be a bit counterproductive, I mean odds are all stations will have attendant fleets for defense or even some sort of short range parasyte craft, a type of design that only stations could operate, u sing fighter mechanics, bascially, but far, far larger than fighters (so that we won't be able to operate off a flight deck) I am talking about a dedicated defense system, bascially, but unlike the station, mobile.

or like others have suggested having some sort of "armed sats" with a lot of firepower and weapons and a very limied mobility to serve as a further line of defense.

Still, some of those ideas would add a lot of clutter to the battle, not sure if with the current command system adding too much complexity would be desireable

Attendant fleets can really up the challenge. The worst surprise spanking I've had (recently) was when two enemy Astrals decided to hide behind/to the side of a station (in Nex, so its close to the top of the screen). That... did not go well. At all.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Machine on March 03, 2018, 08:17:45 PM
I suppose mods will still be able to set a layer of decor modules underneath a station, even if it is no longer going to be used in the base game, right?
also regarding those deco modules (which I guess didn't have collision), would they be drawn below everything? even other ships passing over them?.

I wanted to use them to add large struts for some megastructures, and if neutral entities were possible custom background stuff in missions
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Schwartz on March 04, 2018, 12:58:27 AM
It's always interesting to see the progression. I definitely agree with the end result. An overarching colour theme works better than little blots of blue, yellow and red. The arms and independent shields are a cool idea. It's all very combat-focused - I assume that's what stations do? But some more protruding girders, docking ports, clamps, maybe even bulky modules that are largely cargo etc. would be nice if the stations actually service ships. Maybe there could be both - stations that are more utilitarian and therefore easier to handle, and pure combat fortresses.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Histidine on March 05, 2018, 03:24:18 AM
Alex's Twitter has a time-lapse of the level 2 station in action (https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/970381990938718209)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: nomadic_leader on March 05, 2018, 10:58:04 AM
Pedantry ahead:

Outsides look nice, but the insides aren't so compelling, and the graphics for them look less well developed

1. It looks like the main habitat areas are in the inside, since that's where all the little windows are. But shouldn't the hab areas be as far from the center of rotation as possible to reduce Coriolis effect?

2. Not a physicist/engineer here, but wouldn't having asymmetrical distribution of bastions and other mass-intensive protrusions  (as seen in the final versions of the graphics) throw the center of mass away from the center of the wheel and cause various subtle but undesirable outcomes?

Please nobody respond with "oh so you want realism and it's a 2d space game!" because that's not an interesting or original response. Scientifically sound analyses and convoluted technobabble justifications only please!
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: icepick37 on March 05, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
It's fascinating to see this stuff under the hood, thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 05, 2018, 12:35:45 PM

1. It looks like the main habitat areas are in the inside, since that's where all the little windows are. But shouldn't the hab areas be as far from the center of rotation as possible to reduce Coriolis effect?

2. Not a physicist/engineer here, but wouldn't having asymmetrical distribution of bastions and other mass-intensive protrusions  (as seen in the final versions of the graphics) throw the center of mass away from the center of the wheel and cause various subtle but undesirable outcomes?


1. The Coriolis effect would get stronger as you get further from the center of rotation. I don't think that phenomenon is what you were thinking of though. The reason to have habitats further from the center of gravity would be to maximize the centripetal force which could be used as a sort of artificial gravity. Being towards the edge of the station however would make you more exposed to external threats so it would make sense for a military station to have habitation towards the center. If any sort of sci-fi artificial gravity existed, then there would be no reason to put habitants anywhere other than the safest location on the station (ie the center).

2. Having an offset center of mass would mostly mean that centripetal forces would not be uniform around the hub structure. This could presumably be designed for structurally but it would be strange for occupants since they would feel heavier in some places on the station. Again, 'hand wavy' artificial gravity could presumably compensate for this.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Linnis on March 06, 2018, 01:45:24 AM
Hey David. What do you imagine stations as? Do they primarily handle planet defenses or are they more like a commerce hub, or perhaps a "gateway"?

In my mind all those satellite things orbiting a planet are its defense platforms preventing people coming and going, and shooting at the planet from orbit sort of things. Will there be other more "military" or "civilian" immobile things we have to deal with?

Maybe an military stations where its a box shaped things with lots of hangars and big 360 turning guns?

Are the rotating cylinder stations the extent of stations we will fight?
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Embolism on March 06, 2018, 04:40:15 AM
Pedantry ahead:

Outsides look nice, but the insides aren't so compelling, and the graphics for them look less well developed

1. It looks like the main habitat areas are in the inside, since that's where all the little windows are. But shouldn't the hab areas be as far from the center of rotation as possible to reduce Coriolis effect?

2. Not a physicist/engineer here, but wouldn't having asymmetrical distribution of bastions and other mass-intensive protrusions  (as seen in the final versions of the graphics) throw the center of mass away from the center of the wheel and cause various subtle but undesirable outcomes?

Please nobody respond with "oh so you want realism and it's a 2d space game!" because that's not an interesting or original response. Scientifically sound analyses and convoluted technobabble justifications only please!

If you want to argue these then you should really first be arguing the far more important effect of ships being built like seafaring vessels rather than rockets, which means every time a ship goes to Burn speed its occupants would be squashed like pancakes against the back wall. Not that being squashed like pancakes against the floor is much better but at least its the same direction of force as surface gravity.

Since ships (if you want to justify it) don't kill their occupants when they go to Burn speed, they must have some way of nullifying the effects of lethal acceleration. If such technology exists then the comparatively miniscule force of a spinning space station and whatever "negative effects" that causes would be child's play to negate.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 06, 2018, 09:10:46 AM
... I mean odds are all stations will have attendant fleets for defense or even some sort of short range parasyte craft, a type of design that only stations could operate ...

or like others have suggested having some sort of "armed sats" with a lot of firepower and weapons and a very limied mobility to serve as a further line of defense.

Still, some of those ideas would add a lot of clutter to the battle, not sure if with the current command system adding too much complexity would be desireable

I don't imagine we'd add a new class of fighter just for stations, though we certainly have for faction differentiation. And yeah, as mentioned in the blog post, we did consider defense platforms. Might try out more with them and see if they add to the whole set of systems.

But as you say, keeping clarity to what's going on is a really important design goal behind all of this.

I suppose mods will still be able to set a layer of decor modules underneath a station ...

I imagine so; I'll leave it to Alex to confirm it as a mod-capable ability.

It's all very combat-focused - I assume that's what stations do? But some more protruding girders, docking ports, clamps, maybe even bulky modules that are largely cargo etc. would be nice if the stations actually service ships. Maybe there could be both - stations that are more utilitarian and therefore easier to handle, and pure combat fortresses.

For the purposes of what a player sees in tactical battles, we're keeping everything combat-focused. My though (as mentioned in the blog) is that the station is a spindle-type design so all the civilian modules are hidden "under" this ring of combat modules, so you can imagine that any amount of civilian station is beneath what you see in battle. From there, maybe I find a design for underlying decor modules that doesn't ruin visual clarity, maybe I don't.

Pedantry ahead:
...
Scientifically sound analyses and convoluted technobabble justifications only please!

Haha, well I think your two requests might be at odds and I won't endeavor to fulfill them, but it sounds like you might enjoy the site Atomic Rockets (http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/) which covers hard-scifi concepts comprehensively. Or to put it another way, it's like the TV Tropes of hard science ficiton. Enjoy!

It's fascinating to see this stuff under the hood, thanks for sharing!
NP!

Hey David. What do you imagine stations as? Do they primarily handle planet defenses or are they more like a commerce hub, or perhaps a "gateway"?

In my mind all those satellite things orbiting a planet are its defense platforms preventing people coming and going, and shooting at the planet from orbit sort of things. Will there be other more "military" or "civilian" immobile things we have to deal with?

Maybe an military stations where its a box shaped things with lots of hangars and big 360 turning guns?

Are the rotating cylinder stations the extent of stations we will fight?

The orbital junk is just to show that space-faring civilization is getting up to all sorts of business around a planet. (Or it's space-ruins, like the Rust Belt from the Reynolds books!) So there could plausibly be defense platforms in there, or maybe not. Kinda depends on how we end up using these concepts in the game  ;)

As mentioned, defense platforms are possible. Not sure if/how we'd handle them at this point.

I will say that these big round-style stations will be the core of station combat in the Domain; they exist in-game already as a symbol of both economic and military power, so they're going to get lots of meaning infused via participation in tactical combat (and, presumably, the campaign layer goings-on).  .... They also take a bloody long time to draw, so I'm not in a hurry to make like 20 of 'em. More on that in the next blog post!

Since ships (if you want to justify it) don't kill their occupants when they go to Burn speed, they must have some way of nullifying the effects of lethal acceleration. If such technology exists then the comparatively miniscule force of a spinning space station and whatever "negative effects" that causes would be child's play to negate.

Canonically, yeah, some kind of inertial dampening technology must exist for any of this to work on the scale/speed it does. I'll let other people get into details about what that might look like.  :D
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Blothorn on March 06, 2018, 10:42:06 AM
The orbital junk is just to show that space-faring civilization is getting up to all sorts of business around a planet. (Or it's space-ruins, like the Rust Belt from the Reynolds books!) So there could plausibly be defense platforms in there, or maybe not. Kinda depends on how we end up using these concepts in the game  ;)

As mentioned, defense platforms are possible. Not sure if/how we'd handle them at this point.

I will say that these big round-style stations will be the core of station combat in the Domain; they exist in-game already as a symbol of both economic and military power, so they're going to get lots of meaning infused via participation in tactical combat (and, presumably, the campaign layer goings-on).  .... They also take a bloody long time to draw, so I'm not in a hurry to make like 20 of 'em. More on that in the next blog post!

I think defense platforms are fairly limited by the role that mobility/range tradeoffs play in SS--with narrow exceptions, the smallest stationary platform useful in capital-tier combat can plausibly fit ATC and long-range weapons or TSC. The two uses I see for smaller defense platforms would be as a station-substitute for small-scale combat (e.g. a small colony that would surrender if a proper faction sent an occupation fleet but needs protection from raiders until it can either afford a proper station or catches the attention of a proper faction), and missile/launch bay platforms.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Morgan Rue on March 06, 2018, 05:16:58 PM
I think defense platforms are fairly limited by the role that mobility/range tradeoffs play in SS--with narrow exceptions, the smallest stationary platform useful in capital-tier combat can plausibly fit ATC and long-range weapons or TSC. The two uses I see for smaller defense platforms would be as a station-substitute for small-scale combat (e.g. a small colony that would surrender if a proper faction sent an occupation fleet but needs protection from raiders until it can either afford a proper station or catches the attention of a proper faction), and missile/launch bay platforms.
Consider the Mudskipper MKII. I'd say small defense platforms armed with Gauss Cannons or long range beam weapons would be reasonable. Even just something like a Tactical Laser Grid with ITU and Advanced Optics would be a reasonable annoyance to larger fleets if the platform is supporting other ships/stations.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 06, 2018, 06:39:22 PM
Replacing some of the combat objectives (nav buoys, com relays etc) with defense platforms or mini stations would really spice up combat
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Megas on March 08, 2018, 05:29:44 AM
It spices things up only if it happens sparingly.  Otherwise, it is the same ol' that must be dealt with in every endgame fight.  Being able to opt out current objectives with Coordinated Maneuvers 1 and Electronic Warfare 1 is nice.  No tricks, no distractions.  Just wade in and kill.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: kimbertactporo9 on March 08, 2018, 02:38:10 PM
I feel like that really confused cartoon captain on how to beat the station. I then have a solution to said confusion, 30 paragons armed to the teeth
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Linnis on March 08, 2018, 03:09:56 PM
It spices things up only if it happens sparingly.  Otherwise, it is the same ol' that must be dealt with in every endgame fight.  Being able to opt out current objectives with Coordinated Maneuvers 1 and Electronic Warfare 1 is nice.  No tricks, no distractions.  Just wade in and kill.

Agreed, open space battle objectives makes no sense and  is overall an annoyance. Forcing ships to spread out should be done a different way. Been playing with no objectives in the last few playthroughs i experimented and the fights are much more exciting and still has room for orders and tactics. (Stuff like deploying large ships first, ordering fighter and bomber attacks, etc.

Maybe smaller platforms are deployed for defending fleet or station of planets or warp points that give ECM and what not and are destroyable like what intrinsic party said.


Heck maybe we can have an mobile battle station in fleet mechanic far far in the future, maybe even in mods.



Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Drokkath on March 09, 2018, 04:24:45 AM
Spoiler
(http://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/decor_modules.jpg)
[close]

That brown/rusty station on the left. I like it a lot. I still don't know exactly why I like clunkers in general but I have especially soft spot for ships that look like clunkers and use low-tech red shields instead of anything high-tech for some reason.

Guess all I can say for now as far as upcoming stations go, is that most of me wants to have a clunker-station as an "abandoned" personal vault. It's low-profile enough to hide anything high-tech deep inside from prying eyes.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: PyroFuzz on March 11, 2018, 08:55:31 AM
Battle stations that release frigates when?
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Dostya on March 11, 2018, 11:00:00 PM
I'm not particularly a fan of having stations in civilized space fighting alone. I understood it with the {REDACTED}, as they could easily be having cognitive issues due to age and isolation and whatnot, but the major factions having a station fight solo makes me twitch a bit. Not only because the obvious response to a solo station is long range (I mean strategic map scale) KEW. The point of having a strongpoint like that would be a safe place for a garrison and system patrol force to retreat to, to vent, to repair, to resupply. I'd expect that someone picking a fight with the home base would have a number of ships to face down who were simply around the station. The ships resupplying, refueling, taking on ammunition (obvious place for D-hull ships from battle damage, perhaps they have half ammo, lower starting CR, whatever) would probably have crews that'd object to their home getting blown up and looted to the bulkheads. In addition to any dedicated ships, of course.

This would naturally complicate the fight, but in a good way. The station's obviously a fountain of hurt, and the fleet can pounce on any weakness shown in taking on the station. Having a fleet coordinate with the station would probably not be too hard from the back end; place hidden AI escort markers on station modules (light/medium/heavy depending on value/vulnerability), and have the escorts prioritize ships attacking those modules. Though obviously having the ships hang out too near their escorted module runs the risk of them accidentally meatshielding for the enemy. A higher level station could also have a bigger garrison, allowing there to be something of a normal fleet battle in addition to the station playing 500 pound gorilla in the middle.

This has two benefits - first, that you can relax a bit on making the station capable of credibly solo-fighting an entire fleet while being, well, stationary. Second, no need to make new remote defense platforms since you've already got them - the ships.

Just my two cents, lobbed in from left field. I look forward to seeing how it all shakes out.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Linnis on March 12, 2018, 04:22:36 PM
Yeah I do agree. Also it would seem that having the stations have insane fighter capabilities like no replacement penalties also makes sense as something to prevent it from being this lone entity in the field.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 12, 2018, 07:22:10 PM
I believe that if any enemy fleets are near the station, they can join the battle, but I could be wrong. If not, that would be an easy fix using existing game mechanics I think.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Alex on March 12, 2018, 07:27:47 PM
I believe that if any enemy fleets are near the station, they can join the battle, but I could be wrong.

(Right, that's the plan. A station's role is indeed to control the orbit and provide protection to friendly fleets nearby, as well as to the planet itself.)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 12, 2018, 08:32:07 PM
Another question, are all stations going to be like the current remnant stations, rare big late game boss battles, or are there going to be smaller stations as well.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 13, 2018, 09:39:09 AM
Spoiler
(http://fractalsoftworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/decor_modules.jpg)
[close]

That brown/rusty station on the left. I like it a lot. I still don't know exactly why I like clunkers in general but I have especially soft spot for ships that look like clunkers and use low-tech red shields instead of anything high-tech for some reason.

I'm going to go ahead an acknowledge my inspiration here:
(https://i.imgur.com/IAnk7be.jpg)

Another question, are all stations going to be like the current [REDACTED] stations, rare big late game boss battles, or are there going to be smaller stations as well.

Small stations will be rather easier. Larger stations will probably be in a similar power-range maybe? We're still adjusting everything so it's now set in stone right now.

Battle stations that release frigates when?

See, if we did that, it'd be like okay, but how about destroyers?

(... That said, we may have just done something not so unlike what you're saying there, though I'll say no more on that for now.)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: arcibalde on March 13, 2018, 10:08:01 AM
So, David, how about second part of that blog post, is it done yet?  :D
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: Wyvern on March 13, 2018, 10:15:25 AM
Battle stations that release frigates when?

See, if we did that, it'd be like okay, but how about destroyers?
...And now I'm imagining a battlestation that's just three Onslaughts mounted as turrets, and if you manage to blow up the core station before destroying all three, the survivors come loose, fire up their engines, and come after you as regular ships...
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: David on March 13, 2018, 10:35:34 AM
So, David, how about second part of that blog post, is it done yet?  :D

(Working on it right now!)
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: xenoargh on March 13, 2018, 11:19:06 AM
Gotta say, anything referencing Sid’s work on Blade Runner gets a big thumb’s-up over here :)

Seriously, I cannot wait to blow these things up, defend them, etc.

One crazy idea, though; why not make these battles multi-stage?  Like:

Stage one:  engage defense fleet.

Stage two:  penetrate minefield under fighter attack.

Stage three:  fight station, remaining defense fleet elements, etc.

It’d give battles more drama and eat CR clock without being just endless-seeming waves.
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: c plus one on March 13, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
One crazy idea, though; why not make these battles multi-stage?  Like:

Stage one:  engage defense fleet.

Stage two:  penetrate minefield under fighter attack.

Stage three:  fight station, remaining defense fleet elements, etc.

It’d give battles more drama and eat CR clock without being just endless-seeming waves.

Not crazy at all. Instead, I say "YES PLEASE".

This would add a highly-relevant flavour of spice to the tactical stew. I would welcome the necessity of fighting consecutive, classic "approach battles" on the way to getting to knife-duelling range of the battlestation itself. Fighting against fixed immobile fortifications should be significantly different from Starsector's basic ship-vs-ship combat in thought-provoking ways that go beyond our expectations.

Just one concrete example of such, among many others:
Temporary blocking terrain - in the form of a few hulks of previously-destroyed attacker ships - would be a minor navigational hazard for the player's attacking ships while also providing some short-term cover against sniper fire coming from the battlestation. I would like to have to metaphorically thread the eye of the needle on my way to a VERY carefully-executed maybe-victory.

A look towards another example:
<a new hope>
(Attacking ships involuntarily bucking, yawing & losing some speed as they close in on the battlestation)
"We're passing through their interdiction magnetic field; hold tight!"
</a new hope>
 ;)

Currently holding additional suggestions in reserve...
Title: Re: Zen and the Art of Battlestation Construction
Post by: xenoargh on March 13, 2018, 02:57:46 PM
Agreed.  I like a three-battle system, because then it creates some tension and buildup; taking on a Station ought to feel fundamentally different than fighting a fleet; it's a strategic-level target, after all, and destroying it is a major event, even if it's a low-end Pirate Station (man, I can't wait until hidden Pirate bases are actually a thing). 

None of it needs to be utterly novel or involve major new code, either; probably most of this can use things that are already built and minimal new content; I don't think this will wreck Alex's current timetable and it'd add a lot of flavor to that part of the game.