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Starsector => General Discussion => Topic started by: Null Ganymede on January 30, 2018, 11:19:57 PM

Title: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Null Ganymede on January 30, 2018, 11:19:57 PM
Starsector combat requires logistics support. Running low on supplies and mass is unforgiving when you're still learning the game.

This guide shows you one way to bootstrap a viable, sustainable combat character that doesn't rely on slurping down supplies and fuel at every market.

Step 1: The Mercenary Life

Hit e, 1, w and select "Bounties" on the left. You're looking for system-wide bounties from factions that don't hate you.

(https://i.imgur.com/5btMeUO.png)

Everyone hates pirates so they'll be your primary target. (And Corvus starts with one, what a coincidence!) The bounty could be for anything though - you'll get paid for any hostile ships you destroy in the area.

Getting a commission with a faction is a fairly permanent choice, but doubles your payments if you know where you're going to end up. Being hostile to their enemies won't be a problem for long.

Step 2: Fleet Efficiency

See the supply cost of whatever fleet you're engaging? Your goal is to spend less supplies killing it than it's carrying.

You need a bunch of force multipliers to do that. Fortunately there's plenty to be had:


Step 3: Skill Selection

You'll level quickly. The following is a rough guide to possible skills to focus on, though they're optional and there are many other variations:

(https://i.imgur.com/02ACjPV.png)

Combat skills should be your first investment. You can boost your fleet later as it starts to grow. Since your main supply drain will be combat, logistics and industry skills aren't important unless your fleet is spending lots of supplies repairing armor damage.

Your exact skill choices will be dictated by what hull mods and hulls you stumble across. An early Integrated Targeting Unit or Converted Hangar will drive fleet composition and loadout in different directions.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: xenoargh on January 31, 2018, 07:42:35 AM
Hey, great initiative!  We need a good new-player guide again :)

I'd like to chime in and say something that should be obvious, but isn't:

1.  New players should start on Easy, unless they really want to be challenged.  Really.  The game's mechanics are difficult-enough.

2.  New players should always start with the Tutorial.  Really.  Besides doing some hand-holding and explaining basic mechanics, by the end of the Tutorial, players will have a Hammerhead with reasonable weapons, a Condor, and sometimes they'll be able to salvage a Venture, if they fight all the Pirate fleets in-system.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Goumindong on January 31, 2018, 01:57:02 PM
I really disagree with this. Combat skills, while nice early become a huge trap. The issue with learning to kill early pirate fleets is much more based on composition and size rather than character skills.

And the two best skills with regards to achieving that have nothing to do with the combat tree at all. And the best hull mod either.

The answer are the "Insulated Engine Assembly", Sensors(2), Navigation(1), and Safety Procedures(3).

The reason for this is because the primary problem with early combat costs are

1) Being seen by a fleet that is too large for you do deal with

2) Being unable to catch fleets that are smaller than you

Insulated Engine Assembly halves your sensor profile. Sensors (2) reduces your profile by 25% or 62.5% when "going dark". The combination of all three mean that your regular profile is 62.5% lower than normal and your "Going dark" profile is 81.25% lower. This essentially makes you invisible outside of enemy sensor range. This lets you more easily find, determine whether or not you can kill or its worth killing, targets, and also avoid those you don't want to fight while spending as little time as possible doing it

On top of this Safety Protocols 3 makes you easily able to catch targets, not because of D mods but because it makes emergency burn free. If you get to the edge of sensor range with "going dark" and then e-burn at an enemy you're almost guaranteed to catch them. The problem with doing this is that the supply cost for doing so is hellacious. A large reduction for every ship in your fleet. But without that cost you can freely e-burn, and catch, whatever you want.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on January 31, 2018, 07:21:42 PM
The strongest combat skills are in Leadership (Officer Management and carrier skills) and Technology (Gunnery Implants 3, Power Grid Modulation 2+, Electronic Warfare 1, and Loadout Design 3).  The only game changer Combat skill is Helmsmanship 3, and that is to enable carriers to kite at zero-flux speed while fighters are engaged (because engaged fighters add flux to carrier like shields do and prevent zero-flux speed without the perk).

Putting all skills into Combat only is not much stronger than an unskilled character.  All Combat skills might let your ship punch above its weight by one class, but it cannot solo fleets like in the old days... unless it is a carrier, but you need to cherry pick skills from three aptitudes for that.

In 0.8.x, it is more efficient to boost your fleet than your flagship, unless your flagship is a dedicated carrier built to work alone.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: xenoargh on January 31, 2018, 08:30:36 PM
I agree; you don't want Combat at all until you've gotten the important biggies out of Tech.  Combat doesn't lift the player high enough above to be properly heroic, either; it's a path to stagnation.

I guess I know what my next little project will be... finishing my work on Skill rebalance...
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: AxleMC131 on January 31, 2018, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: xenoargh on January 31, 2018, 07:42:35 AM
Hey, great initiative!  We need a good new-player guide again :)

Uhh.  ???

Guys?

Guys?

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=13115.0

 ;D
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Thaago on January 31, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
This is a good guide, thanks for writing it!

[quotes]

I strongly disagree with all three of you: for a beginner there is nothing more important than a moderate investment in combat skills (ie 1 rank in several of the defensive ones) for making it through the difficult early game. An early game ship with skills is 2-3 times more powerful than one without, and the early game is what kills new players: maxing out on endgame power is nice but completely irrelevant because any skill build, or no skills at all, can beat everything. Really the only part of the game that is challenging and might trip up a new player is the early game, and combat makes that a breeze.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Null Ganymede on January 31, 2018, 09:09:27 PM
Quote from: xenoargh on January 31, 2018, 08:30:36 PM
Combat doesn't lift the player high enough above to be properly heroic, either; it's a path to stagnation.

False.

There are many paths to heroism. A carrier flagship is great at projecting control over the entire battle, especially with an operations center fitted. Goumindong's stealth-focused build is a terror on the strategic campaign map, especially when outnumbered in enemy territory. Dipping into industry helps a ragtag fleet of damaged ships hit above their weight.

Combat skills on the flagship are there to move the tipping point in local engagements that fit into a single screen. They make a difference between:

- target exploding / target retreating under allied cover to vent flux
- dangerous ship getting flux locked and focused down by allies / it winning the flux war and scaring allies away
- having the mobility to use your current target to block its allies from shooting you / getting swarmed and focused down

By repeatedly winning the local engagements, you can reduce the enemy fleet down ship by ship. Investment in offensive skills speeds up the process, while defensive skills help you sustain it under fighter or supporting fire.

Which path works best for you depends on the type of gameplay you'd like to focus on. Combat skills are great for things that don't run away, like Nexerelin sieges and bounties in relatively safe space.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: AxleMC131 on January 31, 2018, 09:56:02 PM
For the record, Combat skills are fine. The thing to remember is that if you, say, sacrifice fleet-wide skills for flagship-specific skills then yes, you as a player ship will be killing more and dying less... But your buddy support ships won't be. It's a trade-up the thoroughly depends on how you fight.

For a beginner player at the stage of learning the basics of ship control and loadout design, I will conceded that the player-specific combat skills are a simpler and arguably more potent investment. However, once they have a better grasp of combat and are able to focus more on fleet design as a whole, fleetwide skills are probably far more worthwhile.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Goumindong on January 31, 2018, 11:36:27 PM
Quote from: Thaago on January 31, 2018, 09:02:40 PM
This is a good guide, thanks for writing it!

[quotes]

I strongly disagree with all three of you: for a beginner there is nothing more important than a moderate investment in combat skills (ie 1 rank in several of the defensive ones) for making it through the difficult early game. An early game ship with skills is 2-3 times more powerful than one without, and the early game is what kills new players: maxing out on endgame power is nice but completely irrelevant because any skill build, or no skills at all, can beat everything. Really the only part of the game that is challenging and might trip up a new player is the early game, and combat makes that a breeze.

Not really no. The problem with the early game is understanding ships and weapons. A few skills aren’t going to turn the starting wolf into a murder machine... but a tactical laser will and some better weapon grouping will. The problem isn’t that most newbies don’t have a strong enough ship. It’s that they don’t understand what makes a ship strong.

The aforementioned wolf without the tactical laser cannot keep an enemies shields up. This means it must either trade better(which it cannot always do) or perform risky phase jumps (which are risky). But the wolf with the tac laser can keep enemies shields up when it’s cooling down it’s flux, and then reengage with a hard flux advantage.

Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Thaago on February 01, 2018, 12:07:15 AM
I mean thats one way to do it, but certainly not the only way.

...

I'd take a single point in a single combat skill over a tac laser on a wolf in the early game, tbh. A few skills does vastly increase the ability of a Wolf to combat early threats, without any need of in depth understanding. A pulse laser will kill pirates no problem.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Goumindong on February 01, 2018, 01:38:17 AM
Quote from: Thaago on February 01, 2018, 12:07:15 AM
I mean thats one way to do it, but certainly not the only way.

...

I'd take a single point in a single combat skill over a tac laser on a wolf in the early game, tbh. A few skills does vastly increase the ability of a Wolf to combat early threats, without any need of in depth understanding. A pulse laser will kill pirates no problem.

The tac laser is small. It replaces the front mounted ion cannon not the pulse laser. The purpose is so that when you, or they, “bounce” and move to a position where they can potentially vent flux the tac laser keeps their shields up. This lets you vent your hard flux by taking your shields down while preventing them from venting theirs.

Without the tac laser you have to hope that the enemy cannot kite you with any ship that has a shield (or you have to go risky phase jumps) because when they or you get out of pulse laser range they will vent their hard flux and you’re back to square one.

A few skills aren’t going to make the starting wolf kill destroyers easily.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Sy on February 01, 2018, 05:19:54 AM
i think this looks good. yes, it is hard to say which skill/playstyle path is the best for newbie bounty hunter, but even if some disagree with combat being the way to go, this at least gives some guidance for people who are initially too overwhelmed by everything there is to learn and remember in the game to figure out their own set of skills. and i think combat is at least decent for this playstyle.

and yeah, we already have one basic newbie guide now, by Helmut. but that one is more general advice rather than a guide on how to do a specific playstyle, so i think this one could still be useful as well. :] both guides are relatively short anyway, so it shouldn't take much effort to read through both of them.


sidenote @Null Ganymede: your skill image shows only 2 points put into Gunnery Implants, but rank 3 is the one that grants increased weapon range. rank 1 and 2 are good as well, but the skill really should be maxed if the player already has 3 points in Technology.
oh, and, welcome to the forum! ^^


Quote from: xenoargh on January 31, 2018, 07:42:35 AM
I'd like to chime in and say something that should be obvious, but isn't:

1.  New players should start on Easy, unless they really want to be challenged.  Really.  The game's mechanics are difficult-enough.

2.  New players should always start with the Tutorial.  Really.  Besides doing some hand-holding and explaining basic mechanics, by the end of the Tutorial, players will have a Hammerhead with reasonable weapons, a Condor, and sometimes they'll be able to salvage a Venture, if they fight all the Pirate fleets in-system.
agreed, on both points.

too many new players underestimate the early game challenge, or believe they'll just pick up the various gameplay mechanics as they go rather than doing (and paying attention to) the tutorials.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on February 01, 2018, 05:28:56 AM
Quote from: Null Ganymede on January 31, 2018, 09:09:27 PM
Combat skills on the flagship are there to move the tipping point in local engagements that fit into a single screen. They make a difference between:
The problem is the AI is just as cowardly and will run from the enemy unless it has an overwhelming advantage.  I tried all Combat builds.  They can duel a bit better than unskilled, but not enough to justify maxing the whole tree or even more than a few skills.  Ships with all Combat still cannot force fights any better than an unskilled character (or mostly unskilled character with Helmsmanship 3 and nothing else).  Combat does not change strategic play enough.  As Xenoargh wrote, Combat does not uplift the player enough (except Helmsmanship 3 on a carrier) to make a difference beyond something minor like allowing a Medusa to solo a cruiser instead of only a destroyer.  (Before 0.8.x, said Medusa could solo fleets.)

What is better is to outsource Combat to officers.  They can get the same skills as your character at much cheaper cost.  Two guys for one of your points, vs three points on something like Combat Endurance 3, and you do not have enough points for everything?  The choice is a no brainer - Officer Management.  Better to have four or more guys punching about their weight instead of only you.

Defensive Systems is one of the better Combat skills, especially if player wants Hardened Shields but cannot buy it due to not having Tri-Tachyon commission.  However, it is one of those skills I probably would skip if I do not have enough points to spare.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Null Ganymede on February 01, 2018, 06:06:59 AM
Aggressive officers and range advantage via electronic warfare help the AI get stuck in. You definitely don't want to over-commit to the combat tree at the cost of key green/blue skills.

The player's one advantage over officers is (hopefully) situational awareness and (sometimes) good decision making. You can make decisions on which flank to reinforce or which targets to prioritize, then execute them far better than officers will via orders.

Gunnery Implants 2 gives a significant accuracy bonus to projectiles, which is effectively a damage bonus. It fits the theme of damage over utility, although 3 is usually worth it.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on February 01, 2018, 06:32:39 AM
Quote from: Null Ganymede on February 01, 2018, 06:06:59 AM
Aggressive officers and range advantage via electronic warfare help the AI get stuck in. You definitely don't want to over-commit to the combat tree at the cost of key green/blue skills.

The player's one advantage over officers is (hopefully) situational awareness and (sometimes) good decision making. You can make decisions on which flank to reinforce or which targets to prioritize, then execute them far better than officers will via orders.

Gunnery Implants 2 gives a significant accuracy bonus to projectiles, which is effectively a damage bonus. It fits the theme of damage over utility, although 3 is usually worth it.
AI is aware of range.  If they do not want to engage, and your ship is not fast enough and does not have fighters to chase them down, then there will not be a fight until one side loses CR and gets engine failure.  Paragon has the best range, but frigates know better than to engage until it can swarm the Paragon by the dozens and kill it fast.  Range is important though, enough so that the enemy does not outrange and can kite-and-snipe at you.  More annoyingly and more common is when your smaller ship is barely faster than the enemy, but the enemy keeps kiting until it can be backed up by an ally and you cannot fight them both... or if you miscalculate your flux usage and then it charges in to overload you, and you have trouble getting out.

Combat aptitude does nothing for range, only Technology (and Leadership via Officer Management) does.

Player does not need skills for "(hopefully) situational awareness and (sometimes) good decision making".  If player needs a fleet to fight effectively, better to have a whole fleet (sans you) that punch above their weight instead of only you.  Officers can take all of the combat skills you can, but they cannot take the fleetwide or QoL skills you can.  Combined with mostly weak Combat skills, player is most effective as a (passive) buffer or force multiplier, like a bard or cleric class, by taking the fleetwide skills.

Gunnery Implants 3 is gold, unless you are married to a carrier.  +15% to shot range is extremely powerful.  If player wants to use Unstable Injector on a non-carrier, Gunnery Implants 3 is really needed.

Combat skills seem to be designed for officers.  Most of the Combat skills provide insignificant bonuses to your ship.  To make things worse, some of the really good perks are gated behind junk perks, and others are duplicated by Leadership except they affect the whole fleet instead of only one ship (or in case of Officer Management, you get two more officers for one point).  Those little bonuses can add up into something nice, but only if the player puts everything into Combat and gives up everything else.

The Combat skills I tend to get are Combat Endurance 1, because AI are cowards that LOVE to turtle and run down the clock.  Combat Endurance 1 is great for extending the clock, especially on frigates.  And Helmsmanship 3, because that is a game-changer on any flagship with fighters, either a dedicated carrier relying on fighters to kill everyone or a gunship that uses Converted Hangar for interceptors because the fighters are effectively better regenerating missiles than Salamanders or Pilums.

P.S.  Electronic Warfare is important, but mostly to offset the enemy's Electronic Warfare if they have it too, which happens more late in the game when player fights things bigger than pirates.  For that purpose, one point is enough.  The reason is the enemy fleet will probably be as big as yours and the net ECM rating will be near zero, and that changes when one side starts losing (ships).  By the time the bonus gets big enough to warrant more than the one point in Electronic Warfare, the battle is basically decided.  On the other hand, if player does not have EW 1, but the enemy has EW, -10% or especially -20% shot range for your whole fleet really hurts.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Thaago on February 01, 2018, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Goumindong on February 01, 2018, 01:38:17 AM
...
A few skills aren’t going to make the starting wolf kill destroyers easily.

Spoiler as off topic:
Spoiler
Erm, yes, they do. The starting wolf without skills should take down any pirate destroyer just fine. With skills it can take down a well equipped destroyer with a bit of time (though for something with heavy shields like a Medusa you do need to use those 'risky' jumps and take advantage of weaknesses).

This is not counting missiles, because a nice simple sabot + reaper + expanded racks autodeletes two destroyers or one cruiser (choosing burst damage over sustainability of course, which might be a good decision or a bad one depending on enemy fleet comp.). Not that you really need skills for that either, but it does make it easier.

I feel like people are so hung up about what combat skills could do in past versions that they are undervaluing how powerful having your flagship be 2-3 times more powerful is. Megas complains about the AI being cowards, but if you use combat + a faster flagship (Aurora, Eagle, Harbinger, Conquest, etc), you can run down and kill anything other than lone skirmisher frigates like hounds or a Paragon, which you might need some support for.
[close]

I'm not claiming that 'endgame max power' is a combat build, because its not, but its definitely not a trap. And for a new player, which this guide is for, the powerful defensive bonuses will keep their ship alive as they figure out how to fly, manage flux, etc.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Null Ganymede on February 01, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Exactly. Getting through the first part of the learning curve is hard, combat skills help a ton.

Megas, frigates maintaining contact with a Paragon aren't cowardly. Waiting until they have numbers and positioning to kill it via swarming is smart. Why the hell are you using a Paragon to engage frigates?

I don't fully understand electronic warfare's effect, but range advantage seems to make a huge difference in AI confidence. The same battle re-played with and without ECM mods changes drastically.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on February 02, 2018, 05:27:43 AM
Quote from: Null Ganymede on February 01, 2018, 10:37:42 PM
Megas, frigates maintaining contact with a Paragon aren't cowardly. Waiting until they have numbers and positioning to kill it via swarming is smart. Why the hell are you using a Paragon to engage frigates?
Because when smart tactics become annoying, like waiting as long as it takes to win becoming the most optimal strategy, the game becomes either not fun or a drag.  For example, in one of the 0.7.x versions, enemies could have Timid officers.  They refused to engage your flagship, but they wanted your objective so badly that they hovered back-and-forth daring you to lose patience and leave your objective (or you deploy more of your ships so you waste more of your CR/supplies and the enemy deploys more to maintain their numbers advantage and your AI allies were not as smart as you).  Since player flagships were so powerful back then, the optimal strategy was to wait until the enemy ran out of CR then got engine failure and could not move anymore.  Such battles take about an hour to finish.  Enemies no longer have Timid AI, but the new 0.8.x AI has partially brought that annoyance back for everyone.  Similarly, people disliked fighting phase ships, so now their cloak shifts time so that even if phase ships are untouchable, they run out of CR soon enough, in theory.

If the AI does not want to fight, it should retreat off the map, not play keep away coward and stay in battle.

As for Paragon, if I send it against a fleet, it would destroy destroyers and up without much problem, but then the frigates will play keep away until they can swarm.

Paragon is not the only ship frigates can play keep away.  They can play keep away against everything, except other frigates (which risk getting killed themselves) or carriers (since most fighters are faster than everything else).

The easiest way to counter that nonsense is to saturate the map with fighters.  Unfortunately, your AI carriers tell their fighters to escort your flagship instead of at enemies to kill, so I cannot pilot a backline unit (like Astral with five Warthogs and a Claw) or have the entire fleet full of carriers.  I either need to have tanks in the fleet or solo the enemy fleet with Drover/Heron/Astral.

If I add mods, stuff the Templars' Paladin or Archbishop utterly destroys frigate swarms, courtesy of Priwen Burst.

P.S.  The point of bringing up Paragon is it can have more shot range than everything else that is playable, and all the range in the world is useless if the enemy simply refuses to engage.  When the enemy engages, then range is great - hit them before they can hit you.  But if they do not, then range is not so great.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Goumindong on February 02, 2018, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: Thaago on February 01, 2018, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Goumindong on February 01, 2018, 01:38:17 AM
...
A few skills aren’t going to make the starting wolf kill destroyers easily.


Erm, yes, they do. The starting wolf without skills should take down any pirate destroyer just fine. With skills it can take down a well equipped destroyer with a bit of time (though for something with heavy shields like a Medusa you do need to use those 'risky' jumps and take advantage of weaknesses).

Not that you really need skills for that either


The starting wolf does not do well against even pirate destroyers (except Buffalo's) unless you have allies and so can get behind them. Plus, you know.. the bolded
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Grimm on February 06, 2018, 08:55:08 PM
Great Guide, its helped me easily advance in the combat aspects.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Thaago on February 07, 2018, 11:20:51 AM
Off topic so spoiler:
Spoiler
Quote from: Goumindong on February 02, 2018, 09:30:19 AM
Quote from: Thaago on February 01, 2018, 05:25:36 PM
Quote from: Goumindong on February 01, 2018, 01:38:17 AM
...
A few skills aren’t going to make the starting wolf kill destroyers easily.


Erm, yes, they do. The starting wolf without skills should take down any pirate destroyer just fine. With skills it can take down a well equipped destroyer with a bit of time (though for something with heavy shields like a Medusa you do need to use those 'risky' jumps and take advantage of weaknesses).

Not that you really need skills for that either


The starting wolf does not do well against even pirate destroyers (except Buffalo's) unless you have allies and so can get behind them. Plus, you know.. the bolded

I do not appreciate how you've twisted my words by not giving a full quotation. This is what I actually said:

Quote
Erm, yes, they do. The starting wolf without skills should take down any pirate destroyer just fine. With skills it can take down a well equipped destroyer with a bit of time (though for something with heavy shields like a Medusa you do need to use those 'risky' jumps and take advantage of weaknesses).

This is not counting missiles, because a nice simple sabot + reaper + expanded racks autodeletes two destroyers or one cruiser (choosing burst damage over sustainability of course, which might be a good decision or a bad one depending on enemy fleet comp.). Not that you really need skills for that either, but it does make it easier.
...

Saying you don't need skills for it was specifically about the sabot + reaper + expanded racks combo, and I even pointed out that having skills makes it easier. It actually makes it a lot easier.

To your point: you are wrong. A default loadout Wolf with no skills can take down pirate destroyers, and one with skills can take down fully equipped destroyers. (This is even leaving blast doors on and basically wasting 5 OP.)

I just did tests in the simulator against the pirate Hammerhead, and while I needed to use about 3 harpoons, it didn't need any fancy maneuvers. Considering that real combat is always easier than 1v1 for a maneuverable ship like the Wolf, I think its just fine.

I used the same loadout and put my skilled character in (still a 55OP loadout + blast doors, so basically 50). With those skills I killed the Non-pirate Hammerhead using 2 Harpoons, taking only light armor damage. Thats one of the toughest destroyers, having railguns, ITU, Expanded missile racks, and a really powerful offensive ship system. If I was more patient I wouldn't have needed the missiles. The star of the show was the Impact Mitigation (didn't even have 3, so just 1 and 2) Evasive Action, Advanced Countermeasures combo that let me tank the railguns on the armor when I couldn't dodge them (which skills also help) and only take tiny amounts of damage (2 points per shot to start). An unskilled Wolf cannot tank railguns for more than a few shots without losing its armor and dying.

I killed a Medusa using 1 Harpoon (I did need that to force its shields to stay up while I vented, it wasn't just impatience) again with only light armor damage, though that one is tricky as it can really jump and kill you fast in the start of the engagement if you screw up because Pulse Lasers are energy rather than kinetic damage and their damage to armor is only cut by 40% by skills instead of more.
[close]
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: FreedomFighter on February 09, 2018, 09:23:36 AM
Wolf is versatile with it's weapon slots. It has a bit of everything, it just suffer a bit from low Flux but Flux management shouldn't be problem unless you overextend it's medium slot. Heck, if you're savy enough, Wolf could blink behind most of frontal shield destroyer then Reaper it. If that isn't kill shot, it will leave them seriously wound with flameout.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Shuka on June 06, 2018, 10:09:58 AM
Megas you mention cowardly a lot, and with all due respect you're not respecting your opponent.

George Washington ran from fights constantly. Russia spent the first half of WW2 retreating. Viet Cong never engaged in open combat. These forces and many more throughout history were labeled cowards, and not respected by their much stronger contemporaries.

But they won
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on June 06, 2018, 04:23:36 PM
@ Shuka:  Remember that Starsector is supposed to be a game, not a real-life simulation.  Some things that are acceptable or at least justified in real-life have no business in a game because they are aggravating, not merely unfun.

I do not like excessively cowardly enemies because fights tend to drag on unnecessarily unless I have the ships I need to counter it (which there are not many), which usually involves lots of carriers and fighter spam.  Resources ill-suited to the metagame are effectively dead-weight.

P.S.  The opponent in Starsector is your computer, not a human being.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Igncom1 on June 06, 2018, 06:01:18 PM
Not to mention if your AI ships pin an enemy AI ship against the end of the map and simply won't close to engage, ever, due to being at the edge of the map where they aren't supposed to be.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Goumindong on June 06, 2018, 06:45:48 PM
I once had an enemy ship retreat off the side of the map because it kept running away from me and went outside the mission zone too far.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Shuka on June 11, 2018, 09:50:16 AM
It's a game about combat, and competitive combat rewards conserving resources and not over extending them in situations that would leave your objectives vulnerable.

The behaviour is intelligent on the part of your opponent. This is frustrating, and instead of using your resources to counter it, you use derogatory words to describe it.

I enjoy finding ways to accomplish my goals, and I do not need the goalposts constantly moved because I haven't found the solution yet.

I've noticed quite frequently high flux ships cycling behind their comrades, covering for each other. If the enemy is getting smashed they will retreat, and try to reset the battle, possibly with nearby reinforcements. This is challenging behaviour, and rewarding when I overcome a difficult opponent.
Title: Re: Combat beginner guide
Post by: Megas on June 11, 2018, 01:52:42 PM
@ Shuka:  (If you were referring to me...) What makes you think I do not use resources to counter obnoxious tactics?

Just because it can countered does not necessarily make obnoxious AI less so, especially if it dominates gameplay to the point that ships with the solution are always optimal, or if the best solution itself is obnoxious, like waiting twenty minutes for a ship to run out of CR (or in early versions, wait until Onslaught or other low-tech ship ran out of ammo).

This is part of the reason why Apogee stinks in 0.8.  It does not have the tools to fight against the 0.8 era AI effectively.  If 0.8 era Apogee was thrust into 0.7 era combat, it probably would do better because the enemy AI is more aggressive (perhaps more so than so-called reckless AI.  If Remnants are reckless, why do they act like Spathi when Wolf and Medusa try to fight them?)

If the solution is not fun, like say... waiting twenty minutes for the enemy to run out of CR first, that is not good.  Phase ships had their cloaks gain time shift mostly because AI dragged out fights with them.  Similarly, AI could have Timid officers in early 0.7, but not anymore because the optimal tactic to beat them was to wait and outlast them with more peak performance.  During the time with Timid officers, I could tab out, continue development with other computer work, go to the bathroom, or eat a meal, come back, and the Timid AI is still doing its dance while the clock ticks down.

If Remnants were playable, they would be overpowered because they have more peak performance than most ships of equal size, and they win if they can turtle up until enemy runs out of CR first.

Think about Mora.  Personally, I did not have a problem with it having 66% damage absorption from Damper Field.  (Heron hiding behind others and kiting with HVD was a more annoying opponent than said Mora to me.)  But enough people complained it tanked too much damage before dying, and it (along with Brawler and Centurion) eventually got 50% absorption.

Is turtling and camping fun?  Not unless the goal is to grief another human opponent.

P.S.  I have no problem expressing displeasure with gameplay that is not fun, especially if it was more fun in a previous version.