Versant Beginning i would love
Is the Scarab start next? ;D
Versant Beginning i would love
How did you decide to put a Tempest as one of the starting options?
With the temporary removal of trading as a viable profession, I really don't think the player should have the option to start with a Cerberus – or any unshielded ship – as their primary vessel. It's just a noob trap.
Really cool and simple mod, new choices help to really freshen up the early game.
On the whole I'm trying to create a selection of ships that (unlike in the previous version of Starsector) are all mutually agreeable. There should be no option that the player sees as better than all the others, and similarly no option that the player would never pick. The point is to make your early-game scenario more varied without making it easier or harder in a huge way.
Tempest is just too good (and expensive!) to pick anything else as primary.
Maybe it should come with downsides, like some combination of: no secondary ship/less starting credits/lowered rep with some factions/D-mods on it?
How about a start with an Enforcer D plus Buffalo Mk2. or something like that?
How about a start with an Enforcer D plus Buffalo Mk2. or something like that?Very much this.
I'd rather limit the player just to frigates for now. The engagement curve can be fairly steep if you start the player with Destroyers - this is both my opinion and a perspective shared by several other users in various posts/discord chats/etc.This is something I have never experienced when using previous mods which allowed you to start with a destroyer.
Tempest is just too good (and expensive!) to pick anything else as primary.i like the idea of giving the Tempest option a d-mod or two, something that takes away some of its speed and/or flux stats. even if it's more expensive to field already, Tempest is just too good in comparison to the other ships on offer unless there are some serious drawbacks.
Maybe it should come with downsides, like some combination of: no secondary ship/less starting credits/lowered rep with some factions/D-mods on it?
... The engagement curve can be fairly steep if you start the player with Destroyers ...This is something I have never experienced when using previous mods which allowed you to start with a destroyer.
On the whole it made the early game far easier by; giving you a greater ability to fight while allowing for more "mistakes", gives you a far greater flexibility for loadouts, and it just flat removes the requirement to play a twitch shooter for those that don't like that kind of game.
Given the choice I would pick a destroyer start (any destroyer) just to avoid having to fly a frigate, which I dislike immensely.
I really like what you did here. It may do remind me a little bit of Nexerelin start options but only because it was a first mod to offer something like this when SS itself wasn't giving us any options there really. Now it does, but they're limited - which is exactly what you have remedied. I do really like the options, starting with cerberus + dram was pretty unorthodox for me but was a nice change.
If I was to suggest something though, I would highlight the lasher for newer players, perhaps throw in some more cash along it etc. But that's the only thing I could think of.
To be fair the start ship choice is made within the tutorial's sytem salvage field. And since you have access to these ships wether you do the tutorial or not I'm not that concerned with the limited choice.
i like the idea of giving the Tempest option a d-mod or two, something that takes away some of its speed and/or flux stats. even if it's more expensive to field already, Tempest is just too good in comparison to the other ships on offer unless there are some serious drawbacks.
To be fair the start ship choice is made within the tutorial's sytem salvage field. And since you have access to these ships wether you do the tutorial or not I'm not that concerned with the limited choice.
Hmm, good point. I suppose my biggest fear is that I'll give the player a ship option that allows them to fly through the tutorial without finding it challenging and/or fun at all. If the player chooses to play the tutorial, I'd rather keep it fun for them. But then again, I have weird fundamentals, so I guess other people need to tell me if that's a good idea or not. So far it seems not.
fer to keep things simple if at all possible.
So, interestingly, it seems that perhaps the Tempest isn't the best thing to give the player as an option, yet people want the ability to start with Destroyers. So, here's a question for you:
Do I redo Better Beginning to completely overhaul how the game starts you, and give the player bigger fleet options? There's a couple of ways I would consider doing this:
- The Nexerelin method: Give the player a selection of "fleet types", (single frigate, small convoy, military detatchment, etc.) each with a preset selection of ships, and perhaps a flag that specifies each fleet type as a difficulty level.
- The chain method (stockalike): Expand the number of times the player is given a choice when making their fleet, so the same as the current method but they could choose from different selections to get three or four ships in total.
- The "Bigger first" method: Similar to above, but make the players flagship something a little bigger. This would be the simplest "destroyer start" method.
- The career choices method: Instead of giving the player ship options, return to what was done a long time ago for Starsector where you go through what was effectively a questionaire that built up your past career and life in the sector, then decided on your ship(s) depending on that. At each stage (question) I could the player a ship without announcing it, then at the end show the player what their fleet and situation is. While this method sounds fun on paper, it's also the one that gives the player the least control over their ships, and would work best for a role-play scenario where the player takes what comes.
If anyone has a better idea for a method, please do share. Wink Bear in mind that I'd still prefer to keep things simple if at all possible.
Well, to be honest. A new player is rather not going to install the mod on his first day of playing starsector.
Either of the last 2 honestly. I liked the "career" building but at the same time I would go with the current form for a while (though the one-liners for description before you even hoover your cursor over them are really nice!). So rather "Bigger first"...
but
If we wanna add in destroyers as a choice (and then I guess perhaps lil bigger transports?) - I would cut off the high-tech ships like Tempest namely. As for destroyer's, well we don't have a huge choice but I don't feel like it would be proper to go "tempest route" aka letting start with a Medusa for example. I would keep down to the enforcer or hammerhead (with mule & buffallo for less/non combat paths?*). I would even think that in case of enforcer or hammerhead perhaps they could come in with one d-mod? Though this starts some problems cuz if it's going to be a pres-elected one, some ppl might not like it. If it's going to be random, some people will get the least desirable d-mod... So I don't know.
But for "destroyer tab choice" I would propose; Hammerhead, Enforcer, Mule, Buffalo. Then frigate ship choice and the last support ship choice.
Oh, yeah I just wanted to have it balanced so hence why D-mod thought - perhaps in the future something will still change about them but I guess you're right.
So not complete/best weapons loadout works too I think. It actually made me look, and for example Enforcer have an "outdated" variant & hammerhead have a "tutorial" one - both which could been used as starting options? :P
I think a Hammerhead would be a good starting destroyer. Decently cheap to use, nice shield coverage, hybrid mounts and Ammo Feeder
Also, in what universe starting with an Enforcer D that has a few D mods and a Buffalo MK.2 would be easier than a fricking Tempest!???
It's just an excuse to have a Pirate start that is not a slog in a Hound D plus a Mudskipper MK.2
Are there any frigs that should not be given to the player at the start of the game? Like the Afflictor, for instance.
Are there any frigs that should not be given to the player at the start of the game? Like the Afflictor, for instance.
As far as I want to keep the game starts balanced, definitely. I'm not including any phase-ships (Afflictor and Shade), and also rare ships like the Hyperion and Omen. The Tempest was the limit of what I would consider allowing the player to start with, but even that is pretty damn powerful and may be removed when I get to overhauling this mod.
I hope you'll remove it. Tempest is definitely too strong to be a starter ship. It's also a rarity on the markets so it feels like cheating to have it as starter option.
Well, if to judge rarity by these standards, the galaxy is overflown with Monitors apparently. But I've never ever seen one on the market :P
Well, to be honest. A new player is rather not going to install the mod on his first day of playing starsector.
Ahem, I did. First hour even.
Yeah. I think the problem was that I was judging its rarity by how often I see it in Independent and TT patrols - not that uncommon. But still a lot rarer than a bunch of other ships.it also has the credits cost of a light cruiser!
Ahem, I did. First hour even.welcome to the forum and to the game, then. ^^
Personally I recommend players spend time in vanilla before trying mods. And that goes for every game, not just Starsector. But then again, we can't stop you if you'd rather see what mods have to offer. And I won't lie, Starsector's modding community is exceptional. ;)i agree on all of these points. :]
[...] it certainly isn't overpowered.Is it?
Nexerelin had the Monitor as the own faction/free start solo starting frigate for a while. IIRC it was considered very annoying due to the difficulty involved in killing anything else with such a slow, undergunned ship. (Now it's been replaced with Centurion, which probably isn't an improvement).Well, if to judge rarity by these standards, the galaxy is overflown with Monitors apparently. But I've never ever seen one on the market :P
Hehe, true that. Speaking of, would people be against having the Monitor as a starting option? If only for the collectability - it certainly isn't overpowered.
Is it?spoilers! D:
[...] it certainly isn't overpowered.Is it?
Actually I think it would be a great option. After all, we got the wolf which is (supposed to be rarer btw) an offensive frigate, while Lasher is super universal. Monitor is heavy on a defense, and it's the slowest. There's nothing OP in it really i'd say (codex description is actually suggesting the opposite :P ).
Also I was thinking, since you're adding 'destroyer' category. How you'd feel about letting player to start in condor (with talon's and piranha's)? It's destroyer sized after all, hence the thought. That would fill the last gap giving a full range of starting paths.
[Monitor] certainly isn't overpowered.Is it?Spoilerhttps://youtu.be/nnHg9CZP1QU[close]
Nexerelin had the Monitor as the own faction/free start solo starting frigate for a while. IIRC it was considered very annoying due to the difficulty involved in killing anything else with such a slow, undergunned ship. (Now it's been replaced with Centurion, which probably isn't an improvement).
Monitor work quite well as a wingman option; distract enemies while player ship does the killing.
It's incredibly tempting, but I've often found the Condor to be a rubbish flagship early-game, but the other option (Drover) is maybe a little too powerful for a start. This is something that'll require testing.Nah, don't even think of Drover. It's too strong. Condor is all right carrier start. Yeah, it's not the best but neither is Lasher/Wolf/Monitor a best frigate.
Yeah, I remember that Nex. had the Monitor as a starting ship. A fair-enough custom loadout too, which I'd probably use something similar to here. I agree it's not good on its own, but remember that no matter what I make with Better Beginning I'm never going to start the player with a single ship. Fleet Combat being as important as it is in 0.8, the Monitor might be a good grab for escort.
Nah, don't even think of Drover. It's too strong. Condor is all right carrier start. Yeah, it's not the best but neither is Lasher/Wolf/Monitor a best frigate.
... the Monitor might be a good grab for escort.
Yep, especially if you'll allow to take a destroyer sized 3rd ship to it (though would be nice if you added an option to not take 3rd ship in exchange for cash or something?). Actually monitor & condor sounds like a good combo.
In other words, just because you have to pick a ship of some kind at every stage, doesn't mean you're missing out on other benefits. Don't forget the current version of BB gives you the option to start as a "Successful smuggler", piloting a Cerberus and with a load of extra cash. Everything will (hopefully) tie together.
Honestly I find the Wolf to be too powerful a starting ship. I'd like more options for absolute rust-buckets, even (D) variants, as well as faction alignment options.
(cough cough Hermes (D) cough).(mudskipper mk.II -cough- with destroyed weapon mounts cough)
(cough cough Hermes (D) cough).(mudskipper mk.II -cough- with destroyed weapon mounts cough)
(cough cough Hermes (D) cough).(mudskipper mk.II -cough- with destroyed weapon mounts cough)
XD Jeez, if you could even get one of those... And it'd probably still be better than a Hermes (D) because the Mudskipper MkII retains the full cargo and crew capacity of the MkI !
Hermes can at least run and shield the cargo it has (unless degraded engines cough)! Plus little crew needed for it to operate.
really like what you've done here axle, thanks!
probably gonna be starting a new playthrough with this on tomorrow
So, I get it that v0.3 is a test so I won't be complaining on a very limited and narrow ship choices (still would love to see the condor as an option!) nor lack of benefits (:
Aye, I want to include the Condor and reintroduce the benefits. The hard part is getting it to all make sense in the grand scheme of thingsAdd it as either the starting destroyer, or the escort ship with the caveat that choosing the Condor locks out any further choices as you're effectively getting 2 destroyers.
I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possibleAs much as I love destroyer starts in order to skip things I don't like, this guy has a point.
It looks like I may be the only one who prefers 0.2. I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possible, and forcing me to start with a fleet when all I ever really want are one or two ships is a bit much. Also, I had a lot of fun starting off in a Tempest last game. While the new version is well-written and provides a more fleshed-out role-playing experience, I feel much more limited in my choices. Anyway, great work on the mod! I'm still enjoying .2!
The new narrative is both amusing and very in keeping with the setting. It'd be a shame if it went away entirely. ;)
I am also very much a fan of the wannabe pirate comedy start option, and so naturally chose it because reasons.I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possibleAs much as I love destroyer starts in order to skip things I don't like, this guy has a point.
Maybe next version could have a range of choices at the first step, and at every point along the way you have the option to refuse any further "help" and just start with whatever you have picked so far. This also helps make the Condor quandry above a little easier to solve.
Also a good opportunity for the dealer to offer some smug comment about overconfident kids these days etc...
Maybe give fleet size options ranging from Frigate to Frigate+Support to the current Destroyer+Frigate+Support. Each individual ship could then have three options such as Good (e.g. Tempest), Average (e.g. Hammerhead), and Challenge (e.g. Mudskipper Mk. 2).It looks like I may be the only one who prefers 0.2. I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possible, and forcing me to start with a fleet when all I ever really want are one or two ships is a bit much. Also, I had a lot of fun starting off in a Tempest last game. While the new version is well-written and provides a more fleshed-out role-playing experience, I feel much more limited in my choices. Anyway, great work on the mod! I'm still enjoying .2!
Well, everyone has a different way to play, that's for sure! :P And it's one more thing I need to think about when it comes to further work on this mod - thanks for the feedback!The new narrative is both amusing and very in keeping with the setting. It'd be a shame if it went away entirely. ;)
I am also very much a fan of the wannabe pirate comedy start option, and so naturally chose it because reasons.I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possibleAs much as I love destroyer starts in order to skip things I don't like, this guy has a point.
Maybe next version could have a range of choices at the first step, and at every point along the way you have the option to refuse any further "help" and just start with whatever you have picked so far. This also helps make the Condor quandry above a little easier to solve.
Also a good opportunity for the dealer to offer some smug comment about overconfident kids these days etc...
Glad you're enjoying the format! :D
As for the smaller start, I think it's definitely to be thought about. One method I had considered is, instead of starting right away with ship options, give the player a "Fleet Difficulty" option (say, "Beginner", "Normal", and "Challenge") which then gives them three different sets of options (with some possible overlaps where necessary) with ships at what I would consider to be those difficulties.
That would be separate from the "Campaign Difficulty" of course. This just says, "Oh, I'm new / I want a more relaxing start, start with a slightly bigger fleet, maybe some more money, with more run-of-the-mill easy to understand ships," while the Challenge difficulty would be more of "Give me a notably difficult set of starting ships and make me work for survival."
Thoughts?
As for the smaller start, I think it's definitely to be thought about. One method I had considered is, instead of starting right away with ship options, give the player a "Fleet Difficulty" option (say, "Beginner", "Normal", and "Challenge") which then gives them three different sets of options (with some possible overlaps where necessary) with ships at what I would consider to be those difficulties.
That would be separate from the "Campaign Difficulty" of course. This just says, "Oh, I'm new / I want a more relaxing start, start with a slightly bigger fleet, maybe some more money, with more run-of-the-mill easy to understand ships," while the Challenge difficulty would be more of "Give me a notably difficult set of starting ships and make me work for survival."
Thoughts?
It looks like I may be the only one who prefers 0.2. I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possible, and forcing me to start with a fleet when all I ever really want are one or two ships is a bit much. Also, I had a lot of fun starting off in a Tempest last game. While the new version is well-written and provides a more fleshed-out role-playing experience, I feel much more limited in my choices. Anyway, great work on the mod! I'm still enjoying .2!
Well, everyone has a different way to play, that's for sure! :P And it's one more thing I need to think about when it comes to further work on this mod - thanks for the feedback!The new narrative is both amusing and very in keeping with the setting. It'd be a shame if it went away entirely. ;)
I am also very much a fan of the wannabe pirate comedy start option, and so naturally chose it because reasons.I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possibleAs much as I love destroyer starts in order to skip things I don't like, this guy has a point.
Maybe next version could have a range of choices at the first step, and at every point along the way you have the option to refuse any further "help" and just start with whatever you have picked so far. This also helps make the Condor quandry above a little easier to solve.
Also a good opportunity for the dealer to offer some smug comment about overconfident kids these days etc...
Glad you're enjoying the format! :D
As for the smaller start, I think it's definitely to be thought about. One method I had considered is, instead of starting right away with ship options, give the player a "Fleet Difficulty" option (say, "Beginner", "Normal", and "Challenge") which then gives them three different sets of options (with some possible overlaps where necessary) with ships at what I would consider to be those difficulties.
That would be separate from the "Campaign Difficulty" of course. This just says, "Oh, I'm new / I want a more relaxing start, start with a slightly bigger fleet, maybe some more money, with more run-of-the-mill easy to understand ships," while the Challenge difficulty would be more of "Give me a notably difficult set of starting ships and make me work for survival."
Thoughts?
As for the smaller start, I think it's definitely to be thought about. One method I had considered is, instead of starting right away with ship options, give the player a "Fleet Difficulty" option (say, "Beginner", "Normal", and "Challenge") which then gives them three different sets of options (with some possible overlaps where necessary) with ships at what I would consider to be those difficulties.
That would be separate from the "Campaign Difficulty" of course. This just says, "Oh, I'm new / I want a more relaxing start, start with a slightly bigger fleet, maybe some more money, with more run-of-the-mill easy to understand ships," while the Challenge difficulty would be more of "Give me a notably difficult set of starting ships and make me work for survival."
Thoughts?
Please, do it! I want to start with a single Kite shuttle with very few credits and a negative reputation with the Hegemony.
I wanted to role-play as someone who hates the Hegemony, but the forced tutorial made sure I wouldn't be able to do that (so I'm playing 0.7.2 instead, lol).
It looks like I may be the only one who prefers 0.2. I actually prefer to start my new games with as few ships as possible, and forcing me to start with a fleet when all I ever really want are one or two ships is a bit much. Also, I had a lot of fun starting off in a Tempest last game. While the new version is well-written and provides a more fleshed-out role-playing experience, I feel much more limited in my choices. Anyway, great work on the mod! I'm still enjoying .2!
Any chance of an update for 0.8.1a? It really makes the beginning more fun, but I'd also prefer varied options for a easier or harder start instead of just stacking you with a bunch of awesome ships.
I guess i should say, while running dynasector only, it gives you the option to start with the vanilla starting options, where this mod works fine. so there it should be compatible just fine.
Ideally I'd love to see the game officially have a point based system where you can buy your starting ships, weapons, officers, skills and faction relations.
Maybe having the vanilla as the recommended option with the points system unlocking after one playthrough?Ideally I'd love to see the game officially have a point based system where you can buy your starting ships, weapons, officers, skills and faction relations.
Perhaps, but if you gave the player X number of points and then allowed them to spend those to buy ships/weapons/officers/change relations/etc. then the system will undoubtedly end up being cheesed by people, say, putting all their points into a phase ship or something and either A) stomping the entire early-game or B) running out of supplies and raging at the game for being dumb.
It would have to be a carefully metered mechanic, and even then may end up causing more confusion (with yet another number the player has to keep track of) than is worth it. If I was to use such a format for Better Beginning, I'd present it as an initial number of credits that the player can spend to buy ships and additional weapons/goods (from a limited selection), similar to how you might choose to play in a normal game if you skip the tutorial, but through the game creation process.
Maybe having the vanilla as the recommended option with the points system unlocking after one playthrough?
I don't think the balance is a huge concern, it's a sandbox and if you want to cheese it, you will always be able to.
This would just make for interesting playthoughs without the extra busywork at the beginning, like setting all factions to negative opinions or going full merchant.
I feel like it would be nice to be able to integrate this mod into Nexerelin. I honestly like this kind better: You would choose a faction and then choose your ships rather than a set load out of ships you have to choose from.
You do know that there's an option to randomize the starting ships in Nexerelin, right? And there's no limit to how much you reroll the ships - you can spam the button until you get a fleet you like the look of. :P
I'm working on a spiritual successor that will be far, far more exciting and original.
There's actually has a limit on what ships you get on the randomization. Nex uses a list of ships for each faction (even the player faction and solo mode) to be generated as starting ships. It just depends if you want to change it yourself.you can always just use the Console Commands mod to create your own custom start, if you feel like it. that's what i usually do, and it only takes a couple of minutes. :]
I wonder if this works on 9.1 if I choose to ban Nexerelin.
I wonder if this works on 9.1 if I choose to ban Nexerelin.
I highly doubt this mod will work with 0.9, though you are welcome to try. As this mod was discontinued in 2017 however I can’t say how it might screw things up if it even starts enabled.
With all that aside, there is really no reason to use Better Beginning over Nexerelin. The latter does much the same job far better and more smoothly, and has a much more established history. If you want to just avoid certain features Nex comes with, I’m sure you can toggle those things in the mod’s settings file.
(In aside, it is technically against the forum rules to necro old threads like this, though the context is relevant. In future, feel free to PM such questions.)