Fractal Softworks Forum

Starsector => Announcements => Topic started by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 10:36:56 AM

Title: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 10:36:56 AM
Blog post/download links here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2017/04/20/starsector-0-8a-release/).

Hotfix (RC19), April 21, 2017

Campaign

Miscellaneous:

Bugfixing


Hotfix (RC18), April 21, 2017

Bugfixing



Changes as of April 20, 2017

Campaign

Skills

Ships

Miscellaneous

Bugfixing


Changes as of April 13, 2017

Campaign

Ships

Miscellaneous

Modding

Bugfixing:



Changes as of March 23, 2017

Campaign


Ship recovery

Ship autofit
Will spend points on vents, capacitors, and some general-purpose hullmods

Refit screen



Miscellaneous

Officers:

Skill overhaul

New/adjusted hullmods:

Ships

Weapons

Combat

Modding

Bugfixing



Changes as of December 03, 2016

Campaign


Combat

Miscellaneous



Modding

Bugfixing

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 10:39:52 AM
A few notes:

1) This doesn't mean the release is imminent, though naturally it's getting fairly close. There are a few things to work through before then - one or two I'd probably call big features, a lot of content creation, and a good amount of playtesting. And a few modability improvements.

2) These notes are not as thorough as usual, especially in the "Modding" section. The other sections, basically just assume they're missing a lot of minor stuff.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Grievous69 on December 03, 2016, 10:45:54 AM
I'm so moist right now :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on December 03, 2016, 10:55:29 AM
*Finishes reading post*

*rolls over, lights a cigarette*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on December 03, 2016, 11:12:47 AM
1) This doesn't mean the release is imminent, though naturally it's getting fairly close. There are a few things to work through before then - one or two I'd probably call big features, a lot of content creation, and a good amount of playtesting. And a few modability improvements.
Given the changes to Hullmods, I would bet one of those "big features" is the still unconfirmed Skill revamp...

Edit: Speaking of readability and overlap, could we have the info card of weapons in markets and inventory appear next to the weapon rather than on top of it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 03, 2016, 11:13:10 AM
yes thank you god for this gift of patch notes
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morgan Rue on December 03, 2016, 11:21:40 AM
No changes to flak?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morgan Rue on December 03, 2016, 11:25:30 AM
  • Fixed infinite loop related to system-activated engines being disabled on a ship with no normal engines
You caught this one when moving stations around with systems?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
Given the changes to Hullmods, I would bet one of those "big features" is the still unconfirmed Skill revamp...

:-X


No changes to flak?

Nope. "Not much if anything gets through" is flak working as intended. The window of opportunity for using missiles etc is overloads, being distracted by something else (another ship, decoy flares), etc. Plus it now gets a newly important threat to counter in fighters.


No changes to Proximity Charge Launcher?

No. It's always been a bit of an oddball; probably needs another look but I wouldn't want to make it too good.


You caught this one when moving stations around with systems?

Caught it when someone reported it a while back :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bastion.Systems on December 03, 2016, 11:32:12 AM
Ohshit its of happening
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Auraknight on December 03, 2016, 11:42:11 AM
Update hype! Looking forward to messing with all these new mechanics!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on December 03, 2016, 11:43:57 AM
Huzzah!  It's happening!

Time to read this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Azmond on December 03, 2016, 11:51:39 AM
AUUUUUGH~!!!! GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY~!!! AAAUHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA-UUAAGH!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 12:01:14 PM
Wowza, some pretty big bombshells in here—big nerfs to combat speed boosting hullmods and the killing of "vent spamming" jump out in particular!

What exactly does the tier increase for HM and HVD mean? Does that relate to when you can unlock them via commission? Also, wow, a lot of new ballistic weapons—is the Devastator that flak looking weapon you teased months ago?

Was hoping you'd reveal a brief bit about the new hulls other than the Mora, but, there is always next iteration of them notes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lakis on December 03, 2016, 12:03:19 PM
AUUUUUGH~!!!! GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY,GOODY~!!! AAAUHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA-UUAAGH!

If I weren't in a building with 15 other men who were all sleeping, I'd be laughing like this maniac... He'll do it for me though..
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on December 03, 2016, 12:06:24 PM
its happening  ...
maybe a Christmas present  ;D ;D
But honestly, I don´t think so :)

cant wait to try out those changes to fighters
and fly the aurora and tempest.
Hammerhead will be even more cool now i think :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
What exactly does the tier increase for HM and HVD mean? Does that relate to when you can unlock them via commission? Also, wow, a lot of new ballistic weapons—is the Devastator that flak looking weapon you teased months ago?

Yes and yes :)

Was hoping you'd reveal a brief bit about the new hulls other than the Mora, but, there is always next iteration of them notes.

Ahh, sorry - most of those are REDACTED.


Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: torbes on December 03, 2016, 12:22:36 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/1fai8j.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/1fai8j)
via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on December 03, 2016, 12:44:01 PM
Quote
Base CR for ships is 70%
Should we expect Combat Aptitude to add 3% per level then? Or are other skill changes incoming?

Quote
Increases post-battle salvage by up to 10% based on the portion of the battle the Salvage Rig spent deployed
My gut reaction is this seems small, seeing as you're burning supplies dragging it out there, and additional supplies to deploy it, and you're likely needing escorts to keep it safe.

Quote
Weapons will not reload for the first two seconds of venting or being overloaded
I like the change, but my gut says 2 secs is slightly on the high side.

Quote
Unstable Injector
Removed acceleration bonus and engine damage penalty
Now reduces weapon range by 25%
Reduced OP cost

Augmented Engines
Removed in-combat speed bonus
Reduced cost
Renamed to "Augmented Drive Field"
It seems they no longer give overlapping bonuses. Will we now be able to get both on one ship?

Quote
Integrated Targeting Unit:
Reduced cost to match DTC
Slightly increased range bonus for cruisers (+5%) and capital ships (+10%)
I thought that Integrated Targeting Unit was strong before, but it feels like even more of a must-have for capitals now.

Everything else, I feel like I'm gonna have to play to see! I'm looking forward to it! ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 12:48:26 PM
Should we expect Combat Aptitude to add 3% per level then? Or are other skill changes incoming?

More on that... later :)

My gut reaction is this seems small, seeing as you're burning supplies dragging it out there, and additional supplies to deploy it, and you're likely needing escorts to keep it safe.

Yeah, I'm not sure this will stay in actually. It has some other problems - it's either always worth it to deploy the rig, or always not, depending on the battle size.


I like the change, but my gut says 2 secs is slightly on the high side.

We'll see, I guess. Open to tweaking it as needed, but want to make sure it's not inconsequential in the first iteration.


It seems they no longer give overlapping bonuses. Will we now be able to get both on one ship?

Yes!

I thought that Integrated Targeting Unit was strong before, but it feels like even more of a must-have for capitals now.

It basically is, yes, and combat is designed/balanced around that. However, there's still an option for a specialized build without it.

Everything else, I feel like I'm gonna have to play to see! I'm looking forward to it! ;D

:D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 03, 2016, 01:22:52 PM
Of course the patch notes drop when I'm sleeping... >.< *starts spamming F5*
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 01:35:59 PM
I can see the benefits of converting some (many?) hullmods to rewards for scavenging and exploring. It'd prevent cases of someone leveling up a skill they don't care for just to get that one really good hullmod. It'd also serve to make scavenging/exploration more compelling and rewarding. Hmm.

Anything more you can share about this or still a big fat :-X for now?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 03, 2016, 01:42:08 PM
I noticed that the Apogee didn't get nerfed while the Aurora kinda did and I'm worried that the AI is just going to waste the Jets at best and get it self killed at worst...
Also, WTB, DISCOVER_FOR_CODEX hint
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 01:56:21 PM
Yeah, c'mon. Nothing to bring the Apogee more in line?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 03, 2016, 01:58:07 PM
Cool!

Quote
Hullmods can now be acquired from a "Modspec" item
Dropped by enemies
Found as salvage
Bought on markets

That's awesome, something I wanted for a long time. Wonder what it means for the skill system. If unlockable hullmods are even still part of it, this would make them far less important in choosing a skill branch. I like everything that makes ship building more opportunistic!

Im curious, what's the etymology of "modspec"? Does it come from to spec something with a mod? Seems a bit abstract, I can't picture how it would work from the word.



the Aurora kinda did [get  nerfed ]

I believe with the new system it's supposedly an overall buff.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on December 03, 2016, 01:59:31 PM
Ooooohhhh boy!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 02:03:42 PM
I can see the benefits of converting some (many?) hullmods to rewards for scavenging and exploring. It'd prevent cases of someone leveling up a skill they don't care for just to get that one really good hullmod. It'd also serve to make scavenging/exploration more compelling and rewarding. Hmm.

Yep, both big reasons for the change.

Anything more you can share about this or still a big fat :-X for now?

'fraid so.


I noticed that the Apogee didn't get nerfed while the Aurora kinda did and I'm worried that the AI is just going to waste the Jets at best and get it self killed at worst...

I've still got a TODO item to look at the Apogee and a couple of other balance things.


Im curious, what's the etymology of "modspec"? Does it come from to spec something with a mod? Seems a bit abstract, I can't picture how it would work from the word.

"Hull modification specification".

(Sorry if this comes off a bit rushed, heading out in a few.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 03, 2016, 02:03:47 PM
the Aurora kinda did [get nerfed ]
I believe with the new system it's supposedly an overall buff.
True it is supposed to be buffed but the loss of the flux cap plus the way the AI uses M Jets and the lack of decent ENERGY weapons (while ballistics gets two more... *grumbles*) tells me that it is gonna get killed even more in the hands of the AI
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 03, 2016, 03:49:17 PM
With the Unstable Injector changes, it seems only worth using on ships with either long-range ballistics and beams (e.g., Eagle with Mauler+HVD+Tac Lasers) and can afford the range cut or any high-tech that just should use Safety Override because 600 range energy weapons become 450 with Unstable Injector (same as Safety Override).  Energy weapons (aside from beams that are hard countered by shields) have terrible shot range, and aside from the ultra-rare super frigates, low tech equals or beats high-tech.  Seems like a win for low-tech and ballistic focused midline.  High-tech will probably get shafted (be slow or use knives instead of guns), except Hyperion and maybe Scarab (and maybe Paragon if it has that builtin mini-station targeting hullmod).

It is nice Hammerhead will get a little more OP, plus ammo feeder not so suicidal.  Since ships that have ammo feeder have poor flux stats, 30% was not enough, if the weapons were not flux efficient LMGs or Mortars.

Also nice that battlecruisers will become battlecruisers, not just simply remain as inferior battleships.

I like that hullmods may be accessible aside from skills.  Never liked Applied Physics, but I sometimes took it at endgame just to get Advanced Optics and make Phase Lance viable.  It is useless with 600 range since Pulse Laser and Heavy Blaster can hit for hard flux but Phase Lance cannot, and Phase Lance needs the extra range to have a point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 03, 2016, 03:55:47 PM
Quote
Flamed-out missiles now have a 50% chance to bounce off harmlessly on impact
This looks like it can harm Annihilators.  They flame out early then drift a long time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 04:25:09 PM
Oh, that is spot on about the Annhilators, Megas. This could drastically reduce their effectiveness (they're my go-to missile weapon :-[)!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 03, 2016, 06:17:18 PM
Minor nit pick: Why is the patch notes release date listed with the day first and the month second while the blog post is the other way around?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on December 03, 2016, 06:18:48 PM
I'm not sure if I understand correctly, are new/acquirable hullmods finite? As in you can only enable it depending on how many of the item you have or are you able to install them on any ships as long as you have the item in your inventory?

Are there any hullmods from salvaging that you haven't revealed? I understand I'm asking for REDACTED stuff but one of the reasons why I see all these movement nerfs to current hullmods is to allow new ones that need to be salvaged to fulfill that role.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 06:25:40 PM
Maybe Alex does have some plans for special, high-end hullmods but I think that Alex has been meaning to tone down combat speed for quite some time. So, it is possible that, no, there will be no superior +combat speed hullmod.

But who knows what with all the [REDACTED] and [EXPUNGED] and  :-X :-X :-X going on here! lol

Sheesh, sometimes I feel like I'm reading the SCP Foundation logs! http://www.scp-wiki.net/top-rated-pages. (awesome stuff, read'em!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: theSONY on December 03, 2016, 06:27:54 PM
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/le-miiverse-resource/images/2/2e/Didn-t-read-lol-o.gif/revision/latest?cb=20160207034756)
                                                                                                                      ::)
but excited as hell  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 03, 2016, 06:30:07 PM
combat speed has been a problem for a long time. the rather absurd percentile scaling that skills + several dedicated speedmods added was pretty ridiculous.

it's been my concern for a while that larger ships are altogether too adroit; used to be you could flank an onslaught with an eagle. now due to it's insane range + cruiser-scale turning ability you'll die long before you get anywhere near it.

hope maneuverability gets nerfed too. it's too "cheap" to have a maneuverable battleship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 03, 2016, 06:42:54 PM
The main thing Augmented Engines had over Unstable Injector was +1 burn speed, although +5 top speed over Unstable Injector was nice too.  It seems Unstable Injector takes care of the combat speed, and Augmented Drive Field takes care of burn speed.

The one downgrade I may be concerned about is the shot range downgrade for Unstable Injector.  I am anticipating focusing on sniper configurations (use long range weapons only to compensate for lost range) and/or installing a flight deck (since fighters are now big missiles that shoot baby missiles or bullets) to maintain kiting and enough speed to avoid damage.

For some ships that do not have that option, like Wolf (or even Aurora), I may not bother using.  Either it is too slow with 600 range laser/blaster, or it has decent speed with 450 range, which means Wolf is dead against a Lasher with machine guns which also has 450 (or a little less) range and can use engine mods without (much) penalty.  If energy weapons will continue to keep such short range or even lose what little range they had, in addition to possible removal of vent-spam, they need more DPS to compete with kinetics.  Ballistics already have the advantage of shot range, DPS, and overall efficiency over energy weapons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on December 03, 2016, 07:12:56 PM
Alex, on the Discord channel you said:

Quote
regarding the DTC/ITU, the idea is that it's a default choice in most cases, but you can still go for a specialized build that doesn't use it. Baking it into the hull would remove that option. But, yeah, 90% of the time you're going to want to install it.
So most default variants will have it?
Does the skill revamp include ITU being available at start? If it remains a straight upgrade from DTC, I'm guessing no. Will it still be readily available via the new modspecs?

(The part that bothers me about the cost change is: if 90% of builds are going to have it, it should just be baked into the hull and instead there's a hullmod that gives more OP or other benefits in exchange for removing the range bonus. This reduces the clutter of DTC/ITU appearing all the time, and avoids noob traps where new players don't install it because they don't know they're supposed to.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 03, 2016, 07:20:57 PM
DTC/ITU is one of the two hullmods I throw on nearly everything (the other being current Augmented Engines).  There are few ships that do not need it, namely Hyperion, pure missile boats, and civilians (or blockade runners) not expected to fight.

I agree with Histidine, ITU should be baked into hulls, unless it might interfere with built-in range mods some hulls (Paragon or stations) may get.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 03, 2016, 07:21:42 PM
Alex, on the Discord channel you said:

SHOOT I need to download that onto my new phone, I always miss good stuff
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on December 03, 2016, 07:26:45 PM
Very cool! Can't wait to play with the new fighters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 03, 2016, 07:34:56 PM
Alex, on the Discord channel you said:

SHOOT I need to download that onto my new phone, I always miss good stuff
If you have a computer you can use the web version. And granted he wasn't on for very long
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 03, 2016, 07:42:46 PM
That is a neat idea, Histidine.

Just bake the range into all ships, say, frigates/fighters have base weapon range with each bigger size noted as having the corresponding %boost to range. Then, add a new hullmod that says it transfers resources/CPU/AI power from targeting systems to instead increase ship OP!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morgan Rue on December 03, 2016, 10:15:18 PM
For the range vs speed thing:
Fast ships don't need range as long as they can close the distance without dying and then outperform their longer ranged enemies in close range combat. Also, speed can double as defense by allowing to dodge projectiles at longer ranges.
Long ranged ships don't need to be fast as long as they can blow everything up before they can get close.
Fast ships that also have long range should not be able to overwhelm an equal opponents shields ever. If they can, then they are almost certainly overpowered. This is why beams build soft flux instead of hard flux.

Currently, the default seems to be long ranged ships. I would like fast ships to be more competitive with long ranged ships. Also, most fast ships are high tech, so I would also like high tech ships to be more competitive with low tech ships. Hopefully this happens in the upcoming update.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 03, 2016, 10:21:31 PM
True it is supposed to be buffed but the loss of the flux cap plus the way the AI uses M Jets and the lack of decent ENERGY weapons (while ballistics gets two more... *grumbles*) tells me that it is gonna get killed even more in the hands of the AI

I think I've said it before, but from my experience, it's definitely more survivable than before. The ability to dart out is great.


With the Unstable Injector changes, it seems only worth using on ships with either long-range ballistics and beams (e.g., Eagle with Mauler+HVD+Tac Lasers) and can afford the range cut or any high-tech that just should use Safety Override because 600 range energy weapons become 450 with Unstable Injector (same as Safety Override).

That's assuming a lack of range-boosting hullmods and skills, both of which would not help with SO. Also, kind of glossing over the other downsides of SO :)


Quote
Flamed-out missiles now have a 50% chance to bounce off harmlessly on impact
This looks like it can harm Annihilators.  They flame out early then drift a long time.

Yeah. They also don't drift that long anymore; their range was a bit extreme and the AI didn't use that well to boot.


Minor nit pick: Why is the patch notes release date listed with the day first and the month second while the blog post is the other way around?

Ahh, thank you, fixed. Every now and then my brain reverts to the non-US way of writing that.


I'm not sure if I understand correctly, are new/acquirable hullmods finite? As in you can only enable it depending on how many of the item you have or are you able to install them on any ships as long as you have the item in your inventory?

The way it works is you get the modspec, right-click on it, it disappears and you permanently gain access to the mod.

Are there any hullmods from salvaging that you haven't revealed? I understand I'm asking for REDACTED stuff but one of the reasons why I see all these movement nerfs to current hullmods is to allow new ones that need to be salvaged to fulfill that role.

Not at the moment, but if there were, it would indeed be 100% REDACTED.


Maybe Alex does have some plans for special, high-end hullmods but I think that Alex has been meaning to tone down combat speed for quite some time. So, it is possible that, no, there will be no superior +combat speed hullmod.

Yes, exactly.


hope maneuverability gets nerfed too. it's too "cheap" to have a maneuverable battleship.

Yep.


Alex, on the Discord channel you said:

Quote
regarding the DTC/ITU, the idea is that it's a default choice in most cases, but you can still go for a specialized build that doesn't use it. Baking it into the hull would remove that option. But, yeah, 90% of the time you're going to want to install it.
So most default variants will have it?
Does the skill revamp include ITU being available at start? If it remains a straight upgrade from DTC, I'm guessing no. Will it still be readily available via the new modspecs?

(The part that bothers me about the cost change is: if 90% of builds are going to have it, it should just be baked into the hull and instead there's a hullmod that gives more OP or other benefits in exchange for removing the range bonus. This reduces the clutter of DTC/ITU appearing all the time, and avoids noob traps where new players don't install it because they don't know they're supposed to.)

I hear what you're saying. But: one, "hullmods giving more OP" isn't a thing. Two, it it was baked in via a built-in hullmod, that wouldn't actually reduce clutter - and if it was just baked in, that'd be a hidden stat, also not newbie-friendly. My feeling is neither solution is ideal, and this one has the virtue of being simpler.

Yeah, the ITU will be available via modspecs, like everything else. Shouldn't be too hard to get provided (to your other point) that a lot of variants use it. I haven't updated all of them (though I've improved quite a few so far), but generally speaking, whenever I do update a variant, it gets the ITU/DTC for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on December 03, 2016, 11:25:13 PM
Nice. A lot of interesting stuff in the current changelog. Is it possible to create custom scavenged hullmods that can only be installed per ship, requiring a person to collect more of them if they want their entire fleet to have it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 04, 2016, 05:43:41 AM
Quote from: Alex
That's assuming a lack of range-boosting hullmods and skills, both of which would not help with SO. Also, kind of glossing over the other downsides of SO
It does, especially with the severe peak performance cut, but if the ship works best with Safety Override due to min-max reasons, like current Lasher, then that is what will get used, despite the drawbacks.

Quote from: Morgan Rue
Fast ships don't need range as long as they can close the distance without dying and then outperform their longer ranged enemies in close range combat.
That may be a bit of a problem high-tech ships have when fighting low-tech or other ships with ballistics.  High-tech ships get close, then overload because an exchange between flux-hungry energy weapons and efficient longer-ranged kinetics (or very efficient, high DPS, and short-range machineguns) means ballistics win.  Low-tech ships probably will not have a problem - just use the long-ranged stuff.  High-tech ships will have even less range if they use Unstable Injector to keep up with other ships that use Unstable Injector.

If non-beam energy weapons will keep short range, they need more damage and/or much better flux efficiency to match ballistics.  Having stats comparable to HE weapons except with damage type and shorter range is not cutting it.  (Of course, that may make Hyperion and Paragon - if it gets the special range mod - even better.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Spoorthuzad on December 04, 2016, 05:46:15 AM
Oh, YES!
This looks amazing Alex. :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Vind on December 04, 2016, 06:52:06 AM
Nice changes but "Removed crew experience levels" means ships without officers will be unable to improve accuracy and CR. I will miss my elite crew.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on December 04, 2016, 07:18:43 AM
I like those changes, the obnoxious ships (Heron, every Damper Field-ers) got a slight nerf to what makes them annoying to fight.

The Omen got further buffed with the much stronger EMP emitter, that thing is going to be a fighter's boogeyman. By the way, does the "Flamed-out missiles now have a 50% chance to bounce off harmlessly on impact" affect EMP'd missiles, or just the ones out of fuel?

A question about the Tempest, does the drone reload its blaster when recalled? Hopefully not, the Tempest is already at the top of the foodchain, it doesn't needs a near instant reloading, flux-free AM blaster on top of that.

Also glad to see an armor buff for the Astral, maybe this will even allow some brawler builds. Gotta find a reason to use that new torpedo launcher.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 04, 2016, 07:44:26 AM
It occurred to me that if hullmods will be potential loot, and the only way to get a particular one is killing friendlies (for example, if Paragon is the only ship with Hardened Shields, and you are commissioned with Tri-Tachyon), then player can travel with transponder off and kill friendly ships, then laugh evilly after scooping up desired loot, and maybe board a rare ship that shops could but refuse to sell.

I have ran with transponder off to do some relatively violent shenanigans occasionally to game the system.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bastion.Systems on December 04, 2016, 08:20:37 AM
It occurred to me that if hullmods will be potential loot, and the only way to get a particular one is killing friendlies
I don't think the modspecs are ship specific (might be wrong tho).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Vulpes on December 04, 2016, 08:24:26 AM
Nice to see you're still improving the AI.  I'm hoping one of the "big content additions" will be the long anticipated addition of industry!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 04, 2016, 08:32:37 AM
Maybe ships are drop modspecs they use, just like weapons.  For example, if you want Maulers and HVDs, you fight Enforcers, not Auroras.  Some may be common, but others are not.  In case of Hardened Shields, Paragon uses it, but I do not know if other ships do.  If Paragon is the only ship that uses that hullmod, they the only way to get it by looting is to fight one.  If other ships use Hardened Shields, then they would drop it too, assuming modspec loot varies by what ships use.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 04, 2016, 09:22:29 AM
Needless to say there's a lot of cool stuff in this patch which represents a bit step forward in the game development, like the exploration which I've been anticipating a while. Good work.

However:

-Loss of crew experience levels
This is sad, because leveling up the crew felt extremely rewarding, and losing your elites (ie when you put them in a fighter wing) added jeopardy and a more human touch to combat. The losses meant something, when they were crew you'd trained up from greens. I hope that more gameplay with officers, including the ability for them to actually die, will supplant the elimination of crew experience levels (which I nonetheless urge you to reconsider carefully).

More mechanics and rules solely for the sake of balance, with little/no intuitive in-world logic Starsector has been developing itself into this corner for a long time and probably the die is cast in this regard, but every once and a while like to point out the limitations of this approach.

For example:
-Hyperspace slows small fleets more than big fleets.
-Random effects of hullmods e.g. Unstable injector reducing weapons range
and old favorites:
-CR/PPT, of course
-Ship has campaign burn speed, and separate combat speed which is different. (so you have ridiculous situations where one ship can have a faster burn speed and keep catching another ship, but the other ship has a faster combat speed and can keep getting away, necessitating a bunch more pre/post combat dialogue box CR rules)

There are two kinds of games (for the purposes of this discussion anyway):
-Simulation games (flight sims, space world sims, mario sims, etc)
-Abstracted games (board games, chess, go-fish, etc)

In abstracted games, you memorize a bunch of arbitrary rules designed to be conducive to smooth gameplay. Bishops move diagonally, rooks move horizontally. Spades are trump cards, whatever.

In a simulation, you memorize the in-world characteristics of different items and entities, like how fast your character can jump. The game sets a few premises (you can run, you can jump, you can shoot a small gun, you can shoot a bigger gun, you get tired) and everything should follow more or less logically from those, if you just are willing to remember the distinction between different entities in the game.

I know I'm simplifying things a bit but there is at least a kernal of truth to the distinction.

Starsector is obviously trying to be a simulation since it has you memorize a bunch of weapon and ship stats, keep track of planets, and so on, but then it is also acting like an abstracted board game- with the mechanics mentioned above that really don't follow logically from the world premises. ("After combat you take a x% CR penalty if you do something or other. Because balance. Bishops move diagonally") They are arbitrary purely for the sake of balance. For an abstracted game this is ok, but for a simulation style game it's sub-optimal, since then players are forced to memorize both abstracted rules and in-world characteristics. It's a big mnemonic burden in addition to breaking the logic and believably of the simulated world. The two approaches aren't very compatible.

The "sustained drive" mechanics would actually not be an example of what I'm talking about, if the fx are done right. When you engage the drive their would be some 'hyperspace drive charging up' sounds for a few moments and the ships engines would start glowing intensely until finally jumping, and this would make immediately clear the in world logic behind the balance dictated rule of having fleets stop for a few moments before the drive starts.

Long story short please try to find balance motivated mechanics that have an in-game logic instead of being arbitrary and non intuitive.  Though this would require overhauling the CR system and the combat vs campaign speed disparity issues however.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on December 04, 2016, 09:58:50 AM
More mechanics and rules solely for the sake of balance, with little/no intuitive in-world logic Starsector has been developing itself into this corner for a long time and probably the die is cast in this regard, but every once and a while like to point out the limitations of this approach.

For example:
-Hyperspace slows small fleets more than big fleets.
-Random effects of hullmods e.g. Unstable injector reducing weapons range
and old favorites:
-CR/PPT, of course
-Ship has campaign burn speed, and separate combat speed which is different. (so you have ridiculous situations where one ship can have a faster burn speed and keep catching another ship, but the other ship has a faster combat speed and can keep getting away, necessitating a bunch more pre/post combat dialogue box CR rules)
IIRC in-lore explanations(or at least attempts at handwaving) were done for all of the things you mentioned, and most of them are in-game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Bastion.Systems on December 04, 2016, 10:09:14 AM
Starsector is a space opera, it should be able to technobabble justifications for anything if the game balance benefits from it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 04, 2016, 10:18:22 AM
i think i failed to articulate sufficiently. yes of course there are in game hand waves. what i want are actually intuitive mechanics that don't require these incredibly strained explanations which nobody buys anyway; you may as well just type 'BALANCE' in the in game description.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 04, 2016, 10:28:18 AM
i never minded CR, but perhaps at least we can get a burn-derived in-combat speed, so that the infinite chase thing doesn't happen anymore(?)

not sure it can be done though, with how coarse burn is in general. but it would benefit the game.

also i'm a simulation kind of guy so i agree with what you are saying in principle, but CR doesn't offend me that much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 04, 2016, 10:34:58 AM
For crew levels, I say good riddance.  70% baseline will certainly make things easier for early-game (unless malfunction level was shifted upward too).  50-60% CR for your very first combat meant your ships may start breaking after one fight!  I would miss elite crew only because 80% became the baseline by endgame, and 70% is less than 80%.  Well, there was also the option for training greens to elite for selling, if character built for it.  (I never did it, but I could if money was more valuable than stronger combat skills.)  Now, Combat Aptitude will be more important for chain-battling or endurance fighting, if it gives +3% instead of +2% per level.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 04, 2016, 10:39:43 AM
Quote
(so you have ridiculous situations where one ship can have a faster burn speed and keep catching another ship, but the other ship has a faster combat speed and can keep getting away, necessitating a bunch more pre/post combat dialogue box CR rules)
Case in point?  Condor vs. Gemini.  Condor has faster burn speed, but Gemini has faster combat speed.  It makes no sense.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 04, 2016, 10:51:14 AM
Quote
(so you have ridiculous situations where one ship can have a faster burn speed and keep catching another ship, but the other ship has a faster combat speed and can keep getting away, necessitating a bunch more pre/post combat dialogue box CR rules)
Case in point?  Condor vs. Gemini.  Condor has faster burn speed, but Gemini has faster combat speed.  It makes no sense.


The kite and the cerberus also had this thing going on for a while, don't know if the current version still does...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 04, 2016, 12:17:43 PM
Quote
(so you have ridiculous situations where one ship can have a faster burn speed and keep catching another ship, but the other ship has a faster combat speed and can keep getting away, necessitating a bunch more pre/post combat dialogue box CR rules)
Case in point?  Condor vs. Gemini.  Condor has faster burn speed, but Gemini has faster combat speed.  It makes no sense.


IIRC the burn drives that ships use for interstellar travel are essentially a different form of locomotion from the engines they use in combat.  There's no inherent correlation between their capabilities in either mode.

This fact of the game world is only further emphasized by engine modifications working entirely on one and not the other.


Also, y'know, holy *** this is gonna be a good Easter.


EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 01:12:04 PM
I like those changes, the obnoxious ships (Heron, every Damper Field-ers) got a slight nerf to what makes them annoying to fight.

Just wanted to mention that the damper field changes specifically were motivated by your feedback post; "no fun was allowed that day" :) Thank you!


The Omen got further buffed with the much stronger EMP emitter, that thing is going to be a fighter's boogeyman. By the way, does the "Flamed-out missiles now have a 50% chance to bounce off harmlessly on impact" affect EMP'd missiles, or just the ones out of fuel?

EMP'ed missiles actually instantly become 100% disarmed. There's a method in MissileAPI that can be used to set a missile resistance to EMP, i.e. the number of times it can be hit with the EMP emitter before it disarms.

A question about the Tempest, does the drone reload its blaster when recalled? Hopefully not, the Tempest is already at the top of the foodchain, it doesn't needs a near instant reloading, flux-free AM blaster on top of that.

It's not a drone anymore, so recalling it simply makes it hover behind the Tempest.

Also glad to see an armor buff for the Astral, maybe this will even allow some brawler builds. Gotta find a reason to use that new torpedo launcher.

Hmm, maybe. So far the large missile slots have been great to use with the Squall - good support for fighter waves.



It occurred to me that if hullmods will be potential loot, and the only way to get a particular one is killing friendlies (for example, if Paragon is the only ship with Hardened Shields, and you are commissioned with Tri-Tachyon), then player can travel with transponder off and kill friendly ships, then laugh evilly after scooping up desired loot, and maybe board a rare ship that shops could but refuse to sell.

You can buy hullmods at markets; generally speaking the ones that are available for sale are the ones that that faction tends to use.

Maybe ships are drop modspecs they use, just like weapons.

They do, yes, though the baseline chance is pretty small.


Nice changes but "Removed crew experience levels" means ships without officers will be unable to improve accuracy and CR. I will miss my elite crew.

Yeah, but man does it make so many things on the backend *so* much easier and less bug-prone. Even if this was a subtraction in terms of gameplay (which I don't think it is - it feels cleaner now), it would still be 100% worth it just for how much it makes any related code easier, and for how many more crew-related mechanics are in the game as a result.


Nice to see you're still improving the AI.  I'm hoping one of the "big content additions" will be the long anticipated addition of industry!

Not outposts, but there's something in the pipeline as far as the industry aptitude - hopefully it'll pan out, can't wait to talk about it if it does :)



Needless to say there's a lot of cool stuff in this patch which represents a bit step forward in the game development, like the exploration which I've been anticipating a while. Good work.

Thank you!

There are two kinds of games (for the purposes of this discussion anyway):
-Simulation games (flight sims, space world sims, mario sims, etc)
-Abstracted games (board games, chess, go-fish, etc)

I don't think it makes sense to categorize games into these buckets, or even consider "simulation" and "abstracted" to be the opposite ends of a spectrum - rather, they're both independent axes.

Consider a detailed historical board game - those clearly tend to care very much about being a simulation, but are at a high level of abstraction. Conversely, FPS games like Call of Duty or Counter-Strike are generally at a low level of abstraction, but don't care much about being a simulation.

Most games are a simulation to some degree, though: e.g. Chess - both heavily abstracted and not-very-simulation-y - is still a simulation of war.


-Random effects of hullmods e.g. Unstable injector reducing weapons range

For example, something like this - there's a clean in-fiction justification for it, "increased engine emissions interfere with targeting sensors". It's consistent with other gameplay mechanics here - the idea of engines and sensors interacting in this way comes through in multiple places. It's hardly random, in fact I think one could make a good argument that both this and PPT and other similar mechanics increase the "simulationiness" of the game. At the same time, the game is clearly highly abstracted - combat takes place on a 2D plane, bullets fade out, relative ship sizes aren't right for what they'd be in-universe, etc.

Anyway, my point here is that singling out Unstable Injector doesn't seem reasonable. It's about on par with other hullmods. Sure, you might say that those are also too abstract - which may be a fair point, but then we're talking about such a large part of the game that I'd turn it around and suggest that maybe they're too abstract for what you think the game ought to be than for what it actually is :)


Long story short please try to find balance motivated mechanics that have an in-game logic instead of being arbitrary and non intuitive.  Though this would require overhauling the CR system and the combat vs campaign speed disparity issues however.

That's exactly what I'm doing, yeah. I just don't see the examples you're bringing up as not fitting those criteria. The one case where I'd agree is some of the rules around when PPT ticks down (not PPT in general; I'm happy with *that*). On the bright side, the "when does PPT tick down" rules only really come into play when the player is trying hard to exploit them, at which point it's not that big a deal.

So: I get what you're saying, and generally agree with it on a more abstract level. But details, man.



Also, y'know, holy *** this is gonna be a good Easter.

Oh, you.


EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.

Hopefully!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 04, 2016, 01:13:45 PM
There are two kinds of games

In abstracted games, you memorize a bunch of arbitrary rules

In a simulation, you memorize the in-world characteristics of different items and entities

I don't think that is a correct or helpful differentiation. I mean, isn't it the same thing? A bunch of rules make up the characteristics of entities and items. Entities and items are made by the rules that define them.

I think your main point is that Starsector is often not great at communicating its mechanics, and I would agree with that. This attempt at a theoretical underpinning seems  misguided to me, though.

Imagine that instead of having just a reduced CR% value, the graphic were made in a way that you could see the combat stresses occurring during battle, and the subsequent failure of on-board equipment and crew. Or that the different drive types (combat/burn) were clearly visible and distinct from each other. Then the mechanics would suddenly become intuitive, despite being exactly the same. Intuitiveness has nothing to do with "simulation vs abstraction", but with managing prior player experience and expectation, and providing hooks to which these can connect.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 01:22:22 PM
Imagine that instead of having just a reduced CR% value, the graphic were made in a way that you could see the combat stresses occurring during battle, and the subsequent failure of on-board equipment and crew. Or that the different drive types (combat/burn) were clearly visible and distinct from each other. Then the mechanics would suddenly become intuitive, despite being exactly the same. Intuitiveness has nothing to do with "simulation vs abstraction", but with managing prior player experience and expectation, and providing hooks to which these can connect.

Yeah, this is a very good point. It'd be nice if it was practical to have distinct visuals for all the various hullmods, too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 04, 2016, 01:42:38 PM
While that's impractical, I think it would be helpful if in-game texts would mention these things more to, if you will, "paint the picture" in the head of the players.
I don't mean tutorial texts, but conversations, fluff texts, mission descriptions and so on. There are already some short stories which helped me visualize mechanics better, but not much in the game. Of course that only really makes sense once the mechanics are finalized.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on December 04, 2016, 02:21:26 PM
...

Not outposts, but there's something in the pipeline as far as the industry aptitude - hopefully it'll pan out, can't wait to talk about it if it does :)

...


* TV intro music plays * Iiiiits Rampant Speculation Time! This weeeeeek: Skills!

New industry skill: Dockyard Graft.
Each rank increases the available black market ships and weapons. Rank 5 unlocks a contact at each station who, when talked to, can offer a high quality hull in addition to what is available in the market.


I am hoping for a skills rework, but it seems that outposts would have to come first/concurrently.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on December 04, 2016, 02:30:35 PM
IMO Combat Readiness i.e. CR is, by its name, self-explanatory enough to make basic assumptions on its behaviour. Peak Performance Time is less intuitive, yes, but related to CR in a way that if you know what CR is, you'll be able to imagine what it's for.

In-combat thruster and In-system Burn being different types of propulsion - aren't any sci-fi "FTL Drive" essentially this?

While that's impractical, I think it would be helpful if in-game texts would mention these things more to, if you will, "paint the picture" in the head of the players.
I don't mean tutorial texts, but conversations, fluff texts, mission descriptions and so on. There are already some short stories which helped me visualize mechanics better, but not much in the game. Of course that only really makes sense once the mechanics are finalized.
Not everyone cares about lore enough to search every flavor text and lore pieces, so I think it is a good approach to do it.
We already have texts appearing around fleets including our own - something like "Burn drive engaged/disengaged" etc. will help I guess.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 04, 2016, 02:45:13 PM
Hey Alex, I've been meaning to ask: How much of a boost is there in combat and what did you do to help speed it up? I know that the UI when displayed has a noticeable effect on low end systems like mine
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: OmegaTech on December 04, 2016, 02:48:12 PM
First time poster, long time lurker...

Just wanted to say that this is amazing work! Great job!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 02:53:32 PM
While that's impractical, I think it would be helpful if in-game texts would mention these things more to, if you will, "paint the picture" in the head of the players.
I don't mean tutorial texts, but conversations, fluff texts, mission descriptions and so on. There are already some short stories which helped me visualize mechanics better, but not much in the game. Of course that only really makes sense once the mechanics are finalized.

Hmm, maybe. That kind of content is really hard, because nothing is ever really "finalized", you know? Even a hypothetical post-1.0 patch could change a hullmod, and having to edit fluff to account for that is problematic.


Hey Alex, I've been meaning to ask: How much of a boost is there in combat and what did you do to help speed it up? I know that the UI when displayed has a noticeable effect on low end systems like mine

It's hard to say exactly - maybe somewhere in the area of 25% faster? Mostly the changes are in-engine, optimizing some common utility methods, some rendering optimizations, some AI optimization, that sort of thing. Nothing UI-specific, but hopefully it'll help by taking some of the load off the rest of it.

Of course, when there's a screenful of fighters, it's probably more accurate to think of these optimizations as "helping keep the old performance" rather than "getting faster".


First time poster, long time lurker...

Just wanted to say that this is amazing work! Great job!

Hi - thank you! Appreciate you de-lurking just to say something nice :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 04, 2016, 03:37:24 PM
Hmm, maybe. That kind of content is really hard, because nothing is ever really "finalized", you know? Even a hypothetical post-1.0 patch could change a hullmod, and having to edit fluff to account for that is problematic.

I was thinking more of the big mechanics that we only get to see at a high abstraction level - CR, Faction Standing, Burndrive, Salvage(?), Sensor profile, Com Relays, Fighter Replacement etc. It would be great if we could have a peek at those things through they eyes of people who interact with them daily on a personal level, instead of only seeing them from far above. I could add plausibility, immersion and make interactions with these systems more intuitive.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Uomoz on December 04, 2016, 04:10:47 PM
SS 2.0! Thanks Alex :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on December 04, 2016, 05:27:38 PM
I was thinking more of the big mechanics that we only get to see at a high abstraction level - CR, Faction Standing, Burndrive, Salvage(?), Sensor profile, Com Relays, Fighter Replacement etc. It would be great if we could have a peek at those things through they eyes of people who interact with them daily on a personal level, instead of only seeing them from far above. I could add plausibility, immersion and make interactions with these systems more intuitive.
I think the weirdest abstraction so far is the way crew losses interacts with fighters, and the non-linear "the more fighters you lose, the less crew you lose per fighter".

You might be able to reverse the wording and present it as "the more fighters you lose, the more fighter escape pods the carrier is able to recover", but that gets weird with the total number of fighters launched (and pods recovered) possibly being larger than crew available. Then again, that case is weird in most presentations.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 05:33:18 PM
I think the weirdest abstraction so far is the way crew losses interacts with fighters, and the non-linear "the more fighters you lose, the less crew you lose per fighter".

The only way you're going to know about that one is from the blog post/comments. In the game, you'll just lose an appropriate-looking amount of crew - more with more fighters lost, but not over the crew on the carrier.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 04, 2016, 05:55:33 PM

EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.

Hopefully!


The quality of work you put out leaves me with faith that the Aggressive AI will be able to differentiate between "It's okay to take some LMG fire to the armor to press the pursuit" and "I'm compelled to keep pushing at 90% flux and get goomba'ed by a single rack of Harpoons".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 06:04:53 PM
And, as you say, if it's not able to, it'll be your own damn fault. But, yes, appreciate the vote of confidence - thank you!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 04, 2016, 06:12:40 PM
And, as you say, if it's not able to, it'll be your own damn fault. But, yes, appreciate the vote of confidence - thank you!

I mean, if I'm trying to tell them it's okay to get the paint scratched and they're hearing "Death before dishonor!" then it's pobably going to be a liability more than a feature and result in a lot of angry new faces in General Discussion, but I think you've earned the benefit of the doubt on AI coding at this point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 06:26:23 PM
From testing so far, it seems most beneficial to use when your forces are stronger than the enemy, though it's not exactly suicidal in an even fight, either. I seem to remember doing some testing with it in an I think 7v7 or 8v8 fight, and the "full assault" side would lose it more often than not, but not by an overwhelming margin. This was a while back, though, so hopefully I'm not misremembering.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 04, 2016, 06:37:07 PM
EDIT:  also really excited to see options to compel aggression out of your officers.  For christ's sake guys, it's okay if the PD dings your armor a little bit, just run down the blasted Tarsus.  Making them become reckless at the player's discretion is also a great workaround for all the issues that normally surround it.  You might lose a ship unnecessarily because you told them to go all-in, but it will feel like the consequence of a decision you made rather than just being punished by AI mistakes you have no real control over.

Hopefully!


Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 04, 2016, 06:42:09 PM
That seams reasonable.  Aggression is risky, and I can tell you that even as a player I still end up reloading saves due to aggressive bravado.  I was mostly just concerned that my frigates would interpret that as orders to play catch with strike weapons or press suicidal engagements, but those seem like the kind of obvious problems you would think of immediately which is why I didn't even mention them in my first post.

I guess I'm just triggered tonight because PGI announced a new game and they're like the Vietnam War of intractable bad ideas.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 04, 2016, 06:59:52 PM
Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes

Timid officers won't. Plus you can engage this piecemeal using the "eliminate" assignment.

That seams reasonable.  Aggression is risky, and I can tell you that even as a player I still end up reloading saves due to aggressive bravado.  I was mostly just concerned that my frigates would interpret that as orders to play catch with strike weapons or press suicidal engagements, but those seem like the kind of obvious problems you would think of immediately which is why I didn't even mention them in my first post.

Well, they're not going to die *on purpose* but they're certainly going to press past the point where it might be wise. The point is to not engage this behavior in situations where it'll end badly; the main use case for it is pursuit, though there are other tactical uses too. But if one were to just use that as the default, one should expect losses.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: torbes on December 04, 2016, 07:09:49 PM
Well, they're not going to die *on purpose* but they're certainly going to press past the point where it might be wise. The point is to not engage this behavior in situations where it'll end badly; the main use case for it is pursuit, though there are other tactical uses too. But if one were to just use that as the default, one should expect losses.

Now I desperately want a mod the plays the old "Leroy Jenkins" yell when an officer decides on reckless behavior.  ;D

Come on Combat Chatter !
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 05, 2016, 01:12:57 PM
So: I get what you're saying, and generally agree with it on a more abstract level. But details, man.

Ok I'll take that. I haven't been able to play for a couple months so I'm not up to date on details. My discussion point about different types of games is a simplification, but it serves as a thought framework for analyzing certain features. Please note, just because starsector has 2d graphics and non-newtonian mechanics doesn't mean it isn't a simulation-- it's a simulation with 2d non-newtonian motion as starting premises from which everything else should follow.

For example all the pre/post combat dialogue box options and what their effects are on CR etc aren't so intuitive, or at least I can never keep them straight. Maybe I'm just a dilettante player and I shouldn't use myself as a metric for what is intuitive, but at that point it feels like I'm playing one of those complicated euro style boardgames where you have to keep a rules card by your side at all times to avoid paralysis.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 05, 2016, 01:16:55 PM
Thought: You mentioned adding in a new officer type that will act reckless no matter what. Are you gonna be changing any of the old officer types to not go reckless when a full assault order is given, unless they're specifically told to? I'd like to have soooome sliver of control over how all-out fleet goes

Timid officers won't. Plus you can engage this piecemeal using the "eliminate" assignment.

No chance of having cautious officers maybe only go up to stable or aggressive and not full reckless? I hate the thought of my light support frigates throwing themselves into the fire just because I want my battleships to go in for the steamroll
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 05, 2016, 01:34:28 PM
SS 2.0! Thanks Alex :)

(Oh, hey, look who's around! :))


Please note, just because starsector has 2d graphics and non-newtonian mechanics doesn't mean it isn't a simulation

Yeah, totally agree. My point is that in part because of these, it's more abstracted. Most games are a simulation, right? Set up the rules, and then watch it go.

(In retrospect, the distinction you're making seems possibly more about real-time vs turn-based rather than simulation vs not.)


For example all the pre/post combat dialogue box options and what their effects are on CR etc aren't so intuitive, or at least I can never keep them straight.

Yeah, that's fair - although iirc as of the last release, those options have been drastically simplified.


No chance of having cautious officers maybe only go up to stable or aggressive and not full reckless? I hate the thought of my light support frigates throwing themselves into the fire just because I want my battleships to go in for the steamroll

In that situation, you'd probably want to order them to retreat first. Or put reckless officers on the battleships. Neither option offers fine-grained control, but then again that's not exactly the goal here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 05, 2016, 01:55:52 PM
Does full assault lock you in like full retreat does? If not then couldn't you just cancel the order
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 05, 2016, 01:57:48 PM
It does not. Cancelling it costs/requires a command point, though turning it on does not.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morgan Rue on December 05, 2016, 02:07:09 PM
Can we get a command to kill a target as fast as possible without caring about efficiency? Will "Eliminate" serve this purpose? I've had some situations where a larger ships will refuse to kill a smaller ship inefficiently by using missiles, even if it is one of the only/few threats remaining. Perhaps this is only an issue with Sabots.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 05, 2016, 10:13:55 PM
could we get a fleet skill that unlocks the ability to toggle full retreat off? For no particular reason, I just like the thought of implementing a huge change in military strategy into the skill tree of a space game.
Also, will the AI implement the Assault Charge?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 05, 2016, 10:21:48 PM
Can we get a command to kill a target as fast as possible without caring about efficiency? Will "Eliminate" serve this purpose? I've had some situations where a larger ships will refuse to kill a smaller ship inefficiently by using missiles, even if it is one of the only/few threats remaining. Perhaps this is only an issue with Sabots.

That's largely the point of Eliminate, but it's not going to affect missile use directly. That, I think, is a degree of direct control I don't want to expose.


Also, will the AI implement the Assault Charge?

Yeah, very much so. Should make a good deal of difference in terms of how easy it is to solo multiple opponents, especially in the moments between when it gives the order and when you realize that it's done that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 06, 2016, 12:55:30 AM
Can we get a command to kill a target as fast as possible without caring about efficiency? Will "Eliminate" serve this purpose? I've had some situations where a larger ships will refuse to kill a smaller ship inefficiently by using missiles, even if it is one of the only/few threats remaining. Perhaps this is only an issue with Sabots.

That's largely the point of Eliminate, but it's not going to affect missile use directly. That, I think, is a degree of direct control I don't want to expose.


Also, will the AI implement the Assault Charge?

Yeah, very much so. Should make a good deal of difference in terms of how easy it is to solo multiple opponents, especially in the moments between when it gives the order and when you realize that it's done that.

Will the AI be aware of the limitations of the personalities of the officers in its fleet and if its remaining fleet has too many cautious officers to effectively take down, say, a solo ship player, would they be more likely to trigger full assault mode than if they were to be fielding a fleet of ships that necessarily wouldn't need it? I guess my question is, at the first pass how dynamic are we expecting AI use of FA to be?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 06, 2016, 02:38:58 AM
Campaign
  • Deep hyperspace now functions similarly to nebula (slows down smaller fleets, fleets inside are less visible)
    • The slow-down effect is up to 30% (vs 50% for nebula)
When I first tried out the game I actually though that is how deep hyperspace worked because it literally looks like a nebula. I was pleasantly surprised later when I found out that deep hyperspace doesn't slow you down, only the storms do, so if you were an experienced player you should weave through deep hyperspace while avoiding the storms by seeing the storms build up. I though it was kinda cool that based on "skill" players could take shortcuts and have a faster time moving though.
With this change though I imagine the navigator perk becomes more useful. But yeah mixed feelings on this.

  • Added new ability: "Sustained Burn"
    • Increases maximum burn by 10
    • Reduces acceleration and sensor range, increases range at which fleet is detected
    • Activation results in fleet slowing down and stopping before sustained drive mode is engaged
    • Intended for long-range travel while creating a vulnerability if hostile fleets are around
This is something I am rather excited for since I always loved the feeling of "warp drive" powering up before moving through space at massive speed. Will it be something similar to this? https://youtu.be/2sCvIkNRV1o?t=7
By that I mean that I just hope you give it some visual and possibly audio difference between normal traveling and normal burn drive, so it both looks, sounds and feels different "less burn and more warp" so to speak, which I imagine would both help with "why do the ships need to stop before using this system" question as the ships are using a different system to travel.

  • Odyssey, Conquest: increased burn level by 1
Neat, with all of the speed nerfs, will conquest get some additional love in the speed department, or is it just me that wants a very fast but frail capital ship compared to the others.

Combat
  • Thumper: now fires 1-second burst of 20 shots (100 frag damage each), 3 second delay between bursts
I have never found a use for the thumper,what exactly is it supposed to be good for? Rare cases where you have a ship with exposed hull and no shields? But that assumes a crushing winning position anyway, aren't win more weapons kinda useless? (or is it against fighters? But PD and flak are more versatile in that regard)

Lastly is there any estimates you can give on when this version will be released? I don't expect a concrete date but I imagine you know if it will take 6 months or 3 months, or 2 or 1...I am not asking for a promise, just an estimate.[/list][/list][/list][/list]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on December 06, 2016, 03:10:00 AM
Almost all of these questions have been already answered.  ???


>Rig
Quote
Yeah, I'm not sure this will stay in actually. It has some other problems - it's either always worth it to deploy the rig, or always not, depending on the battle size.

>Speed
There's Safeties Override and some hints about rare drop high tier hullmods to find.

>Break
Quote
When a ship is disabled, there's a chance this will happen. The chance and min/max number of pieces are set per-ship in ship_data.csv. On average, the chance is around 50%.
Ships that break up won't be available for boarding. For salvage, "destroyed" ships will contribute more than they do now, probably about the same as "disabled".

>Crew
Quote
Yeah, but man does it make so many things on the backend *so* much easier and less bug-prone. Even if this was a subtraction in terms of gameplay (which I don't think it is - it feels cleaner now), it would still be 100% worth it just for how much it makes any related code easier, and for how many more crew-related mechanics are in the game as a result.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 06, 2016, 03:20:15 AM
My bad, cleaned it up a bit.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 06, 2016, 05:53:20 AM
Quote
I have never found a use for the thumper,what exactly is it supposed to be good for? Rare cases where you have a ship with exposed hull and no shields? But that assumes a crushing winning position anyway, aren't win more weapons kinda useless? (or is it against fighters? But PD and flak are more versatile in that regard)
Thumper's problems are numerous.  It has slow windup like Storm Needler and it has relatively short shot range for a ballistic.  If you did not mind fragmentation damage type, Vulcan or Dual Flak were still better.  Vulcan costs less OP for roughly the same DPS, only downside was shorter range (but Vulcan is easier to use than Thumper).  Dual Flak has comparable DPS with area-of-effect to hit more than one target, and is the best PD in the game.  I even prefer single Flak to Thumper, despite less DPS.  Thumper is so bad that it is useless for the player.  If it was designed to be a useless (D) weapon for NPC pirate (D) ships to use, it does that job well.  However, even similarly cheap stuff like Arbalest and Hellbore are effective.  (Too effective for its cost in case of Hellbore.)  Thumper is not.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on December 06, 2016, 06:14:43 AM
The new Thumper looks interesting on paper - 2000 damage in a quick burst is pretty nasty and I can imagine sneaking it into a venting or flanked enemy for a surprise kill. Then again, each burst is only 100 frag, or 25 vs armor, and with the new minimum of 5% armor, that means the Thumper's damage output is always going to be significantly less than 2000 per burst.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 06, 2016, 10:52:21 AM
Will the AI be aware of the limitations of the personalities of the officers in its fleet and if its remaining fleet has too many cautious officers to effectively take down, say, a solo ship player, would they be more likely to trigger full assault mode than if they were to be fielding a fleet of ships that necessarily wouldn't need it? I guess my question is, at the first pass how dynamic are we expecting AI use of FA to be?

I don't honestly remember all the details right now. It's probably not going to be super nuanced about it, though - it's the sort of thing where the nuance seems like it'd be impossible to appreciate or even notice.


When I first tried out the game I actually though that is how deep hyperspace worked because it literally looks like a nebula. I was pleasantly surprised later when I found out that deep hyperspace doesn't slow you down, only the storms do, so if you were an experienced player you should weave through deep hyperspace while avoiding the storms by seeing the storms build up. I though it was kinda cool that based on "skill" players could take shortcuts and have a faster time moving though.
With this change though I imagine the navigator perk becomes more useful. But yeah mixed feelings on this.

Yeah, this pretty much covers it. Made the change because of how confusing it is because it looks like a nebula, but, yes, gameplay-wise it's potentially more desireable to have it function as it does in the current version. However, with the movement penalty in it capping out at 30% (vs 50% for nebula), it's still workable, and it gives a different reason to move through clear areas, so I'm hopeful it'll work out.


I have never found a use for the thumper,what exactly is it supposed to be good for? Rare cases where you have a ship with exposed hull and no shields? But that assumes a crushing winning position anyway, aren't win more weapons kinda useless? (or is it against fighters? But PD and flak are more versatile in that regard)

It's not supposed to be good, more of a weapon you use when you don't have anything better, and it's also cheap.

I do think it gets too much of a bad reputation, though - it's surprisingly flux-efficient in chewing through shields, and can do a good job with just a bit of HE mixed in to do the initial armor-breaking. It can work well on an Enforcer with SO, for example, or some such. Again, not saying it's *good*.

The new version is meant to generally remain bad while having situational usefulness and also creating a more interesting threat when you're the one facing it. Stop paying attention, and a well-aimed Thumper burst can end your day if you're flying a frigate.


Lastly is there any estimates you can give on when this version will be released? I don't expect a concrete date but I imagine you know if it will take 6 months or 3 months, or 2 or 1...I am not asking for a promise, just an estimate.[/list][/list][/list][/list]

:-X
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on December 06, 2016, 11:33:50 AM
Yes!! Some notes!! "And it was my best...day...EVER!" (R.I.P Nappa)

I'm glad to see hullmods are now properly like ship upgrades that can be bought and looted! Could really give exploration a shot in the arm alongside the expanded map and salvage mechanics with some special rare hullmods in the future!

The A.I changes sound great! I hope the "Eliminate" command works well when the attacking ships are under fighter and drone pressure. It will be needed with the fighter changes. Ideally, since in the blog post on fighters you had commented that fighters inherently need to be weak to avoid balance issues with carriers, ships targeting a carrier with the "Eliminate" command should ignore its fighter attacks completely with the intent on closing the distance as quickly as possible since fighters are unlimited in the long run. Otherwise, I am worried game play will bog down again because ships spend too much time trying to thin the fighter herd to lower the fighter replacement bar than actually kill the source of the threat itself. For some carriers that could be effective, sure, but for others that can replace fighters more quickly for a longer period of time not so much.

Also loving the codex hint  8)
+1 to the Discover hint!

I am also pleased by the flux vent spam nerf. It was too abusable. Is the A.I aware of this penalty too? Not as much of an issue usually, but it would occasionally come up where I see the A.I vent spam.

With the world so big now, have you done anything to address fuel and supply prices accordingly? I actually kind of felt that they were a tad high before. With things so much bigger I feel I will go bankrupt trying to travel :D

Great work on this update, I see a lot of things really coming together nicely! I think I say this almost every time but this is my most anticipated release ever!

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: facc00 on December 07, 2016, 07:43:49 AM
Thanks for the continued work!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 07, 2016, 10:20:24 AM
Alex, could you please share Heavy Mortar stats with us? Damage/flux per shot and OP cost?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 07, 2016, 10:43:38 AM
The A.I changes sound great! I hope the "Eliminate" command works well when the attacking ships are under fighter and drone pressure. It will be needed with the fighter changes. Ideally, since in the blog post on fighters you had commented that fighters inherently need to be weak to avoid balance issues with carriers, ships targeting a carrier with the "Eliminate" command should ignore its fighter attacks completely with the intent on closing the distance as quickly as possible since fighters are unlimited in the long run. Otherwise, I am worried game play will bog down again because ships spend too much time trying to thin the fighter herd to lower the fighter replacement bar than actually kill the source of the threat itself. For some carriers that could be effective, sure, but for others that can replace fighters more quickly for a longer period of time not so much.

Yeah, actually. One of the properties of "reckless" behavior is ignoring whether you're being flanked or not, which will make ships stop maneuvering to avoid the fighters and they'll just plow through. They'll still try to avoid bombs/torpedoes launched by said fighters, though.


I am also pleased by the flux vent spam nerf. It was too abusable. Is the A.I aware of this penalty too? Not as much of an issue usually, but it would occasionally come up where I see the A.I vent spam.

The AI iirc isn't aware of it but then it basically doesn't vent-spam to that degree anyway, so I don't think it'll affect it much except for, say, the Mudskipper Mk.II armed with a Gauss Cannon. And I'm ok with that being sub-optimal :)

With the world so big now, have you done anything to address fuel and supply prices accordingly? I actually kind of felt that they were a tad high before. With things so much bigger I feel I will go bankrupt trying to travel :D

I haven't actually done a whole lot of testing here, so: not at this point. I actually like the idea of travel costs being high so that just going somewhere is a risk or at least an investement, but of course the rewards have to be balanced accordingly as well.


Great work on this update, I see a lot of things really coming together nicely! I think I say this almost every time but this is my most anticipated release ever!

Thank you!


Thanks for the continued work!

Thanks for the continued support :)


Alex, could you please share Heavy Mortar stats with us? Damage/flux per shot and OP cost?

700 range, 110 damage for 90 flux, 2 shots per second average (in 2-shot bursts), 7 OP, and the same anemic shot speed as the light mortar (500).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on December 07, 2016, 11:18:24 AM
Well the problem is not so much it is a * bad*  weapon. Thumper that is. It's more a budget weapon.

But there are two problems.
1. There are small mount weapons that perform way better for cheaper.
2. There are no expendible ships that can use medium mount other than the hound and Cerberus. But these ships because of shield problem are best fitted with flux intensive weapons.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 07, 2016, 11:33:33 AM
it's bad insofar as

1. it takes a weapon slot you can use for something else
2. other weapons are readily available

if there was a subclass of weapons that were deliberately bad (well, past like the 2 others that are) it would be fine, but as it is it's kind of just garbage no one uses because better things are always available.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on December 07, 2016, 12:05:07 PM
Hey Alex,

What about adding an option to observe ongoing fights without necessarily joining in? Could help the galaxy feel more alive and I don't imagine it would need *too* much adjustment behind the scenes.

Would also be a nice way to see the ships in action from time to time without worrying about your own losses.

Just a random thought! Really looking forward to 0.8 :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 07, 2016, 12:29:04 PM
I actually like the idea of travel costs being high so that just going somewhere is a risk or at least an investement, but of course the rewards have to be balanced accordingly as well.

I was thinking, maybe it would be nice to have a good chunk of missions/bounties which take place locally, as opposed to sector-wide ones. Then you'd have the chance to accumulate wealth and ressources in preparation for far jouneys, which could be really expensive and relatively rare and special events.

"Locally" could mean the current system, or the current constellations, depending on what that means. What defines a constellation?


What about adding an option to observe ongoing fights without necessarily joining in? Could help the galaxy feel more alive and I don't imagine it would need *too* much adjustment behind the scenes.

Would also be a nice way to see the ships in action from time to time without worrying about your own losses.

I guess you could just deploy a shuttle or something and park it in a corner to observe a fight AI vs AI.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 07, 2016, 12:42:37 PM
There are sub-optimal, then there are stuff so bad that you do not want to use it unless you literally have no other option.  Arbalest is cheap and sub-optimal, but not useless.  My ships sometimes use Arbalest as a railgun substitute when OP is scarce.  Thumper is the only weapon that is so bad that it is useless for the player (but it is great for lowering difficulty of enemy ships that use it instead of better weapons).  Mining Laser and Mortar are so underpowered as to be almost useless, but at least they are extremely cheap, and you get what you pay for.  Thumper, I get better results installing Vulcan in a medium ballistic mount, due to ease-of-use and saving OP for more stuff.  If OP is not a problem, then dual flak is a much better combo PD/finisher fragmentation weapon.  The only other weapons close to uselessness is LR PD laser (higher OP cost than PD laser; higher flux cost than Tac Laser, when some ships already have trouble dealing with Tac Laser costs) and Proximity Charge Launcher (too hard to use, costs more OP than other medium missiles, but not as effective).  Even those two have some use.

Re: Heavy Mortar.
Quote from: Alex
700 range, 110 damage for 90 flux, 2 shots per second average (in 2-shot bursts), 7 OP, and the same anemic shot speed as the light mortar (500).
Seems like the only reason to take this over LAG is shot range, which is a big deal admittedly.  Matching range with Arbalest (and Railgun) means they probably compliment each other, good for Enforcer and Hammerhead.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 07, 2016, 01:06:48 PM
What about adding an option to observe ongoing fights without necessarily joining in? Could help the galaxy feel more alive and I don't imagine it would need *too* much adjustment behind the scenes.

Would also be a nice way to see the ships in action from time to time without worrying about your own losses.

Just a random thought! Really looking forward to 0.8 :)

That's pretty neat! A bit too gratuitous, probably, but still neat.

Plus combat really works a lot better when one of the ships and sides is player-controlled; it's really built with that in mind. You'd likely see some odd behavior from the AI etc if this isn't the case.


I was thinking, maybe it would be nice to have a good chunk of missions/bounties which take place locally, as opposed to sector-wide ones. Then you'd have the chance to accumulate wealth and ressources in preparation for far jouneys, which could be really expensive and relatively rare and special events.

"Locally" could mean the current system, or the current constellations, depending on what that means. What defines a constellation?

I guess it depends on what you mean by "locally" - the core worlds are in the middle of the Sector, so a lot of stuff will naturally be local to that relatively small area. I'd like expeditions outside that to really have more of an expedition feel, but I guess we'll have to see how it pans out. It's hard to talk about it without enough playtesting, of which there hasn't been much here. Need to get more exploration content in, some more REDACTED stuff, and then really take if for a spin, see how everything feels, and adjust accordingly.


Seems like the only reason to take this over LAG is shot range, which is a big deal admittedly.  Matching range with Arbalest (and Railgun) means they probably compliment each other, good for Enforcer and Hammerhead.

it's got 220 dps (vs 160) and almost triple the per-shot damage, as well as considerably better flux efficiency, so it seems a pretty clear winner unless you want to shoot down fighters (in which case flak) or OPs are very tight. And then there's the range, as you say.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on December 07, 2016, 01:11:16 PM
Quote from: Alex
700 range, 110 damage for 90 flux, 2 shots per second average (in 2-shot bursts), 7 OP, and the same anemic shot speed as the light mortar (500).
Seems like the only reason to take this over LAG is shot range, which is a big deal admittedly.  Matching range with Arbalest (and Railgun) means they probably compliment each other, good for Enforcer and Hammerhead.

Much higher damage per shot as well (110 vs 40), which is pretty big deal for HE weapons. But yeah, this is going to be an Arbalest bis. On the bright side it won't have to compete with a HE-Railgun like its kinetic sibling to find its niche.

Edit : Goddangit you ninja!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 07, 2016, 01:12:18 PM
110 damage per shot, not DPS?  I thought you meant 110 DPS, but if it is 200+ DPS, well then, yes, Heavy Mortar is better.  At least there is a halfway option between LAG and Heavy Mauler.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SeinTa on December 07, 2016, 03:14:54 PM
Maybe I missed it and just can't find it, but how will Sector Age affect the game?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on December 07, 2016, 03:20:02 PM
Maybe I missed it and just can't find it, but how will Sector Age affect the game?
It controls the colors of the stars and the types of planets and terrain IIRC
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 07, 2016, 09:57:21 PM
All hail the arrival of the long-awaited Generic HE Medium Ballistic!

Because they can't all be Heavy Maulers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on December 08, 2016, 04:32:31 AM
Yeah I'm really glad to see the arrival of the Heavy Mortar. And the new Thumper is more interesting.

I also think it's good that range and speed has turned into more of a dichotomy - coupled with the ability to make your fleet zero in on targets reliably, perhaps this will finally open up for fleets of close-range striky killers not being flat out worse than a fleet of bricks with range.

It would actually be fun to have a worse, but cheaper ITU available for cap ship purposes, as a modspec drop. "Mark I Targeting Module" or whatever. I think the modspec system is a good opportunity to open up for niche, fine-grained ship customization options. Hell, you could even go full Diablo and procedurally generate hullmods that drop from mysterious REDACTED targets or whatever.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 08, 2016, 05:06:51 AM
It would actually be fun to have a worse, but cheaper ITU available for cap ship purposes, as a modspec drop. "Mark I Targeting Module" or whatever. I think the modspec system is a good opportunity to open up for niche, fine-grained ship customization options. Hell, you could even go full Diablo and procedurally generate hullmods that drop from mysterious REDACTED targets or whatever.
Hopefully, not one that yields one or two god-tier options that everyone would cheat and dupe for if Starsector was online multiplayer and the rest crap.  Diablo-style item generation is great if you want players to be hooked and focus mostly on items and min-maxing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on December 08, 2016, 05:35:47 AM
Yeah, which is why the idea is niche sidegrade options for more customization.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on December 08, 2016, 07:33:00 AM
If the venting nerf was added because players were abusing it wouldn't it be better to nerf the spam rather than to nerf venting itself?

Something simple like if you vent once it's business as usual, but if you vent within a certain period of the last vent (10/15 seconds?) you'll get the penalty. You can even stack that up if you want to really punish players for being reckless with it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on December 08, 2016, 01:04:20 PM
I wonder if the range penalty for unstable injector maybe should scale a bit with size class? When I think about it, it seems like it will be a nerf to frigates that want to use energy weapons and still go fast. It shouldn't be a no-brainer but flat 25% seems more punishing for frigates than it needs to be.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 08, 2016, 01:29:47 PM
If the venting nerf was added because players were abusing it wouldn't it be better to nerf the spam rather than to nerf venting itself?

Something simple like if you vent once it's business as usual, but if you vent within a certain period of the last vent (10/15 seconds?) you'll get the penalty. You can even stack that up if you want to really punish players for being reckless with it.

It's not much of a nerf to venting unless one is venting at very low flux, but then that's the point. I get what you're saying, and did think about other ways to do this, but this way seems simplest. The nice thing is no extra UI required - you just see the reload bars stop moving for a few seconds, and it makes sense. Something like "X seconds since last vent" would require more UI, and adding extra UI elements for this definitely seems like too much.


I wonder if the range penalty for unstable injector maybe should scale a bit with size class? When I think about it, it seems like it will be a nerf to frigates that want to use energy weapons and still go fast. It shouldn't be a no-brainer but flat 25% seems more punishing for frigates than it needs to be.

Hmm - going to playtest that some and see. It needs to be enough that it's not an obvious choice for a kiting setup, which 25% feels pretty good for - doable with beams, unlikely with anything else. But, again, definitely need to playtest and see what low-range stuff feels like when it's down by 25%.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on December 08, 2016, 03:02:46 PM
Then why not just add an line or extra transparent layer to the flux bar or something similar that says "ready to vent" and vent is on something like 3 second cool down.

Otherwise maybe just have the whole ui flicker off and then off then on when venting, to visualize flux systems turning off and on.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 08, 2016, 04:02:26 PM
Is the Devastator Cannon indeed a fragmentation damage type weapon? Do you have any special intents for fragmentation damage going forward or just thought that a large mount frag damage weapon was a niche that needed filling?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 08, 2016, 06:48:20 PM
I wonder if the range penalty for unstable injector maybe should scale a bit with size class? When I think about it, it seems like it will be a nerf to frigates that want to use energy weapons and still go fast. It shouldn't be a no-brainer but flat 25% seems more punishing for frigates than it needs to be.
I am concerned about this for the Wolf.  Wolf without engine upgrade is too slow against its competitors, but if its range with pulse laser/heavy blaster gets gutted to 450-ish with an engine upgrade (that I should use Safety Override to try to compete with Lasher), then there may be no point to use it.  Its attack range will be so short that I might as well use Lasher instead.  (If I use all-beams instead, then Wolf gets hard-countered by anything with shields, which is nearly everything past early-game pirates).  Lasher can outshoot small stuff in close range and win the flux war.  The Wolf cannot with flux-hungry laser/blaster or beams only.

Other high-tech ships may be fine without Unstable Injector.  Tempest is probably fast enough, and the likes of Hyperion and Scarab have powerful systems.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TaLaR on December 08, 2016, 08:14:18 PM
+1 to Megas here. Frigates, especially ones with low base speed, benefited the most from accessible speed hullmods (since they scale with reverse size).

This seriously limits usability of slower frigates (around 100 speed), unless pigeonholing them into Safety Override builds is intended.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on December 08, 2016, 09:57:54 PM
Frigates won't be able to kite as much, but imo thats not a bad thing. Its kind of silly that the player frigates are automatically 40+ speed faster than the AI (because its a mandatory hullmod the AI doesn't use very much). I do agree that the Wolf is undergunned when it comes to cracking shields, but its mobility system is rather powerful on defense.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 09, 2016, 06:29:12 AM
The thing about Wolf:  It is not much faster than Lasher.  It is slower than Lasher, and possibly other frigates, that are equipped with an engine hullmod if Wolf is not similarly equipped.  Because it relies solely on Pulse Laser or a blaster to crack shields, and those weapons are flux hungry and do less damage to shields than kinetics, it will lose the flux war unless it can kite.  As for small mounts, it needs at least two, preferably all three, for PD.

Its phase skimmer is its only consolation ever since it lost its Omni shield.  The change to front shield has hurt its defenses.  Skimmer will not help much if it is forced to fight within range of enemy ballistics, because ballistics (if favoring kinetics) almost always wins.

Wolf is fairly expensive to deploy, and they do not clean up pursuit as efficiently as a Lasher or superior high-tech frigates.

The easiest solution, without changing weapon balance or ship systems, is to change Wolf's missile hardpoints to composites.  That way, it can fight kinetics with kinetics, much like Medusa can, so that it is not dead meat as soon as a ballistic bruiser comes in range.  EDIT:  Or change shield efficiency from 0.8 to 0.6, so its shield can take a beating from machine gun or autocannon fire?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on December 09, 2016, 09:43:45 AM
The thing about Wolf:  It is not much faster than Lasher.  It is slower than Lasher, and possibly other frigates, that are equipped with an engine hullmod if Wolf is not similarly equipped.  Because it relies solely on Pulse Laser or a blaster to crack shields, and those weapons are flux hungry and do less damage to shields than kinetics, it will lose the flux war unless it can kite.  As for small mounts, it needs at least two, preferably all three, for PD.

Its phase skimmer is its only consolation ever since it lost its Omni shield.  The change to front shield has hurt its defenses.  Skimmer will not help much if it is forced to fight within range of enemy ballistics, because ballistics (if favoring kinetics) almost always wins.

Wolf is fairly expensive to deploy, and they do not clean up pursuit as efficiently as a Lasher or superior high-tech frigates.

The easiest solution, without changing weapon balance or ship systems, is to change Wolf's missile hardpoints to composites.  That way, it can fight kinetics with kinetics, much like Medusa can, so that it is not dead meat as soon as a ballistic bruiser comes in range.  EDIT:  Or change shield efficiency from 0.8 to 0.6, so its shield can take a beating from machine gun or autocannon fire?

I like the idea of changing the missile hardpoint to composite .. use ballistic early in game and later on, when you want to use the wolf as a more defensive support ship with its missiles back in place.
or the 2 small energy ( left & right , not center ) could be changed to ?hybrid? [Ballistic/Energy]

And btw : t I think we are getting of topic  :-X
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 09, 2016, 10:07:44 AM
It would not be a good idea to change Wolf's small energy to hybrid.  At that point, Vulcan becomes a no-brainer to install for PD.  Same OP cost as PD laser, but much more effective for anti-missile.  That or install some Light Needlers to kite with.  I probably would use Advanced Optics boosted Phase Lance, Light Needler, and two Vulcans.

Most energy weapons that do not have special properties like EMP are simply inferior to ballistics.  With vent delay killing vent spam, blasters may not be so good anymore, because they are usually at their best when they can be vent spammed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 09, 2016, 10:40:05 AM
Then why not just add an line or extra transparent layer to the flux bar or something similar that says "ready to vent" and vent is on something like 3 second cool down.

Otherwise maybe just have the whole ui flicker off and then off then on when venting, to visualize flux systems turning off and on.

Again, more UI elements and more complicated. Not saying you couldn't make that work (aside from the whole UI flickering, that seems like a lot of overkill), but the "pause weapon reload for 2 seconds" also works and is nice and simple.

Taking a step back: what's the goal of making the change you're suggesting vs the one I made? That's probably good to establish.


Is the Devastator Cannon indeed a fragmentation damage type weapon? Do you have any special intents for fragmentation damage going forward or just thought that a large mount frag damage weapon was a niche that needed filling?

It's HE.


Regarding the Wolf:
What exactly should we expect out of it? It's still more than capable of beating an AI-controlled Lasher in the player's hands, without skills involved on either side, even when the Lasher is armed with kinetics. For me, that's a much easier and faster fight than the reverse; even with UI the Lasher is only 10 units faster than the Wolf, which isn't enough to make up for the phase skimmer. It's also a decent support ship when equipped with beams and missiles.

If anything, this seems like it might be back to working more-as-intended. The Wolf can dictate the engagement vs a Lasher, but requires more finessing - whether in managing flux or in attacking at the right time, when more than two ships are involved - to actually come out on top. The UI change should help high-tech ships by making their speed advantage mean more.

(Side note: Swarmers seem great on an early-game Wolf. Flux-free damage, accurate vs frigates, keep the pressure on while out of range, good enough ammo to handle several enemy frigates.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 09, 2016, 11:35:01 AM
wolf is fine, it just has the problem that every other frigate also does wherein flanking with it is marginally impossible because of the turn speed of heavier ships.

frigates can't realistically position themselves to the rear of the enemy, due to inability to deal with the firepower on the way, and they can't realistically punch through the front of something due to range/longevity problems.

i don't know if that's really a bad thing though, and that of course excludes phase/teleport frigates which are still pretty absurd
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 09, 2016, 03:25:45 PM
Regarding the Wolf:
What exactly should we expect out of it?
Blue death!  Maybe Tempest-lite.  More seriously, something that can compete with Lasher much like Medusa competes with Enforcer, and Paragon with Onslaught.  (For cruisers, current Aurora is a joke ship while Dominator is top-tier.)  Since it costs as much CR to deploy as Tempest, I expect Wolf to outperform Lasher a bit, but it only shines when a group of them can surround a target and tear it apart.  Mass Wolf pack used to be feasible for the player during 0.65, but the 25 ship limit and possibly addition of officers (for the enemy) made that sub-optimal for the player.  AI can still bring huge numbers to bear against the player, but player cannot do that to the extent possible in 0.65.

When I first played Wolf in 0.53, before CR and peak performance, I would use the starter (graviton and tac laser) beam Wolf, and kite until beams slowly overload then kill ships.  That is not very effective in today's world of timers.  More recent versions, like during 0.65, my Wolf would use pulse laser or heavy blaster, slowly chip shields with hard flux until ship is forced to lower shield.  If I stray too close to the enemy ship, and it has LMGs or autocannons, it would shoot and hit my shield for hard flux faster than I can do to the enemy.  If the enemy has assault guns or chaingun, it is not so bad.

For missiles, I use the starter Harpoons until I get Salamanders (from loot or pirates' black market).

At endgame, I use frigates (aside from Hyperion) as cheap pursuit/clean-up option.  Lasher has the best blend of low cost and high firepower.  Tempest, Scarab, and phase ships are more useful if the enemy is too fast or too numerous.  (If enemy is still capable of significant resistance, better to auto-resolve for the no-risk option.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 09, 2016, 04:01:51 PM
love the patch notes!   :)

a little concerned at the removal of carrier rally though. i know about the fighter changes and all...  i just like how carrier rally points create organic objectives in combat, as opposed to the artificial objectives of the beacons.

I am curious @Alex if any inspiration has been taken from other recent work in the genre, like SPAZ 2 or Wayward Terran Frontier.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 09, 2016, 04:14:25 PM
Devastator Cannon is HE, huh? Well geez, we've got 3 large mount ballistics all sporting HE damage now—Hellbore, Hephaestus Assault and now this! Wasn't the consensus saying the Hephaestus was kinda underpowered and could use some help?

Do the shots fired by the Devastator have an AoE effect, is it still a burst fire weapon?

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 09, 2016, 05:16:14 PM
HAG is just a bit overpriced compared to Hellbore.  Cheaper OP cost is usually the reason why (I) to choose Hellbore over HAG.  Hellbore is burst damage, and happens to be vent spam friendly, the latter of which may be abolished.  The main thing going for HAG is rapid-fire if your other weapons are slow-firing, like HVD.

If anything, I think Hellbore may be undervalued (although I sure enjoy how cheap it is - lets me equip more stuff).  Probably should cost at least as much as Mark IX.

Heavy ballistics have three kinetics too, but then again, it does not matter - Mjolnir is the one all-powerful heavy ballistic to rule them all.

EDIT:  If Hellbore is meant to be the super-heavy version of Light and (new) Heavy Mortar, maybe its range could be downgraded to 800, since the other mortars have less range than more expensive assault weapons?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on December 09, 2016, 05:31:33 PM
seconding what megas said about the wolf, I think

when you see a medusa, you don't think of it on equal terms as say an enforcer or a hammerhead; when you see a paragon, you DEFINITELY don't think of it on equal terms as say an onslaught or a conquest. Now, the Aurora is in a bit of a tough spot, but even now I think it's more challenging than an eagle or a dominator.

The wolf, however, for me is almost equivalent to a lasher in combat considerations...

Now, of course, that could be working as intended, but it is a bit of a jarring departure
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 09, 2016, 05:34:26 PM
I never really thought of the wolf as being medusa or paragon level technology. There's at least 3 higher tech frigates after all.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 09, 2016, 05:44:54 PM
wolf is fine, it just has the problem that every other frigate also does wherein flanking with it is marginally impossible because of the turn speed of heavier ships.

Yeah, that's going to get dialed back.


Blue death!  Maybe Tempest-lite.  More seriously, something that can compete with Lasher much like Medusa competes with Enforcer, and Paragon with Onslaught.  (For cruisers, current Aurora is a joke ship while Dominator is top-tier.)  Since it costs as much CR to deploy as Tempest, I expect Wolf to outperform Lasher a bit, but it only shines when a group of them can surround a target and tear it apart.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. It's a good support ship, the question is whether multiple-ship-deployments will be efficient enough to make it shine. I think they will be, for REDACTED reasons.

At endgame, I use frigates (aside from Hyperion) as cheap pursuit/clean-up option.  Lasher has the best blend of low cost and high firepower.  Tempest, Scarab, and phase ships are more useful if the enemy is too fast or too numerous.  (If enemy is still capable of significant resistance, better to auto-resolve for the no-risk option.)

I think a UI Wolf would make a decent pursuit ship, certainly a lot faster than a UI Lasher for only 1 extra supply. Firepower's not the same, though.


a little concerned at the removal of carrier rally though. i know about the fighter changes and all...  i just like how carrier rally points create organic objectives in combat, as opposed to the artificial objectives of the beacons.

Yeah, but it just doesn't make sense anymore. You don't want to just park your carriers somewhere out of the way anymore.

I am curious @Alex if any inspiration has been taken from other recent work in the genre, like SPAZ 2 or Wayward Terran Frontier.

Well, I haven't played either one of those... :)


Devastator Cannon is HE, huh? Well geez, we've got 3 large mount ballistics all sporting HE damage now—Hellbore, Hephaestus Assault and now this! Wasn't the consensus saying the Hephaestus was kinda underpowered and could use some help?

I might look at it at some point, yeah. No comment until that point.


EDIT:  If Hellbore is meant to be the super-heavy version of Light and (new) Heavy Mortar, maybe its range could be downgraded to 800, since the other mortars have less range than more expensive assault weapons?

Hmm. Maybe, yeah. I've got a TODO item to look at it; iirc what I was considering is decreasing the rate of fire, so that it's still the king of 1-shot damage, but not so hot as far as the overall dps.


Do the shots fired by the Devastator have an AoE effect, is it still a burst fire weapon?

Yeah, they do. It's a large, rapid-fire burst of shells that both have a proximity fuse and a variable range, so firing it will cover a large swath in explosions. Mostly anti-frigate, fighter, and missile; can get around shields sometimes by flying by and exploding out of arc. Cheap in terms of flux for the dps that it does (and also lower flux per second than most alternatives), but it's virtually impossible to land all the damage on any one target.


The wolf, however, for me is almost equivalent to a lasher in combat considerations...

Well, it only costs 1 more unit of supplies to deploy, so it's definitely not Medusa-level. It's much more "workhorse" than "outlier", which, granted, the high-tech ships tend to be but they by no means have to be that.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 09, 2016, 06:02:38 PM
@ gunnyfreak: Actually, I think Medusa and Enforcer, and Paragon and Onslaught, are roughly equal, just different.  Hammerhead is just an inferior Enforcer knock-off which, hopefully, the next release will fix (+5 OP and no additional flux cost for ammo feeder).  As for Wolf vs. Lasher, Wolf is a bit easier to use (as long as speed hullmods do not mess with shot range), but may not perform as efficiently as Lasher despite being more expensive.  Wolf used to have Omni shields and cost a bit less CR to deploy than Tempest.  Now, Wolf is a bit expensive to use.  Overall, I think Wolf is a bit inferior to Lasher overall, and is completely outclassed by Tempest except for cargo capacity.  I simply fear that if Wolf is forced to use new Unstable Injector to keep up with other frigates that use Unstable Injector (I will probably still use Unstable Injector for Lasher and other ballistic reliant frigates), then Wolf will have no better range than Safety Override builds, and (I guess) no frigate can beat a Lasher with an active ammo feeder.

Quote from: Alex
I think a UI Wolf would make a decent pursuit ship, certainly a lot faster than a UI Lasher for only 1 extra supply. Firepower's not the same, though.
It's the firepower and flux usage.  Lasher can use ammo feeder and flux efficient LMGs (and more) to make shields disappear fast.  Annihilators and LAG break armor, then Vulcans and more LMGs tear through hull faster.  Lasher is a monster for its size at clean-up.  When I try Wolf, I vent-spam a heavy blaster for the most power, and the rest of the weapons have far less DPS than Vulcans.  It takes a while to chew through shields and the rest with just one heavy blaster, especially if I miss, with beams doing insignificant damage.  My Wolf needs to vent (no Safety Override) often due to flux-hungry weapons.  In short, Lasher has much more firepower than Wolf.  This is also why I use Lasher instead of a Hound or Kite, which are cheaper and have more top speed.

P.S.  With Lasher, Safety Override (plus engine hullmod) is great!  More speed, and among LMGs, LAG, Vulcans, and missiles, only LAG is affected, and the LAG is used as a backup when Annihilators are not enough.  For Wolf with Heavy Blaster, it needs to vent spam constantly, and Safety Override prevents venting!  SO also cuts Heavy Blaster range.  Wolf that relies on a medium energy weapon for most of its damage should not use Safety Override, especially if it can dissipate flux faster by venting than with Safety Override.  Lasher with Safety Override may have more top speed than Wolf without SO.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 10, 2016, 07:27:22 AM
  • Added new ability: "Sustained Burn"
    • Increases maximum burn by 10
    • Reduces acceleration and sensor range, increases range at which fleet is detected
    • Activation results in fleet slowing down and stopping before sustained drive mode is engaged
    • Intended for long-range travel while creating a vulnerability if hostile fleets are around
This is something I am rather excited for since I always loved the feeling of "warp drive" powering up before moving through space at massive speed. Will it be something similar to this? https://youtu.be/2sCvIkNRV1o?t=7
By that I mean that I just hope you give it some visual and possibly audio difference between normal traveling and normal burn drive, so it both looks, sounds and feels different "less burn and more warp" so to speak, which I imagine would both help with "why do the ships need to stop before using this system" question as the ships are using a different system to travel.
Any comments on this Alex?
From what I gather from the notes right now is that when engaging the "Sustained burn" that the fleet will slow down to a stop and then at a slower acceleration than normal will pick up speed up towards it's maximum plus 10. I also imagine this approach doesn't require a lot of additional work in terms visual differences and sound.

My humble suggestion based purely on my tastes is that:

Additionally:


Lastly: Have you though about ship mods that specifically increase "sustained burn" but don't effect in-combat or normal burn speed? So you could have a hullmod that only adds +2 or 3 to sustained burn but nothing else for instance?
Or as suggested before making "sustained burn" into "warp" and thus being two different travel systems, thus letting ships have different burn and warp speeds. Some ships geared towards exploring having a better warp speed but poor burn/in-combat speed for instance.

To me this seems like a cool thing to have, but I understand it's a luxury, not a priority. Still I would like to hear what people think about this, if this is a good thing to have at some point or if it's just me who thinks this way.
[/list]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 10, 2016, 09:20:45 AM
Question:  What is the order of operations when ship combines Safety Override and Unstable Injector?  Does Safety Override limit of 450 come before or after Unstable Injector's range cut?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 10, 2016, 10:15:41 AM
From what I gather from the notes right now is that when engaging the "Sustained burn" that the fleet will slow down to a stop and then at a slower acceleration than normal will pick up speed up towards it's maximum plus 10. I also imagine this approach doesn't require a lot of additional work in terms visual differences and sound.

My humble suggestion based purely on my tastes is that:
  • You make a fleet slow down and come to a full stop and then "charge up" the warp drive, after which the ships attain their maximum speed plus 10 additional burn speed.(Time spend charging up would be some what relative to the time spend accelerating)
    • Reason for this suggestion is that it feels both more punchy to go from fullstop to maximum speed so it might feel nicer.
    • Second reason is that players could experience "tight" moments where they are sitting at a fullstop looking at the charge up counting down as a fleet is engaging on them, only to blast away in the last second and nearly escape it. With the gradual slow acceleration you can also achieve a similar feeling but they have a different flavor to them.)

It would probably actually feel more unnatural to go from zero to full quickly. The kind of warp drive effect you're thinking about (going to assume Star Trek) takes a lot of smoke and mirrors to make feel "right". Plus it'd likely be more boring sitting there waiting for a timer than if you're slowly accelerating, even if the end result is the same. Finally, "low acceleration" is an important feature of making sustained burn work balance-wise.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but it sounds like what you're suggesting is an entirely different mechanic that bears only surface similarities to this one.


Lastly: Have you though about ship mods that specifically increase "sustained burn" but don't effect in-combat or normal burn speed? So you could have a hullmod that only adds +2 or 3 to sustained burn but nothing else for instance?

Sustained burn applies fleet-wide, though. So it would be something like, "+2 to the burn level of *this ship* while sustained burn is active", which could be useful on slower ships, yeah. But with stuff like this, you always have to ask, "why?".

Sure, it could be done, and it'd probably work. But there are literally millions of things like that. "Augmented Engines" already broadly covers "so, you want a hullmod that increases burn level" (and I'm not entirely sure it's a great idea to have in the first place, could go either way on that). Why add more customization detail specifically here, especially if it's something that can work to erase differences between ships? And is it important enough to clutter up the game with? Every piece of content you add has a price beyond the effort it takes to implement it.


Question:  What is the order of operations when ship combines Safety Override and Unstable Injector?  Does Safety Override limit of 450 come before or after Unstable Injector's range cut?

SO applies after. To be more precise, SO doesn't hard-limit the range to 450. It just reduces any range past that by 75%.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 10, 2016, 10:22:34 AM
I would see Augmented Drive Field must-have for the slowest ship in the fleet, but aside from Atlas, who is/are the slowest varies by fleet.  Atlas the slowest thing in my fleet?  My battleships do not need it.  I have no atlas, but I have battleships?  Battleships get ADF.  My biggest ships in the fleet are cruisers?  They get the hullmod.  I have a frigate-only fleet with burn 10+ that has Hyperion?  I will probably squeeze ADF on Hyperion somehow to keep burn speed up and prevent Hyperion from dragging everyone else down (assuming the rest of my frigates have it too).

P.S.  Augmented Engines giving both combat and burn speed is too much.  I literally slapped that hullmod on everything except Hyperion in fleet with slower ships.  (Hyperion got Augmented Engines too if the rest of the fleet has burn 11).  Current Augmented Engines is a god-tier hullmod, and a no-brainer to install.  If the only benefit Augmented Drive Field will give is burn speed, then not every ship will need it unless every ship has the same burn speed.  (Then either everyone or no one would get it).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 10, 2016, 11:23:00 AM
Just thought of something:  If the engine hullmods cost less OP, then ships that could not afford 8 OP for Augmented Engines might be able to afford Augmented Drive Field.  Ox has 5 OP, maybe 6 OP with max OP.  If Augmented Drive Field cost is cheap enough, then tugs can equip that to get burn 10, and such tugs may be used by any ship with burn 9 to get burn 10.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 10, 2016, 11:29:02 AM

It would probably actually feel more unnatural to go from zero to full quickly.
First thank you for taking time to respond.
I don't fully agree that it would feel unnatural, here are some examples of it and from my point of view it doesn't seem bad.
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/256666563/movie_max.webm?t=1467765984 Time at 4.27
https://youtu.be/CbWmFv0yZ2E?t=7 Here is another example of more or less how it would feel if the charge up time was around 5-6 seconds

The kind of warp drive effect you're thinking about (going to assume Star Trek) takes a lot of smoke and mirrors to make feel "right".
I understand, as mentioned before it probably takes more tinkering, but I believe that simple effects such as distortion can be used to great effect here. All you would really need to do is 1. Give ships a slightly different engine burn that they leave behind. 2. Add a "start up" effect as the ships charge up(which could be something like the space in front of the ships being distorted and pulling the front of the ships into the "vortex" so to speak. Here is something similar https://youtu.be/LSRTn-BoFYE?t=315 Notice how the nose of the ship gets distorted during the charge up.

Plus it'd likely be more boring sitting there waiting for a timer than if you're slowly accelerating, even if the end result is the same. Finally, "low acceleration" is an important feature of making sustained burn work balance-wise.
It really depends on just how long the charge up phase is I imagine somewhere between 4-10seconds  to be my first bet.

I mean, I get what you're saying, but it sounds like what you're suggesting is an entirely different mechanic that bears only surface similarities to this one.
Oh I am just throwing ideas out there and trying to get a better feel for your mindset and the reason for your choices. I would certainly enjoy if there is some effect to simulate the warp feeling, but that is a luxury.
I would certainly enjoy charge up from fullstop to full speed more than gradual (as long as the charge up isn't very long) but that's just my taste.
Customization with added mods that effect only sustained burn, would be nice for me personally, but I don't know how it would effect the game balance over all since I haven't put a lot of time into considering that.


Sustained burn applies fleet-wide, though. So it would be something like, "+2 to the burn level of *this ship* while sustained burn is active", which could be useful on slower ships, yeah. But with stuff like this, you always have to ask, "why?".

Sure, it could be done, and it'd probably work. But there are literally millions of things like that. "Augmented Engines" already broadly covers "so, you want a hullmod that increases burn level" (and I'm not entirely sure it's a great idea to have in the first place, could go either way on that). Why add more customization detail specifically here, especially if it's something that can work to erase differences between ships?
Why add more customization detail specifically here? Customization in general is more pleasant for the player since it gives them more options but it makes it harder for the dev to balance everything out neatly.
With customization to burn level for instance, some players might want to explore and travel quickly between systems, traders for example, or explorers. Having an extra variable between ships can add more depth and with mods in this specific field can either make already fast ships at sustained burn excel even better at it or perhaps a fleet has a ship that is relatively slow burn wise to everything else but can be brought up to speed with others just so your feelts minimum is bigger during sustained burn. Some players might not mind that and focus on other mods, it's about giving players choice in the end.

Also you can notice the post above me already mention some other examples of why it might be nice to have.

And is it important enough to clutter up the game with? Every piece of content you add has a price beyond the effort it takes to implement it.
Again just throwing out ideas and wishes. I trust the game dev to know at the end of the day what is worth the time and effort to implement and what isn't.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ReverendSin on December 10, 2016, 11:54:08 AM
Super happy to hear some decent progress, i've had this since i think 2011 and i was beginning to wonder.....but these notes look like the meat is starting to be added to the bones
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on December 11, 2016, 10:21:25 AM
Looks really solid.  Can't wait to play SS again :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 11, 2016, 10:36:50 AM
I don't fully agree that it would feel unnatural, here are some examples of it and from my point of view it doesn't seem bad.
http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/256666563/movie_max.webm?t=1467765984 Time at 4.27
https://youtu.be/CbWmFv0yZ2E?t=7 Here is another example of more or less how it would feel if the charge up time was around 5-6 seconds

Hmm - there are a lot of visual effects going on to sell the transition, and it would require a lot more to sell it from the point of view of the moving ship. But, really, coming back to my prior point, "warp" and "sustained burn" are just fundamentally different, not one being a slight tweak of the other. It's totally fair if you prefer "warp", but it's just not on the table :)

Customization in general is more pleasant for the player since it gives them more options but it makes it harder for the dev to balance everything out neatly.

Just wanted to make a quick note here, because it's a pet peeve of mine :)

Let's assume it was all perfectly balanced - which, as you note, is unlikely to be the case if there's a lot of it. Then an extra bit of customization is either an important decision or it's not. If it's not an important decision (and, ok, this is not a well-defined concept, but let's roll with it) then it's just adding noise, making it harder for the player to see what's actually important. This may be ok to some degree if it's also adding flavor or something else valuable.

If it *is* an important decision, well, how many of those do you want the player to make before they get to stop customizing and play the rest of the game?

Point is, even well-balanced customization options have downsides if there are too many of them. Basically, imagine if Starsector had ten times the number of hullmods, without UI improvements to help manage this information/decision overload.


Again just throwing out ideas and wishes.

Much appreciated, I certainly don't mind :)


Super happy to hear some decent progress, i've had this since i think 2011 and i was beginning to wonder.....but these notes look like the meat is starting to be added to the bones

You know, that's how I feel about it too - "finally, getting to all the good stuff".


Looks really solid.  Can't wait to play SS again :)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 11, 2016, 10:42:17 AM
Would just like to address the concept of linking combat speed and burn speed, or rather the principles of why these things are not linked.

For long distance travel, you want a reliable engine that can operate at high power with minimal fuel consumption for an arbitrarily long period of time.  But for combat, you want the maximum performance that can be achieved - it doesn't matter how fuel efficient you are if you are not fast enough to dodge, or if the enemy can dictate engagements to you.  These two considerations are directly in conflict with one another.  In Starsector lore, there is another consideration - power consumption.  A military vessel needs to reserve as much power as possible for shields and firing weapons.  Competitive military starships resolve these contradictions through hardware that can perform at a very high level for a short period of time - while commercial starships keep costs down by not installing secondary high performance thrusters or dual-mode engines.   Thus, there is a difference between a ship's combat speed and burn speed.

Another way of thinking about is is the marathon runner versus the sprinter.  All ships in Starsector need to be capable of running marathons, but only military ships were designed for sprints - a commercial vessel may even be a better marathon runner than a given military vessel, but will never match a military vessel in a sprint. 

There's a pen and paper 4x game called Starfire - iirc David Weber got his start in writing by essentially novelizing Starfire campaigns.  The game draws a distinction between 'commercial' and 'military' drives- military drives have a much higher performance in combat, and technically have a higher speed when traveling between systems as well - but they tend to break down when used at maximum power for any extended length of time. Over enough of a distance, the commercial drives are actually faster, since they can always be run at full power without issue.

EDIT - Regarding customization.

There's a lot of games out there that have had a lot of options but when you got down to it there wasn't a lot of *choice*.  Total Annihilation is my favorite example in this respect.  Incredible game for a lot of reasons, and it had a LOT of units.  But while many units had situational utility, it turned out that some units were just always the best choice in the 'what should I build?' decision loop.   The number of available choices doesn't actually depend on the number of available options, but rather on the number of distinct gameplay uses and situations that the player expects to encounter.  The player will always choose the best available option for a given gameplay niche, and so extra options are largely redundant, even if they are reasonably well balanced.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 11, 2016, 11:52:06 AM
The number of available choices doesn't actually depend on the number of available options, but rather on the number of distinct gameplay uses and situations that the player expects to encounter.  The player will always choose the best available option for a given gameplay niche, and so extra options are largely redundant, even if they are reasonably well balanced.
The only tier that matters is top-tier, and maybe lesser-tier anomalies that happen to be optimal counter-picks to otherwise god-tier options but get trashed by even mid-tier options.  The more viable options competing for the best there are, the better.  EDIT:  By this, I mean if you have several options, but one is much better than the rest that using it is a no-brainer, then you effectively only have one choice.  It would be nice to have at least a few options competing for the best.  If you could somehow add arbitrary large number (say a hundred) of options that are equally good, it could very well be too much for the player who does not have encyclopedic knowledge of the whole game, and possibly even for the player who knows what he wants if option bloat causes the UI to breakdown and be a pain to use.

That said, if a game tries to be a sim, it may need suboptimal and redundant options to add immersion to the game, because every self-reliant faction wants their homemade toys, even if the result is all of the competitors' toys are mostly the same.  Starsector handwaves this by saying such minor variations of a given weapon is still this weapon, as seen in machinegun descriptions; such that this point is moot and unnecessary.

Also, inferior hardware for NPC wimps like Thumper for pirates is a good way to make wimpy opponents, although frustrating to loot unless vendors pay much for such junk.

Then there is progression and rarity that can skew things.  In Starsector, sometimes, I want a railgun, but they are rare enough that I sometimes settle for (the very common) Arbalest for ships that can use them, and save railguns for ships that cannot use Arbalest.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 11, 2016, 11:59:33 AM
Just don't go aRPG with the loot/mods/weapons—the moment I see a Thunderous Arbalest of the Techno-Gods, I'm out!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 11, 2016, 12:06:30 PM
Just don't go aRPG with the loot/mods/weapons—the moment I see a Thunderous Arbalest of the Techno-Gods, I'm out!
Like in the Diablo series?  If so, I do not blame you.  That way leads to a few top-tier items while the rest are junk, and the game is multiplayer, the best gets duped.  It is not a pleasant experience, except possibly for the lucky elite that gets the perfect item and use it for max damage PvE.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 11, 2016, 12:15:19 PM
and it would require a lot more to sell it from the point of view of the moving ship.
The same distortion effect that is used during explosions in the graphics lib mod, could be used for the distortion effect, the only problem is that it's not a simple distortion from the center point, similarly the warp travel trail could also be a small distortion trail, much like hot air distorting the background. Only real concern is how much of a performance drain the fancy distortion effect would be compared to simple particle trails.

But, really, coming back to my prior point, "warp" and "sustained burn" are just fundamentally different, not one being a slight tweak of the other.
They can be as different as you make them to be. Really my original idea was that balance wise and gameplay wise they would be pretty much the same, with the only real difference being "the feeling" of using it would give.
Here is a picture of why I think they are relatively the same from a balance standpoint. https://s28.postimg.org/os6bhvqx9/exxample.jpg

Maybe I should just try to make a mod for this later on and not pester the dev.

Let's assume it was all perfectly balanced - which, as you note, is unlikely to be the case if there's a lot of it. Then an extra bit of customization is either an important decision or it's not. If it's not an important decision (and, ok, this is not a well-defined concept, but let's roll with it) then it's just adding noise, making it harder for the player to see what's actually important. This may be ok to some degree if it's also adding flavor or something else valuable.

If it *is* an important decision, well, how many of those do you want the player to make before they get to stop customizing and play the rest of the game?
Both of these issues are addressed by limiting the players exposure to the said choices. What I mean by this is that the same way you don't start the game with every single shipmod, weapon, ship available to you, the same way this customization would be only available or relevant later on.


Side note: It would be really nice for new players if the game let people see what a hull mod does, when either looking at character perks, or when looking at other ships in the store for example. For new players it would be handy if they didn't need to buy a ship before they can find out what a hull mod does, or if they need to level a character to find out what certain hullmods do.


Point is, even well-balanced customization options have downsides if there are too many of them. Basically, imagine if Starsector had ten times the number of hullmods, without UI improvements to help manage this information/decision overload.
As mentioned above, even 10 times the ship mods would be okay, as long as players aren't exposed to all of them at the same time at the start, but rather gradually introduced to them. For more advanced players, I imagine extra choices are very pleasant because they have assimilated all the available choices and extra choices are just that, more freedom, rather than overload of decisions.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 11, 2016, 12:48:17 PM
Both of these issues are addressed by limiting the players exposure to the said choices. What I mean by this is that the same way you don't start the game with every single shipmod, weapon, ship available to you, the same way this customization would be only available or relevant later on.
...
As mentioned above, even 10 times the ship mods would be okay, as long as players aren't exposed to all of them at the same time at the start, but rather gradually introduced to them.

While something being initially overwhelming is something to consider and deal with, tweaking the progression to an end state is not going to help a whole lot if that end state is bad to begin with. I mean, at some point too much stuff is just too much stuff, no matter how you get there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 11, 2016, 02:44:55 PM
I'm looking forward to getting that feeling of going on a long, lonely journey in search of new worlds and treasures. With no markets out in distant systems, you'll finally need to bring actual fuel tankers to make it there and back again safely—anything that gives a more meaningful purpose to currently poorly utilized parts of the game (like tankers) is a big win to me!

But damn, Alex, there better be some good stuff to find out there! Getting to those distant systems is looking like it could cost thousands of fuel/supplies!

You ever think of giving the cap sized tanker (Prometheus) the ability to convert various raw resources into fuel? Something like onboard micro-refineries that take volatiles/organics/rare metals and turn'em into fuel? Wouldn't be efficient but certainly nice to have in tight situations considering raw resources will probably be common loot when exploring systems. Could be a hotbar ability that only shows when you have a ship with said refineries in your fleet!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Carabus on December 11, 2016, 03:19:55 PM
While we are at the topic of too many hullmods, I think even with current amount of hullmods, user experience would benefit from putting them into categories. They can be pretty easily segregated into categories like for example these:
- Weapon mods
- Armor/Hull mods
- Shield mods
- Power/Flux mods
- Engine mods
- Sensors mods
- Logistics mods
- Other
StarSector used to try that with prefixes like [A] and [E], but imho it needs proper UI support.
Hullmod selection window could have expandable lists for each category.
On top of that, each hullmod could have small icons representing categories it belongs to.
I say categories, because it it not hard to imagine one hullmod with belong to more than one category. In such case it would have several category-icons, and would show when at least one of expandable lists it belongs to is expanded.
There could even be "positive" and "negative" icons for each category, so for example the new Unstable Injector could have green engine icon and red weapons icon. There could be yellow icons too if the change is somehow neutral.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 11, 2016, 03:58:54 PM
OH SHOOT are we gonna get the ability to filter weapons in the drop down by damage type or size?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Imperium on December 11, 2016, 06:10:43 PM
OH SHOOT are we gonna get the ability to filter weapons in the drop down by damage type or size?
Please oh please be so
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gozer on December 11, 2016, 11:05:13 PM
awesome ... I'll have to check the forums more often

just a quick question ... will/can something be done about maneuverability of fleets? (both in the star system and in hyperspace) ... in battle it takes quite a bit of time to do 360 turn in Onslaught, but on the main map fleet full of Onslaughts changes course just as fast as frigate-only wolfpack fleet. Sure, the max speed/burn is different, but quite often the AI fleets are able to do really uncanny dodge maneuvers, especially when coupled with the maximum burn ability (and their total disregard for supplies/fuel needs)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RandomnessInc on December 12, 2016, 12:48:25 AM
With the new hull mod acquiring system, would you be able to find hullmods like the special fourteenth battle group one, possible under a different name but withthe exact same affects?


On a side note, any special hullmod for the tri-tachs?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Barracuda on December 12, 2016, 05:11:54 AM
Just wondering, when is the "Coalition" going to join the sector? Its just a minor question referencing one of your old blog posts on the fraction icons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on December 12, 2016, 07:47:20 AM
I remember seeing something about them becoming the Persian league which is coming next patch
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on December 12, 2016, 08:57:02 AM
I remember seeing something about them becoming the Persian league which is coming next patch
The Persean League, yes. (If it helps, I pronounce it "Per-see-an", as in a word derived from the name Perseus.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on December 12, 2016, 09:53:03 AM
Aha, and here I was wondering what the Persian nation from old Earth is doing in our fine sector... Thanks for the clarification
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 12, 2016, 10:11:32 AM
You ever think of giving the cap sized tanker (Prometheus) the ability to convert various raw resources into fuel? Something like onboard micro-refineries that take volatiles/organics/rare metals and turn'em into fuel? Wouldn't be efficient but certainly nice to have in tight situations considering raw resources will probably be common loot when exploring systems. Could be a hotbar ability that only shows when you have a ship with said refineries in your fleet!

Not specifically; it's a potential solution for a potential problem :)


While we are at the topic of too many hullmods, I think even with current amount of hullmods, user experience would benefit from putting them into categories. ...

Yeah, been thinking along very similar lines. Actually, right now, hullmods even have "tags" under the hood, which are precisely what you're talking about with categories.

This kind of thing would definitely be nice to add. Just a question of finding time for it at some point, since it's not a high priority item.


OH SHOOT are we gonna get the ability to filter weapons in the drop down by damage type or size?
Please oh please be so

Again, a "finding time" issue. I've got a TODO item for this, but we'll see if I actually manage to get to it. A lot of "let's improve the UI" type things tend to only get done while reworking some mechanics in a related area, since then the mental cost of diving into that area is already paid, if that makes sense.


With the new hull mod acquiring system, would you be able to find hullmods like the special fourteenth battle group one, possible under a different name but withthe exact same affects?

Probably not that one; wouldn't make a lot of sense given its description.

On a side note, any special hullmod for the tri-tachs?

Not (yet?).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 12, 2016, 10:45:37 AM
Tri-Tachyon Hull Mods

Luxurious Appointments
Real-Time Stock Market Link
'Peeping Tom' Surveillance AI
Executive's Yacht
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 12, 2016, 11:32:16 AM
just a quick question ... will/can something be done about maneuverability of fleets? (both in the star system and in hyperspace) ... in battle it takes quite a bit of time to do 360 turn in Onslaught, but on the main map fleet full of Onslaughts changes course just as fast as frigate-only wolfpack fleet. Sure, the max speed/burn is different, but quite often the AI fleets are able to do really uncanny dodge maneuvers, especially when coupled with the maximum burn ability (and their total disregard for supplies/fuel needs)

Forgot to reply here: probably not, no. That's all pretty much working like it's supposed to, and emergency burn in particular gives a boost to acceleration, as it's meant to be used for these kinds of maneuvers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on December 12, 2016, 04:19:06 PM
high tech trading! I like that!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 12, 2016, 04:21:07 PM
The Persean League, yes. (If it helps, I pronounce it "Per-see-an", as in a word derived from the name Perseus.)

Oh, interesting. That implies some things about the extent of the Domain, and maybe even about the location of the Sector. The Perseus arm is the closest spiral arm to the Orion arm (which is home to Sol). It's about 5000 light years from us, in the direction from the galactic center away. If there's a faction in the Sector named after it, then the Sector is either in it, or the faction is powerful enough to have spread across the Domain. Something to look out for in the lore :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on December 12, 2016, 11:55:05 PM
I don't know, that's one of the major arms of Milky Way Galaxy and quite huuuuuge...

Warning: below contains some random slightly-out-of-context calculations done by me.
Spoiler
The Domain is said to be "Spanning hundreds of thousands of worlds in the Milky Way" according to the State of Affair, now sort-of-obsolote piece of lore but I will risk a guess that this part remained the same.

Assuming by "hundreds of thousands" it meant literally, Domain had n * 10^7 planets under control. Milky Way Galaxy is estimated to have few hundreds of billions(n * 10^11) of planets.

Maintaining above assumption, we can see Domain had n * 1/10^4 = 0.0n% of our Galaxy as its territory. Which is pretty impressive number - something more than a small dot in a picture of entire Milky Way Galaxy.

For easy calculation, assume all stars in our Galaxy are in a single plane(it is not) and distributed evenly(again, certainly not). Our galaxy has diameter of 100~180kly. Taking the median 140kly, dividing it by 2 to get radius(70kly). To have a circle 0.01% of the area of a circle 70kly radius, its radius has to be 700ly.
The numbers would be several parsecs off but we got some sense of scale :/

Part of the Perseus Arm closest to the Sol is 6400ly antiradial away, 10 times further from what I have assumed, but might be plausible.
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 13, 2016, 01:14:12 AM
nothing really says that the domain of the domain (heh) has to be contiguous. whatever very-long-distance-FTL is or was in service may enable travel of arbitrary distances, which is why there's nothing of interest past the core of the sector; domain finds interesting worlds using very-long-range-FTL sensor, domain hops in, settles it and then links it through whatever means.

the persean league could very well be from the perseus arm without necessarily having control of everything between here and there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 13, 2016, 03:31:30 AM
Quote from: Alex
Battles leave behind short-duration debris fields that can be scavenged

Do AI fleets scavenge, or are the maybe even specialized scavenger fleets? Sound like fighting/racing other weak fleets for access to debris fields could be a fun early game activity.


nothing really says that the domain of the domain (heh) has to be contiguous. whatever very-long-distance-FTL is or was in service may enable travel of arbitrary distances, which is why there's nothing of interest past the core of the sector; domain finds interesting worlds using very-long-range-FTL sensor, domain hops in, settles it and then links it through whatever means.

the persean league could very well be from the perseus arm without necessarily having control of everything between here and there.

I'm pretty sure that's how it is. I imagine the Domain send a gate-ship in a promising cluster very far away (years of travel), connect it to the gate network, and then expand outwards from the new gate. If the theory is correct, that's the reason why we have a Sector (probably many Sectors) in the first place, instead of continuous settled territory. And why our Sector is cut off from the rest of the Domain upon gate failure.

That they probably settled in the Perseus arm just tells us something about the reach of the Domain, not about the total settled volume of space or number of stars.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 13, 2016, 04:13:47 AM
if that is so they've come a long way.

looking for something, perhaps?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 13, 2016, 04:57:46 AM
There's also the Perseus constellation and the various Perseid stars :^)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on December 13, 2016, 06:01:45 AM
...right. I wasn't thinking about the gates.

How wide was our Sector(more specifically, our Core World area)?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 13, 2016, 09:08:43 AM
...right. I wasn't thinking about the gates.

How wide was our Sector(more specifically, our Core World area)?


According to the cartography blogpost (things might change), the Sector core seems to be about 18x10 light years  across. The entire Sector encompasses about 72x48 ly.

For reference, here's a picture of a 25ly(diameter) volume around the sun (what might have been the Domain's core worlds).

Spoiler
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/12lightyears.gif)
[close]


There's also the Perseus constellation and the various Perseid stars :^)

Right, but constellations are perspectivic and only make sense from the viewpoint of one system (i.e. Sol). Case in point, the Perseus constellation contains stars that are as close as 30, and as far as 2000ly from Sol. I'd assume that they'd lose their relevance for an interstellar civilization. I mean, it's of course possible that the Persian league is just from Alpha Persei or some such, but the spiral arm seems more likely to me as the source of the name.


if that is so they've come a long way.

looking for something, perhaps?

Maybe... Although for a civilization with slow hyperspace travel and instant hypergate travel spreading your gates as far as possible is simply the most efficient way for expansion, I believe. It means that all your territories can expand evenly in all directions, instead of bordering on each other and thus mutually restraining their growth.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 13, 2016, 09:39:26 AM
Quote from: Alex
Battles leave behind short-duration debris fields that can be scavenged

Do AI fleets scavenge, or are the maybe even specialized scavenger fleets? Sound like fighting/racing other weak fleets for access to debris fields could be a fun early game activity.

Thinking along similar lines, yeah. Not in the game right now, but definitely considering if/how to add those kinds of things in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 13, 2016, 02:11:07 PM
SALVAGE RIG! YAY!

My gut reaction is this seems small, seeing as you're burning supplies dragging it out there, and additional supplies to deploy it, and you're likely needing escorts to keep it safe.
Yeah, I'm not sure this will stay in actually. It has some other problems - it's either always worth it to deploy the rig, or always not, depending on the battle size.

I love the idea of this mechanic! I hope it will stay in, pending whatever adjustments to the numbers are needed to make it worthwhile for people willing to lug around a rig in their fleet. It's really cool because it adds a meta-objective to combat for the player: deploy/defend your salvage rig. (and for the AI, to destroy it.) Just for veracity pirate fleets should also sometimes deploy a rig in combat.

Combat needs more stuff like this that the player and AI can both deploy for advantage. It gives both teams something to hunt and something to defend, which overall adds much more options to the way combat can play out.

Here are some more things like that:
-Sensor ship that provide sensor radius increase to all friendlies on the map while deployed.
-Scout ships that improve speed/maneuverability and nebular navigation to all friendlies on combat map (and buffs in campaign map)
-Telemetry spotter ships that provide buffs to missile accuracy and gunfire accuracy/damage to all friendly ships within a certain distance of telemetry ship. (so you'd assign these ships to escort heavy hitters a lot)
-Troop ship that increase chance of successful boarding if deployed to battle. (you didn't deploy the troop ship? Then you can't use it in the post battle boarding dialogue. Don't remember current status of boarding dialogue)
-Medical ships that reduce crew fatalities in/after combat while deployed (if crew even still exist in the game)
-Command and Control ships that increase command points and speed at which friendly ships respond to new orders and do something good to CR. (every capital ship would have this, think of those pits full of guys with computers in  star destroyers)

Notice a pattern? It's all replacing stuff that is currently combat map objectives, which don't make sense and aren't particularly fun, or XP skills, which are unbalanced and just reward hours played by the player character, rather than real skill building by the actual player. Basically I think skills are totally wrong for this kind of game. Growth and improved capabilities should come through learning to play the game better, coming up with better strategies, and getting/deploying new and better ships. Not "XP skills" which are points for grinding that magically let you "upgrade your X by Y%" They make sense in a table top RPG, but not in a game that uses the arrow keys.


*Note since officers aren't actual humans who can grow better at the game, there might be more potential for the XP and skills for the officer characters rather than the human player character.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nick XR on December 13, 2016, 02:35:18 PM
SALVAGE RIG! YAY!

My gut reaction is this seems small, seeing as you're burning supplies dragging it out there, and additional supplies to deploy it, and you're likely needing escorts to keep it safe.
Yeah, I'm not sure this will stay in actually. It has some other problems - it's either always worth it to deploy the rig, or always not, depending on the battle size.

I love the idea of this mechanic! I hope it will stay in, pending whatever adjustments to the numbers are needed to make it worthwhile for people willing to lug around a rig in their fleet. It's really cool because it adds a meta-objective to combat for the player: deploy/defend your salvage rig. (and for the AI, to destroy it.) Just for veracity pirate fleets should also sometimes deploy a rig in combat.

Combat needs more stuff like this that the player and AI can both deploy for advantage. It gives both teams something to hunt and something to defend, which overall adds much more options to the way combat can play out.

Here are some more things like that:
-Sensor ship that provide sensor radius increase to all friendlies on the map while deployed.
-Scout ships that improve speed/maneuverability and nebular navigation to all friendlies on combat map (and buffs in campaign map)
-Telemetry spotter ships that provide buffs to missile accuracy and gunfire accuracy/damage to all friendly ships within a certain distance of telemetry ship. (so you'd assign these ships to escort heavy hitters a lot)
-Troop ship that increase chance of successful boarding if deployed to battle. (you didn't deploy the troop ship? Then you can't use it in the post battle boarding dialogue. Don't remember current status of boarding dialogue)
-Medical ships that reduce crew fatalities in/after combat while deployed (if crew even still exist in the game)
-Command and Control ships that increase command points and speed at which friendly ships respond to new orders and do something good to CR. (every capital ship would have this, think of those pits full of guys with computers in  star destroyers)

Notice a pattern? It's all replacing stuff that is currently combat map objectives, which don't make sense and aren't particularly fun, or XP skills, which are unbalanced and just reward hours played by the player character, rather than real skill building by the actual player. Basically I think skills are totally wrong for this kind of game. Growth and improved capabilities should come through learning to play the game better, coming up with better strategies, and getting/deploying new and better ships. Not "XP skills" which are points for grinding that magically let you "upgrade your X by Y%" They make sense in a table top RPG, but not in a game that uses the arrow keys.


*Note since officers aren't actual humans who can grow better at the game, there might be more potential for the XP and skills for the officer characters rather than the human player character.

The force multiplier ships could be interesting, but having to keep them within the proper distance of other ships is a non-starter because the player doesn't have that kind of fine-grained control of ship location(this isn't StarCraft).  As far as deploying salvage ships and what not, when would you deploy those?  In a close battle with lots of salvage to be had where you will only win if you go all out, or one where the fight is a guarenteed win?  Probably only in the "win" scenario, at which point it's a non-choice masquerading as a choice and you shouldn't have to deal with it.  Maybe a general force multiplier ship could still be useful, but the bonus would have to be significant enough to outweigh any individual dead-weight that a ship not kitted for combat brings.  So in theory it looks good, but I have doubts if it actually would add anything in practice.

Perhaps salvaging a debris field after combat that takes a bit of time and would leave fleets that were attacked suffering from some sort of disadvantage if combat breaks out (like fewer deployment points, further away from map objectives).  I like all of the campaign map bonuses that ships could provide, I think that's where there's lots of low-hanging fruit to be had with adding content.  Combat is pretty great as it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 13, 2016, 02:39:01 PM
I might bring a salvage rig if it meant finding more rare weapons like Light Needlers or Atropos.  I would not bring salvage rigs just to harvest more supplies, unless I get much more, but then that has the "...always worth it to deploy..." problem.

Construction/Salvage rig is ugly.  I hope bringing a rig is not mandatory to be optimal, not unlike Diablo characters wearing ugly helms or accessories (like an ugly green skull) and look stupid because they are the best with much better stats than everything else.  Already, I always bring tugs when I have ships with burn of 8.  If tugs can use Augmented Drive Field, I will probably use more tugs because many more ships can get burn 9.

All combat objectives are to me are ways to exploit AI and/or as a CP generator later in the battle (let enemy take it, then take it back for more CP).  I prefer no objectives for a nice clean fight.  No tricks, no distractions, just raw smackdown.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on December 13, 2016, 03:21:36 PM
Construction/Salvage rig is ugly.

(I've redrawn it, btw.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on December 13, 2016, 04:26:07 PM
So in theory it looks good, but I have doubts if it actually would add anything in practice.

Details details. Those can be worked out or adjusted. I just thought it up in 5 mins; maybe some will be radius based, and maybe others would just effect every friendly ship in combat. (But you can still assign one ship to escort another, right? that would be enough for radius based) The main thing is that it opens the doors for different kinds of battles.

Right now it's always pitched battle between warships, or chasing fleeing freighters and mothballs. These sorts of special ships open the door for combat based on knocking out a certain ship to turn the tide or whatever ("They're heading for the medical frigate" etc)

(Of course the whole concept of "I have a fleet and I bump into an enemy fleet, but somehow I can still choose to not deploy some of my ships and magically hide them from the battle" doesn't really make sense and removes a lot of the spice and jeopardy from combat, but oh well)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 13, 2016, 05:07:14 PM
space is really big, if you don't want to deploy ships in combat in the initial engagement, that's perfectly allowable; all they have to do is burn retrograde (against wherever they are going) and the combat ships will arrive minutes or hours before they do.

assuming the engagement does not end in a relatively small amount of time, though, or assuming the enemy can break through, then they should be threatened. adding such a system to the game is probably inevitable, i doubt combat will stay like it is forever. it's probably the last "pillar" of the game that's remained unchanged for a very long time and could use an update relative to all of the other things that have irrevocably changed combat from what it used to be.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 13, 2016, 05:18:05 PM
It's really cool because it adds a meta-objective to combat for the player: deploy/defend your salvage rig. (and for the AI, to destroy it.)

Yeah! Which was the reason for adding that, but if it doesn't work out mechanically then it's no good, despite what the intentions might be.

Here are some more things like that:
...

Kind of wish I could talk about what I'm working on right now, but will hold off until the next blog post :) Let's just say there's some relevance, but along a slightly different direction.

Construction/Salvage rig is ugly.

(I've redrawn it, btw.)

FWIW, I really liked the old Salvage Rig. New one's cool too, though.

Details details. Those can be worked out or adjusted.

Details are literally almost the only thing that matters :) The quality of the idea is like 10% of the quality of the outcome, imo, if that. Now, a truly great idea also simplifies working out the details and the implementation thereof, so there's a bit more to it, but still.


assuming the engagement does not end in a relatively small amount of time, though, or assuming the enemy can break through, then they should be threatened. adding such a system to the game is probably inevitable, i doubt combat will stay like it is forever.

Hmm - I really wouldn't bet on that. As I think we've discussed in another thread, I think trying to bring this other stuff directly into combat would belabor things quite a bit. Still, never say never and all that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on December 13, 2016, 06:20:27 PM
ALEX! WOULD you maybe be interested in giving a boost to salvage ratings for a salvage rig that is in the engagement and survives, over one that's not in the engagement and has to be moved up to the graveyard after the fact?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: dk1332 on December 13, 2016, 08:06:25 PM
Speaking of salvaging things. I just some clarification on something.

Can we salvage some of our destroyed fighters? If not then I wish thats also a part of it like "After the battle, your fleet was able to salvage parts from destroyed fighters, Salvaging XX chasis for X-Fighter". That should ease some burden to carriers.

Also, Junk parts should be a thing. You know, just sell them to recycling plants for a little profit.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 13, 2016, 08:35:50 PM
Did ya miss the fighter rework blog post? http://fractalsoftworks.com/2016/08/24/fighter-redesign/ Fighters no longer have limited chassis.

I wish David would give us a few BEFORE/AFTER pics of the various sprites he has tweaked.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: dk1332 on December 13, 2016, 09:05:33 PM
Pretty much a new guy here so yeah I did.

So thats why some people talking about fighters are gonna be sort of "unlimited". Guess I need to go back to the drawing board once the update comes in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DatonKallandor on December 14, 2016, 01:11:53 PM
Objective based battles where the objectives are your own utility ships would be much cooler and worth it if ships didn't get destroyed so easily. If most kills in a fight were just mission-kills and you'd be able to nurse them back to health after the battle - hell yeah I'd be happy to do a defensive "guard the salvage rigs" circle-the-wagons kind of battle.

But currently ships are so expensive relative to the rewards taking a fight that isn't a sure win with no or almost no casualties isn't worth it until the very endgame after you've already "won".

Also on those salvage rig extra salavage idea, I think that would work great as it's own battle type you select in the pre-fight dialogue. So your salvage rigs are pre-deployed in a specific area and you just have to defend them (maybe even only for a x time) to win and get the bonus. Which of course would also be a cool battle type to experience from the other side - when you are jumping somebody else who's salvaging.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 14, 2016, 01:20:47 PM
(Of course the whole concept of "I have a fleet and I bump into an enemy fleet, but somehow I can still choose to not deploy some of my ships and magically hide them from the battle" doesn't really make sense and removes a lot of the spice and jeopardy from combat, but oh well)

It makes plenty of sense.  The escort ships burn ahead of the convoy to intercept incoming attackers, and after fighting through them the fleeing cargo ships are exposed.  I feel like the current combat system already does a good job of representing this dynamic.  It's not like they get to sit out the retreat or something.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on December 14, 2016, 01:53:32 PM
The Persean League, yes. (If it helps, I pronounce it "Per-see-an", as in a word derived from the name Perseus.)

Oh, interesting. That implies some things about the extent of the Domain, and maybe even about the location of the Sector. The Perseus arm is the closest spiral arm to the Orion arm (which is home to Sol). It's about 5000 light years from us, in the direction from the galactic center away. If there's a faction in the Sector named after it, then the Sector is either in it, or the faction is powerful enough to have spread across the Domain. Something to look out for in the lore :)

https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s (https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s)  ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 14, 2016, 08:16:57 PM
Speaking of trailers, is there gonna be a new one for the big patch coming up? Current trailer is over a year old—seems like the time is ripe for another!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ahrenjb on December 14, 2016, 08:20:10 PM
Great stuff, Alex. Looking forward to playing this release. Seeing things like this unfold is the benefit of being an early adopter.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on December 15, 2016, 03:19:12 AM
The Persean League, yes. (If it helps, I pronounce it "Per-see-an", as in a word derived from the name Perseus.)

Oh, interesting. That implies some things about the extent of the Domain, and maybe even about the location of the Sector. The Perseus arm is the closest spiral arm to the Orion arm (which is home to Sol). It's about 5000 light years from us, in the direction from the galactic center away. If there's a faction in the Sector named after it, then the Sector is either in it, or the faction is powerful enough to have spread across the Domain. Something to look out for in the lore :)

https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s (https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s)  ;)

"6,000 lightyears from Old Earth"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gozer on December 15, 2016, 03:45:06 AM
https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s (https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s)  ;)


Spoiler
https://youtu.be/GvKfecT88f4 (https://youtu.be/GvKfecT88f4)  
[close]

well, I still consider this one to be the best trailer for Starsector, despite being 4+ years old ... showing mostly combat and lots of it, plenty of different ships (some are from mods though), large battles, awesome music. Compared to the fan made trailer the official trailer is kind of ... boring.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 15, 2016, 08:03:12 PM
https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s (https://youtu.be/eAvo3S0MD-o?t=1s)  ;)


Spoiler
https://youtu.be/GvKfecT88f4 (https://youtu.be/GvKfecT88f4)  
[close]

well, I still consider this one to be the best trailer for Starsector, despite being 4+ years old ... showing mostly combat and lots of it, plenty of different ships (some are from mods though), large battles, awesome music. Compared to the fan made trailer the official trailer is kind of ... boring.

I am going to have to heavily disagree on that. The original trailer shows a quick glimpse of the game and what you can expect, the music is fitting and the over all video has pacing to it and while short it does get the message across in an efficient manner.
The fan made trailer has music that makes me cringe because it's as overused as linking park in naruto AMVs, and while certainly it does spend more time showing off combat, it doesn't really give that much overview of the game.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gozer on December 16, 2016, 12:31:27 AM
I am going to have to heavily disagree on that. The original trailer shows a quick glimpse of the game and what you can expect, the music is fitting and the over all video has pacing to it and while short it does get the message across in an efficient manner.
The fan made trailer has music that makes me cringe because it's as overused as linking park in naruto AMVs, and while certainly it does spend more time showing off combat, it doesn't really give that much overview of the game.

the biggest "problem" I have with the official trailer is that it simply doesn't show gameplay (certainly not for the combat). The last 20 seconds of trailer that shows combat are way too short cuts (22 seconds of total combat coverage, split into 7 different cuts), always only showing extremely short clip of ship(s) firing one salvo and then there is cut and trailer jumps to another scene that again only shows one salvo etc. The fan trailer shows much longer combat scenes, giving much better impression of how the gameplay actually looks like ... and also shows the user interface (in my opinion a good thing, this is what player will be seeing in his game, not the "staged" cinematic shots without UI)

and the fan trailer not giving better overview of the game (map, trading, etc) is simply result of many of these things either weren't in the game 4 years ago or were a lot more simplified compared to todays version. Here the official trailer is in a bit of a though spot thanks to the fact that it tries to show a lot more things in only third of the running time (the fan trailer simply shows combat because back then the game was almost entirely about combat ... or things leading directly to combat and not much else).

Official trailer is good, but tries to show too many things in too short time. Here the fan trailer would be way more effective in convincing me to try to find more info about the game and check it out (my VERY subjective opinion, I'm sure plenty of players will disagree with that). Or maybe in (distant) future there could be 2nd trailer (combat trailer?), showing more combat with longer scenes and UI displayed ... and maybe also showing the ship customization in a little more detail.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 16, 2016, 05:44:17 AM
the biggest "problem" I have with the official trailer is that it simply doesn't show gameplay (certainly not for the combat). The last 20 seconds of trailer that shows combat are way too short cuts (22 seconds of total combat coverage, split into 7 different cuts), always only showing extremely short clip of ship(s) firing one salvo and then there is cut and trailer jumps to another scene that again only shows one salvo etc. The fan trailer shows much longer combat scenes, giving much better impression of how the gameplay actually looks like ... and also shows the user interface (in my opinion a good thing, this is what player will be seeing in his game, not the "staged" cinematic shots without UI)
A games trailer should not be about just one aspect of the game, neither should it cover it in-depth. It should instead give a brief overview of the entire game, set the pace and tone of the game and spark your interest. After which if people are interested they will look up another trailer, a letsplay, a combat trailer or something like this
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTCpVY80Bpc
[close]
which is what I watched after the official trailer.

and the fan trailer not giving better overview of the game (map, trading, etc) is simply result of many of these things either weren't in the game 4 years ago or were a lot more simplified compared to todays version. Here the official trailer is in a bit of a though spot thanks to the fact that it tries to show a lot more things in only third of the running time (the fan trailer simply shows combat because back then the game was almost entirely about combat ... or things leading directly to combat and not much else).
Ah, I see, still the game has more to it than just combat these days so it counts.
I guess if your statement would be "we need a trailer that highlights the combat in addition to the primary trailer" then I would fully agree, people love having more info on stuff.

Or maybe in (distant) future there could be 2nd trailer (combat trailer?), showing more combat with longer scenes and UI displayed ... and maybe also showing the ship customization in a little more detail.
Sure, a trailer that shows off the combat more, is good, but as a secondary trailer, not as the primary.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Fandanguero on December 16, 2016, 07:17:44 AM
Yeah!
Yeah! Skipped last update, but this one should take me back once again. Waiting for 0.8a
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 16, 2016, 07:19:36 AM
IMO, I do feel the official trailer should lead off with combat, or go into it very early. It's the most polished and visually appealing aspect of the game, and the best way to hook people's interest.  Afterwards the depth of the game outside of combat can be shown.  
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on December 16, 2016, 08:51:07 AM
I think game trailers are an interesting creative undertaking, and one I've participated in producing quite a few times, so I'll comment on this in-depth.

First, know your goal: A game trailer isn't for players who play the game already. It's for potential players who may buy the game. And it's got to fit into about 90 to 150 seconds "because that's the way it is", short-form video is the expectation and tradition. Doing video documentation of the depth of a game mechanic is irrelevant to the requirements of a first-sight trailer compared to simply expressing how the game feels. (Diving deep into combat would, however, be appropriate for a supplementary promotional video if such a thing was desired. Some studios find video production really easy, some don't. Alex isn't a guy with native video skills and neither am I, so any video marketing is non-trivial effort/cost due to going through an outside contractor.)

Right, so you've got two minutes to show what the game is about. The most straightforward approach to doing this is to hit on the so-called "game verbs". In other words, explain what you - the player - does in the game. EXPLORE. TRADE. DESIGN. FIGHT. You know, all the good stuff. And show how it feels to do it. Note that there's a very important distinction between expressing "how it feels" and "show exactly how it works in comprehensive unedited real-time documentation". You simply can't do the latter because there's no time and it destroys pacing; the rhythm of watching a 2 minute video and playing an N hours game are completely different. Again, if you want to show the latter in comprehensive form, a valuable and worthwhile move, then that goes into a supplementary video about gameplay.

Indeed, combat is the aspect of Starsector that is the most exciting and shows itself off in video the best so it's got to be the climax of the video. Cruising around planets also looks pretty good, but it's not particularly given to exciting moments like landing a spread of Reapers home on an enemy capital ship. So by necessity the other features come first then the combat scenes build to a climactic explosion last. It's just so structurally easy and powerful to do it that way given the material at-hand.

To review, a primary promo trailer must:

Any primary promo trailer for any game (that doesn't have an enormous presence/marketing budget to do something different) will more or less follow those points. Supplementary trailers may be made that focus more on some sub-point, like a particular game verb, or character, or deep look into an aspect of gameplay. But those all come later, if at all.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 16, 2016, 12:56:52 PM
Heh, all too often trailers are very carefully tailored to create situations that would almost never occur when played normally. Just look at all of No Man's Sky trailers—they created special assets and scripted events just for their trailers!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 17, 2016, 04:39:49 AM
To review, a primary promo trailer must:

Something that I often see, that is missing from this trailer:

- Good sounding (out of context) quotes from the press
"...very compelling. I’m keen to see more." - RockPaperShotgun
"...depth and variance..." - Eurogamer
"...a ton of longevity and depth..." TotalBiscuit
(all real quotes btw)


- Name dropping disguised as listing "inspirations"
 "Inspired by Mount&Blade, Mechwarrior, MoO2 and of course No Man's Sky!"
No idea if this could run into legal trouble, though.


Or ideally a combination of both.

It might seem a bit cheap, but from what I observed it works really great for getting people interested. Especially the name dropping engages people emotionally as "game verbs" never could. Although I'm not sure if it helps to sell the game or just gets them talking about those old games :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Questionable on December 17, 2016, 06:28:07 AM
Gothars, I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or not, since the things you are mentioned are treated with despise by many people who are not new to the gaming industry.
People hate quotes by somebody they don't give a *** about. People hate No Mans Lie and it's one of the lowest rated games on steam. I mean y...you are being sarcastic right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dogthing on December 17, 2016, 11:05:55 AM
and of course No Man's Sky!"

I've finally decided to stop lurking this forum, but only to say this post almost had me
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 17, 2016, 11:10:16 AM
Quality work, Gothars.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on December 18, 2016, 12:52:24 AM
How much have you changed the apogee... don't hurt my baby
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Originem on December 18, 2016, 01:22:04 AM
Well I have a QUESTION.
Will you fix the bug that beam has, like the wired charge time, wired fire at full charge?
The weapon's progress bar is always wired when is forced to stop.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jude on December 18, 2016, 03:51:45 AM
- Good sounding (out of context) quotes from the press

I rather like what Toby did with the Undertale steam page, in that he went to 10/10 reviews and found the worst part.
Spoiler
(http://puu.sh/sTsYR/8c2d7765f6.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 18, 2016, 11:04:46 AM
How much have you changed the apogee... don't hurt my baby

Haven't nerfed it yet. <pats nerf bat>


Well I have a QUESTION.
Will you fix the bug that beam has, like the wired charge time, wired fire at full charge?
The weapon's progress bar is always wired when is forced to stop.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think so, yes, as I do remember fixing a beam weapon bug that sounds like it could be this. And I seem to remember you PMing me about it. So: not 100% sure, but I think so.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on December 18, 2016, 03:24:28 PM
How much have you changed the apogee... don't hurt my baby

Haven't nerfed it yet. <pats nerf bat>


oh god...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Originem on December 18, 2016, 10:33:20 PM

Well I have a QUESTION.
Will you fix the bug that beam has, like the wired charge time, wired fire at full charge?
The weapon's progress bar is always wired when is forced to stop.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but I think so, yes, as I do remember fixing a beam weapon bug that sounds like it could be this. And I seem to remember you PMing me about it. So: not 100% sure, but I think so.

Well, waiting for the update. ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Serenitis on December 19, 2016, 05:49:13 AM
Risk of accidents resulting in small losses of crew; mitigated by having heavy machinery
So, we're now carrying around a 3rd stack of resources for something that was already covered by having a stock of supplies?
Seems like increasing complexity for it's own sake tbh.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 19, 2016, 06:04:05 AM
Risk of accidents resulting in small losses of crew; mitigated by having heavy machinery
So, we're now carrying around a 3rd stack of resources for something that was already covered by having a stock of supplies?
Seems like increasing complexity for it's own sake tbh.

But it was not "already covered" with supplies, since scavenging (of a debris field) is a new mechanic. And heavy machines are also needed for surveying, where they are not consumed. I'd assume that's the same here. So it's something you'd load to specialize your fleet, not a requirement.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 19, 2016, 08:18:51 AM
I don't like it either.  Organizationally, it's a pain having something you want to sell some of but not all of...

It's not specialization - when you're scrambling for money early on most players are at least going to try their hand at scavenging - and carrying heavy machinery for it will basically be mandatory.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on December 19, 2016, 09:56:57 AM
interesting that alex would decide to make this in particular consume a different commodity while everything else are just supplies. I mean, marines don't need hand weapons and crew don't need food and recreational drugs, why the distinction?

not that I mind, it's just an interesting line to draw
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on December 19, 2016, 09:58:09 AM
Heh, since heavy machine stuff was already a common drop from fights, I always seemed to be carrying around a stack of the stuff anyways. So, this won't affect me!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on December 19, 2016, 10:27:33 AM
Heh, since heavy machine stuff was already a common drop from fights, I always seemed to be carrying around a stack of the stuff anyways. So, this won't affect me!
I'm kinda in this boat too, but I'd also like to note that Jangala is often a decent place to pick Heavy Machinery up, and look, it's right at your starting location!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DatonKallandor on December 19, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
interesting that alex would decide to make this in particular consume a different commodity while everything else are just supplies. I mean, marines don't need hand weapons and crew don't need food and recreational drugs, why the distinction?

not that I mind, it's just an interesting line to draw


Probably so you can have a consumable that doesn't kill the player when it runs out but is still used up when doing an optional thing. The same reason you don't just have "crew" and there's a separate boarding consumable version of crew.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ChaseBears on December 19, 2016, 12:43:09 PM
Well the thing is, mechanically it's almost identical to supplies.  Unlike Marines it uses the same game mechanics (cargo space) and both supplies and heavy machinery are commonly available.  So in the end it is just a cr cost, and a storage space cost, both of which can be handled by supplies.

Another difference is that marines are entirely intentional. They're surplus to requirements and you buy them specifically for boarding.  Heavy Machinery is something you get by looting so you arn't acquiring it for any specific purpose, it's just you are tying up cargo space and capital on the change it will pay off - if you need the CR you can always sell the machinery after all.

A "Salvage Experts" or "EVA Specialists" crew that would give you bonuses to salvaging and wouldn't have a micro tax since you wouldn't need to balance offloading your loot with the need of machinery for salvage.

The killing the player is a feature not a bug, since if supplies are scarce after a battle you might have have to sacrifice long term advantage from salvaging expenditures for the short term benefit of reaching port without racking up damage. Or you could choose to take the risk. Isn't that half the point of supplies...?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 19, 2016, 04:54:53 PM
I actually like it if commodities get a tangible use, and are not just meaningless trade items. I hope to see more of that. Maybe you could use passenger ships to provide premium pleasure voyages that use up luxury items and lobsters or something :D

Organizationally, it's a pain having something you want to sell some of but not all of...


That's a good point. If you could somehow set stacks aside that would help.

It's not specialization - when you're scrambling for money early on most players are at least going to try their hand at scavenging - and carrying heavy machinery for it will basically be mandatory.

If they are a must have or not for salvaging depends on the specifics - maybe it's always profitable, and machines are just a way to improve your margin if you spend a lot of time salvaging. I.e., specialize.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on December 19, 2016, 07:12:13 PM
I actually like it if commodities get a tangible use, and are not just meaningless trade items. I hope to see more of that. Maybe you could use passenger ships to provide premium pleasure voyages that use up luxury items and lobsters or something :D

Organizationally, it's a pain having something you want to sell some of but not all of...

That's a good point. If you could somehow set stacks aside that would help.

You totally can set stacks aside. Pick up 10 stacks with shift-click, and instead of selling them, put them in another cargo slot. The only problem is that quick-buying and quick-looting (with ctrl-click or "Loot All") will merge new stuff with the first partial stack. (Pretty sure it's the first)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on December 19, 2016, 07:19:08 PM
yeah, that goes away as soon as you hit the "sort" button though
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Serenitis on December 21, 2016, 09:25:52 AM
But it was not "already covered" with supplies, since scavenging (of a debris field) is a new mechanic. And heavy machines are also needed for surveying, where they are not consumed. I'd assume that's the same here. So it's something you'd load to specialize your fleet, not a requirement.
That's my fault. The way I read it it seemed like another instance of "if you don't have machines with you at all times then bad stuff happens", which is exactly what supplies cover.

So in this case the machinery is treated pretty much as marines are now?

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on December 21, 2016, 11:48:32 AM
Either way, for scavenging it's not a big cost, either in machinery or crew. It's more to give flavor to salvaging and to let you feel like you've prepared for it. The downside to using supplies here is you will always have them on hand.

Especially for surveying, you'll need more stuff and it should encourage more specialization - freighters, ships with surveying-related hullmods, etc. But then surveying is kind of in an odd place without outposts, so I'm sure it'll feel a bit iffy no matter what.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 21, 2016, 03:24:46 PM
It is nice that some commodities have use beyond trade.  Currently, I glaze over commodities that are not supplies or fuel.  It makes no difference to me if commodities are named luxury goods, lobsters, or whatever if they have no use beyond normal trade.

What may be kind of fun is if having hand weapons in your cargo give a small bonus to marines' effectiveness if you bring enough (to arm marines) with you.  Sort of like equipping ships with rifles, grenades, or nerve gas in the game Endless Sky.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Hazard on December 21, 2016, 03:59:39 PM
What may be kind of fun is if having hand weapons in your cargo give a small bonus to marines' effectiveness if you bring enough (to arm marines) with you.  Sort of like equipping ships with rifles, grenades, or nerve gas in the game Endless Sky.
That's doesn't make sense unless you go all in and separate all the things the marines need to board a ship (armor, gear, weapons, marines themselves, etc.), and that would just be pointless extra inventory management.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 21, 2016, 05:43:57 PM
The idea is if hand weapons gave a slight boost to marine power, then the weapons would have a use beyond simple commodity that it virtual indistinguishable from the rest of the commodities that is not fuel, supplies, or (soon) heavy machinery.  The hand weapons could offer a slight upgrade (because their stock weapons are pea-shooters or they have twice the guns and play guns akimbo) to marines, nothing more.  It does not need to be complicated.  If you have the weapons in cargo, marines get a slight power boost.  Otherwise, the marines perform as normal.  Player does not need to carry very many guns unless he plans to board battleships and does not have the Special Ops perk.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on December 21, 2016, 10:14:20 PM
I feel like marines should be assumed to be properly equipped to do their one job. Instead of weapons boosting marines, I'd rather see N weapons allow N crew to act in boarding parties. (Likely at a lower effectiveness than trained marines.) Early game it gives you a discount marines option, and mid-late game it can supplement your marine complement.

I think it's more interesting than "marines + guns = slightly better marines"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on December 21, 2016, 10:26:37 PM
This sounds a lot like complexity for its own sake.  It's a better argument against making heavy machinery a resource than it is for doing it to guns.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on December 21, 2016, 11:48:08 PM
it's not complicated at all

>choose how many crew you would like to send in (if any)
>they are marines at .5x effectiveness

i swear to god this was in the game already in an earlier version, and it worked fine.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on December 22, 2016, 03:35:03 AM
I like the idea of commodities having an in-game purpose, but not so sure that purpose need be as obvious and clinical as 'hand weapons improve boarding strength'.
The benefit to having them available in your cargo hold shouldn't make carrying them mandatory; that just creates extra busy work and power creep.
Instead, their benefit should be incidental; random events & encounters, extra dialogue options, something sufficiently unpredictable that planning for its occurrence is cost prohibitive, but if encountered becomes a happy coincidence.

It'd add a little flavour to cargo types, while also enhancing the narrative and replayability of the campaign.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on December 22, 2016, 05:47:42 AM
The minor boost I had in mind was like from +10% to 25%.  (Special Ops perk gives +100%.)  Yes, marines are already equipped (only they can board ships in the first place), but nothing says you cannot equip them with superior equipment above and beyond the baseline.  Yes, they may become "mandatory" if you board much, and if you have plenty of cargo space.  When I board ships, cargo space is at a premium, I bring three or so Atlas to take all of the loot from multiple battles in hostile systems, and I manage to fill up space after a few encounters.  If weapons boosted marine effectiveness, the trick is to give enough so that it is worth the loss of cargo space, but not too much as to make it mandatory.

Also, hand weapons have the minor problem of being illegal in some factions' space.  If you get cargo scans, you risk losing them.

That said, I do not mind weapons having an additional use aside from boosting marines or mundane trade.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on December 22, 2016, 08:40:43 AM
It would be interesting if the various goods had more of an impact on worlds; for example, smuggling hand weapons could reduce stability more than smuggling food (which might even increase stability, despite being smuggling, if there is a shortage). Explaining all this to the player in an intuitive manner might be difficult though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on December 22, 2016, 09:04:17 AM
Maybe not all commodities need an immediate application. I hope industry will give them more of an identity by making them part of a production chain. For example, hand weapons might be a necessary ingredient to train your own marines.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Darenkel on December 22, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Or have some craftable where "Crew + Hand Weapons = Marines"...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Beobachter on December 23, 2016, 12:48:47 AM
This discussion reminds me of how Failbetter's Sunless Sea handles commodities, casting them as both trade goods and as consumables.

Other ways resources could be used(?)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: hellman-P on December 25, 2016, 01:29:45 PM
I can't wait for this update to realese! ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on January 02, 2017, 06:37:43 PM
Couple of mod-conversion related questions to this these patch notes if you have a free moment. No big deal if you are too busy to reply to this  :)

1) Can I get the .csv file IDs for the heavy mortar, hammer barrage, and devastator cannon?
 
2) Only if spoiler-free answers are possible of course: the new fighter hull IDs?

Trying to get as many files ready as possible and fit the new weapon roles into my current weapon balance ahead of time.

Makes the overall transition to .8a way easier.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ErKeL on January 05, 2017, 08:00:48 PM
Personally I think if hand weapons were to have a use and effect it would be outfitting rebel factions or supplying the legitimate government of a colony.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on January 08, 2017, 11:21:47 AM
Is Advanced Optics going to get an OP price decrease like DTC and ITU?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nader on January 09, 2017, 07:00:48 PM
I remember seeing something about them becoming the Persian league which is coming next patch
The Persean League, yes. (If it helps, I pronounce it "Per-see-an", as in a word derived from the name Perseus.)

How many factions are planned to be in the final game?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on January 09, 2017, 07:39:36 PM
Based on the faction flags in the game folder, it seems like we're getting 2 more; Persean League and Ko Combine.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mini S on January 10, 2017, 10:13:34 AM
Based on the faction flags in the game folder, it seems like we're getting 2 more; Persean League and Ko Combine.

Where do you find the Ko Combine?

Besides the normal factions i only find the Persean League, the Lions Guard and the Knights of Ludd(currently in the game as Luddic Church Military market)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on January 10, 2017, 10:24:16 AM
They don't have a .faction file, but they do have a flag in the logo folder (iirc) in the graphics folder.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nader on January 10, 2017, 07:58:19 PM
Is the Ko Combine a renamed Lion's Guard or vice versa? 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on January 10, 2017, 08:56:45 PM
To my knowledge, Ko Combine and Lion's Guard are completely different factions. Lion's Guard are already in the game as part of the Sindrian Diktat.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on January 12, 2017, 12:15:19 PM
How exactly will the armor changes work? Does that mean that a ship with 1000 armor would always have 50? What about hull mods, would they influence it? And what exactly WAS the equation for armor damage again? ^^;
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on January 12, 2017, 04:31:44 PM
The armor formula is/was:

final damage = (damage)*(damage)/(damage+armor)

(where 'damage' includes boosts/penalties from being HE or Kinetic)

The minimum damage is going to seriously reduce the damage done by low per shot weapons... like lmg's and vulcans.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on January 12, 2017, 09:11:13 PM
Right, yep. And now the armor value in that formula will be max(armor, baseArmor * 0.05) instead.

The minimum damage is going to seriously reduce the damage done by low per shot weapons... like lmg's and vulcans.

As much as that's true, I think it probably affects stuff like the needler (and indeed lmgs more than it does the vulcan. The vulcan's insane vs-hull dps becomes merely very high.


Is Advanced Optics going to get an OP price decrease like DTC and ITU?

Wasn't planning on it, no.


1) Can I get the .csv file IDs for the heavy mortar, hammer barrage, and devastator cannon?


heavymortar, hammerrack, and devastator

2) Only if spoiler-free answers are possible of course: the new fighter hull IDs?

Not possible, I'm afraid :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on January 12, 2017, 10:42:15 PM
hello alex when are you going to update the patch notes thx
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on January 12, 2017, 11:23:25 PM
hello alex when are you going to update the patch notes thx
Now that you've said that, he just most likely set it back a week!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: djcian on January 12, 2017, 11:37:25 PM
hello alex when are you going to update the patch notes thx


how about this,

Alex, are you guys still adding new content and large features to this patch, or are you guys just bug testing and polishing it?

When determining how far away the release is, would you estimate it using days, weeks, or months?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DownTheDrain on January 13, 2017, 09:37:15 AM
When determining how far away the release is, would you estimate it using days, weeks, or months?

Millennia.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Grievous69 on January 13, 2017, 10:25:12 AM
We still have one more blog post ahead of us so it's probably months (maybe just one if we're lucky).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on January 13, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
Supposedly there is one outstanding blog post about one more feature. After that, probably "just" getting ready for release.

But since we're at the release date guessing game again, I'll lock the thread for now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 03:07:40 PM
Updated!

Last major set of changes before the release, but still a few things left. Mainly: a new starting star system (or at least a very close look at doing that), some modding API enhancements (for which I've got a list and will cherry-pick some things from), and of course some more playtesting and polish.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 23, 2017, 03:21:18 PM
I knew it  ;D (that something would change when i hit that refresh button :P)

edit: We can eject crew in cargo pods... Why?  :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 23, 2017, 03:29:01 PM
The hype hurts, Alex! This all sounds so good. Pleased to see some unexpected new ships too, how big is the low-tech carrier? :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on March 23, 2017, 03:32:37 PM
Damn it Alex, i was supposed to go to sleep early today! A bit too sleepy to read all of this in details, but from what i'm seeing, this all sounds pretty good. I'll look into it a bit thoroughly tomorrow.

By the way, does the Hellbore damage per shot was increased to compensate for the reduced ROF? Or is it a straight nerf to it (asides from the flux reduction)? I mean, it's not like it was an amazing weapon to begin with, so it leaves me a bit curious.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 03:34:49 PM
Two questions on the skill revamp:
1) If there are duplicate boosts in the same skill, do they stack or merge? (IE if my mod had a +10% OP at level three computer systems and so did vanilla, would the boost be 10% or 20%?
2) Can Aptitudes still get boosts in mods? Or are they forever empty?

Quote
new starting star system
Oh boy! Is it called Tutorion by any chance? Is this the start of the tutorial rework?

Edit: Also, how are fuel prices and drops now that space is MUCH bigger?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 23, 2017, 03:39:59 PM
Quote
Flux Coil Adjunct, Flux Distributor:

    Cost 4/8/12/20 ordnance points
    Provide dissipation/capacity at 75% efficiency compared to vents and capacitors
    Available from the start
So can you stick multiples of this on, or is it supposed to be a tiny bonus?

Damn it Alex, i was supposed to go to sleep early today! A bit too sleepy to read all of this in details, but from what i'm seeing, this all sounds pretty good. I'll look into it a bit thoroughly tomorrow.

By the way, does the Hellbore damage per shot was increased to compensate for the reduced ROF? Or is it a straight nerf to it (asides from the flux reduction)? I mean, it's not like it was an amazing weapon to begin with, so it leaves me a bit curious.
It says "Overall: low dps, very high per-shot damage, very low flux cost", so I assume it's a straight nerf.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 03:42:43 PM
Quote
Flux Coil Adjunct, Flux Distributor:

    Cost 4/8/12/20 ordnance points
    Provide dissipation/capacity at 75% efficiency compared to vents and capacitors
    Available from the start
So can you stick multiples of this on, or is it supposed to be a tiny bonus?

Damn it Alex, i was supposed to go to sleep early today! A bit too sleepy to read all of this in details, but from what i'm seeing, this all sounds pretty good. I'll look into it a bit thoroughly tomorrow.

By the way, does the Hellbore damage per shot was increased to compensate for the reduced ROF? Or is it a straight nerf to it (asides from the flux reduction)? I mean, it's not like it was an amazing weapon to begin with, so it leaves me a bit curious.
It says "Overall: low dps, very high per-shot damage, very low flux cost", so I assume it's a straight nerf.
Pretty sure it is supposed to be a tiny bonus
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: xenoargh on March 23, 2017, 03:49:31 PM
Quote
Apogee: replaced ship system with Active Flair Launcher
Bring it!
(http://blog.eversnapapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/aUyNeZ1390009113.jpg)

This changelog is fricking awesome, btw.  Can't wait to take it for a spin!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 03:50:49 PM
I knew it  ;D (that something would change when i hit that refresh button :P)

:D

edit: We can eject crew in cargo pods... Why?  :)

Sometimes you need to - let's say you've made some bad decisions or had a run of bad luck on a salvage expedition. You're out of fuel, and no-one's answering your distress call. You put some crew in cryosleep in cargo pods, stabilize the pods' orbit so you can find them later, and scuttle some ships. Extracting antimatter from their reactors provides some improvised fuel - enough to limp back to safety, and then eventually return for your crew.


The hype hurts, Alex! This all sounds so good. Pleased to see some unexpected new ships too, how big is the low-tech carrier? :o

Oh, right, that's not mentioned, is it? It's capital-sized, with 4 fighter bays.



By the way, does the Hellbore damage per shot was increased to compensate for the reduced ROF? Or is it a straight nerf to it (asides from the flux reduction)? I mean, it's not like it was an amazing weapon to begin with, so it leaves me a bit curious.

More or less. I think it was too good before for the OP cost; rather than raise the OP cost, decided to make it into a specialist weapon. The overall flux/second is very low - especially due to the rate of fire reduction - so I think it remains a relevant choice. (Btw: kind of enjoying the new visuals for it. Can't miss seeing it firing at you now, and makes it feel just that much more powerful.)



Two questions on the skill revamp:
1) If there are duplicate boosts in the same skill, do they stack or merge? (IE if my mod had a +10% OP at level three computer systems and so did vanilla, would the boost be 10% or 20%?

Stack, but how they do is up to the mod. Generally speaking, the idea is that increases should be additive, while reductions should be multiplicative, to avoid stats getting out of hand.

For example, +50% and +50% should give +100%, while -50% and -50% should reduce the value by 3/4ths.

2) Can Aptitudes still get boosts in mods? Or are they forever empty?

They can.

Oh boy! Is it called Tutorion by any chance? Is this the start of the tutorial rework?

:-\ (Yes, but not 100% committing to it. Which is to say I have every intention of doing it, but we'll see how time-consuming it ends up being.)

Edit: Also, how are fuel prices and drops now that space is MUCH bigger?

In playtesting so far - pretty good, I think? Will take some more tuning for sure (both between now and the release, and naturally also *after* the release based on feedback) but in general there's a *lot* of stuff to find. And, a lot of it results in you getting free stuff.


Quote
Flux Coil Adjunct, Flux Distributor:
    Cost 4/8/12/20 ordnance points
    Provide dissipation/capacity at 75% efficiency compared to vents and capacitors
    Available from the start
So can you stick multiples of this on, or is it supposed to be a tiny bonus?

Just one, like all the other hullmods. It's 30% of what you get from maxed vents/capacitors, so I wouldn't call it tiny. It's not huge, but it's quite significant.

Quote
Apogee: replaced ship system with Active Flair Launcher
Bring it!

... crap.

This changelog is fricking awesome, btw.  Can't wait to take it for a spin!

:) !!! Can't wait to get it out there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 04:02:47 PM
Another question (sorry): Do hull mods need any changes to add into .8? If so, then what? Code? Art? I know they can be found in the wild
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 04:13:25 PM
Another question (sorry): Do hull mods need any changes to add into .8? If so, then what? Code? Art? I know they can be found in the wild

The cargo icon for hullmods is a composite of a base icon and the hullmod's icon, so no new art is required.

As far as adding them to the campaign, the .faction files have a section for hullmods the faction may sell. Modspecs will also occasionally drop from ships with those hullmods mounted.


P.S. Questions are totally welcome and in fact encouraged :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 23, 2017, 04:21:21 PM
P.S. Questions are totally welcome and in fact encouraged :)
What da zog is a Phase Charge Launcher? Is it a weapon that fires missiles/mines which can hit phased ships?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
What da zog is a Phase Charge Launcher? Is it a weapon that fires missiles/mines which can hit phased ships?

Ohh, I meant the "proximity charge launcher". Used to be named "phase charge launcher" a while back.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 23, 2017, 04:23:49 PM
I guess I can't trust the wiki, currently it says the flux/s is 533 on the Mjolnir Cannon and 550 on the Hellbore... ???

Really glad to see some new ship hulls (especially a new capital ship) even though they are just carriers, maybe I will try piloting one. Any hidden or REDACTED hulls that might make it into this release? :D

The course setting feature seems like it'll be a great addition and should cut down on the amount of times one has to open the map to reorient.

About how valuable are we talking with class 5 planet data? Enough to buy a shiny new destroyer or something?

Anyways, a lot of digest here and super excited that we must really be getting close to release now! I'll surely have a few more questions later on...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 04:26:14 PM
Really glad to see some new ship hulls (especially a new capital ship) even though they are just carriers, maybe I will try piloting one. Any hidden or REDACTED hulls that might make it into this release? :D

It's not just a carrier, it's a battlecarrier.

About how valuable are we talking with class 5 planet data? Enough to buy a shiny new destroyer or something?

Currently? Enough several times over. Might tone that down a bit, though. Then again, we're talking maybe a dozen planets like that in the entire Sector.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 04:29:50 PM
I guess I can't trust the wiki, currently it says the flux/s is 533 on the Mjolnir Cannon and 550 on the Hellbore... ???

Really glad to see some new ship hulls (especially a new capital ship) even though they are just carriers, maybe I will try piloting one. Any hidden or REDACTED hulls that might make it into this release? :D

The course setting feature seems like it'll be a great addition and should cut down on the amount of times one has to open the map to reorient.

About how valuable are we talking with class 5 planet data? Enough to buy a shiny new destroyer or something?

Anyways, a lot of digest here and super excited that we must really be getting close to release now! I'll surely have a few more questions later on...
I would hope that class 5 would mean like a fully fitted Paragon as I would think that is a Paradise level world

Annnnd that brings another question! Could we mod in something that allows us to exchange survey data for something other than credits?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 23, 2017, 04:32:22 PM
Modding
  • Station weapons now render above all station modules
RIP Nemean Lion?

I guess I can't trust the wiki, currently it says the flux/s is 533 on the Mjolnir Cannon and 550 on the Hellbore... ???
Different measures - the wiki is giving you flux per second, while Alex' listing was flux per shot.  They're both right.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 04:34:10 PM
Annnnd that brings another question! Could we mod in something that allows us to exchange survey data for something other than credits?

Certainly. There are other REDACTED that in fact do REDACTED in a related manner.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 04:34:51 PM
I guess I can't trust the wiki, currently it says the flux/s is 533 on the Mjolnir Cannon and 550 on the Hellbore... ???
Different measures - the wiki is giving you flux per second, while Alex' listing was flux per shot.  They're both right.
Wiki is outdated and not well maintained
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 23, 2017, 04:37:28 PM
Are there any skills which give your ships bonus OP, or effective bonus OP a la the old Ordinance Expertise?

If modspecs can be dropped from ships which have that hullmod installed, can you potentially get a Heavy Ballistics Integration hullmod from killing lots of Conquests?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 04:41:37 PM
Are there any skills which give your ships bonus OP, or effective bonus OP a la the old Ordinance Expertise?

Yeah, there's one skill in Technology that gives +10% OP alongside modest increases to max vents/capacitors.

If modspecs can be dropped from ships which have that hullmod installed, can you potentially get a Heavy Ballistics Integration hullmod from killing lots of Conquests?

Negative - built-in hullmods can't drop.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 04:49:56 PM
Annnnd that brings another question! Could we mod in something that allows us to exchange survey data for something other than credits?

Certainly. There are other REDACTED that in fact do REDACTED in a related manner.
Damnit Alex, stop being such a Hypester and RELEASE THE BEAST! Leave all the play testing to us!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on March 23, 2017, 05:02:43 PM
Modding
  • Station weapons now render above all station modules
RIP Nemean Lion?
Not really, the current setup using twiglib already required some shenanigans to make everything render in the right order, and I actually won't have much to change to adapt it to the modules.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 23, 2017, 05:06:28 PM
Modding
  • Station weapons now render above all station modules
RIP Nemean Lion?
Not really, the current setup using twiglib already required some shenanigans to make everything render in the right order, and I actually won't have much to change to adapt it to the modules.
Well that's good to hear!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 05:06:40 PM
Alex, Can we adjust the cost of the D mod removal? I can't remember if you said we could or not. Also if you can: would it be per the settings file or per station? (or both?)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 23, 2017, 05:08:45 PM
Quote
Neutrino Detector ability (requires Sensors skill)

    Detect entities anywhere in-system
Please define entity.

Quote
Tempest: increased shield arc to 120 degrees (was 90)
I'm seeing a bunch of Tempest buffs. Did you feel it was underperforming?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 23, 2017, 05:30:47 PM
Quote
Tempest: increased shield arc to 120 degrees (was 90)
I'm seeing a bunch of Tempest buffs. Did you feel it was underperforming?
I'd be willing to bet that the Tempest is one of the ships that got a smaller than 10% increase to its ordnance points, though, and the new drone is much less of a distraction / built-in wingman than the previous version.  So I guess we'll see.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 05:33:47 PM
Alex, Can we adjust the cost of the D mod removal? I can't remember if you said we could or not. Also if you can: would it be per the settings file or per station? (or both?)

Some related multipliers in settings, yeah.

Quote
Neutrino Detector ability (requires Sensors skill)

    Detect entities anywhere in-system
Please define entity.

Intentionally ambiguous! The tooltip is a bit more specific.

Basically: all sorts of stuff, from fleets to salvage stuff to planets and stations to false readings.

Quote
Tempest: increased shield arc to 120 degrees (was 90)
I'm seeing a bunch of Tempest buffs. Did you feel it was underperforming?

That was more for gameplay reasons, arc was just a bit too narrow and it kept getting hit directly by stuff it "shouldn't" be hit by, it felt like.

Balance-wise, it may warrant a cost increase, but we'll see. The new Terminator drone is not a straight buff - sure, it sounds impressive on paper, but a lot of the benefit of the previous iteration was just how badly it messed up the enemy AI. The new one doesn't do that, *plus* the AI is better at dealing with that sort of thing anyhow. And an Active Flare Launcher, while fun, isn't exactly a high value-add for the Tempest.

I'd be willing to bet that the Tempest is one of the ships that got a smaller than 10% increase to its ordnance points

It got right around 10% - 45 to 50. But, yeah, spot on re: distraction value.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 23, 2017, 05:46:28 PM
Somehow, through all this awesome stuff, the one that gets me the most is "Weapons with recoil now retract their barrels while ship is venting". It's the little details like that which make Starsector an incredible game.  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 05:48:57 PM
Somehow, through all this awesome stuff, the one that gets me the most is "Weapons with recoil now retract their barrels while ship is venting". It's the little details like that which make Starsector an incredible game.  ;D

Cycerin's suggestion, iirc :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 23, 2017, 06:14:01 PM
I'm kinda bad at math so what happens when you've got Armored Mounts that slow turret speed by 25% and then add Advanced Gyros that speeds up by 50%? I thought it'd be a net gain of 25% faster turrets but what about the new stacking rules and such?

Does this new battlecarrier have at least 1 large ballistic turret? Or does it blow its load on large missiles, flight decks and lots of smaller mounts like the Mora?

So the big Apogee nerf was only gaining 5 more OP as compensation for the overall OP reduction? Hrrm, well I guess it loses its range booster drones too (unless they are built-in now?).

Did the Storm Needler really need the 100 range nerf? You give it somewhat usable flux stats but then you taketh away...

But hey, this means you're damn close to releasing this beast ya?! Just some final polish and playtesting, eh?!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 06:40:57 PM
I'm kinda bad at math so what happens when you've got Armored Mounts that slow turret speed by 25% and then add Advanced Gyros that speeds up by 50%? I thought it'd be a net gain of 25% faster turrets but what about the new stacking rules and such?

1 (base) * 1.5 (gyros) * 0.75 (armored mounts) = 1.125, or a 12.5% bonus.

Does this new battlecarrier have at least 1 large ballistic turret? Or does it blow its load on large missiles, flight decks and lots of smaller mounts like the Mora?

You'll have to see it to get all the details, but let's just say it's got plenty of firepower and a good balance of ballistics vs missiles.

So the big Apogee nerf was only gaining 5 more OP as compensation for the overall OP reduction? Hrrm, well I guess it loses its range booster drones too (unless they are built-in now?).

No sensor drones, right. That's a pretty big deal.

Did the Storm Needler really need the 100 range nerf? You give it somewhat usable flux stats but then you taketh away...

It really did, yeah. It's somewhat unique among longer-ranged kinetic weapons in that it deals its damage over time rather than a burst, making it very difficult to avoid taking on shields.


But hey, this means you're damn close to releasing this beast ya?! Just some final polish and playtesting, eh?!

"just"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 23, 2017, 06:46:02 PM
Did the Storm Needler really need the 100 range nerf? You give it somewhat usable flux stats but then you taketh away...

It really did, yeah. It's somewhat unique among longer-ranged kinetic weapons in that it deals its damage over time rather than a burst, making it very difficult to avoid taking on shields.
Honestly, I'd say it's still a net buff - in the current game the Storm Needler is basically unusable; the reduced flux cost should make it something that's actually sane to mount on some builds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Seifer on March 23, 2017, 07:06:37 PM
"Significant performance improvements"
I'm excited about this xD my computer is 2013 old and suffers with several mods added, so improvements are greatly appreciated ^^ I'm really hyped for the update to come, and I would like to thank the devs and modders who make the game grow and become the Starsector it needs to be :) I always come back and have great fun starting a new campaign, playing hours like a maniac lol. Have a sweet night :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 23, 2017, 07:11:02 PM
I'm curious if it's actually a net performance boost or if the massive expansion of the game world (and thus many more fleets and other things to sim) kinda negates it all. Not that it really matters to me as I keep my hardware up to date, though! >8D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 07:14:44 PM
I'm curious if it's actually a net performance boost or if the massive expansion of the game world (and thus many more fleets and other things to sim) kinda negates it all. Not that it really matters to me as I keep my hardware up to date, though! >8D
I think Alex has said that it is about a 30%? increase?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 23, 2017, 07:19:43 PM
So Alex, how many lines of code is Starsector up to now? And how often are you able to copy/paste a decent amount of code when implementing a new feature?

Also, for David, about how long does it take you to finalize a frigate sized hull, a capital sized? About 3-5 hours of total work? I'd imagine you've gotten super proficient at busting out ships at this point!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on March 23, 2017, 07:27:06 PM
Did the Storm Needler really need the 100 range nerf? You give it somewhat usable flux stats but then you taketh away...

It really did, yeah. It's somewhat unique among longer-ranged kinetic weapons in that it deals its damage over time rather than a burst, making it very difficult to avoid taking on shields.
Honestly, I'd say it's still a net buff - in the current game the Storm Needler is basically unusable; the reduced flux cost should make it something that's actually sane to mount on some builds.

Well that and Mjolnir nerf might make it not the objectively correct choice for every large ballistic slot that wasn't OP-constrained.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 07:40:19 PM
I'm curious if it's actually a net performance boost or if the massive expansion of the game world (and thus many more fleets and other things to sim) kinda negates it all. Not that it really matters to me as I keep my hardware up to date, though! >8D
I think Alex has said that it is about a 30%? increase?

... something like that, probably. It's hard to say exactly and it's system-dependent too. I will say that the expansion of the game world didn't have as much of an impact on performance as one might guess, and many of the "extra" fleets are handled in a way where they're not simulated to nearly the same degree unless they're nearby.

It's also up to mods to use some of these new features if they want to add lots more fleets; otherwise performance might suffer.

So Alex, how many lines of code is Starsector up to now? And how often are you able to copy/paste a decent amount of code when implementing a new feature?

No idea! I've wondered about that, but not curious enough to take time to actually get a LOC count. Re: copy/pasting, that's kind of an impossible question to answer. It's just a normal part of coding, so it's not like it "saves time"; it's just how one works.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 23, 2017, 08:27:33 PM
Have ship market prices been adjusted at all? Like say the Onslaught being made more expensive?

Wasn't there gonna be a new defensive-type destroyer or does the Drover somehow fill that slot in? Simply not enough time to squeeze that into this patch?

No tweaks to the Hephaestus Assault Gun, eh? You thinking it's in a pretty okay spot with the nerfs to Hellbore and Mjolnir?

Finally, are you gonna commish a new trailer? Seems like this patch would deserve one... :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on March 23, 2017, 08:35:07 PM
a picket destroyer would maybe be interesting, though without it's own specialized AI profile maybe not too useful.

when are we getting anti-phase depth charges anyway
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on March 23, 2017, 08:39:50 PM
Generally a beam based ship can be a good defense vs. phase ships.

EDIT: Are cargo pods created by just dragging the item you want in them with some supplies into the discard section? Or is there another section entirely for that?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: RickyRio on March 23, 2017, 08:59:39 PM
New/adjusted hullmods:
  • Expanded Missile Racks:
    • Now increases missile ammo by 100% (was: 75%)
    • Ordnance point cost increased substantially
    • One-shot Reaper torpedo launcher now has a 5 second cooldown

Interesting, Did you find that missiles felt a bit less powerful with the removal of +1 missile ammo? or was this just in response to +75% not being very useful on many launcher ammo counts?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 23, 2017, 09:07:43 PM
New/adjusted hullmods:
  • Expanded Missile Racks:
    • Now increases missile ammo by 100% (was: 75%)
    • Ordnance point cost increased substantially
    • One-shot Reaper torpedo launcher now has a 5 second cooldown

*grabs by the color, shaking and screaming* tell me you left my atropos kite viable! Tell me!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 23, 2017, 09:10:21 PM
Quote
Removed CR reduction for hull damage taken in combat

This makes me very happy!

Quote
Transverse Jump ability:
Jump into systems using nascent gravity wells
Jump to hyperspace from anywhere in-system without using a jump-point (costs fuel and a bit of CR)
Unlocked by level 3 Navigation skill
Neutrino Detector ability (requires Sensors skill)
Detect entities anywhere in-system

Can the AI also use this? If so, doesn't it become mandatory for the player to also have Transverse Jump, so they can chase targets that do it?  And does the AI spam the Neutrino detector? If so, does that basically kill the stealth/smuggling playstyle?

[Edit] And before I forget, tons of stuff looks amazing! I'm looking forward to having a carrier fleet of doom again!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 23, 2017, 09:12:24 PM
Alex, are you secretly really kinky or something because this release is such a ***-tease I'm getting blue-balled.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on March 23, 2017, 09:26:16 PM
Added "enableUIStaticNoise" setting to data/config/settings.json to disable UI static noise overlay
Thank you!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 09:30:40 PM
Have ship market prices been adjusted at all? Like say the Onslaught being made more expensive?

Yes specifically re: Onslaught. Haven't messed with the prices much aside from that.

Wasn't there gonna be a new defensive-type destroyer or does the Drover somehow fill that slot in? Simply not enough time to squeeze that into this patch?

Not sure what you mean, nothing comes to mind.

No tweaks to the Hephaestus Assault Gun, eh? You thinking it's in a pretty okay spot with the nerfs to Hellbore and Mjolnir?

Nope! I think it might be in a decent place, but as always we'll see. As you point out, these changes help clarify its niche.

Finally, are you gonna commish a new trailer? Seems like this patch would deserve one... :o

No, though yeah it kinda does. Mostly just not enough time to squeeze that in as well.



EDIT: Are cargo pods created by just dragging the item you want in them with some supplies into the discard section?

Yep. It's been renamed "Eject", btw.


Interesting, Did you find that missiles felt a bit less powerful with the removal of +1 missile ammo? or was this just in response to +75% not being very useful on many launcher ammo counts?

More just experimenting with stuff - doubling the ammo for some specific missiles is neat, and hopefully with the changes to missile skills and the increase in cost for missile racks, hopefully it won't be overpowered.

*grabs by the color, shaking and screaming* tell me you left my atropos kite viable! Tell me!

Probably? It's probably better, really - more OP, sure, but also more Atropos..es? Atropi? Atropen?

Can the AI also use this? If so, doesn't it become mandatory for the player to also have Transverse Jump, so they can chase targets that do it?  And does the AI spam the Neutrino detector? If so, does that basically kill the stealth/smuggling playstyle?

Both are player-only abilities. So is Sustained Burn, actually, at least for the moment.

[Edit] And before I forget, tons of stuff looks amazing! I'm looking forward to having a carrier fleet of doom again!

Thank you!

@cjusa: 511 man, 511.


Added "enableUIStaticNoise" setting to data/config/settings.json to disable UI static noise overlay
Thank you!

:)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gourdman on March 23, 2017, 09:37:16 PM
Really excited for this release, Alex.  Gonna be able to put all the mods down and enjoy the game for a good while like you intended.  Keep it up and don't worry about that release date!
Make it good, and keep giving us tantalizing and uninformative details.  Mmm.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 09:41:44 PM
Thanks for your support! Also, welcome to the forum, at least in a non-lurking capacity :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Swizzlewizzle on March 23, 2017, 09:48:47 PM
Alex, RE: performance...

I'm assuming (and correct me if i'm wrong), that the primary bottleneck in running larger fleet battles and maintaining a decent FPS is on the CPU side, seeing as how - at least from what i've read - the engine SS is based on is single-threaded. I've noticed that, especially missile simulation and pathfinding/collision, has the potential to cause the SIM to crawl, even with just a few hundred on screen.

Is this potentially a bottleneck that will be chipped away at before release? I mean, i'm assuming that the engine *can* technically put processes on different threads (and probably does have some AI stuff on separate threads?).... just seems a shame that we have all of these high tech 12+ core CPUs but end up bottlenecked the same as a 2 core CPU in a format where we should be able to simulate hundreds of ships fighting each other.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 23, 2017, 10:04:24 PM
Unfortunately, it's really not that simple. First of all, it seems to me to be closer to 50/50 between cpu and graphics card in terms of performance bottlenecks.

Second, changing the engine code to be able to support this is extremely non-trivial. It's the sort of undertaking that could sink a project - code complexity goes through the roof, debugging becomes many times more difficult, and performance gains may not even materialize.

Some things are naturally well-suited for being multi-threaded. For example, music playback happens on another thread - it just does its thing, and the main thread doesn't need to worry about it. Other things, less so - threads have to wait for each other to get to the same place, sync up, share data, etc. So even if you have say two threads doing work instead of one, chances are you're not getting anywhere near double the performance.

Finally, it's the sort of performance optimization that's not actually very useful because it doesn't do much for the worst case, which I think is what really matters. Sure, a monster PC will (potentially, if all the other problems didn't exist) reach dizzying heights - but it was already running the game fine, while a PC that was struggling won't be helped much at all. Spending time on optimizations that primarily affect the high-end doesn't seem very worthwhile.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on March 23, 2017, 10:41:48 PM
Also, for David, about how long does it take you to finalize a frigate sized hull, a capital sized? About 3-5 hours of total work? I'd imagine you've gotten super proficient at busting out ships at this point!

Uhhhh, hmm. It kinda depends. Sometimes it goes faster, sometimes slower. Your estimate is not far off, though a big capital (or god help me, a station) takes rather longer, of course. Also depends a bit on how much I copypasta my own stuff from old ships. Also depends on how generally unique the ship is. And if I'm doing a set of visually related ships all in one go they'll go faster as I'm deep into the style, though this isn't usually the case.

Fighters, of course, are almost instant to draw. The real issue with them tends to be thinking up a design. And yeah, frigates are quick, but it's becoming more and more important that they become distinct from everything that's already been done, so I have to put a bit more thought into them.

(I do actually track numbers for time worked on ships vs. other stuff, but it's just a monthly total and not actually broken down per-ship, so I don't have a cool statistic for you.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 23, 2017, 11:35:39 PM
Both are player-only abilities. So is Sustained Burn, actually, at least for the moment.


this worries me, especially if we're gonna be flying around the sector under SB and seeing everyone else in normal burn drive
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 23, 2017, 11:43:51 PM
Both are player-only abilities. So is Sustained Burn, actually, at least for the moment.


this worries me, especially if we're gonna be flying around the sector under SB and seeing everyone else in normal burn drive
I think it is to prevent ganks from the AI like with E burn now. And also to prevent bounties from just "NOPE"ing out
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 23, 2017, 11:50:26 PM
I think it is to prevent ganks from the AI like with E burn now. And also to prevent bounties from just "NOPE"ing out
There's a time delay as well as a fleet slowdown before the +10 Burn buff takes place, so you can't just NOPE out of any situation with Sustained Burn.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on March 24, 2017, 12:07:06 AM
Who needs a brothel when you can visit this thread for a good time.

Changelog looks fantastic. Really, really looking forward it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Surge on March 24, 2017, 12:19:50 AM
Christ Alex, I had to stop reading halfway through before the hype killed me. I can't wait to get my hands on this patch.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on March 24, 2017, 12:21:41 AM
Am I the only person who feels carrier distribution between tech levels is backwards? Low-tech now has 3. Midline has 2. High-tech has 1. This is of course discounting not-real-carriers like Gemini and Odyssey.

On the other hand, 6 out of 14 strike craft are high-tech, and it is also the only tech level that fields shielded strike craft.

Yes, the Astral is the pinnacle of carrier design, but high-tech has nothing for fleets smaller than an armada; whereas both low-tech and midline have carriers for most fleet sizes. Unless there are smaller high-tech carriers still under wraps?

Now that fighters can only be fielded with carriers, it would be a damn shame if smaller high-tech fleets either can't field strike craft or must use lower tech carriers (granted the Heron fulfills high-tech's mobility doctrine pretty well, here's hoping the Drover does too).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SeinTa on March 24, 2017, 12:54:58 AM
Quote
Added "Distress Call" player ability; may result in friendly fleet arriving with some fuel or supplies

I had a good chuckle, got the feeling there might be pirates answering it as well?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 24, 2017, 01:02:40 AM
Quote
Added "Distress Call" player ability; may result in friendly fleet arriving with some fuel or supplies

I had a good chuckle, got the feeling there might be pirates answering it as well?
Yeah I can see this being used by someone *coughmegascough* to draw in fleets to make a big(ger) fight
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: sycspysycspy on March 24, 2017, 01:11:32 AM
Are there any skills which give your ships bonus OP, or effective bonus OP a la the old Ordinance Expertise?

Yeah, there's one skill in Technology that gives +10% OP alongside modest increases to max vents/capacitors.

If modspecs can be dropped from ships which have that hullmod installed, can you potentially get a Heavy Ballistics Integration hullmod from killing lots of Conquests?

Negative - built-in hullmods can't drop.

So for conquest Heavy Ballistics Integration hullmod would bring 40 effecitve OP if the player choose to have 4 large ballistic weapons installed. And you reduced its OP by 30 so overall the conquest class would get 10 more OP in the event of having 4 large ballistic weaspons installed. I kinda feel bad for it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 24, 2017, 02:09:49 AM
Am I the only person who feels carrier distribution between tech levels is backwards? Low-tech now has 3. Midline has 2. High-tech has 1. This is of course discounting not-real-carriers like Gemini and Odyssey.

On the other hand, 6 out of 14 strike craft are high-tech, and it is also the only tech level that fields shielded strike craft.

Just curious, how are you defining "strike craft" here? I presume not just fighters, because I'm looking at Starsector's current fighters, and those numbers don't add up. Are you including things like the Hyperion and Tempest?

EDIT: On a personal note and for the sake of discussion, I treat the Dagger as a midline fighter, so I'm not convinced high-tech has a monopoly on shielded fighters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: MesoTroniK on March 24, 2017, 02:31:02 AM
It is high tech, the hull and engine styles don't lie.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on March 24, 2017, 03:39:22 AM
Am I the only person who feels carrier distribution between tech levels is backwards? Low-tech now has 3. Midline has 2. High-tech has 1. This is of course discounting not-real-carriers like Gemini and Odyssey.

On the other hand, 6 out of 14 strike craft are high-tech, and it is also the only tech level that fields shielded strike craft.

Just curious, how are you defining "strike craft" here? I presume not just fighters, because I'm looking at Starsector's current fighters, and those numbers don't add up. Are you including things like the Hyperion and Tempest?

EDIT: On a personal note and for the sake of discussion, I treat the Dagger as a midline fighter, so I'm not convinced high-tech has a monopoly on shielded fighters.

The next patch will include two more strike craft (Claw and Khopesh, the former is high-tech and the latter is midline).

And yeah the Dagger's definitely high-tech based on aesthetics. Khopesh will be the midline bomber.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 24, 2017, 03:50:40 AM
Very interesting changes again, many more then I expected to see before the update.

Quote
Target fleets now hide out outside the core worlds area and tend to favor star systems that are also otherwise interesting

That's good. Recently I've been thinking that a key to good open-world game design is not to plaster the place with stuff to do and mark it all on a map, but do lay loose threads between points of interest. If you finish one thing and "naturally" stumble upon the next interesting thing, it feels much more like exploration and as if you have real agency.

Quote
Can click minimap in intel message detail to switch to map tab showing location that was on miniamp

I appreciate this kind of UI polish!


Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on March 24, 2017, 04:35:53 AM
That's good. Recently I've been thinking that a key to good open-world game design is not to plaster the place with stuff to do and mark it all on a map, but do lay loose threads between points of interest. If you finish one thing and "naturally" stumble upon the next interesting thing, it feels much more like exploration and as if you have real agency.

Yeah, the Elder Scrolls games do this excellently.
I also like the approach that Freelancer and the various Evochron games took; making exploration be about the journey as much as the destination, and have it be time consuming and dangerous.

Horizon Zero Dawn, and Mass Effect Andromeda on the other hand.... They both suffer from what i call Assassin's Creed syndrome.
The player doesn't explore the world, they just move from quest marker to quest marker like a preprogrammed robot, there's no journey, no incidental discovery, no surprise, just a load of copy/pasted content dumps.
It's especially damning for ME:A, as it was heralded as having exploration components.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Faiter119 on March 24, 2017, 04:42:29 AM
Gotten back into the game lately and I must say you have come a long way :) I've really enjoyed playing and the world feels very alive.

This patch seems dope Alex keep it up!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 24, 2017, 06:11:40 AM
(or god help me, a station)

Haha, but I thought stations would end up fairly symmetrical! You can't just do one quarter of it and then clone/reorient the rest of it into place? But even so, I guess it's possible that just a quarter of a station is rocking more pixels than anything else—can't wait to see the beasts in action!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Orikson on March 24, 2017, 07:57:25 AM
Just asking, what is difference between 'Integrated Targeting Unit' and 'Dedicated Targeting Core' hull mod (both present and future)?

I get that ITU can be installed on any ship, and DTC is exclusive to cruisers and capitals.

But the current patch has the same range buff for cruisers and capitals when using either ITU or DTC, whereby players usually take ITU since it's cheaper.

Based on the notes written, there's more range being give to cruisers and capitals from ITU coming in 0.8.

So what is the relevancy of getting DTC?

Do players have access to it from the get go? Is either ITU or DTC locked behind a skill?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 24, 2017, 08:26:06 AM
Re: Hellbore
I consider it the second-best heavy ballistic, bested only by Mjolnir.  Near top-tier performance for obscenely low OP cost.  So cheap that I will use medium kinetics instead of Mauler (though it I really want Mauler, there is no substitute for Mjolnir as a companion).  Generally better than HAG, and very cheap too.  Great for outfitting Dominator and Onslaught and still have OP to spare.  The only time HAG is useful for all-purpose configuration is if my kinetics are HVDs and I do not have enough Mjolnir to go around.  Although... Hellbore and Arbalest/HVD gives the Conquest that quaint sailing pirate ship feel.

As for the coming Hellbore changes, that sounds like something a flux-starved ship can use.  Without skills, I find heavy weapons too flux hungry and too OP costly (less OP for vents).  Often better to use Mauler and some medium kinetic so unskilled ships can fire and vent spam (although the latter should be gone soon enough).  If ships want old Hellbore-like performance, they will need to go to HAG.


Re: Tempest
I consider Extended Shields almost mandatory on Tempest because it is narrow enough that AI often gets clipped by attacks.  My Tempests last longer with a bigger shield.  Bigger default shield will be nice.


@ Midnight Kitsune:  Somehow, I doubt it will reliably call more hostile reinforcements to make enemy fleets bigger.  If it does not call an enemy defense fleet, it probably will not be useful as a call-to-arms.  Until Starsector features a kill-em-all-conquest mode like Nexerelin, I rarely have incentives to kill random friendlies.  Being locked out of markets due to bad relations kind of hurts.


P.S.
I like the ship limit raise to 30.  Combined with fighters are weapons instead of clogging ship slots, that should help at least level the playing field against endgame AI fleets and maybe enable more fleet action.

Now that fighters can only be fielded with carriers, it would be a damn shame if smaller high-tech fleets either can't field strike craft or must use lower tech carriers (granted the Heron fulfills high-tech's mobility doctrine pretty well, here's hoping the Drover does too).
Do not forget there will be a hullmod that can install a flight deck on non-frigate ships that do not have a deck into an improvised carrier.

One idea I may consider if missiles are still mostly limited, is to give the big ships with OP to burn the flight deck mod as an alternative to Pilum or Salamander missile spam.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on March 24, 2017, 08:49:46 AM
Do not forget there will be a hullmod that can install a flight deck on non-frigate ships that do not have a deck into an improvised carrier.

You're right, but I put that in the same basket as Gemini and Odyssey (i.e. even worse than not-real-carriers). If fighter composition is going to be as important as Alex says then one-deck carriers would likely be very limited offensively (especially since converted hangars has a huge penalty for bombers).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 24, 2017, 09:13:39 AM
Do not forget there will be a hullmod that can install a flight deck on non-frigate ships that do not have a deck into an improvised carrier.

You're right, but I put that in the same basket as Gemini and Odyssey (i.e. even worse than not-real-carriers). If fighter composition is going to be as important as Alex says then one-deck carriers would likely be very limited offensively (especially since converted hangars has a huge penalty for bombers).
No argument there.  Given the changes, I have no idea if adding a deck as a workaround for infinite missiles will be effective.  If it is, you can be sure I will exploit it left-and-right.  If not, I will quickly abandon it.  I probably would not use the deck for bombers, but for interceptors or heavy fighters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 24, 2017, 10:11:44 AM
No argument there.  Given the changes, I have no idea if adding a deck as a workaround for infinite missiles will be effective.  If it is, you can be sure I will exploit it left-and-right.  If not, I will quickly abandon it.  I probably would not use the deck for bombers, but for interceptors or heavy fighters.

It would be useful to carry your own escorts. Almost reminds me of the Buffalo Mk.2 fleets with a wing of Talons from the old days.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 10:19:46 AM
this worries me, especially if we're gonna be flying around the sector under SB and seeing everyone else in normal burn drive
I think it is to prevent ganks from the AI like with E burn now. And also to prevent bounties from just "NOPE"ing out
[/quote]

It's more not having the time to mess with it - I think it could be quite fun if the AI did use it, but there'd need to be some counter-play abilities, and ironing all that out, along with writing the actual AI for it, doesn't quite have enough bang-for-buck ratio at the moment.


Am I the only person who feels carrier distribution between tech levels is backwards? Low-tech now has 3. Midline has 2. High-tech has 1. This is of course discounting not-real-carriers like Gemini and Odyssey.

On the other hand, 6 out of 14 strike craft are high-tech, and it is also the only tech level that fields shielded strike craft.

Yes, the Astral is the pinnacle of carrier design, but high-tech has nothing for fleets smaller than an armada; whereas both low-tech and midline have carriers for most fleet sizes. Unless there are smaller high-tech carriers still under wraps?

Now that fighters can only be fielded with carriers, it would be a damn shame if smaller high-tech fleets either can't field strike craft or must use lower tech carriers (granted the Heron fulfills high-tech's mobility doctrine pretty well, here's hoping the Drover does too).

Hmm - I feel like if one is expecting each tech level to provide complete fleets compositions and ship progressions, one is always going to be disappointed. They're meant to be complementary rather than self sufficient. To put another way, avoiding too much overlap between what niches the ships fill is a design goal, where providing comprehensive ship sets for each tech level is not.


I had a good chuckle, got the feeling there might be pirates answering it as well?

:-X


And yeah the Dagger's definitely high-tech based on aesthetics. Khopesh will be the midline bomber.

Khopesh is low-tech.



Quote
Target fleets now hide out outside the core worlds area and tend to favor star systems that are also otherwise interesting

That's good. Recently I've been thinking that a key to good open-world game design is not to plaster the place with stuff to do and mark it all on a map, but do lay loose threads between points of interest. If you finish one thing and "naturally" stumble upon the next interesting thing, it feels much more like exploration and as if you have real agency.

Yeah, 100% on the same page here. Some things you discover during your travels are all about pointing you in a particular direction, and missions do this as well. Can always do more here, but I think the current set will be enough to jump-start the exploration aspects.


I also like the approach that Freelancer and the various Evochron games took; making exploration be about the journey as much as the destination, and have it be time consuming and dangerous.

Yep, on the same page here as well. More about having interesting interactions while finding something than after finding it, since the former is going to comprise much more of the gameplay than the latter.

Just asking, what is difference between 'Integrated Targeting Unit' and 'Dedicated Targeting Core' hull mod (both present and future)?

In 0.8a:
The DTC is available at the start, while the ITU needs to be unlocked. They have the same OP costs, and the ITU is a straight upgrade in that it's both installable on frigates and destroyers, and has a slightly higher bonus for the larger ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on March 24, 2017, 10:40:08 AM
Am I the only person who feels carrier distribution between tech levels is backwards? Low-tech now has 3. Midline has 2. High-tech has 1. This is of course discounting not-real-carriers like Gemini and Odyssey.

On the other hand, 6 out of 14 strike craft are high-tech, and it is also the only tech level that fields shielded strike craft.

Yes, the Astral is the pinnacle of carrier design, but high-tech has nothing for fleets smaller than an armada; whereas both low-tech and midline have carriers for most fleet sizes. Unless there are smaller high-tech carriers still under wraps?

Now that fighters can only be fielded with carriers, it would be a damn shame if smaller high-tech fleets either can't field strike craft or must use lower tech carriers (granted the Heron fulfills high-tech's mobility doctrine pretty well, here's hoping the Drover does too).

Hmm - I feel like if one is expecting each tech level to provide complete fleets compositions and ship progressions, one is always going to be disappointed. They're meant to be complementary rather than self sufficient. To put another way, avoiding too much overlap between what niches the ships fill is a design goal, where providing comprehensive ship sets for each tech level is not.

I understand tech levels aren't meant to be factions, and I'm not advocating for a full set of carriers for every tech level. But based on how each time period views fighters, I would've expected high-tech to have the most diversity in carrier design and low-tech to have the least. As it is, it's the other way around.

I mean if high-tech's doctrine is supposed to be "dictate engagements" through speed and mobility, you would expect there to be small, high-tech carriers to support this. Instead it has the complete opposite, a slow, lumbering, overwhelming firepower supercarrier, and nothing else.

.....

To put it another way, I would've expected low-tech to focus on big, lumbering ships-of-the-line and high-tech to focus on speedy, fragile strikers; which includes strike craft (hence fulfilling the design goal of being complementary through different foci). Most of the current line-up fits this except for high tech's carriers (or lack thereof).

I mean all the low-tech carriers fit low-tech admirably (Condor is a slapjob, Mora is beefy, Legion sounds like Mora Plus)... but probably superfluous. I could make do without the Legion if it means a high-tech Destroyer-sized carrier to support those hit-and-run squadrons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
I understand tech levels aren't meant to be factions, and I'm not advocating for a full set of carriers for every tech level. But based on how each time period views fighters, I would've expected high-tech to have the most diversity in carrier design and low-tech to have the least. As it is, it's the other way around.

I mean if high-tech's doctrine is supposed to be "dictate engagements" through speed and mobility, you would expect there to be small, high-tech carriers to support this. Instead it has the complete opposite, a slow, lumbering, overwhelming firepower supercarrier, and nothing else.

A couple of things going on here :)

First of all, backstory-wise, what's available in the Sector is just whatever blueprints happened to be there at the time of the gate collapse. If fewer high-tech carrier blueprints happened to be there, well, that's the breaks - but it's not necessarily indicative of the full (and hypothetical) range of high-tech ships found in the Domain at large.

Second, the high-tech "doctrine" is mostly about what makes sense for those ships. Given the nature of energy weapons, mobility and hit and run are what works. Carriers are naturally more about fighters, so I wouldn't expect them to adhere to a doctrine driven by weapons they don't primarily rely on in the first place.

Edit: finally, fighters work in complement with each other as well, and not isolated to a specific tech level, so it's probably not a good idea to think of high-tech carriers as only using high-tech fighters. With some few exceptions, that's not likely to be very effective.

Edit #2: that's not to say that there won't be some future high-tech carrier with good mobility or whatnot, if that happens to be interesting, effective, not redundant, and balanceable. It's just not going to be be because of the "high-tech doctrine", which, per my previous point, really doesn't apply to carriers or fighters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 24, 2017, 10:56:36 AM
Speaking or energy weapons, I'm kind a shocked that a new one isn't going to be added with this patch. But oh well, I favor low-tech ships anyways to bring on the ballistic options! >8D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on March 24, 2017, 10:58:14 AM
First of all, backstory-wise, what's available in the Sector is just whatever blueprints happened to be there at the time of the gate collapse. If fewer high-tech carrier blueprints happened to be there, well, that's the breaks - but it's not necessarily indicative of the full (and hypothetical) range of high-tech ships found in the Domain at large.

Well, I'm happy with that explanation!

Second, the high-tech "doctrine" is mostly about what makes sense for those ships. Given the nature of energy weapons, mobility and hit and run are what works. Carriers are naturally more about fighters, so I wouldn't expect them to adhere to a doctrine driven by weapons they don't primarily rely on in the first place.

I would've expected ship design to follow doctrine though, as alluded to in the Mora and Heron's backstories (particularly the Heron being a result of the fighter school gaining traction over the cruiser school). A lumbering carrier like the Astral would need something more like the Dominator to hold the line, rather than an Aurora that plasma jets away and leaves the flagship wide open. The Paragon exists of course, but my impression of the Paragon is it's creation is more about Tri-Tachyon ego than an actual battlefield necessity.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 24, 2017, 11:14:08 AM
Speaking or energy weapons, I'm kind a shocked that a new one isn't going to be added with this patch. But oh well, I favor low-tech ships anyways to bring on the ballistic options! >8D
It would be nice if energy weapons in general had something over ballistics.  The only two things I can think of is chain-EMP from a few weapons and exploiting shield AI with a cheap long-range beam, and the latter might not work anymore.  As is, at least for unmodded game, hybrid mounts are basically ballistic, and universals are composite because energy weapons are usually bad, something to use if your ship cannot use ballistics.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 24, 2017, 11:32:32 AM
There used to be a flux overcharge for higher energy-dps at higher flux levels. Maybe bring it back as a hullmod.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on March 24, 2017, 11:38:18 AM
Yes, it's a bit strange how high-tech weapons are, in practice, mostly inferior to "crude" ballistics. Makes you wonder why did the Domain switched in the first place. But maybe we Sector savages are just missing something important about them.

Also, what's with the poor Sabot? Is it doomed to oscillate between single warhead and multiple forever?  :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
I would've expected ship design to follow doctrine though, as alluded to in the Mora and Heron's backstories (particularly the Heron being a result of the fighter school gaining traction over the cruiser school). A lumbering carrier like the Astral would need something more like the Dominator to hold the line, rather than an Aurora that plasma jets away and leaves the flagship wide open. The Paragon exists of course, but my impression of the Paragon is it's creation is more about Tri-Tachyon ego than an actual battlefield necessity.

Getting deep into theorycrafting the backstory here, but it's fun :)

Looking at it from the point of view of whoever (or whatever) was designing the Astral: if it *didn't* pair well with designs already in wide use - the Onslaught, the Dominator, etc - that would be a problem for its adoption, wouldn't it?

On the flip side, I can see it pairing well with something like the Aurora, too. Instead of absorbing punishment, it could use its alpha-strike capability to make enemy ships more vulnerable to the waves of fighters, and then use the breathing room gained for it by the fighters to back off and recover.

Speaking or energy weapons, I'm kind a shocked that a new one isn't going to be added with this patch. But oh well, I favor low-tech ships anyways to bring on the ballistic options! >8D
It would be nice if energy weapons in general had something over ballistics.  The only two things I can think of is chain-EMP from a few weapons and exploiting shield AI with a cheap long-range beam, and the latter might not work anymore.  As is, at least for unmodded game, hybrid mounts are basically ballistic, and universals are composite because energy weapons are usually bad, something to use if your ship cannot use ballistics.

I may at some point rebalance things so that energy weapons have lower flux costs (more in line with ballistic) and high-tech ships have worse flux stats but better shield efficiency (leaving them basically as-is in terms of both defense and firepower). That'd help out with the hybrid/universal mount issues. Not a big priority, though, since energy weapons already offer some utility in those slots, and I don't want to make them on-par with ballistics in overall quality regardless. The advantage of energy weapons lies in the hulls that mount them, so to speak.


Yes, it's a bit strange how high-tech weapons are mostly inferior to "crude" ballistics. Makes you wonder why did the Domain switched in the first place. But maybe we Sector savages are just missing something important about them.

I think it's clear gameplay-wise, and it's more a backstory question, right?

If so: the high-tech hull designs focus on mobility and shields/flux stats. Let's say there's something intrinsic about that design that doesn't work well with ballistics. Maybe there just isn't room for magazines and ammo conduits. Maybe the design can't handle the amount of recoil. Maybe there isn't room for enough crew to service the more maintenance-intensive low-tech gear. Maybe a bunch of other things.

Thus you end up with weapons that are more or less designed to be used on these hulls - worse in theory, but allowing the use of better hulls.

(Energy weapons also tend to have better alpha-strike capability - and their downsides are offset by the improved stats of the hull - so despite being "worse" on paper, they can work quite well anyway. Plus, there are a number of good utility options there, too - beams, EMP weapons, the AM blaster, etc - that can be situationally good on any ship.)

Also, what's with the poor Sabot? Is it doomed to oscillate between single warhead and multiple forever?  :'(

Let's hope not! It seems pretty nice right now - not a free kill, but definitely useful in opening up a window of opportunity.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on March 24, 2017, 11:58:46 AM
Any changes planned to the Vigilance? With the Buffalo Mk.II change the Vigilance is no longer the cheapest way to get a medium mount. Sure the Vigilance has a shield and Fast Missile Racks, but it doesn't have that much more survivability when confronted by a combat ship. Missile racks is only useful in marginal situations, and there are other ways to get large amounts of burst damage if needed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on March 24, 2017, 12:11:44 PM
Bounty changes are interesting.

Are their fleet compositions any different than what they are now? To be honest it gets tiring when the vast majority is just pirates with low tech ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 12:13:55 PM
What I'm hearing is it's not the cheapest, followed by a list of minor ways in which its better than the cheapest, but only by a bit :)

Also, let's not forget its lower crew requirement, higher burn level, and substantially higher combat speed, which frankly is a big deal. Or the fact that it can mount a medium energy weapon, which has some nice support options. And the lower potential for crew losses and additional repair costs.


Are their fleet compositions any different than what they are now? To be honest it gets tiring when the vast majority is just pirates with low tech ships.

Same at the moment - really hadn't touched that. Once you do about 10, about half of them should be proper faction-fleet compositions rather than pirates, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mini S on March 24, 2017, 12:30:55 PM
I may be late for the ballistics vs energy party but I expect in the future the ballistics will regain the ammo limitation and(hopefully) a ship that can rearm friendly's(some ting like suply drones).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 24, 2017, 12:32:48 PM
...
Speaking or energy weapons, I'm kind a shocked that a new one isn't going to be added with this patch. But oh well, I favor low-tech ships anyways to bring on the ballistic options! >8D
It would be nice if energy weapons in general had something over ballistics.  The only two things I can think of is chain-EMP from a few weapons and exploiting shield AI with a cheap long-range beam, and the latter might not work anymore.  As is, at least for unmodded game, hybrid mounts are basically ballistic, and universals are composite because energy weapons are usually bad, something to use if your ship cannot use ballistics.

I may at some point rebalance things so that energy weapons have lower flux costs (more in line with ballistic) and high-tech ships have worse flux stats but better shield efficiency (leaving them basically as-is in terms of both defense and firepower). That'd help out with the hybrid/universal mount issues. Not a big priority, though, since energy weapons already offer some utility in those slots, and I don't want to make them on-par with ballistics in overall quality regardless. The advantage of energy weapons lies in the hulls that mount them, so to speak.


Yes, it's a bit strange how high-tech weapons are mostly inferior to "crude" ballistics. Makes you wonder why did the Domain switched in the first place. But maybe we Sector savages are just missing something important about them.

I think it's clear gameplay-wise, and it's more a backstory question, right?

If so: the high-tech hull designs focus on mobility and shields/flux stats. Let's say there's something intrinsic about that design that doesn't work well with ballistics. Maybe there just isn't room for magazines and ammo conduits. Maybe the design can't handle the amount of recoil. Maybe there isn't room for enough crew to service the more maintenance-intensive low-tech gear. Maybe a bunch of other things.

Thus you end up with weapons that are more or less designed to be used on these hulls - worse in theory, but allowing the use of better hulls.

(Energy weapons also tend to have better alpha-strike capability - and their downsides are offset by the improved stats of the hull - so despite being "worse" on paper, they can work quite well anyway. Plus, there are a number of good utility options there, too - beams, EMP weapons, the AM blaster, etc - that can be situationally good on any ship.)
...

I would like such a rebalancing. Energy weapons work nicely on ships built around them (Tempest, Medusa), but are just inferior on everything else. For example on an Eagle, in terms of usefulness I would put all three of those medium energy mounts combined at about the same net benefit to the ship as 1 more medium ballistic. If the energy weapon flux was more reasonable, then they would give the ship a good close range option to repel frigates/fighters. The "special" thing about energy weapons could be that they have good damage/OP and damage/flux, at the (very high) cost of range. "Hit and Run" for mobile ships and "Get Away" for big ships against smaller enemies.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 24, 2017, 12:36:14 PM
  • Added Drover-class midline carrier, destroyer-sized with 2 fighter bays
yes! o_o

Quote
  • Added Legion-class low-tech battlecarrier
YES! O_O

It's capital-sized, with 4 fighter bays.
YES!! @[email protected]

You'll have to see it to get all the details
NOOOOOOOooooo....... Q___Q
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 12:55:32 PM
NOOOOOOOooooo....... Q___Q

Alright, let me post a screenshot of it on Twitter...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 24, 2017, 12:59:46 PM
NOOOOOOOooooo....... Q___Q

Alright, let me post a screenshot of it on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/845363297570492425/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/845363297570492425/photo/1)

I hate you
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 24, 2017, 01:04:54 PM
Oh, that's just evil Alex.  Time to break out Photoshop and weld this thing back together so I can board it!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 24, 2017, 01:10:40 PM
i'm literally™ dying right now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 24, 2017, 01:21:42 PM
While the ships breaking apart is cool and a worthwhile addition, it does make me wonder just how many missiles (especially Pilums) will meet their futile end colliding with chunks of wreaked spaceships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 24, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
Yes, it's a bit strange how high-tech weapons are mostly inferior to "crude" ballistics. Makes you wonder why did the Domain switched in the first place. But maybe we Sector savages are just missing something important about them.
Maybe there isn't room for enough crew to service the more maintenance-intensive low-tech gear.

Honestly, this would make a ton of sense if high-tech ships tended to have lower maintenance and deployment costs than low-tech ships; I could easily see a paradigm shift where a peacetime military force was less concerned with "Does this blow holes in things?" and more concerned with "But what does this do to my budget?"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 01:28:39 PM
I hate you

Thank you :)

Maybe there isn't room for enough crew to service the more maintenance-intensive low-tech gear.

Honestly, this would make a ton of sense if high-tech ships tended to have lower maintenance and deployment costs than low-tech ships;

The way I see it myself - and iirc it's mentioned in a few of the descriptions - is the high-tech ships have a lot more automation.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 24, 2017, 01:36:51 PM
Aha! So in the Domain crew worked for wages, rather than being bought up front from their current owners. Inefficient.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 24, 2017, 02:06:41 PM
While the ships breaking apart is cool and a worthwhile addition, it does make me wonder just how many missiles (especially Pilums) will meet their futile end colliding with chunks of wreaked spaceships.
yeah.. i honestly think guided missiles shouldn't collide with husks, debris and asteroids (or even instead try to maneuver around them, if that's preferable). it just feels bad when a weapon you can't really aim yourself loses a potentially large part of its effectiveness more or less randomly, even without battleship-sized debris obstructing line of sight. 1 or 2 Hurricanes going into an asteroid rather than the target is a big deal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 24, 2017, 02:15:03 PM
I may be being very silly, but Alex what ship is in your twitter profile pic? Pls help me understand - is it related to this patch  :-[

EDIT: Also Alex I love you, just a bit too much.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 02:18:01 PM
The profile pic is pretty old - it's the original Conquest.

yeah.. i honestly think guided missiles shouldn't collide with husks, debris and asteroids (or even instead try to maneuver around them, if that's preferable). it just feels bad when a weapon you can't really aim yourself loses a potentially large part of its effectiveness more or less randomly, even without battleship-sized debris obstructing line of sight. 1 or 2 Hurricanes going into an asteroid rather than the target is a big deal.

Hmm - for Pilums, you're rarely relying on a specific one to hit, so it's not as big a deal. For other missiles, their trajectories are predictable to a point, and minimizing the risk of them running into asteroids or debris is part of the skill involved in using them. I think it's actually pretty important.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 24, 2017, 02:29:49 PM
The profile pic is pretty old - it's the original Conquest.


Thank you :D

EDIT: Could you explain the situation with Maxios and Killa? If we can't trade with them, then what purpose do they serve? :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 02:34:09 PM
EDIT: Could you explain the situation with Maxios and Killa? If we can't trade with them, then what purpose do they serve? :)

A grim reminder.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 24, 2017, 02:44:54 PM
EDIT: Could you explain the situation with Maxios and Killa? If we can't trade with them, then what purpose do they serve? :)

A grim reminder.

You just created another question xD. Is that to remind players that this is what happens to markets when they're left untouched, or is this more of a lore-based accessory to the game ;D ???
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2017, 02:53:31 PM
The latter option.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on March 24, 2017, 03:13:31 PM
I remember some discussion with David (I think) mentioning that Low Tech didn't always translated by Older. All doctrines existed at the same time even if different era put the accent on different tech. A bit like how the Soyuz and the Shuttles were created roughly at the same period but clearly not with the same level of technicality (and look who's still there). Or even nowadays planes: You still have propeller planes being developed because it's cheaper and easier to build.

So the lack of high tech carriers could be explained by low/mid tech ones being developed at the same time and performing better?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 24, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
An energy weapon rebalance would be nice.  I do not care what kind of ship has the hybrid/universal mount.  A ballistic weapon will almost always be mounted in there (instead of an energy weapon) because it is (usually) such a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 24, 2017, 04:10:22 PM
For other missiles, their trajectories are predictable to a point, and minimizing the risk of them running into asteroids or debris is part of the skill involved in using them. I think it's actually pretty important.
not firing missiles straight into a big husk in front of me, yeah. trying to lead a target to hit it with an unguided torpedo at flamed-out max range while trying to avoid any obstacles, absolutely. but a Hurricane or a salvo of Harpoons smashing into an asteroid 2k units from where i launch them? that doesn't feel like something that happens because i made the wrong decision or wasn't quite good enough to pull it off correctly.

i imagine making missiles try to steer around obstacles in their flight trajectory would be a lot more difficult / time-consuming to get right than just removing the collision, like with friendly ships, but i think it would still serve to avoid the worst of the "goddamn rng!" feeling while still keeping approximate aiming as something that requires a degree of skill/practice.


ALSO I ALMOST FORGOT TO MENTION IT NOW, THAT CHANGELOG LOOKS AWESOME!! :D

still lots of new stuff to look forward to that we didn't know about already! there's one thing missing that i was hoping to see in there though; a suggestion (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10735.0) i made about a year ago. so i'd like to ask: did that just not make it into the changelog, did you try it out and decided not to implement it, or did you forget about it? ^^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on March 24, 2017, 07:55:28 PM
Baiting missiles into debris is a time-honored tradition!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 24, 2017, 07:56:08 PM
Baiting missiles into debris is a time-honored tradition!
Good fun for the whole family!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Lakis on March 25, 2017, 01:43:50 AM
Baiting missiles into debris is a time-honored tradition!
Good fun for the whole family!

Passed down from my cowardly fathers-fathers-fathers-father, to his fathers-fathers-father, to my great great uncle, and now to m- Hey?

Where are you going!?
 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 05:43:07 AM
Oh, that's just evil Alex.  Time to break out Photoshop and weld this thing back together so I can board it!

*brings out duct tape*
Challenge accepted.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on March 25, 2017, 06:39:56 AM
Finally an update on the dev status. Now I´m freaking out again  ::)
Want to play a carrier fleet with these new ones so badly  ;D

NOOOOOOOooooo....... Q___Q

Alright, let me post a screenshot of it on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/845363297570492425/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/845363297570492425/photo/1)

I hate you

I agree. I hate you.
Still had to laugh so much. Very nice trolling Sir!

greetz
Chronosfear
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 07:14:02 AM
Still had to laugh so much. Very nice trolling Sir!
indeed, i actually had to laugh out loud when i saw it. unfortunately, i have a really bad cough at the moment, so that did not go well. ._.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 07:44:38 AM
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/DhvYWng.jpg)
[close]
Guys, I, uh, could use some help...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on March 25, 2017, 08:30:11 AM
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/DhvYWng.jpg)
[close]
Guys, I, uh, could use some help...

f when rotated CCW ~45°, perfectly connects to NE of c.
a then quite neatly attaches to the side of f & c.

I'm not convinced it's a ship; perhaps an asteroid?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on March 25, 2017, 08:44:30 AM
wtb space hulk minigame
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 25, 2017, 08:58:06 AM
I feel soo bad for the guy who has to weld that back together. Now imagine a Paragon
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 09:13:38 AM
i think "Duct-Taped Bulkheads" should be a d-mod.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mini S on March 25, 2017, 09:38:09 AM
i think "Duct-Taped Bulkheads" should be a d-mod.

Some one has been watching too much the Guardians of the Galaxy
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 09:45:49 AM
Welding approximately 35% complete.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/KytKdgq.png)
[close]

Can't actually tell what's the edge of the ship and what isn't.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 10:00:25 AM
Damage decal isn't helping either. but darn, you're way better than me...

Now it occured to me that what we got is not 100% whole parts of a ship - you can "shoot a debris to break it furter" and looks like they've been shot multiple times to prevent the exact job we're doing. Some pieces might have been evaporated, drifted off-screen, or ground to fine dusts and unable to be seen.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 10:26:28 AM
Some one has been watching too much the Guardians of the Galaxy
never seen it, actually. :P

but who doesn't love duct tape?


Damage decal isn't helping either. but darn, you're way better than me...

Now it occured to me that what we got is not 100% whole parts of a ship - you can "shoot a debris to break it furter" and looks like they've been shot multiple times to prevent the exact job we're doing. Some pieces might have been evaporated, drifted off-screen, or ground to fine dusts and unable to be seen.
yeah, that's what i'm thinking too. it probably isn't even the whole ship, and the damage decal will make it impossible to see any details besides rough shape. also doesn't help that we don't know how far the zoom is in the screenshot, so we can't know how much of the ship is missing based on average capital ship size.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 10:33:01 AM
*cough*quitters*cough*

(About 80-90% of the ship is there.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 10:44:32 AM
still lots of new stuff to look forward to that we didn't know about already! there's one thing missing that i was hoping to see in there though; a suggestion (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10735.0) i made about a year ago. so i'd like to ask: did that just not make it into the changelog, did you try it out and decided not to implement it, or did you forget about it? ^^

Oh, hey, yeah! I'm sure I have it written down somewhere, just haven't looked there :) I'll see what I can do - part of it is it's annoyingly non-trivial to add.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 10:52:50 AM
*cough*quitters*cough*

(About 80-90% of the ship is there.)
I'm not done yet - mark my words, a mostly welded-together Legion will appear soon enough!

Although I'm sure if I were welding this thing together in space, I'd at least have a basic visual representation of what the thing looked like before the fleet disabled it, then went ahead and overkilled it. ::) But, as any good logistics officer does, I shall go on with the job.  Hopefully the bulkheads and hallways line up, otherwise the crew that's doomed to fly this thing is going to have a bit of a hard time getting around.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 10:56:13 AM
Although I'm sure if I were welding this thing together in space, I'd at least have a basic visual representation of what the thing looked like
I'd be yelling at my officers about ammo conservation, excessive response and RoE and stuff.


I referred to Soldier's one, and welded additional 2 small pieces(one in c, one in l). Guess we're going somewhere...

Unfortunately, bedtime for me. If I'm up in the morning and it isn't still in complete shape, than I'm in again.
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/Vrjpfyz.jpg)
[close]
Aron out. o7
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 11:01:41 AM
Oh, hey, yeah! I'm sure I have it written down somewhere, just haven't looked there :) I'll see what I can do - part of it is it's annoyingly non-trivial to add.
okay, thanks! :]

...now i'm imagining your workplace covered entirely with post-its of different colors, with texts ranging from detailed thoughts on potential improvements of specific UI elements, to just "PROMETHEUS MK.II" without any additional context.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 11:04:37 AM
PROMETHEUS MK.II

THAT'S ENOUGH OF A CONTEXT
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 11:05:35 AM
THAT'S ENOUGH OF A CONTEXT
!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 25, 2017, 11:10:49 AM
Oh hell naw. It's the Buffalo mk. 5, also known as the Potato
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 25, 2017, 11:36:09 AM
Alex if ejected cargo is gonna be recoverable how does system patrol interact with it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 11:38:41 AM
Alex if ejected cargo is gonna be recoverable how does system patrol interact with it?

It doesn't, good point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 11:53:37 AM
Alex if ejected cargo is gonna be recoverable how does system patrol interact with it?

It doesn't, good point.
So you can...just... eject your contrabands before getting inspected and they don't give a d*mn about what you just ejected out of your ship?

...right, I think I said about me going to bed... I probably should, for real this time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 11:57:48 AM
May I ask how the break lines for pieces of ship are calculated when they're destroyed?  Tessellations?  Fractals (which would be rather fitting)?  Or even just pixel color?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 12:03:52 PM
May I ask how the break points for pieces of ship are calculated when they're destroyed?  Tessellations?  Fractals (which would be rather fitting)?

Picks a valid (i.e. not intersecting or coming too close to other edges) line that splits the current piece in two, then perturbs the line using a fractal...ish algorithm to make the line jagged.


So you can...just... eject your contrabands before getting inspected and they don't give a d*mn about what you just ejected out of your ship?

Well yeah, what I mean by "good point" is that I need to do something about that :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
I'm also assuming lighter pieces will fly faster than larger pieces when the ship explodes?

Either the number of cutting lines was increased dramatically or you really went ham in destroying those parts, Alex - this is much more severe than the Paragon from about 6 months ago:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11240.0
Makes my job a bit harder, on top of not knowing what the thing looked like in the first place, but I think I'm getting somewhere.  Appears to have the rough shape of a Falcon or Eagle, maybe with fighter bays on either side where the missile mounts are abouts.  Although how big it is in comparison to other ships or what class it is, I can't tell.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 25, 2017, 12:18:09 PM
So you can...just... eject your contrabands before getting inspected and they don't give a d*mn about what you just ejected out of your ship?
Well yeah, what I mean by "good point" is that I need to do something about that :)
Damnit!!! There goes THAT exploit! /s
Although I could see ejecting cargo like that as a bait tactic or a full blown trap. IE. Booby-trapped with a few Reapers~ A poor sod opens the container up and BOOM goes the dynamite! And right inside the juice, vulnerable hull too!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on March 25, 2017, 12:19:13 PM
Quote
Can stabilize orbit of cargo pods for several months; costs supplies based on amount of cargo

If we can park cargo containers in an orbit for extended periods of time, can we do the same with mothballed ships? Maybe make scuttling work like that, you strip a ship of everything useful and leave the hull in orbit, to potentially repair and recover later if you return with supplies quickly enough. Could have the same mechanics as post-battle recovery.

As long as scuttling means just entirely destroying a ship I'll probably never do it... I'd rather risk losing the entire fleet than intentionally delete part of it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 12:22:09 PM
As long as scuttling means just entirely destroying a ship I'll probably never do it... I'd rather risk losing the entire fleet than intentionally delete part of it.
Well, you never know, that Heavy Machinery you get from it might be worth more than the ship itself on some markets from what I've seen.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 12:35:14 PM
It's also possible that calculation will change if a lot of your ships are recovered derelicts with lots of d-mods and you can easily and cheaply replace them. Scuttling is meant to be an "I'm stranded without fuel or supplies" last resort option, anyway.

That said, I did think about it spawning derelict ships - but that just makes it annoying, doesn't it? A multi-step process to get the most resources out of it - first you scuttle, then you salvage the derelicts.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 25, 2017, 12:58:15 PM
Instant scuttling is occasionally useful for a few suicide exploits.  The last time I did it, I used it to get Centurions as a Tri-Tachyon player because they are commission-only ships sold at Hegemony.  (This was before I tried to see if the Centurion could be made useful.)

Scuttling not killing ships immediately would foil some shenanigans, though I suppose preventing scuttling the last ship would stop that nonsense too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 01:41:37 PM
I'm also assuming lighter pieces will fly faster than larger pieces when the ship explodes?

Either the number of cutting lines was increased dramatically or you really went ham in destroying those parts, Alex - this is much more severe than the Paragon from about 6 months ago:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11240.0
Makes my job a bit harder, on top of not knowing what the thing looked like in the first place, but I think I'm getting somewhere.  Appears to have the rough shape of a Falcon or Eagle, maybe with fighter bays on either side where the missile mounts are abouts.  Although how big it is in comparison to other ships or what class it is, I can't tell.

IIRC I forced it to split into 15 pieces in one go. It's capital-sized, but the shot is zoomed out quite a bit, so that's probably not much help.

The speed of the pieces is a bit unpredictable - it's largely determined by the physics of how they collide with each other once split - but yes, smaller pieces are more likely to be faster.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JDCollie on March 25, 2017, 01:55:15 PM
With the new salvaging and debris field mechanics, is there any chance of a dedicated, non-combat, salvaging ship? Kinda like the Noctis from EVE?

It could provide any one of a number of benefits, like reduce accident risk (due to automation and appropriate tools), increase salvage speed, improve salvage skill, reduce heavy machinery costs, or increase loot quality (due to proper tools allowing more delicate salvage operations). Also, if NPC salvage fleets are a thing, it would add some flavor to their lineups.

Given that combat is pretty much ubiquitous in Starsector, it seems like a salvage fleet could make a decent living, especially if it had some ships built to that purpose.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 25, 2017, 02:09:02 PM
The Construction Rig (Now Salvage Rig) is essentially this. (Don't Quote me on this)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 25, 2017, 02:17:31 PM
I think Alex scrapped that idea in the patch notes—I dunno what is to become of the Construction Rig at this point. Maybe you'll need to haul around 3-4 of'em to build outposts?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 02:18:55 PM
i'm guessing the new "Recovery Shuttles" hullmod might also be related to salvage and/or scavenge.

i'm all for having more types of non-combat ships in general, although the benefit of having one (or several) in your fleet would have to be done in a way that still leaves using them as a choice rather than something you should always do, in every fleet.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 02:28:33 PM
I think Alex scrapped that idea in the patch notes—I dunno what is to become of the Construction Rig at this point. Maybe you'll need to haul around 3-4 of'em to build outposts?

The construction rig increases both combat and non-combat salvage, yeah. The idea I scrapped was basing the combat salvage bonus on how long the rig spent deployed - that wasn't working well for various reasons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 02:46:57 PM
Most of the ship appears to be in once piece.  Although it looks like it got in the way of a planet cracker - if I continued at that rate, there aren't enough bits of ship to fill it in unless it's asymmetrical or has a hole in it like the Paragon.
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/rQtN43x.png)
[close]
Welding will continue, although I think I'll need to break out the plasma cutters if it doesn't match specs. :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 02:49:26 PM
Oh dear. Hint: it looks like you're making it much bigger than it is, hence "not enough bits".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 02:52:29 PM
Oh dear. Hint: it looks like you're making it much bigger than it is, hence "not enough bits".
Part of the "I have no idea what scale this is at" problem I mentioned earlier. ;) Would you be gracious enough to tease at how close I am?

Plasma cutter time, I suppose.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 02:53:53 PM
Weeell... of the pieces you've got in the latest image, nothing appears to be angled quite right.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 25, 2017, 03:03:25 PM
Grit, spit and a metric crap ton of duct tape.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JDCollie on March 25, 2017, 03:06:18 PM
I think Alex scrapped that idea in the patch notes—I dunno what is to become of the Construction Rig at this point. Maybe you'll need to haul around 3-4 of'em to build outposts?

The construction rig increases both combat and non-combat salvage, yeah. The idea I scrapped was basing the combat salvage bonus on how long the rig spent deployed - that wasn't working well for various reasons.
Ah, cool. I like the idea of a civilian oriented support section of the fleet that extends beyond just freighters. Optional things, obviously, but bringing along a construction rig, or having some kind of dedicated sensor or electronics warfare ship seems like lots of fun :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 25, 2017, 03:29:34 PM
Welding will continue
you're doing Lud's work, son. bless you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on March 25, 2017, 03:56:29 PM
That said, I did think about it spawning derelict ships - but that just makes it annoying, doesn't it? A multi-step process to get the most resources out of it - first you scuttle, then you salvage the derelicts.

Maybe give a choice, when scuttling, to disassemble completely or leave the hull?

Anyway, the scenario of leaving some of my ships behind, tucked away somewhere to (hopefully) be picked up later, makes so much sense to me as an ingredient of a space adventure that it'll feel weird if I can't do it. Especially since I can do that exact thing with cargo. Tying it in with scuttling seemed to me like the easiest way to add it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 25, 2017, 04:16:31 PM
Bro, this is like trying to put together a puzzle that is pure white and no edge pieces...ain't gonna happen!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on March 25, 2017, 05:10:34 PM
Any word on replacing the trident and longbow into the game??
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 05:15:36 PM
Any word on replacing the trident and longbow into the game??

They're in the game, along with some new fighters, too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 05:27:38 PM
I'm back online
waves my plasma torch
Still not done?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 05:30:01 PM
I'm back online
waves my plasma torch
Still not done?
Rebuilding a Legion-class Battercruiser is a bit more difficult than one might think, even for a logistics officer, since the original shape isn't provided. :P

My efforts rewarded me with one thing:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11477.msg200091#msg200091
But it's too big, as Alex stated in the next post.  I've got some other things to do now, but if you have PS, here's my file for it:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iivkc7fazfde6t9/legion.psd?dl=0
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on March 25, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
Thank you for the quick response Alex..but you now must answer the real question..


WHEN BROLY!?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 05:41:53 PM
Thank you for the quick response Alex..but you now must answer the real question..

I can do that, that's easy!

WHEN BROLY!?

Soontm
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on March 25, 2017, 06:03:05 PM
alex you are going to encounter the torches and pitchforks very soon if you do not release game

get off forum and release oh eight or i will rouse the mob
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 06:13:44 PM
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/1TGpji4.jpg)
[close]
Progress now. Kinda got stuck there...
And in retrospect, I shouldn't have merged the layers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 25, 2017, 06:16:48 PM
Alex if ejected cargo is gonna be recoverable how does system patrol interact with it?

It doesn't, good point.

I'm assuming that you don't have the capacity for a fleet to split itself on-the-fly yet so if you eject a bunch of cargo, like a majority of what your fleet could carry, and also maybe you're either on good terms with the faction and/or you're significantly more powerful than the patrol, it'd make sense if they chose to go inspect your suspicious (and safe) cargo pods that you threw, instead of your trustworthy, gun-ridden ships and maybe if there happens to be something of value in it they could consider the value of that cargo a bribe, and if it's enough (or more) than what they'd ask for if they came & scanned you and you had contraband they'd just... conveniently forget about you, or if you don't give them enough, they could come inform you that you're going to be scanned, but accidentally allow you to bribe them (the rest of what they need for a bribe including your pod ejection) not to scan you before they do so to completely avoid the relation hit from having your contraband wind up on a military report somewhere
just a thought
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on March 25, 2017, 06:23:43 PM
WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????

but ma sensors

my range

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 07:05:05 PM
IIRC I forced it to split into 15 pieces in one go. It's capital-sized, but the shot is zoomed out quite a bit, so that's probably not much help.
Actually, that's a bit rude. :P Also; there's 22 pieces.

Weeell... of the pieces you've got in the latest image, nothing appears to be angled quite right.
I'm building it with whatever angles are present with the pieces - mainly because it blurs pretty hardcore if I rotate it, so it benefits the eyes in finding the underlying texture similarities if I can keep myself from rotating every piece.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 25, 2017, 07:07:09 PM
I'm building it with whatever angles are present with the pieces - mainly because it blurs pretty hardcore if I rotate it, so it benefits the eyes in finding the underlying texture similarities if I can keep myself from rotating every piece.

What I mean is, the bigger reassembled pieces are not aligned right relative to each other.


WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????

It's fiiiiine.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 07:18:04 PM
There are a couple pieces I'm finding must go together - there's a clear engine section and some other connected pieces with distinctive underlying textures.  And something else I just realized, we're mainly working with the bounded zone of the Legion, since that's where the destroyed texture extends to when the sprite doesn't reach the edge.  You'd expect there to be more clear, straight edges - but I just can't see any.

I now have 2 rather large chunks that pretty much belong welded together, but then there's the rest of the tiny bits floating around where they're too blurred to make out any textures or colors and the edges are rounded due to the resolution, so I can't really place them anywhere.  Maybe if I just weld them there, it'll hold repressurization...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 25, 2017, 07:39:29 PM
WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????

but ma sensors

my range

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Apogee did took a massive hit, didn't it?
Though lorewise it's not really combat-centered(although certainly capable) ship. So that's...probably okay. I'd still use it.

There are a couple pieces I'm finding must go together - there's a clear engine section and some other connected pieces with distinctive underlying textures.  And something else I just realized, we're mainly working with the bounded zone of the Legion, since that's where the destroyed texture extends to when the sprite doesn't reach the edge.  You'd expect there to be more clear, straight edges - but I just can't see any.

I now have 2 rather large chunks that pretty much belong welded together, but then there's the rest of the tiny bits floating around where they're too blurred to make out any textures or colors and the edges are rounded due to the resolution, so I can't really place them anywhere.  Maybe if I just weld them there, it'll hold repressurization...

Hmm, can I see it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 07:50:27 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iivkc7fazfde6t9/legion.psd?dl=0
Welding around 80% complete.

The bottom chunk is clearly the engine, the largest chunk belongs somewhere above but I can't connect it yet. 
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on March 25, 2017, 08:06:37 PM
Guys, let's slow down here.  Alex is finding this a bit too amusing, and we're setting a dangerous precedent for future updates by feeding into it this hard.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 25, 2017, 08:09:45 PM
Guys, let's slow down here.  Alex is finding this a bit too amusing, and we're setting a dangerous precedent for future updates by feeding into it this hard.
I for one rather enjoy this challenge. :) Can't have everything just given to us on a silver platter, anyways - exploration is now in the game, we gotta search for our goodies next patch.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on March 25, 2017, 10:43:06 PM
Is there a codex explanation for why the Storm Needler will be the only instance of a family of related weapons where range decreases with size?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on March 25, 2017, 11:16:50 PM
Since there's not too much information in the texture of the pieces, it might be good to use a edge detection algorithm to separate the shapes from the starfield. Also, The Soldier, some of the pieces attached to your largest chunk look wrong to me. Notably, the two small pieces in the top right and the three pieces in the bottom left.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 26, 2017, 02:00:53 AM
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/eM4t0kx.jpg)
[close]
I'm close to something.

EDIT:
Spoiler
(http://imgur.com/8vwjjhk.jpg)
I'm fairly sure I welded everything right...might not. let me know if I missed something. If I did, this gives me 4 pieces that I cannot assemble together...
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 26, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
They're in the game, along with some new fighters, too.
Kopesh and Claw, right? any word on what weapons the Claw will have?

oh and something else i just thought of: will the Venture get burn 8 now that even battlecruisers do? i know it will become a more dedicated industrial ship, which i really like, but being limited to 7 max burn just from having a single Venture seems like a bad idea for fleets specializing in surveying and/or mining operations far from the core worlds.


WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????
it kinda needed the combat nerf, but it will now finally become the exploration vessel it was always meant to be! :]


I'm fairly sure I welded everything right...might not. let me know if I missed something. If I did, this gives me 4 pieces that I cannot assemble together...
keep in mind that a few pieces are missing, so there should probably be some holes in it somewhere.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 26, 2017, 07:35:54 AM
I'm aware. Still, I can't make a ship out of these...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 26, 2017, 08:18:01 AM
hmm. do you think it would help if we chopped up some old Hounds and put their pieces anywhere they seem to fit(ish)?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 26, 2017, 08:31:30 AM
There used to be a flux overcharge for higher energy-dps at higher flux levels. Maybe bring it back as a hullmod.
There was, but all the energy weapons were weaker too.  Pulse lasers were garbage, and beams had higher OP cost and less range.  However, mining blaster was very good back then, good enough to compete with heavy blaster even if a bit worse overall.  The damage increase make both pulse lasers and heavy blaster useful (but still not enough to compete with ballistics, except heavy blaster when combined with vent spam, which we will not be able to do anymore).  Mining blaster did not get enough of a damage increase, while still keeping exorbitant flux cost.  Right now, it is only good as fringe shield overload build for Sunder or AM blaster replacement for Hyperion.  Beams got cheaper and more range (except Phase Lance, which lost range).

The only thing I might miss from flux supercharge is the weapons glowing as flux accumulated.  It could be interesting if all energy weapons got EMP or minor shield piercing from flux supercharge.  Not sure it will be enough to make it worth HUD clutter.  Less HUD clutter was the best benefit of flux supercharge removal.  Better baseline stats for most energy weapons are good too.

While on the subject of energy weapons, one big advantage they had over ballistics long time ago was unlimited ammo, while ballistics had limited ammo.  Sure ballistics were still better than energy, but only when they had ammo.  Once ballistics ran out, the ship cannot fight or PD anymore.  When ballistics got magazines, energy was still often better or at least competitive because they had a DPS advantage over ballistics.  Most ballistics then had small magazines akin to autopulse or TPCs, and were effectively half DPS in prolonged battles.  (For me, all important late-game battles are prolonged.)  Since ballistics gained unlimited ammo, they are just flat-out better than most energy weapons.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2017, 09:16:33 AM
Is there a codex explanation for why the Storm Needler will be the only instance of a family of related weapons where range decreases with size?

Since the range limit for ballistics is (conceptually) due to accuracy/targeting/etc, I'd imagine it's to do with that. Possibly just hard to accurately aim that-size weapon and keep it aimed in the face of constant recoil? Or less-than-stellar targeting, for whatever reason.


Kopesh and Claw, right? any word on what weapons the Claw will have?

Khopesh, Claw, and several REDACTED.

The Claw sports an Ion Cannon.

oh and something else i just thought of: will the Venture get burn 8 now that even battlecruisers do? i know it will become a more dedicated industrial ship, which i really like, but being limited to 7 max burn just from having a single Venture seems like a bad idea for fleets specializing in surveying and/or mining operations far from the core worlds.

Well, it makes sense for battlecruisers conceptually, but not so much for the Venture. With Sustained Burn in the picture, though, I'd expect the importance of burn level to drop a bit. I mean, it'll still matter, but when you get +10 (or more) for long-range trips, that'll take some of the sting out. There are also more tactical options, a possibility for having CR-free emergency burn, etc.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 26, 2017, 09:18:08 AM
WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????
it kinda needed the combat nerf, but it will now finally become the exploration vessel it was always meant to be! :]
Yeah, now it only has the flux stats of a warship. Or should I say that the warship has the flux stats of an exploration vessel, which doesn't make sense in many ways, along with the loss of the drones...
I would have kept the drones along with cuting some of the flux stats and or giving the large hardpoint to the Aurora. The fact that an exploration vessel has a large while a full blown warship has a medium is freaking nuts. Not to mention that it also has better shields that fully cover the ship

Edit:
oh and something else i just thought of: will the Venture get burn 8 now that even battlecruisers do? i know it will become a more dedicated industrial ship, which i really like, but being limited to 7 max burn just from having a single Venture seems like a bad idea for fleets specializing in surveying and/or mining operations far from the core worlds.
There are also more tactical options, a possibility for having CR-free emergency burn, etc.
Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 26, 2017, 09:40:38 AM
hmm. do you think it would help if we chopped up some old Hounds and put their pieces anywhere they seem to fit(ish)?
Hmmmmm... sounds plausible.
*brings out a chainsaw*

Seriously, though, that will get in the way of one of the biggest hint to solve this puzzle - colors and patterns on the pieces.

Or less-than-stellar targeting, for whatever reason.
Budget, obviously.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on March 26, 2017, 09:50:19 AM
WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY APOGEE????

It's fiiiiine.

I'm not sure I find to reassuring...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 26, 2017, 10:04:55 AM
Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
Isn't that a level 3 Industry / Safety Procedures skill perk?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2017, 10:08:36 AM
Oh gods, NO! PLEASE! I get ganked enough as it is by the damn AI spamming E Burn. I don't need them not losing CR on top of that. Besides, something like E Burn needs to have a resource cost besides fuel
Isn't that a level 3 Industry / Safety Procedures skill perk?

Correct.

(Also, even if the enemy fleets didn't lose CR from using EB, I doubt that would make much practical difference, but meh.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 26, 2017, 10:26:03 AM
Enemy fleets losing CR from E-burn makes it a little faster to outlast them if I need to resort to stalling.  Also, if there is a fleet I really want to catch (because it has a rare ship I want to capture), I might E-burn it to death.

Generally, enemy losing CR probably would not matter much most of the time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 11:46:38 AM
I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2017, 12:23:38 PM
I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/

I get what you're saying, but don't agree in this particular case. They play by the same rules regarding EB, and whether their supplies cost them money or not (or even exist) is something of a moot point, since it's not directly visible to the player. The feel of it could be enhanced by tweaks to the EB-usage AI, perhaps. To further support that: consider that EB usually gets singled out here, even though AI fleet CR recovery works the same way regarding supplies.

But, anyway: I see your point, but imo it's "minor" rather than "radical", in terms of same-rule-following. That's what gets blamed, but that's not what the actual issue is. It's not even clear that following the same rules would help with AI EB use - if they were to be using supplies and restocking, that's very much the same situation as now, anyway.

Edit: And it's very likely to lead to other issues. Basically, the idea is "let's assume that other fleet commanders are competent at managing their supplies instead of simulating that directly". Simulating it directly, best-case, will eat more CPU and result in similar behavior to now. Worst-case, they won't be competent at it and there'll be abusable issues.

A visible nod to them using supplies - such as, perhaps, fleets occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies - would be imo all that's necessary to fully "sell" it here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 26, 2017, 01:19:06 PM
that's why I'm concerned with the whole no-sustained-burn-for-AI thing

now THAT is a radically different rule if ever I've seen one
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 01:27:10 PM
If properly simulating supplies/fuel/crew for AI fleets is off the table then yeah, adding events where the AI at least acts like it has run out of them would be a good compromise.

But I take it the player wouldn't ever be able to force such events, eh? No chasing around another fleet for dozens of in-game days (provided you have plenty of your own supplies, of course) and then having it trigger an out-of-supplies event?

And yeah, no Sustained Burn for AI is a bit out there, but I imagine it'd really futz with the whole chasing down of enemy fleets loop (and even the movement of fleets in general) if everyone was zipping around at such a high burn...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 26, 2017, 01:29:14 PM
A visible nod to them using supplies - such as, perhaps, fleets occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies - would be imo all that's necessary to fully "sell" it here.
If by "occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies" you mean stopping every single fleet from spamming E-burn literally all of the time, sure. That's the issue I have with AI E-burn, they just mash it every time it's off cooldown even when it's completely unnecessary, making it very obvious they don't actually use supplies and don't care about losing CR before going into a fight. Two AI fleets that want to get into a fight with each other will both E-burn directly towards each other, which is a ridiculous waste of CR. A fleet that wants to stay close to the player will use E-burn every time it's off cooldown, just to vibrate in place at the edge of the designated safe radius. A player that is totally fine with getting into a fight with an AI fleet doesn't even have to try to bait them into using E-burn and wasting an entire deployment's worth of CR, reducing the combat effectiveness of the entire enemy fleet by a small but noticeable amount. It might even be to the AI's advantage to take away their ability to E-burn because of this. This also means E-burn is useless for smaller fleets trying to escape larger fleets of 1 burn level slower, because a dozen-cruiser AI fleet will spend 250+ supplies every other day just to run down your 3-destroyer fleet and you cannot do the same without running out of CR and going broke.

I would be totally fine with the AI not having access to either E-burn or sustained burn. It's clearly not responsible enough to have high burn speeds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2017, 01:43:00 PM
that's why I'm concerned with the whole no-sustained-burn-for-AI thing

now THAT is a radically different rule if ever I've seen one

Could you clarify the "that's why"? I'm not sure what you mean - or, at least, I'm not sure how it follows from what I said, if that's what you meant :) Also: did you see my earlier response about SB and AI fleets? Asking because you're talking about it being a "rule", which doesn't seem to fit with that.

Finally, not re: SB specifically: conceptually, not all abilities have to be available to all fleets. Some are skill unlocks, some might be granted through events, etc. I don't think any given ability not being available to all and sundry is any sort of inconsistency - though I can see how it might seem that way *now*, given that in the current release this is the case with all abilities. In 0.8a, it's not.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on March 26, 2017, 01:48:47 PM
bah, sorry about the omission, I meant it follows from dri's post, not yours

 
I don't really like the idea of player fleets and AI fleets following radically different rules. Makes everything feel overly "gamey" and arbitrary. =/

if you're talking about the whole "AI coding is hard and not enough bang for programming buck", yeah, I did. It makes sense as a developer, of course, but I'm still salty about it.


Finally, not re: SB specifically: conceptually, not all abilities have to be available to all fleets. Some are skill unlocks, some might be granted through events, etc. I don't think any given ability not being available to all and sundry is any sort of inconsistency - though I can see how it might seem that way *now*, given that in the current release this is the case with all abilities. In 0.8a, it's not.


sure, but there's a difference between "not available to every fleet" and "not available to any fleet save for the player's". If SB is even available to the occasional long-haul freight fleet or explorer expeditions, that would feel much better (given the player also has a similar skill needed to unlock it or something)

I'll give it a fair chance, of course, but idk, think I'll just end up disabling SB for myself manually come the update.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: intrinsic_parity on March 26, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
I would say E-burn isn't a very interesting mechanic right now. It doesn't really change the outcome of chases at all, you just have to spend a bunch of extra supplies. The AI generally always pops E-burn if you do so if your fleet is slightly faster, you catch them/escape, slower and you don't, same as it would be without the mechanic. If the fleets are the same speed, you just burn supplies forever. It would be a lot more interesting if there were some skills that affected E-burn. You could get a faster burn to escape fleets you otherwise couldn't, or maybe a slower burn for some other tradeoff (maybe make it cost less supplies or something) or you could have skills that affect the cool down on the E-burn, just something so that it changes the outcome of a chase from what it would have been if the mechanic didn't exist. That would actually make the mechanic feel interesting. IMO right now it's a pointless waste of supplies. It's also super annoying to get chased across an entire system by a patrol constantly E-burning after you and your only options are to burn all your supplies or take an impossible fight.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on March 26, 2017, 02:09:19 PM
I don't think it matters whether or not the AI plays by the same rules as the player, so long as it acts like it does.
Spoiler
The other case is where the AI blatantly plays by different rules and is justified in doing so, such as in AI War.
[close]

I think the main problems with the AI's Emergency Burn usage are:
    1. The AI is overeager to use it, and
    2. The AI pursues longer/farther than what feels reasonable. (Such as a patrol pursuing you far into a different faction's territory.)

I think the first one could usually be solved (when the AI is attacking) by a simple check to see if the other fleet is trying to engage it. If both fleets are trying to engage each other there's (usually) no reason for either of them to EB.

Maybe the AI already has this, but having a timer on (some of) its actions which forces it to reevaluate what it's doing every so often might solve the second problem.


I would say E-burn isn't a very interesting mechanic right now. It doesn't really change the outcome of chases at all, you just have to spend a bunch of extra supplies. The AI generally always pops E-burn if you do so if your fleet is slightly faster, you catch them/escape, slower and you don't, same as it would be without the mechanic. If the fleets are the same speed, you just burn supplies forever. ... IMO right now it's a pointless waste of supplies. It's also super annoying to get chased across an entire system by a patrol constantly E-burning after you and your only options are to burn all your supplies or take an impossible fight.

Word.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 26, 2017, 02:30:13 PM
It doesn't really change the outcome of chases at all, you just have to spend a bunch of extra supplies.
If you know how to exploit the AI it can change the outcome of some chases. When both fleets are the same burn speed and the AI is running away, the player can cut inside the AI's trajectory curve and slowly close distance until the AI freaks out and hits E-burn. However, once the AI reaches the distance it considers safe, it won't flee beyond that if it's not a trade fleet. It'll just vibrate back and forth at the radius it considers safe, wasting its E-burn time. Once the AI's E-burn runs out and goes on cooldown, you can E-burn yourself and easily catch it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 02:35:15 PM
Eh, I've managed to use Emergency Burn to escape even when I was a slower fleet. It has it's uses...

Now, what I feel would make it even more useful would be to greatly buff the ability to hide in asteroids or nebulae. So, you'd be able to EB away and then "Go Dark" inside something to get away much more reliably. Cause yeah, the instances where you and a fleet just spam EB when it comes off cooldown are kinda silly, but being able to use it to get a brief lead and then being able to hide would be much more satisfying. Of course, the AI should be able to hide as well...Alex's work is never done!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 26, 2017, 02:52:28 PM
I agree with the others: The E Burn spamming really makes things Not Fun as it:

To me, E Burn should be used mainly as a defensive ability by the AI, not offensive
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 26, 2017, 04:06:38 PM
Aren't we getting the new "Sustained Burn" ability in 0.8?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: David on March 26, 2017, 04:15:32 PM
FWIW (having played the latest thing) the Sustained Burn ability, plus various others, solves a lot of the Emergency Burn ambush problems. Not to say I haven't had a couple wild chases, and not to say pirates still aren't annoying at times, but there are a lot of nice tools now. It's also easier to get your hands on random supplies plus the economy for supplies is a little nicer, so losing a bit of CR to EB or an escape interaction doesn't hurt so much, I think.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
Speculation can be a dangerous thing! Obviously we should reserve judgement until we have tested it all for ourselves.

So, patch tomorrow?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on March 26, 2017, 05:12:31 PM
Speculation can be a dangerous thing! Obviously we should reserve judgement until we have tested it all for ourselves.

So, patch tomorrow?
Yeah, there's no way we can actually give full balance tips until we've gotten a chance to play 0.8.

Which means it should be released. Now. For testing and balance purposes, I swear.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 26, 2017, 06:26:40 PM
Speculation can be a dangerous thing! Obviously we should reserve judgement until we have tested it all for ourselves.

So, patch tomorrow?
Speculation can be a dangerous thing! Obviously we should reserve judgement until we have tested it all for ourselves.

So, patch tomorrow?
Yeah, there's no way we can actually give full balance tips until we've gotten a chance to play 0.8.

Which means it should be released. Now. For testing and balance purposes, I swear.

You guys realize that every time you ask for the patch, Alex pushes the release back a week right?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on March 26, 2017, 06:50:57 PM
Every time somebody asks when patch is coming out, Alex kills a Stark.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 07:16:19 PM
Do salvage rigs stack or do you just need one to get a flat bonus? I seem to recall a mention of up to 3-4 could increasing salvage...

So if someone wanted to devout their efforts towards surveying planets, what sorts of challenges would they face out there in the more distant systems? Obviously there is the fuel and supply management challenge but can you share something else? The odd secret pirate base, patrolling drone ships, ancient orbiting defense systems?

Many are concerned about the early game being too punishing—what would you say is the single biggest change/addition to the game that is going to make starting out more manageable? Post battle salvage fields?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 26, 2017, 07:19:52 PM
Do salvage rigs stack or do you just need one to get a flat bonus? I seem to recall a mention of up to 3-4 could increasing salvage...
Salvage Rigs' in combat bonus has been removed
"Salvage Gantry: removed bonus to salvage from being deployed in combat, wasn't working right design-wise"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 26, 2017, 07:43:52 PM
Yeah, but you can have more than one of the same ship in your fleet. I ain't talking about deploying them...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 26, 2017, 08:21:07 PM
bah, sorry about the omission, I meant it follows from dri's post, not yours

Ok, gotcha, thanks for clearing that up :)

sure, but there's a difference between "not available to every fleet" and "not available to any fleet save for the player's". If SB is even available to the occasional long-haul freight fleet or explorer expeditions, that would feel much better (given the player also has a similar skill needed to unlock it or something)

I'll give it a fair chance, of course, but idk, think I'll just end up disabling SB for myself manually come the update.

Fair enough. Btw: what I said about it earlier is AI fleets not using it is more to do with "not enough time to look into it" rather than it being a specific design decision.


Re: EB in general: we're all pretty much on the same page here, I think. I mean, I did mention that its usage pattern by the AI is the main problem :) (Edit: not that that's any particular revelation.) Some mechanical tweaks may be in order as well, but we'll see. I think I'll take a quick look at it before release, as far as AI use of it goes.

You guys realize that every time you ask for the patch, Alex pushes the release back a week right?

Oh no, they've finally figured out the real reason 0.8a has been taking so long!



Do salvage rigs stack or do you just need one to get a flat bonus? I seem to recall a mention of up to 3-4 could increasing salvage...

Salvageable stuff has a salvage rating, and rigs provide an additive... 25%? each to the amount of salvage, *up to the salvage rating*. So if you're salvaging something basic, a rig might not provide any benefit, but if you're running a complex operation, then 4? rigs could double your haul.

So if someone wanted to devout their efforts towards surveying planets, what sorts of challenges would they face out there in the more distant systems? Obviously there is the fuel and supply management challenge but can you share something else? The odd secret pirate base, patrolling drone ships, ancient orbiting defense systems?

REDACTED. (Though, naturally, some systems are just empty.) I will say that the biggest challenges in the game are outside the core worlds.


Many are concerned about the early game being too punishing—what would you say is the single biggest change/addition to the game that is going to make starting out more manageable? Post battle salvage fields?

The ample opportunities to get your hands on free stuff. Debris fields are very much part of that, but there's a lot more there. Also, SB to avoid unwanted combat (an EB into SB combination is particularly useful, if timed out right). And a good set of easier early-game opponents.

So... more or less what David said, really :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 26, 2017, 08:35:54 PM
Reading through the patch note to translate, I realized one thing: now we can get Mudskipper Mk.II and get rid of its Ill-Advised Modification!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 26, 2017, 10:17:06 PM
Reading through the patch note to translate, I realized one thing: now we can get Mudskipper Mk.II and get rid of its Ill-Advised Modification!

 :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 27, 2017, 02:01:23 AM
Hey people!

This is in regards to the whole sustained/emergency burn situation that we appear to have here.

What if sustained burn is a perk only available to certain ships, for example, sustained burn is something commonly found on exploration or mercantile ships (they would also get e burn) whilst emergency burn is found on combat/hunter ships.

This would result in both player and npc fleets being focused around sets of ships, and in real life if it existed would be more realistic.

Something to note is that in this situation, it would make sense that sustained is a toggle on/off (sort of like switching entire engine systems on a ship), reduces manoeuvrability MASSIVELY, and provides a smaller burn boost than emergency (+5 for example). On the other hand emergency provides +10 to burn speed and huge manoeuvrability boost (sending normal engines into an overdrive mode) at the expense of a moderate amount of CR. Another addition to balance this would be that sustained burn could only be used in hyperspace, and increase fuel usage slightly, whilst E burn can't be used in hyperspace. The reason that combat fleets get e burn only is because they could sort of ambush mercantile fleets. Hence why mercantile fleets still get e burn, (possibly a degraded version).

Sorry for the awful formatting (I'm on mobile).

I recognise that this couldn't be implemented for 0.8a and that this should go in suggestions, but is a good long term plan. It would also require HUGE changes to the way in which ships interact with the campaign level ganeplay, but I feel as though this is a good solution for the NEXT patch (Jesus Endstone we've not even got this one yet) xD.

Feel free to move to suggestions if you feel this should go there :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on March 27, 2017, 02:32:06 AM
Reading through the patch note to translate, I realized one thing: now we can get Mudskipper Mk.II and get rid of its Ill-Advised Modification!
Sounds fun, except that ship still can't support any large weapon effectively and takes hits like an anorexic boxer. At least it won't malfunction, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on March 27, 2017, 03:46:18 AM
Sounds fun
That's the whole point.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 27, 2017, 04:53:38 AM
Quote
Ejecting cargo:
Creates "cargo pods" that will drift away and be lost within a few days


You know, that could be a super interesting way to deal with pirates (or corrupt patrols). If they are chasing you and you can't shake them, just drop a respectable amount of valuable cargo pods. They will decelerate to pick them up and give you time to escape. If the AI also drops these distractions when chased, voilà, here's a non-bloodthirsty pirate playstile.

Next step would be something like poisoned supplies that allows you to set a trap for enemies ;D



Quote
Ship refit now only degrades CR when something is removed. I.E. adding weapons or hullmods will not reduce CR unless something is removed to make room
Mostly applicable for recovered ships - spending their free OP will not tank their CR

Optimal-but-tedious strategy: Set sail with unequipped ships and a choice of stored weapons and only when you encounter an enemy put weapons on your ships (that are perfect for the specific encounter). On the next station, de-equip your ships and repeat.

It's stupid, but I thought I'd mention it. Small CR cost for equipping would probably be enough to discourage it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 27, 2017, 05:20:28 AM
  • Ejecting cargo:
    • Creates "cargo pods" that will drift away and be lost within a few days
    • Can stabilize orbit of cargo pods for several months; costs supplies based on amount of cargo
      • Only in-system, not in hyperspace
    • Can put crew in cargo pods ("cryosleep" etc)
Disposable heroes return!  Put crew in pods, space 'em, and leave them to die!  Nice for those who want to replay a callous, capricious, proud, ruthless, and vengeful tyrant.  Space crew for incompetence or even on a whim.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: DeathRay on March 27, 2017, 07:36:10 AM
Sooo, now we cannot only eject Cargo, but also Crew. In their own Pods...

Wouldn't that also make some good Mechanics for missions?
Like:
Dear mercenaries, we have received an emergency Signal from a ship around that Starthingy.
Could you please go and help them?
*arriving at star*
Oh hey, theres a debris field.
And there are some Crew Pods.
Aaand there is an asteroid field with readings of a pirate armada...
Help?

Or something like:
Here you have a small special research satellite.
Please put/take it into/out of a/the Orbit of planet x.

That might be interesting.

Hm, we can eject cargo and Crew. That kinda reminds me of something...
The Hull has been breached and the Science is leaking out!!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on March 27, 2017, 07:39:42 AM
Optimal-but-tedious strategy: Set sail with unequipped ships and a choice of stored weapons and only when you encounter an enemy put weapons on your ships (that are perfect for the specific encounter). On the next station, de-equip your ships and repeat.

It's stupid, but I thought I'd mention it. Small CR cost for equipping would probably be enough to discourage it.
That strategy is optimal for that specific fight. Equipping for a specific enemy can easily backfire; for example, a grav/tac beam outfitted Wolf is a tiny god when fighting broken down low-tech pirate ships, but immediately stops working when fighting anything with decent shield efficiency and flux stats, or even just enough armor that the piddly little beams aren't going to break through it before the Wolf completely runs out of CR. Generally speaking you want ships to be generally effective against most enemy types, unless it's a specialist ship you carry around to deal with specific threats your fleet has trouble with, e.g. a phase strike frigate for killing Dominators and Onslaughts. In which case you wouldn't want to refit that ship out of that specific role anyway, because then you lose the ability to deal with that specific threat.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 27, 2017, 08:07:41 AM
It's still an advantage to be able to adapt to the first fight while having exact knowledge of enemy fleet composition. How extreme you then do your specialization if of course up to you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 27, 2017, 08:28:14 AM
Quote
Ejecting cargo:
Creates "cargo pods" that will drift away and be lost within a few days


You know, that could be a super interesting way to deal with pirates (or corrupt patrols). If they are chasing you and you can't shake them, just drop a respectable amount of valuable cargo pods. They will decelerate to pick them up and give you time to escape. If the AI also drops these distractions when chased, voilà, here's a non-bloodthirsty pirate playstile.

Next step would be something like poisoned supplies that allows you to set a trap for enemies ;D

You can drop crew. Once boarding mechanics get developed, nothing would be preventing you from pitching a cargo pod full of valueable guns... with a marine coprs present to use it once they crack the container open.
Would also give cargo ships/shuttles an extra use too; if it were possible to get boarded from a sleeper cell in a cargo pod you collected, having a non-combat ship what collects cargo to get boarded instead of your Onslaught would be a handy safety precaution
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2017, 09:38:31 AM
You know, that could be a super interesting way to deal with pirates (or corrupt patrols). If they are chasing you and you can't shake them, just drop a respectable amount of valuable cargo pods. They will decelerate to pick them up and give you time to escape. If the AI also drops these distractions when chased, voilà, here's a non-bloodthirsty pirate playstile.

Actually have a todo item somewhere for this sort of thing! Not obvious how to add AI-wsie, but probably going to have a look at it.

Optimal-but-tedious strategy: Set sail with unequipped ships and a choice of stored weapons and only when you encounter an enemy put weapons on your ships (that are perfect for the specific encounter). On the next station, de-equip your ships and repeat.

It's stupid, but I thought I'd mention it. Small CR cost for equipping would probably be enough to discourage it.

Hmm - that's true, yeah. Seems like it probably won't be something people do much, though - the payoff is really dubious, as over-speccing for a given encounter may make you less effective in the next one. Feels like any special rules to handle this are probably not worth it.



Once boarding mechanics get developed

Let me stop you right there :) To be perfectly clear: ship recovery replaces boarding entirely, and other boarding mechanics are not on the table whatsoever.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 27, 2017, 09:51:08 AM
Feels like any special rules to handle this are probably not worth it.
how about something simple like: "adding new things never reduces CR below X%". since the main reason for this change seems to be allowing immediate outfitting of recovered ships without CR & supply penalty, even just preventing CR from dropping below 40% (aka into malfunction range) would be enough.

Quote
other boarding mechanics are not on the table whatsoever.
but you know that won't stop people from making a new boarding suggestion thread every couple months regardless. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on March 27, 2017, 10:02:51 AM
IIRC enemy fleet levels go up as you do too, right? (or maybe only for bounties, I'm not sure)
If possible, are you going to look into changing other things as the player levels? Such as the average number of ships in pirate fleets or their tech level.

To add to the SB discussion, I'm also concerned that the limitation to player fleets only will make the game less believable. Like others I'll reserve final judgment until after I play .8, but if there are mechanical problems in adding dynamic code for that have you consider just giving the ability to basic fleets going from A to B? For example heavy trade fleets that launch every once in a while and only use it to go straight to a destination. We won't meet them often but seeing them on the campaign every once in a while will go a long way to make the universe more believable.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 27, 2017, 10:25:18 AM
Once boarding mechanics get developed

Let me stop you right there :) To be perfectly clear: ship recovery replaces boarding entirely, and other boarding mechanics are not on the table whatsoever.


okay so, are crew recoverable from the wreckage of disabled ships as a form of loot?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2017, 10:29:20 AM
how about something simple like: "adding new things never reduces CR below X%". since the main reason for this change seems to be allowing immediate outfitting of recovered ships without CR & supply penalty, even just preventing CR from dropping below 40% (aka into malfunction range) would be enough.

Hey, that's a good idea. Done.

but you know that won't stop people from making a new boarding suggestion thread every couple months regardless. :D

I can but try.


To add to the SB discussion, I'm also concerned that the limitation to player fleets only will make the game less believable. Like others I'll reserve final judgment until after I play .8, but if there are mechanical problems in adding dynamic code for that have you consider just giving the ability to basic fleets going from A to B? For example heavy trade fleets that launch every once in a while and only use it to go straight to a destination. We won't meet them often but seeing them on the campaign every once in a while will go a long way to make the universe more believable.

Again, its more of a "no time right now" issue rather than a design decision. What you're saying makes sense, but I also don't know if it's a good idea to give this ability to *any* AI fleets without some counter-abilities also being in place. It might be, or it might not; it would take some investigating and playtesting to find out either way. So, I don't want to "just" do something.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 27, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
Hey, that's a good idea. Done.
\o/

Quote
it would take some investigating and playtesting to find out either way.
it's like some people don't want you to ever be done with 0.8a.. maybe they've become so used to the continuous hype over the last 13 months, they don't know anymore how to handle the excitement of a playable release with so much fancy new stuff. :[
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 27, 2017, 12:06:38 PM
Actually have a todo item somewhere for this sort of thing! Not obvious how to add AI-wsie, but probably going to have a look at it.

Great! Not for this update though, I presume?




BTW, I have no problem at all with unequal skill sets between player and AI. It's admirable how close Starsector stood to the ideal of AI/player-equality in many areas and for a long time, but to generate entertaining gameplay is still the most important thing. I have a hard time thinking of other games which combined both as successfully as Starsector.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2017, 12:16:15 PM
Great! Not for this update though, I presume?

Let's call it a "stretch goal" - so, probably not, but not entirely impossible.

BTW, I have no problem at all with unequal skill sets between player and AI. It's admirable how close Starsector stood to the ideal of AI/player-equality in many areas and for a long time, but to generate entertaining gameplay is still the most important thing. I have a hard time thinking of other games which combined both as successfully as Starsector.

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on March 27, 2017, 12:21:58 PM
0.8 Soontm?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on March 27, 2017, 02:37:14 PM
As the proud owner of a Star Citizen Refund, I think it can safely be said that "stretch goal" is a four letter word when your patch cycle breaks a year!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 27, 2017, 02:40:58 PM
other boarding mechanics are not on the table whatsoever.
but you know that won't stop people from making a new boarding suggestion thread every couple months regardless. :D
Then a moderator can update the "Frequently Made Suggestions" and add "Boarding" to the list where other frequently-made suggestions like "Multiplayer" are.  After that, then the community can (optionally) mock or scold newcomers who fail to read the FMS topic.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
As the proud owner of a Star Citizen Refund, I think it can safely be said that "stretch goal" is a four letter word when your patch cycle breaks a year!

Yep. About the only scenario there would be if I'm waiting on something last-minute anyway.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on March 27, 2017, 02:57:06 PM
Still wanna know when BROLY.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 27, 2017, 03:18:49 PM
Yep, well aware :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Zelnik on March 27, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
Then give BROLY!  >:(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 27, 2017, 08:31:06 PM
Still wanna know when BROLY.
Apparently, judging based on your posts, the BROLY is now.

...What's a "BROLY" anyway?  Some sort of new hull mod?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: mendonca on March 27, 2017, 09:27:57 PM
British English dialect term for an umbrella, surely?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 27, 2017, 10:19:52 PM
British English dialect term for an umbrella, surely?

Nah, that's "brolly". XD I have no idea what "BROLY" is though...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on March 27, 2017, 10:35:01 PM
Hmmm... What are we talking about here?  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 28, 2017, 12:02:31 AM
Believe me, I'd love to know as much as you.

Still wanna know when BROLY.

Yep, well aware :)

Then give BROLY!  >:(

^ I have zero clues.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embercloud on March 28, 2017, 03:47:47 AM
"Maxios and Killa - decivilized markets - now do not participate in the economy; can't be traded with"

Does this mean no more cheap marines from there?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 28, 2017, 05:25:00 AM
Does this mean no more cheap marines from there?
Marines won't be used for capturing ships in 0.8 anyway, they'll just be a trade commodity. maybe they'll get new uses for exploration or industry stuff at some point though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Embercloud on March 28, 2017, 05:34:40 AM
Does this mean no more cheap marines from there?
Marines won't be used for capturing ships in 0.8 anyway, they'll just be a trade commodity. maybe they'll get new uses for exploration or industry stuff at some point though.

So you use crew for that now?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 28, 2017, 06:31:11 AM
Does this mean no more cheap marines from there?
Marines won't be used for capturing ships in 0.8 anyway, they'll just be a trade commodity. maybe they'll get new uses for exploration or industry stuff at some point though.

So you use crew for that now?
Basically. See this blog for more details: http://fractalsoftworks.com/2017/01/20/ship-recovery/ (TL;DR: Ship Salvaging, which uses supplies and crew, now replaces boarding)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 28, 2017, 07:38:37 AM
"Maxios and Killa - decivilized markets - now do not participate in the economy; can't be traded with"

Does this mean no more cheap marines from there?
Probably, even if marines are no longer needed for seizing ships, being able to buy thirty marines per month at 233 credits each that can be resold for 1000 minus tariffs elsewhere is still easy money.  Not to mention other occasional useful bargains found at their black markets.  The easiest fix is to remove exploits with decivilized markets is to remove them.  Makes enough sense, things are too unstable or chaotic for a marketplace.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 28, 2017, 10:31:11 AM
New Alex Tweet with new ship! https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/846772589959806981
Looks like Alex has shown some mercy and given us the pic of the Legion
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on March 28, 2017, 10:35:14 AM
New Alex Tweet with new ship! https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/846772589959806981
Looks like Alex has shown some mercy and given us the pic of the Legion

Two forward facing large ballistics, FIVE medium missiles AND the 4 wings?? I'm already scared to face that particular variant with an officer on board!

Rambo wolf pack incoming  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on March 28, 2017, 10:38:30 AM
Those 5 medium mounts are composite.

Is that Core Variant box an indicator or a checkbox? Can we share variants between characters now without mucking about in code?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 28, 2017, 10:57:32 AM
New Alex Tweet with new ship! https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/846772589959806981
Looks like Alex has shown some mercy and given us the pic of the Legion
Huh, it's quite unlike anything I expected to weld together.  Despite being low-tech, it's got a very midline feel to it, and almost a high-tech layout.  I half-expected it to have a giant flight deck down the center, reminiscent of the then-ancient Earth-bound aircraft carriers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 28, 2017, 11:14:20 AM
Let's continues the discussion about the new ship in the thread Dri opened: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11707.msg200335;boardseen#new (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=11707.msg200335;boardseen#new)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Serenitis on March 29, 2017, 01:48:26 AM
Is there a reason Sabots are going back to a spread shot?
They were changed to single because most of the spread usually missed entirely making them weak, if not useless.
And I don't think EMP will make up for that. (How does a solid lump of metal generate EMP anyway?)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on March 29, 2017, 02:07:01 AM
Because right now they are unstopable and just a couple of pods can delete any ship from existence instantly.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TaLaR on March 29, 2017, 02:56:01 AM
Because right now they are unstopable and just a couple of pods can delete any ship from existence instantly.

Any AI piloted ship. Player can teleport, skim, phase, tempo-shell or simply bait in a fast ship.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on March 29, 2017, 03:15:57 AM
And that's an even worse point about them! It is still a broken weapon in both player hands and AI control. And that means only a handful of ships are viable for the player against that weapon. And it incentive that AI baiting and kiting playstyle Alex is trying to make less viable. And the single best fleet possible by a wide margin is to spam them on Vigilances/Ventures.

The fleet building tournament clearly showed that only very specialized loadouts can counter a sabot spam, and those loadouts can't do much anything else. Since the AI fleets won't have those fleets, as a player it's just a "I win the game" button.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on March 29, 2017, 04:21:14 AM
Because right now they are unstopable and just a couple of pods can delete any ship from existence instantly.

So is the problem with Sabot missiles, the fact that due to system mechanics and how damages are handled, they're pretty much an all-aspect weapon?

I never used them alot in my gameplays I was too busy enjoying other mod weaponry from Diable & the likes of Neutrino
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 29, 2017, 05:36:31 AM
@ Tartiflette:  More like less optimal.  We do not want Sabot overcompensated to be useless, only not overwhelming against equal or smaller-sized player fleets.

I am indifferent to the Sabot change.

Baiting ammo from AI ships as the best defense feels bad.  MIRVs should become weaker regenerators again.  Currently, they are much like the original MIRV, except more damaging, and the AI wastes them.  It may save one as a revenge attack to fire right before it dies, but otherwise, it just fires n-1 MIRVs like no tomorrow.  Better just wait out the MIRV barrage with the appropriate counter.

So is the problem with Sabot missiles, the fact that due to system mechanics and how damages are handled, they're pretty much an all-aspect weapon?
Not only that, second stage Sabots evade PD and combined with anti-shield kinetic damage, and the damage is high enough to punch big holes in armor despite half damage, they are effectively unblockable.  Sabots' main weakness, aside from low ammo, is the delay before it enters the second unblockable stage, making it less ideal as a twitch punisher, but it is good for reliable damage.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on March 29, 2017, 06:32:39 AM
@ Tartiflette:  More like less optimal.  We do not want Sabot overcompensated to be useless, only not overwhelming against equal or smaller-sized player fleets.

I am indifferent to the Sabot change.

Baiting ammo from AI ships as the best defense feels bad.  MIRVs should become weaker regenerators again.  Currently, they are much like the original MIRV, except more damaging, and the AI wastes them.  It may save one as a revenge attack to fire right before it dies, but otherwise, it just fires n-1 MIRVs like no tomorrow.  Better just wait out the MIRV barrage with the appropriate counter.

So is the problem with Sabot missiles, the fact that due to system mechanics and how damages are handled, they're pretty much an all-aspect weapon?
Not only that, second stage Sabots evade PD and combined with anti-shield kinetic damage, and the damage is high enough to punch big holes in armor despite half damage, they are effectively unblockable.  Sabots' main weakness, aside from low ammo, is the delay before it enters the second unblockable stage, making it less ideal as a twitch punisher, but it is good for reliable damage.

So it's a mechanism flaw I guess? I know a lot of the mods use Sabot like weaponry, and they're just as powerful there too.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 29, 2017, 08:21:50 AM
(How does a solid lump of metal generate EMP anyway?)

Shards of metal could sever wires, create sparks, cause short circuits?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on March 29, 2017, 08:38:16 AM
(How does a solid lump of metal generate EMP anyway?)

Shards of metal could sever wires, create sparks, cause short circuits?

Probably some mechanism related to thermodynamics and electro-magnetism of the ship shielding itself?

Too bad my science is rusty. I'm pretty sure there's a neat Hard-Science Fiction explanation for it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 29, 2017, 09:30:54 AM
I'd assume the projectiles are charged with static electricity, which discharges upon contact with the targets hull. Static discharges can reach very high voltages, enough to trigger breakers and fry delicate electronics. The obvious way to apply the charge to the projectile in the first place would be to line the launch tube with woolen sweaters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on March 29, 2017, 09:39:56 AM
woolen sweaters.
Next patch notes: changing sabots from missiles to socks. But what if they're socks... With bricks inside?!
More seriously, as far as I know there's no way for them to generate electricity, static or not, so I guess they're either charged before or there's some metal/alloy that electrifies with anything by doing anything. If not for arcs I'd say that sabots have nothing to do with EMP, they just go through insides and shred wires and it's simplified as EMP.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 29, 2017, 09:52:46 AM
You could say that electrostatics is what propels the phase seperation - extreme charge imbalance propels the sabots away from their housing. The charge buildup on the payload is a happy byproduct.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 29, 2017, 10:28:40 AM
They were changed to single because most of the spread usually missed entirely making them weak, if not useless.
And I don't think EMP will make up for that.
actually, i think the main reason for the somewhat recent spread-to-single-shot change was that just toggling shields off for a fraction of a second could easily negate the Sabot's effect, which is problematic for a limited-ammo weapon. EMP does alleviate that issue, without the current "press to kill"-button problem when you have a lot of them.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 29, 2017, 12:02:01 PM
The way Alex has worded it doesn't make sense (no offence). Charged projectiles aren't really a thing, I think it's just the fact that lumps of metal will hit wires and stuff and shut things down. Doesn't necessarily have to be an EMP.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on March 29, 2017, 12:42:51 PM
The way Alex has worded it doesn't make sense (no offence).
KEPs being worse at penetrating armour doesn't make sense either, but hey, it's a game. Besides creating new mechanic to achieve the same effect is pointless.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 29, 2017, 01:00:31 PM
Kinetic rounds are less effective against REACTIVE armor per-mass/accelerant than payloads of shaped explosives of the same mass. Against a solid plate armor it makes sense that a kinetic shell will do more damage but SS vessels aren't using solid plate armor, they're using
IE if you fire 100 pounds of kinetic shell at a ship with reactive armor, your round will do 0 damage to the insides of the ship & wipe out exactly 100 pounds worth of reactive armor, while also expending 100 pounds of accelerant getting your kinetic round to velocity, meaning you've expended more than the defending ship.
If you fire a HEP payload that has enough explosive compound packed in to generate the explosive force of 100 pounds of kinetic, because you're using shaped chemical rounds which detonate at point blank range you're actually firing smaller shells than the force-equivalent kinetic round & triggering (disabling) the same amount of reactive armor, using less shell and accelerant in the process.
The drawback is that HE doesn't work in a vacuum so it'd only maintain peek efficiency when striking a solid, malleable surface (armor) and otherwise, without an atmosphere helping contain the explosion, blows the explosion out into vacuum, hence it being best against armor and worst against shields (in vacuum) and hull (no solid striking surface)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Remmon on March 29, 2017, 01:33:12 PM
Kinetic rounds are less effective against REACTIVE armor per-mass/accelerant than payloads of shaped explosives of the same mass. Against a solid plate armor it makes sense that a kinetic shell will do more damage but SS vessels aren't using solid plate armor, they're using
IE if you fire 100 pounds of kinetic shell at a ship with reactive armor, your round will do 0 damage to the insides of the ship & wipe out exactly 100 pounds worth of reactive armor, while also expending 100 pounds of accelerant getting your kinetic round to velocity, meaning you've expended more than the defending ship.
If you fire a HEP payload that has enough explosive compound packed in to generate the explosive force of 100 pounds of kinetic, because you're using shaped chemical rounds which detonate at point blank range you're actually firing smaller shells than the force-equivalent kinetic round & triggering (disabling) the same amount of reactive armor, using less shell and accelerant in the process.
The drawback is that HE doesn't work in a vacuum so it'd only maintain peek efficiency when striking a solid, malleable surface (armor) and otherwise, without an atmosphere helping contain the explosion, blows the explosion out into vacuum, hence it being best against armor and worst against shields (in vacuum) and hull (no solid striking surface)

This is not remotely how reactive armour works. Also not how energy in general works. Reactive armour is slit up into plates or sections. A hit of any kind against a section triggers that whole section to defeat the hit. In the process, the reactive armour expends itself and becomes useless. While it's not generally done currently, it is possible to put down multiple layers of reactive armour if your explosives are stable enough and your detection reliable enough to only set off as much as needed.

Due to the way reactive armour works, it works extremely well against explosively formed penetrators as used in most anti-tank missiles, but does very little against kinetic penetrators. On Earth, it is also generally ineffective against explosive attacks because we have an atmosphere and when you're using bombs against tanks, you tend to use enough bomb to blow the tank to very little pieces. In space however reactive armour would potentially work very well against explosive attacks by providing a stand off between your ship's armour and the explosion.

'solid' armour, actually made up of many different layers with spacing in between some of them would be far more effective against kinetic penetrators, while being more vulnerable to the effects of high explosive weaponry. Of course any talk of realism is a moot point, because in a realistic space combat scenario it would be nuclear warheads, not conventional explosives, against high velocity kinetic penetrators which can potentially reach velocities so high that most armour becomes ineffective.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 29, 2017, 01:44:13 PM
Related note: conceptually, the armor for ships in Starsector is generally of the spaced variety (as I think is mentioned in some of the descriptions?), with lots of handwaving and random technology thrown in for good measure. Because presumably it *is* withstanding nuclear-and-above strength explosions, appreciable-fraction-of-c kinetics, etc.

But, yeah, talk of realism - while fun - ultimately is a bit moot here, since the answer is always "just come up with an explanation that makes it make sense in your head" :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 29, 2017, 01:56:20 PM
Re: Sabots
The problems with previous shotgun Sabot were individually weak shots.  All the ship needed to do was drop shields and the fragments would hit for insignificant damage.  The AI was aware of that and always dropped shields to eat the hits.  At that point, the only use for Sabot was to force the AI to drop shield so that high-tech ship can blast enemies with blasters.  The only ships that would take damage on the shield would be those piloted by inexperienced players.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on March 29, 2017, 02:17:52 PM
Re: Sabots
The problems with previous shotgun Sabot were individually weak shots.  All the ship needed to do was drop shields and the fragments would hit for insignificant damage.  The AI was aware of that and always dropped shields to eat the hits.  At that point, the only use for Sabot was to force the AI to drop shield so that high-tech ship can blast enemies with blasters.  The only ships that would take damage on the shield would be those piloted by inexperienced players.

uhhh, isn't that the point of sabots? I thought the problem with the current-build sabots is that dropping shields against sabots, even if the enemy fires nothing else, is itself a death sentence?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 29, 2017, 02:20:17 PM
Re: Sabots
The problems with previous shotgun Sabot were individually weak shots.  All the ship needed to do was drop shields and the fragments would hit for insignificant damage.  The AI was aware of that and always dropped shields to eat the hits.  At that point, the only use for Sabot was to force the AI to drop shield so that high-tech ship can blast enemies with blasters.  The only ships that would take damage on the shield would be those piloted by inexperienced players.

uhhh, isn't that the point of sabots? I thought the problem with the current-build sabots is that dropping shields against sabots, even if the enemy fires nothing else, is itself a death sentence?

I think it was too extreme for a limited ammo missile - flickering the shield off meant a couple of shots got through, but really not much. At least with (hopefully hefty) EMP, it will at worst case make the ship stop pounding your own.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Remmon on March 29, 2017, 02:50:55 PM
Exactly. Sabots started out as too weak. Flicker the shield, take some minor damage from the kinetics. If the enemy is set up just right, they might be able to put some more damage through before your shields come back up, but not much. So Sabots turned into a single shot. Now dropping your shields meant taking a butt load of damage in addition to the possibility of more from well timed enemy shots.

So we're going to something in between. Sabots spread out to make them harder to dodge completely, reduce damage if you drop shields by quite a lot, but now you get the EMP effects thrown on top of that damage to make things worse. Dropping your shields will mean your frontal armament is liable to take an EMP hit and shut down for a while.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on March 29, 2017, 03:45:20 PM
Hopefully the skill revamp also makes EMP more relevant. I haven't played in a while but I remember disabled weapons being practically irrelevant at high skill levels because they come back online in a second or two.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on March 29, 2017, 03:54:37 PM
Yes, EMP is generally useless against the strongest endgame opponents because they either have high EMP damage reduction and/or faster repair times, just like you.  My flagship could not care less about EMP because it did not do much most of the time, and if it did, stuff would be repaired in a second or two.  Endgame fleets had similarly buffed ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on March 29, 2017, 04:36:19 PM
Hopefully the skill revamp also makes EMP more relevant. I haven't played in a while but I remember disabled weapons being practically irrelevant at high skill levels because they come back online in a second or two.

I also agree - I hope EMP resistance becomes harder to get.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 29, 2017, 06:14:38 PM
Well, lets all bear in mind that EMP is basically Starsectors version of CC (crowd control) found in MMOs. It's all fun and games when you're the one stunning/fearing/rooting the enemy but when it gets turned on you, and you're the one spending your time helplessly staring at your screen in a rage...it ain't fun.

Spending every other battle watching your flagship (or one of your officer's ships) spinning around in a circle due to engine flameouts and with half your weapons disabled to boot ain't fun! EMP should be something that isn't a core part of a battle, imo.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on March 29, 2017, 06:26:14 PM
Reducing skills that resist EMP and increase subsystem repair is fine. EMP is a component of high-tech weaponry - especially of high-tech assault variants - and should be threatening.

It's not like EMP has no counter play. Shields are the most obvious, but there's also hull mods that reduce its effects such as Automated Repair Unit or Resistant Flux Conduits. You can also kill the ship that has EMP. Take the Omen for example, a Lasher outfitted with railguns can easily keep it at bay. The Claw interceptors in 0.8 also have ion cannons, but will probably be easy prey for beam frigates.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on March 30, 2017, 12:34:15 AM
The way Alex has worded it doesn't make sense (no offence).
KEPs being worse at penetrating armour doesn't make sense either, but hey, it's a game. Besides creating new mechanic to achieve the same effect is pointless.

I personally disagree with this. Alex has quoted many times that it's a moot point since we can just explain it in a way that works for this game, which is perfectly fine (I think it's really interesting to hear other people's ideas!).

If ships DONT have reactive armour, but instead have solid plate armour with ceramics built in, KEPs would be bad at penetrating, as ceramics would just break them up. Remember HE can refer to anything, in this case we could assume that all HE weapons fire shaped charge rounds, which would be very good at penetrating solid plate/ceramic armour.

I think this is an interesting one to discuss, so I'll start a topic called "Starsector's armour model" in General Discussion. Join me there and we can figure out one that works with the existing weapon types. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 30, 2017, 06:25:01 AM
The point of sabots isnt that they are kinetic missiles, the point of sabots is that they largely ignore point defense. That's what they have to be designed around. If fired correctly (eg. from max range) sabots can only be shot down by pd ai tac lasers, lr pd lasers and guardians, or the rare case of adv. optics burst lasers on a capital or cruiser.

This, coupled with their incredible kill power in their previous iteration, is why they had to change so they cannot just mow down a ship on their own. Sabots now have the excellent role of opening a ship up to fighter or missile attacks since a lot of the ship's PD will be offline after tanking some sabots. Best of all, if you really loathe sabots you can invest in anti-EMP hullmods, armored weapon mounts and stuff like that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 30, 2017, 04:04:07 PM
Hey, do weapons on a fighter generate flux? I seem to recall mention that they no longer would be in 0.8.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on March 30, 2017, 04:36:00 PM
Hey, do weapons on a fighter generate flux? I seem to recall mention that they no longer would be in 0.8.
There was a mention of a built-in hull mod that was used to make weapons on shielded fighters no longer generate flux.  There was also mention of flux stats limiting fire rate on... I think it was broadswords, making them less of a buzz-saw against shields?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 30, 2017, 05:41:49 PM
Heh, I hope they don't cost flux! I remember when the Phase Beam became the Lance and those poor Xyphos didn't have the flux capacity to fire one all that well, lol
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 30, 2017, 06:51:16 PM
Heh, I hope they don't cost flux! I remember when the Phase Beam became the Lance and those poor Xyphos didn't have the flux capacity to fire one all that well, lol
Well don't forget, Alex also put Tachyon Lances on Wasps
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: facc00 on March 30, 2017, 08:47:04 PM
Any news on a new release its been some time.  Almost six months?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 30, 2017, 08:52:21 PM
Very soontm. Wrapping things up, basically - major features are all done. Right now about halfway through adding a proper campaign tutorial, then it's a bit more playtesting and balancing/polish, and a few modding things, and it should be good. So - however long that all takes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: facc00 on March 30, 2017, 08:55:25 PM
Sweet!  Can't wait!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on March 30, 2017, 09:51:55 PM
Awww, don't delay the patch for a frackin' tutorial...save that for 0.8.1! :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on March 30, 2017, 10:36:23 PM
Awww, don't delay the patch for a frackin' tutorial...save that for 0.8.1! :'(
You know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we all needed a campaign tutorial after this honestly ground-shattering update to the campaign.

Still all for getting this update out the door as quickly as possible without any unnecessary baggage though. :) I'm sure we can flop about without a campaign tutorial for a couple weeks, learn the ropes the good ole' fashioned way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on March 30, 2017, 11:32:30 PM
Skip the tutorial, also bring back Kiting Hounds without updating the patch notes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 31, 2017, 12:22:10 AM
Awww, don't delay the patch for a frackin' tutorial...save that for 0.8.1! :'(
You know, I wouldn't be at all surprised if we all needed a campaign tutorial after this honestly ground-shattering update to the campaign.

Agreed. I'm game to wait a little longer if it means I can be introduced to the new campaign mechanics a little more comprehensively.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on March 31, 2017, 02:46:28 AM
Very soontm. Wrapping things up, basically - major features are all done. Right now about halfway through adding a proper campaign tutorial, then it's a bit more playtesting and balancing/polish, and a few modding things, and it should be good. So - however long that all takes.

I hope "proper" doesn't mean intrusive... Learning by doing with some guidance seems fine, "This thing you currently don't care about works like this, try it now" would be a bit daunting. Especially if it happens several times in a row.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on March 31, 2017, 03:19:11 AM
Very soontm. Wrapping things up, basically - major features are all done. Right now about halfway through adding a proper campaign tutorial, then it's a bit more playtesting and balancing/polish, and a few modding things, and it should be good. So - however long that all takes.

I hope "proper" doesn't mean intrusive... Learning by doing with some guidance seems fine, "This thing you currently don't care about works like this, try it now" would be a bit daunting. Especially if it happens several times in a row.

I'm hoping it'll be a standalone tutorial in the same sense as the combat tutorials, with the old Hammerhead loadout. I can deal with an in-game one, but we already have the help popups for that, don't we?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on March 31, 2017, 04:20:47 AM
I'm hoping it'll be a standalone tutorial in the same sense as the combat tutorials, with the old Hammerhead loadout. I can deal with an in-game one, but we already have the help popups for that, don't we?
Tips and popups that people just click-through and ignore, then B**** when something happens... One note though: Could we get a place where all the help popups are stored so that people that click through them can reread them if they want?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on March 31, 2017, 04:33:11 AM
Its probably a good idea to have a tutorial that walks through supplies and fuel, CR, how to lay in a course, campaign abilities and the transponder/sensor mechanics. A pretty daunting task from the surface look of it, pleased to know you're already halfway through making it!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on March 31, 2017, 04:52:21 AM
i think getting a tutorial ready for launch with 0.8a is great! both for introducing experienced players to the massive amount of additions and changes, and because i imagine this eagerly awaited release will generate some publicity as well, as new let's-play-series are started, and 'old' players will tell their friends about all the new fun they're having.

starting out as a completely new player has become more and more difficult and frustrating with additional campaign complexity of the last few big patches, and 0.8a would likely continue that trend (even if there are now more/easier ways to progress in the early-game, players still need to learn a lot to even know how to). as much as i'm hyped to get to play it myself, we've survived the wait for over a year at this point already anyway. ^^ i think we can manage a couple weeks longer, if it means new players will be able to hopefully enjoy 0.8a as much as i'm sure the people posting here will.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on March 31, 2017, 06:24:48 AM
Two schools of thought on tutorials
1) leave them until last, so you're not having to continually maintain them as the code & game mechanics change over time
2) introduce them from the start, so you know the capability to easily integrate them is present.

Effort Vs Risk.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on March 31, 2017, 07:08:31 AM
So if crew can be put into pods and condemned to certain death put in cryosleep, does this mean that we will sometimes be able to capture as blood slaves rescue crew after battles and when salvaging debris fields? This would be nice.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 31, 2017, 10:02:57 AM
Skip the tutorial, also bring back Kiting Hounds without updating the patch notes.

A+

I hope "proper" doesn't mean intrusive... Learning by doing with some guidance seems fine, "This thing you currently don't care about works like this, try it now" would be a bit daunting. Especially if it happens several times in a row.

At the very least, it'll be skippable once you've done it one time. The idea is to incorporate everything into a narrative - a question/mission you're doing - rather than just having to do assorted random stuff. We'll see how well it pans out, naturally.


i think getting a tutorial ready for launch with 0.8a is great! both for introducing experienced players to the massive amount of additions and changes, and because i imagine this eagerly awaited release will generate some publicity as well, as new let's-play-series are started, and 'old' players will tell their friends about all the new fun they're having.

starting out as a completely new player has become more and more difficult and frustrating with additional campaign complexity of the last few big patches, and 0.8a would likely continue that trend (even if there are now more/easier ways to progress in the early-game, players still need to learn a lot to even know how to). as much as i'm hyped to get to play it myself, we've survived the wait for over a year at this point already anyway. ^^ i think we can manage a couple weeks longer, if it means new players will be able to hopefully enjoy 0.8a as much as i'm sure the people posting here will.

Thanks! Yeah, for me, adding the tutorial here is not at all optional.


Two schools of thought on tutorials
1) leave them until last, so you're not having to continually maintain them as the code & game mechanics change over time
2) introduce them from the start, so you know the capability to easily integrate them is present.

Yep. I'm in the #1 camp, but I think at this point the mechanics introduced by the tutorial are set enough that hopefully there won't be *too* many changes.


So if crew can be put into pods and condemned to certain death put in cryosleep, does this mean that we will sometimes be able to capture as blood slaves rescue crew after battles and when salvaging debris fields? This would be nice.

REDACTED
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: noego on March 31, 2017, 01:57:49 PM
Tutorial??? MMM! This smells strongly of FULL RELEASE. Cannot wait! Kudos, brave developer!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on March 31, 2017, 04:10:25 PM
I know it's been a long time since the latest update but you're doing a fantastic job Alex! I'll likely wait till the inevitable 0.8.1-esque update, but I'm very excited for the game :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on March 31, 2017, 04:38:57 PM
Thank you! Support & patience both much appreciated :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Shanghaicola on April 01, 2017, 02:45:51 AM
Could you at least tell us an estimated release date? I bought SC but didn´t play much (just enough to get hang of basics) because I noticed there is going to be big new update soon and didn´t want to burn out myself. Right now Im checking every single day like an idiot for some kind of release date...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on April 01, 2017, 03:14:24 AM
Could at least tell us an estimated release date? I bought SC but didn´t play much (just enough to get hang of basics) because I noticed there is going to be big new update soon and didn´t want to burn out myself. Right now Im checking every single day like an idiot for some kind of release date...

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Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 01, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
Minor quality of life idea- when picking up loot (weapons) or buying at a market, any chance you could add a line in the tooltip that pops up telling you how many you already have in your cargo? It would save me playing snap with the weapon image and manually checking the inventory.

For example:

After battle, 2 light machine guns are available to pick up.

The existing tooltip just shows LMG stats, the new tooltip would show stats and also would say "you currently have XX LMGs in cargo".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 01, 2017, 04:25:55 PM
Minor quality of life idea- when picking up loot (weapons) or buying at a market, any chance you could add a line in the tooltip that pops up telling you how many you already have in your cargo? It would save me playing snap with the weapon image and manually checking the inventory.

For example:

After battle, 2 light machine guns are available to pick up.

The existing tooltip just shows LMG stats, the new tooltip would show stats and also would say "you currently have XX LMGs in cargo".

... Don't you already get this with the dual-screen system? Like, in a market or collecting salvage after a battle, you have the market/salvage screen on top and your inventory below, so you can see both at once.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 01, 2017, 05:16:03 PM
Minor quality of life idea- when picking up loot (weapons) or buying at a market, any chance you could add a line in the tooltip that pops up telling you how many you already have in your cargo? It would save me playing snap with the weapon image and manually checking the inventory.

For example:

After battle, 2 light machine guns are available to pick up.

The existing tooltip just shows LMG stats, the new tooltip would show stats and also would say "you currently have XX LMGs in cargo".

... Don't you already get this with the dual-screen system? Like, in a market or collecting salvage after a battle, you have the market/salvage screen on top and your inventory below, so you can see both at once.

Sort of, but if your inventory is quite large then it means scrolling and searching to compare the icons (remember a weapon icon is quite different if only a single item is available, compared to if you have five in cargo). To be fair, more an issue when mods are installed. Like I said, minor quality of life, I just notice myself having to do this a lot after battles, and I assume others must be doing the same.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 01, 2017, 05:31:28 PM
... Don't you already get this with the dual-screen system? Like, in a market or collecting salvage after a battle, you have the market/salvage screen on top and your inventory below, so you can see both at once.

Sort of, but if your inventory is quite large then it means scrolling and searching to compare the icons (remember a weapon icon is quite different if only a single item is available, compared to if you have five in cargo). To be fair, more an issue when mods are installed. Like I said, minor quality of life, I just notice myself having to do this a lot after battles, and I assume others must be doing the same.

Ah, I suppose if you play with a lot of mods and a very big fleet this could get problematic.

In that case, I have a better idea: When you mouse over an item in a salvage/market inventory, it highlights the weapon [stack] in your inventory if you have it, maybe just by putting a yellow glow over the grid square. It could work the same in the other direction when you mouse over something in your inventory, so you could quickly determine if a market has another weapon to match one you already have (happens a lot for someone like me who likes symmetrical loadouts, but often finds theirself salvaging weapons one at a time). I'd prefer this as it wouldn't add any additional numbers.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 01, 2017, 05:36:48 PM
... Don't you already get this with the dual-screen system? Like, in a market or collecting salvage after a battle, you have the market/salvage screen on top and your inventory below, so you can see both at once.

Sort of, but if your inventory is quite large then it means scrolling and searching to compare the icons (remember a weapon icon is quite different if only a single item is available, compared to if you have five in cargo). To be fair, more an issue when mods are installed. Like I said, minor quality of life, I just notice myself having to do this a lot after battles, and I assume others must be doing the same.

Ah, I suppose if you play with a lot of mods and a very big fleet this could get problematic.

In that case, I have a better idea: When you mouse over an item in a salvage/market inventory, it highlights the weapon [stack] in your inventory if you have it, maybe just by putting a yellow glow over the grid square. It could work the same in the other direction when you mouse over something in your inventory, so you could quickly determine if a market has another weapon to match one you already have (happens a lot for someone like me who likes symmetrical loadouts, but often finds theirself salvaging weapons one at a time). I'd prefer this as it wouldn't add any additional numbers.

This also works if the screen showing your own inventory auto-scrolls. There are a few ways it could be addressed, but you get the picture.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 01, 2017, 06:00:04 PM
Yeah, I get your meaning. I suppose I've just never had enough cargo in my inventory at once to require something like this.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 01, 2017, 08:56:39 PM
Another salvage QoL request: Warn if you are not taking anything from that battle or salvage op. Many times I have accidentally brushed the hotkey to leave just as the screen appears and have lost out on that juicy loot
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on April 01, 2017, 09:08:41 PM
Minor quality of life idea- when picking up loot (weapons) or buying at a market, any chance you could add a line in the tooltip that pops up telling you how many you already have in your cargo? It would save me playing snap with the weapon image and manually checking the inventory.

For example:

After battle, 2 light machine guns are available to pick up.

The existing tooltip just shows LMG stats, the new tooltip would show stats and also would say "you currently have XX LMGs in cargo".

... Don't you already get this with the dual-screen system? Like, in a market or collecting salvage after a battle, you have the market/salvage screen on top and your inventory below, so you can see both at once.

What if it also showed stacks in storage, regardless of market. That could also apply to commodities.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 01, 2017, 09:43:20 PM
Another salvage QoL request: Warn if you are not taking anything from that battle or salvage op. Many times I have accidentally brushed the hotkey to leave just as the screen appears and have lost out on that juicy loot
Doesn't a debris field spawn after battle now?  I mean, not saying that such a warning wouldn't be bad (in fact, I totally want it as well), but it seems if you do accidentally close out of the menu, there's a good chance you can just interact with the field after that to pick them up (not sure about the mechanics of Salvaging vs just interacting with stuff like that).
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 02, 2017, 06:53:38 AM
What if it also showed stacks in storage, regardless of market. That could also apply to commodities.
that's what i was thinking as well, showing the total amount of a good or weapon i have in storage somewhere would be more useful to me than showing the total amount i currently have in my cargo holds.

with some rare weapons especially, i like to keep a few of them around for when i need them, often even buying as soon as i find one anywhere in a market, even if i don't plan on using it in my current loadouts. but it becomes difficult at times to remember how many of those i already have, if any, and consequentially whether it's worth keeping/buying the one i'm currently looking at.

adding two lines of text to the tooltip like "you currently have X amount of this in your cargo holds" & "you currently have a total of X amount of this in storage somewhere" would solve that.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 02, 2017, 07:00:47 AM
Agreed, adding another line about quantity in storage makes good sense.

(I currently play no-storage games to force me to take freighters/tankers on all trips and up the risks of my raiding)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 02, 2017, 11:12:07 AM
A visible nod to them using supplies - such as, perhaps, fleets occasionally acting as if they're out of supplies - would be imo all that's necessary to fully "sell" it here.
If you don't mind me starting up the e-burn discussion again, I think I have a better idea.

Pirates are trying to make money. They're not mindless murder zombies attacking you for no reason, they're attacking you so they can take your stuff and sell it. If they spend too much money on supplies, they won't make enough money from selling your stuff to pay for said supplies. If your fleet is much smaller than theirs, there's no way they can make a profit by killing you if they spend a ton of supplies e-burning. So there should be some sort of fleet size comparison function where if your fleet is significantly smaller than the pirate fleet, they won't e-burn while chasing you. Fleets from factions that aren't motivated purely by profit, e.g. governments and Luddic Path raiders, should be willing to e-burn while chasing even if they're much larger than you are.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 02, 2017, 11:46:29 AM
Yep, the adjusted E-burn AI takes this into account as well.

Re: UI stuff - a worthwhile discussion to be had, but definitely not touching it for 0.8a :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: TheEndstoneGolem on April 03, 2017, 01:01:27 AM
For the people suggesting about cargo/storage information, there's a suggestion thread for it :)

I just don't think people are being fair to Alex at the minute.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Plasmatic on April 03, 2017, 02:44:16 AM
Just wanted to chim in an say Alex and the rest of the team are doing a fantastic job, I can't wait to play 0.8, regardless of how long it takes.

Much rather have a build that works, rather than try to start a new build only to find game breaking bugs that stop me from playing, deflating all that self-built hype :)

So, Keep up the great work!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: drabilly on April 03, 2017, 03:50:43 AM
I've got a question about combined storage inventory.

For now, if I lost one cargo ship in battle, my upper limit of fleet cargo capacity will change, but, I still have everything I used to have.

The strange thing is, actually, people divide goods into several cargo ships, and if I lost one of them, the goods in that ship definitely wrecked.

What about show separated ship cargo inventory, and fleet captain could distribute their goods into definite ship, just like uncharted waters 2 of KOEI
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 03, 2017, 08:04:23 AM
I've got a question about combined storage inventory.

For now, if I lost one cargo ship in battle, my upper limit of fleet cargo capacity will change, but, I still have everything I used to have.

The strange thing is, actually, people divide goods into several cargo ships, and if I lost one of them, the goods in that ship definitely wrecked.

What about show separated ship cargo inventory, and fleet captain could distribute their goods into definite ship, just like uncharted waters 2 of KOEI

Hi, welcome to the forum!

Actually, that sounds more like a suggestion than a question :) The simple answer to "why no per-ship cargo management" is: because it would be a hassle. You'd have to spent much more time in the inventory screen to distribute your cargo just right. And then you'd have to keep track of what ship carries what cargo, so you don't accidentally put a ship with valuable cargo into a dangerous situation. Or suppose you're on a mission to deliver 200 hand weapons, and in an ambush you lose a frigate that carried 10 of them. So now you have only 190 hand weapons and cannot fulfill the contract. Wouldn't that be annoying?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Orikson on April 03, 2017, 08:13:46 AM
Also explained way back. This one I think: http://fractalsoftworks.com/2011/11/22/crew-management-and-you/
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: drabilly on April 03, 2017, 09:38:50 AM
Hi, welcome to the forum!

Actually, that sounds more like a suggestion than a question :) The simple answer to "why no per-ship cargo management" is: because it would be a hassle. You'd have to spent much more time in the inventory screen to distribute your cargo just right. And then you'd have to keep track of what ship carries what cargo, so you don't accidentally put a ship with valuable cargo into a dangerous situation. Or suppose you're on a mission to deliver 200 hand weapons, and in an ambush you lose a frigate that carried 10 of them. So now you have only 190 hand weapons and cannot fulfill the contract. Wouldn't that be annoying?

Hi, thanks.

And yes, it is annoying if I lost my key goods during contract mission, but hey, it is the life, XD, universe is dangerous, next time I'll protect my cargo ship more carefully.

Also explained way back. This one I think: http://fractalsoftworks.com/2011/11/22/crew-management-and-you/

Thanks for quote, I really like it if starsector could go into complicated way, I like details and manipulate my ships and crews :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Seth on April 03, 2017, 10:46:00 AM
Gotta go with Gothars on this, I also like complicated gameplay and macro management, but in SS it will get extremely tedious real fast. Have lots of experience with such things from various global strategies. Currently designed system is the best we can get. Hope it stays that way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 03, 2017, 12:22:46 PM
I suppose that having cargo in specific ships does kind of encourage freighters, because otherwise you might fail a procurement contract because while your maximum capacity is enough to carry all the stuff needed, on the trip one of your ships is blown up and you lose some of it, because none of your ships have enough to carry the whole shipment. I'd still prefer just not losing anything, though. If you lose a freighter, you already have to ditch anything that's beyond your capacity, which can be a lot if you've just blown up a couple of fleets and taken all their sweet sweet metal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PerturbedPug on April 03, 2017, 12:49:53 PM
If anything Alex wants to minimize micromanagement in areas where it's not necessary. Just look at the tactical layer in combat, you can't give too many orders and those orders aren't very specific.

Adding ship specific inventory would just add salt to the wound of losing a ship in battle, at least with the current system you can choose to leave behind less valuable cargo if you don't have enough room.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 03, 2017, 01:29:25 PM
If you guys wanna discuss this further, please open a new thread (in suggestions?). This is not the right place, as it has nothing to do with the patch notes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 12:42:28 PM
Updated! All playtesting and bugfixes/minor tweaks from here on out.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: facc00 on April 13, 2017, 12:46:17 PM
Updated! All playtesting and bugfixes/minor tweaks from here on out.


o.0 ready to download!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: mehgamer on April 13, 2017, 12:55:30 PM
Updated! All playtesting and bugfixes/minor tweaks from here on out.


o.0 ready to download!!!!!!!!!!

it's just a prank
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 13, 2017, 01:03:53 PM
more Shepherd buffs! O:
i honestly think it might need a little nerf with all this. like putting cargo capacity at ~75, same as Hound with which it shares supply costs, so at least Wayfarer and Cerberus are still the better options for frigate-level cargo ships.


on another note, and sorry if i'm getting annoying, did you take a look at that "holding right-click will immediately reactivate shield/cloak" thing? ^^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 13, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on April 13, 2017, 01:17:08 PM
A lot of welcome QoL improvements. Bravo.

Out of curiosity, what do the new supply and fuel icons look like? Am I saying goodbye to my yellow lunchboxes/crates and luscious red lipstick tubes/torpedoes?  :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 13, 2017, 01:17:48 PM
"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
2K range tac lances anyone?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Mysterhay on April 13, 2017, 01:30:47 PM
"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
2K range tac lances anyone?

It's going to be easier to fight a Paragon with escort than without, at least the Paragon's escort will block LOS from time to time!  ::)

I'm thinking 1k range ion cannons. Burst PD will render missile spam irrelevant for all escort ships also. Looking forward to testing this out!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 13, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
Quote
Solar Shielding: modified description to mention that it also protects against hyperstorms

Oh! Now that is interesting. Might even be worth it.

"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
2K range tac lances anyone?

Plus advanced optics - 2.4k.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 13, 2017, 01:36:01 PM
Paragon really is a monster now—gone are the days of being able to kite/snipe it with a Gauss Cannon.

QoL improvements are always super welcome and I hope the tweaks to the sensor mechanics make them a bit less opaque. Anyways, I've been checking the damn forums every couple of hours hoping for that glorious release annoucement; guess I can take a break from that for a week or so!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 13, 2017, 01:36:40 PM
Quote
Solar Shielding: modified description to mention that it also protects against hyperstorms

Oh! Now that is interesting. Might even be worth it.

"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
2K range tac lances anyone?

Plus advanced optics - 2.4k.
2.2K as increases are all additive now
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 01:41:27 PM
What do the sensor changes mean for gameplay?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 13, 2017, 01:43:10 PM
Paragon really is a monster now—gone are the days of being able to kite/snipe it with a Gauss Cannon.
that will still be possible against anything other than a beam Paragon, though not quite as easy anymore. 1.2k of Gauss +60% of the buffed ITU still far outranges even a Paragon's Autopulses, Plasma Cannons, or Heavy Blasters.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on April 13, 2017, 01:48:14 PM
reduced cargo/feul capacities for combat ships; new fuel and supply icons. very nice indeed!

paragon changes good. capital ships should be capital. Maybe Forlorn hope beatable now?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 13, 2017, 01:50:53 PM
Quote
Solar Shielding: modified description to mention that it also protects against hyperstorms

Oh! Now that is interesting. Might even be worth it.

"Paragon: reduced OP by 30, added built in "Advanced Targeting Core" - +100% weapon range"

Long live the new cap king!
2K range tac lances anyone?

Plus advanced optics - 2.4k.
2.2K as increases are all additive now

* snaps fingers * Drat!

So here's a question - will optics be worth it on the beam paragon? I think yes, as absolute range is more important than percentage.

reduced cargo/feul capacities for combat ships; new fuel and supply icons. very nice indeed!

paragon changes good. capital ships should be capital. Maybe Forlorn hope beatable now?
Beatable now - the trick for me was to use enough phase lances. With the player controlling
the targeting, they let you "pop" the kiting frigates and destroyers one at a time, before they have the chance to retreat, vent, and come back in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: nomadic_leader on April 13, 2017, 01:56:13 PM
reduced cargo/feul capacities for combat ships; new fuel and supply icons. very nice indeed!

paragon changes good. capital ships should be capital. Maybe Forlorn hope beatable now?
Beatable now - the trick for me was to use enough phase lances. With the player controlling
the targeting, they let you "pop" the kiting frigates and destroyers one at a time, before they have the chance to retreat, vent, and come back in.

Ah. I see.  Ok next question:

Why are the two difficulty levels "easy" and "normal." Since these are purely relative terms, why not just call them "easy" and "hard." It's like a pizza place only having "small" and "medium" pizzas.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on April 13, 2017, 01:58:03 PM
Advanced Targeting Core seems like it would be mutually exclusive with other range hullmods, but it doesn't explicitly say so in the patch notes...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 13, 2017, 02:00:10 PM
Why are the two difficulty levels "easy" and "normal." Since these are purely relative terms, why not just call them "easy" and "hard." It's like a pizza place only having "small" and "medium" pizzas.
Presumably normal is the intended difficulty, and easy mode is for elementary schoolers. Calling the difficulty that the game is supposed to be played on "hard" would discourage new players from using the intended difficulty, when playing on easy mode just makes the game trivial.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 02:04:32 PM
more Shepherd buffs! O:
i honestly think it might need a little nerf with all this. like putting cargo capacity at ~75, same as Hound with which it shares supply costs, so at least Wayfarer and Cerberus are still the better options for frigate-level cargo ships.

Hmm, that's a good point. I'll take a quick look.

on another note, and sorry if i'm getting annoying, did you take a look at that "holding right-click will immediately reactivate shield/cloak" thing? ^^

Yeah, I looked at it - the problem is that it's not something I can do while being 100% sure I didn't break something subtle, so there's no way I'd want to do that now.


Out of curiosity, what do the new supply and fuel icons look like? Am I saying goodbye to my yellow lunchboxes/crates and luscious red lipstick tubes/torpedoes?  :D

In the same vein as before, but updated to match the new stuff in terms of overall quality/style.


What do the sensor changes mean for gameplay?

A bit more sensor range in the early game, maybe up to 50% more or so (which should hopefully help with "sudden" encounters), and more meaningful impact from individual ships, that doesn't taper off for larger fleets the way the old formula does.

Edit: plus hopefully being simpler, more transparent, and comprehensible, but that's not strictly "gameplay impact", though I suppose in a sense it is.

Why are the two difficulty levels "easy" and "normal." Since these are purely relative terms, why not just call them "easy" and "hard." It's like a pizza place only having "small" and "medium" pizzas.

"Normal" indicates that this is the difficulty the game is ultimately balanced for and meant to be played at. "Hard" doesn't have the same implications.

(It's more like a place having a "pizza" and a "small pizza".)

Advanced Targeting Core seems like it would be mutually exclusive with other range hullmods, but it doesn't explicitly say so in the patch notes...

It is, yeah.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on April 13, 2017, 02:20:33 PM
You can always make sensor range shorter in a future hard mode.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on April 13, 2017, 02:22:54 PM
  • Second ship: Kite with officer

Alex confirmed loves me irl
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 13, 2017, 02:29:29 PM
Finally, a real purpose for auxiliary ships! I can't remember the last time I had a tanker in my fleet, and freighters were only relevant for traders. Very nice.


The changes to the sensor mechanics are promising, it was really too opaque. It's a little bit strange that 5 frigates now have the same profile as 30 frigates, but it shouldn't matter much in practice.

Have you considered getting rid of fleet-variable sensor strength altogether (with only environmental reduction remaining)? It would allow to display the absolute range at which your fleet will be detected in various states (dark, burning) and makes thinks very clear. Small fleets would always detect big fleets first, but I can't think of a reason why that would be bad at the moment. I'm probably missing something :D


Oh man, I'm excited for this! Just a little bit longer...

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 02:49:39 PM
The changes to the sensor mechanics are promising, it was really too opaque. It's a little bit strange that 5 frigates now have the same profile as 30 frigates, but it shouldn't matter much in practice.

Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)

Have you considered getting rid of fleet-variable sensor strength altogether (with only environmental reduction remaining)? It would allow to display the absolute range at which your fleet will be detected in various states (dark, burning) and makes thinks very clear. Small fleets would always detect big fleets first, but I can't think of a reason why that would be bad at the moment. I'm probably missing something :D

Thought about it, yeah. It gets weird with sensor bonus/penalty ships, and if you have any of that, then you basically have the two numbers. May be worth it in the end, though, not entirely decided on it one way or the other.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 13, 2017, 02:55:27 PM
freighters were only relevant for traders.
I've used freighters many times when bounty-hunting since sometimes I'm overburdened with all that loot. It only gets worse when privateering.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: facc00 on April 13, 2017, 02:56:45 PM
Did I miss a download link somewhere?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 03:00:16 PM
What if all ships contributed to sensor profile but only top 5 to sensor strength?

It makes perfect sense that stacking more of the same quality sensors will get you only so far, but it doesn't make sense that stacking more identical ships will stop making them easier to detect as a group. This is not an appeal to realism, I just think this is one of those situations where making it simpler will actually make it more difficult to understand, because it diverges too far from default expectations that are based on reality.

This will of course remove the symmetry that always makes two fleets detect each other at the same time, regardless of size, if neither have special modifiers. But I've never understood why that is a good thing anyway. Why shouldn't a smaller fleet have a stealth advantage over a bigger fleet? I might be missing something, but isn't that what stealth is for?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 13, 2017, 03:04:11 PM
Did I miss a download link somewhere?

Nah, it's not released yet. Just another set of changelog notes. But it'll be out soon undoubtedly!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 13, 2017, 03:05:27 PM
Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)

 ;D


Thought about it, yeah. It gets weird with sensor bonus/penalty ships, and if you have any of that, then you basically have the two numbers. May be worth it in the end, though, not entirely decided on it one way or the other.

Oh nice, so I'm not just confused!

Well, to have a mechanic just so some entities can give a bonus to it seems a bit backwards, no? Alternative bonus for high res sensor could be earlier identification of unidentified fleets or less sensor penalty from environments.


Did I miss a download link somewhere?

No download yet, just a last patchnote update.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on April 13, 2017, 03:06:36 PM
it really doesn't make any sense that sensor "strength" scales with ship size. sensor strength should scale with ship technological sophistication. ECM/EW capability can scale with the size of your powerplant, but sensors require very little power generally, compared to the massive amount any starship is going to produce.

to put it another way without muh realism

if a wolf has 1 sensor of X strength, and an onslaught has 500 sensors at X strength, that doesn't actually mean the onslaught sees better. it just means that the onslaught can see the same area at the same strength. what matters is the strength of the sensor, not how many there are. pooling sensors doesn't actually increase their strength, it just allows the onslaught to see around it's own hull.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 03:10:50 PM
Bigger ship means bigger arrays / apertures / receivers / whatever they have. Regardless of how sensors operate generally larger size improves both resolution and sensitivity. That's why astronomers keep building bigger and bigger telescopes.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 13, 2017, 03:14:17 PM
Quote
High Resolution Sensors give a flat +60 to sensor strength

Is this to the ship, or to the fleet?

Example: Say I have 5 capitals, each with 150 sensor strength. Does my frigate with 30 strength and High Resolution sensors do anything?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on April 13, 2017, 03:14:54 PM
if you are trying to detect a galaxy billions of LY away maybe. by your logic an aircraft carrier is going to have the biggest sensor in the fleet, which, no. if you have a sensor designed for warfare it's strength chiefly relies on technical sophistication, followed by the attributes of the mounting platform, it has nothing to do with size.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
Of course an aircraft carrier has the biggest and best sensors in a fleet, why do you think they have those huge radar domes on them? ???

And even if an Onslaught has just more sensors, not bigger ones, that still helps. Two sensors can detect a signal half as strong as one sensor, and with interferometry, even resolution can be improved if the relative position of sensors can be held precisely enough.

(I was going to write more, but this is getting a bit off-topic).

I do agree that tech level should be a factor in sensor quality though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
What if all ships contributed to sensor profile but only top 5 to sensor strength?

It makes perfect sense that stacking more of the same quality sensors will get you only so far, but it doesn't make sense that stacking more identical ships will stop making them easier to detect as a group. This is not an appeal to realism, I just think this is one of those situations where making it simpler will actually make it more difficult to understand, because it diverges too far from default expectations that are based on reality.

This will of course remove the symmetry that always makes two fleets detect each other at the same time, regardless of size, if neither have special modifiers. But I've never understood why that is a good thing anyway. Why shouldn't a smaller fleet have a stealth advantage over a bigger fleet? I might be missing something, but isn't that what stealth is for?

Mechanics-wise, having all ships contribute to either stat linearly is not viable. Either ships don't contribute an individually impactful amount, or the number gets too high on the high end of fleet size.

Also: while I see your point, I think there's also a simplicty to having the same set of rules for each stat, rather than two different ones, even if one of those two is simpler.


Well, to have a mechanic just so some entities can give a bonus to it seems a bit backwards, no? Alternative bonus for high res sensor could be earlier identification of unidentified fleets or less sensor penalty from environments.

An excellent point. But then for those specific alternate uses, there'd have to be a similar kind of formula to make sure a range of ships can contribute to it without making the results unreasonable (i.e. how much better is 2x Apogee vs 1x Apogee? etc). Well, I don't know. It bears more thought - will definitely leave it as-is for now, though.


it really doesn't make any sense that sensor "strength" scales with ship size. sensor strength should scale with ship technological sophistication. ECM/EW capability can scale with the size of your powerplant, but sensors require very little power generally, compared to the massive amount any starship is going to produce.

to put it another way without muh realism

if a wolf has 1 sensor of X strength, and an onslaught has 500 sensors at X strength, that doesn't actually mean the onslaught sees better. it just means that the onslaught can see the same area at the same strength. what matters is the strength of the sensor, not how many there are. pooling sensors doesn't actually increase their strength, it just allows the onslaught to see around it's own hull.

Just a general note: if one looks for reasons why something "doesn't make sense", one can *always* find them. So, that's not actually terribly interesting - it's always a few thoughts away, for any mechanic. It feels much more reasonable to find reasons for why things *do* make sense - these are also very easy to find, there are many, and I personally find it more interesting.

Some quick examples for sensors, without necessarily saying that's how things work in-universe:

- Sensors could be bound by computational power, with larger ships naturally having more cpu cores available to process the results. Pooling computational resources across multiple ships has benefits but also limits.
- Sensors could  operate at FTL speed, making the underlying principles, well, just about anything. It could well be that spreading multiple sensors wider could give more range.

Etc etc. I mean, it's totally reasonable to say "it doesn't make sense to me", but not an absolute "it doesn't make sense". You're choosing to make a set of arbitrary assumptions that make it not make sense, if that makes sense :) Which is fine! But that's not the same as it not making sense in some absolute sense. Ahem.

Quote
High Resolution Sensors give a flat +60 to sensor strength

Is this to the ship, or to the fleet?

Example: Say I have 5 capitals, each with 150 sensor strength. Does my frigate with 30 strength and High Resolution sensors do anything?

The frigate will do nothing in that situation.


I do agree that tech level should be a factor in sensor quality though.

I could see that, but I just really don't think the mechanic needs to get more detailed here. An extra +/-10 on various hulls for little actual impact just doesn't feel like a worthwhile thing to have the player trying to optimize. As it stands, this is reflected by certain high-tech ships having High-Res Sensors.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on April 13, 2017, 03:34:40 PM
it differentiates hightech from low and gives hightech a boost, which they need anyway.

the model is counterintuitive and too simple. >high tech scout frigate >inferior in sensor strength to thousand year old battleship with sensors that qualified as antique 1/3 of the way into it's lifecycle

?????? i'm a sensor geek but take a random man off the street, show him a wolf and then show him an onslaught and which will he pick as the one with better sensors.

this progressive dumbing-down of the game is starting to disturb me honestly. sensors were not too complex before. it wasn't perfect for many reasons, but tying strength directly to hull size? any reasonable person wouldn't understand it, physically it doesn't make sense and it's not good for the game, either. there's no reason an onslaught has to be a good scout ship. there are a dozen reasons i can think of right now that it shouldn't be, for one, it's the best ship in the game and already ridiculously strong.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on April 13, 2017, 03:35:30 PM
I personally see it as how much the sensor array has to be spread to cover all angles of the fleet. If you have more ships, the sensors can be focused on a smaller area each, allowing them to reach farther.
Kinda like a lamp vs. flashlight debate. The lamp spreads light in more than one direction, but is usually dimmer. Focusing the light into a beam lights a smaller area, but becomes much brighter
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 13, 2017, 03:37:16 PM
I prefer sensor strength to be based on hull size, since so many other pieces of the game are. Also, I'd rather it be hull size rather than how "blue" my ship is.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 03:38:48 PM
sensors were not too complex before. it wasn't perfect for many reasons, but tying strength directly to hull size?

Eh, sensors *were* tied to hull size before, in very much the same way as in the new formula. That you were not aware of that is good evidence of it indeed being too complex.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 03:49:43 PM
Quote
Mechanics-wise, having all ships contribute to either stat linearly is not viable. Either ships don't contribute an individually impactful amount, or the number gets too high on the high end of fleet size.

But why is it a problem that huge fleets would have huge sensor profiles? If it means that I can see an enormous battlefleet across half a system, then... well, why wouldn't I?

I guess my overall point is that whenever I think of stealth in a military situation, the by far most important application for it that comes to mind is a small scouting force keeping an eye on a bigger force that cannot see it. It's the most basic function of a sensor model, something I would definitely want to try and expect to work in a game. But the sensor model in Starsector is specifically designed to make that impossible, by making small fleets exactly as blind as large fleets are visible, which really confuses me.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 03:55:37 PM
But why is it a problem that huge fleets would have huge sensor profiles? If it means that I can see an enormous battlefleet across half a system, then... well, why wouldn't I?

What happens then is sensors stop being a consideration *at all* for fleets beyond a certain size, i.e. one large fleet will always see another large fleet at such long range that it may as well be infinite. I think the game plays better when some degree of stealth remains an option even for larger fleets.

I guess my overall point is that whenever I think of stealth in a military situation, the by far most important application for it that comes to mind is a small scouting force keeping an eye on a bigger force that cannot see it. It's the most basic function of a sensor model, something I would definitely want to try and expect to work in a game. But the sensor model in Starsector is specifically designed to make that impossible, by making small fleets exactly as blind as large fleets are visible, which really confuses me.

Again, similar reasons. This symmetry keeps whether you can see something or whether something can see you dynamic - based largely on terrain effects and ability use - rather than being fixed given the fleets involved. Put in a slightly different way, this makes terrain and abilities more meaningful.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 13, 2017, 03:59:54 PM
I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 13, 2017, 04:02:31 PM
Sensor math: one frigate, two frigates, three frigates, four frigates, many frigates :)
I guess that's what you get for using troll sensors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Discworld)#Literacy_and_Numeracy)
Also some part of early game difficulty is that pirates often came out guns blazing out of nowhere, even if it was bigger fleet.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 04:09:01 PM
I guess that's what you get for using troll sensors. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Discworld)#Literacy_and_Numeracy)

Niiice :)

Also some part of early game difficulty is that pirates often came out guns blazing out of nowhere, even if it was bigger fleet.

Yep, that's the reason it's a bit higher now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 13, 2017, 04:11:12 PM
I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
Maybe lore can explain it - maybe the Domain created an efficient form of sensor technology that could be installed on every ship, though never updated it as they progressed because it was as good as they though they could make it.  And then similarly to the Tachyon Lance, the understanding of how it worked was lost with the Collapse.  So ask no questions asked on how it works, just let the autofactory do it's thing.  Though I'd need David's help for that. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Techhead on April 13, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
Most ships still have equivalent sensor strengths and profiles. Unless one of the ships involved has asymmetric sensor stats, sensor encounters will remain symmetric.

As long as the UI effectively communicates how the system works, I don't really have any problems with it. People are making noise about large schools of frigates, but generally, you're only going to care about the big ships anyway.

And with the exception of modifiers, sensor strength was always tied to hull size. Frigates were 1, destroyers 2, cruisers 3, and capitals 4. Then the whole fleet was all summed up and passed through a funny equation. This ditches the equation and makes it "base plus the five most important ships".

EDIT: Fixes numbers.

EDIT 2: Looks like I'm repeating stuff Alex said a few posts up. Whoops.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Wyvern on April 13, 2017, 06:05:11 PM
I'm still kind of skeptical but it does make sense.
Maybe lore can explain it - maybe the Domain created an efficient form of sensor technology that could be installed on every ship, though never updated it as they progressed because it was as good as they though they could make it.
Or maybe there have been significant improvements in sensor technology, but they're been retrofitted into previous hulls, much like the Onslaught's shield generator.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Histidine on April 13, 2017, 06:23:36 PM
My idea for overcomplicating it:
Fleet profile = (profile of 5 highest ships) + sqrt(profile of other ships)

This is identical to the new system for small fleets, while adding diminishing returns for additional ships. So they still matter somewhat (and people don't wonder why they don't) without making the fleet stat grow to excessive levels.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 13, 2017, 06:32:41 PM
What I want to know is if there are some special weapons or ships that can only be acquired through exploration and/or salvaging! Did you have the time/resources to add something awesome like that?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 13, 2017, 06:53:43 PM
pretty sure alex said that REDACTED and REDACTED will be in the next patch, not sure about REDACTED though

edit: also REDACTED, how did I forget that...  :P
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 13, 2017, 07:13:56 PM
My idea for overcomplicating it:
Fleet profile = (profile of 5 highest ships) + sqrt(profile of other ships)

This is identical to the new system for small fleets, while adding diminishing returns for additional ships. So they still matter somewhat (and people don't wonder why they don't) without making the fleet stat grow to excessive levels.

Hehe, yeah. I mean, I get what you're saying, but it definitely doesn't seem necessary.


What I want to know is if there are some special weapons or ships that can only be acquired through exploration and/or salvaging! Did you have the time/resources to add something awesome like that?

I guess you'll just have to go exploring when the release hits, and find out :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on April 13, 2017, 07:35:51 PM
I think the debate over why sensors are the same across 3 different tech ships of the same size can be put down by re-iterating that a ship's tech does not translate to when it was made relative to the others, and hand-wave that even low-tech ships saw the need for advanced sensors & made the sacrifices they needed to make to secure the same sensor suites as everyone else had, for their size
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 13, 2017, 08:00:37 PM
Yeah, it's even said in the lore (specifically the codex description of the Doom Phase Crusier) something along the lines of "Phase detection equipments are now a mandatory component of any ship's sensory package."

... If that doesn't scream "Low tech and high tech have the same access to sensor tech", then I don't know what does.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 13, 2017, 08:28:37 PM
Or maybe there have been significant improvements in sensor technology, but they're been retrofitted into previous hulls, much like the Onslaught's shield generator.
That can work too.  Simple enough upgrade the old hulls with the new tech (if it isn't too big a jump) and then updating the autofactory blueprints with the improved sensor systems.  I'm sure a military as large as the Domain kept older models of ship in service or possibly in production due to simplicity, as shown by the XIV upgraded ships despite there probably existing the high-tech ships at the time.  Pretty much exactly like how modern militaries today do it - they kept WWII-era battleships like the USS New Jersey in service far past their original expiry date by upgrading the radar and replacing various weapons systems.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 14, 2017, 01:11:27 AM
There's nothing that military loves more than modernizations, basically "we can make old rustbucked kill enemy's new thingy for a fraction of its price" (for example, look how extensively tanks are being upgraded instead of replaced). It's reasonable that sensors would be quickly replaced if they became outdated, along with targeting systems, so they aren't completely left in the dust.
@PCCL well, for one thing, it won't be aliens if I recall correctly. Alex said there wouldn't be any. So I guess DoM's experiments gone wrong.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 14, 2017, 10:44:21 AM
Finally, a real purpose for auxiliary ships! I can't remember the last time I had a tanker in my fleet, and freighters were only relevant for traders. Very nice.
Tankers are occasionally useful when the commodity you want to trade lots of fuel, or just simply hauling lots of fuel from Sindria to whatever system has your primary storage base.  Freighters are useful mainly for two things:  bulk transport jobs (e.g., transport thousands of lobsters) or looting.  My warmongers need freighters the most, looting either from chain-battling multiple enemy defense fleets or intercepting a lucky Atlas fleet.  One time, I intercepted an Atlas fleet with 5000 or so supplies, and my toolbox war fleet happened to have two or three empty Atlas of my own to loot everything.  It was a huge payday, and I did not need to buy supplies for a long time.

Honest traders do not need much cargo space unless they find a job on the job board that needs thousands of something.  It does not take much to stabilize markets that have a shortage.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on April 14, 2017, 11:40:02 AM
Really happy to see the supply/fuel changes! Reducing capacity across combat ships will make things interesting too.

I hope in the future there can be a couple new combat scenarios based around utility ships. I would love a way to "attack the supply lines" of an enemy fleet and snipe their fuel tankers or take out their salvage operation before they can respond in force. Essentially some kind of scenario where you are forced to deploy or you force the enemy to deploy utility ships in combat. Makes the decision of outfitting them and which ones to have with you more important and gives a little more use to their decorations weapons. :D

Otherwise we will be using them in our fleets but never actually seeing them lol

And because I can't make a post on this forum without asking about modding:

So, 1-10 how moddable is that tutorial right now?  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 14, 2017, 11:45:50 AM
Otherwise we will be using them in our fleets but never actually seeing them lol

There are some support hullmods - based on Coordinated Maneuvers and Electronic Warfare - that can potentially make support ships worth deploying. (And tucking away in a corner, but still.)

And because I can't make a post on this forum without asking about modding:

So, 1-10 how moddable is that tutorial right now?  ;D

The campaign tutorial? 10, I'd say. Unless I'm forgetting something, 100% of it is done in a "how a mod would do it" way. Which necessitated a few additions to the API, but then that's kind of the point of doing it like that to begin with!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on April 14, 2017, 12:12:59 PM
@PCCL well, for one thing, it won't be aliens if I recall correctly. Alex said there wouldn't be any. So I guess DoM's experiments gone wrong.

Skynet confirmed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Morrokain on April 14, 2017, 12:21:25 PM
The campaign tutorial? 10, I'd say. Unless I'm forgetting something, 100% of it is done in a "how a mod would do it" way. Which necessitated a few additions to the API, but then that's kind of the point of doing it like that to begin with!

https://goo.gl/images/kQm6p5
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 14, 2017, 01:49:17 PM
@Jonlissla Funnily enough it's quite probable - what megacorporation is in the sector and is known to have partake in development in borderline illegal AI? LUDDICHURCH OBVIOUSLY
That, or it's just Alex trolling us. Or something else, there's a ton of dark secrets to put in derelicts.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on April 14, 2017, 02:14:22 PM
@Jonlissla Funnily enough it's quite probable - what megacorporation is in the sector and is known to have partake in development in borderline illegal AI? LUDDICHURCH OBVIOUSLY
That, or it's just Alex trolling us. Or something else, there's a ton of dark secrets to put in derelicts.
HERETIC! Burn in the fires of LUDD!

Jk, that's for the Imperium of man to handle.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on April 14, 2017, 02:48:02 PM
The campaign tutorial? 10, I'd say. Unless I'm forgetting something, 100% of it is done in a "how a mod would do it" way. Which necessitated a few additions to the API, but then that's kind of the point of doing it like that to begin with!

awesome. Can't wait, 0.8 feels so close now!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 14, 2017, 03:45:11 PM
modding related question: How easy/difficult would it be to seed manned stations/inhabited planets operated by factions in the outer worlds? Is it much the same way REDACTED are seeded into the outer worlds? Or would there be more nuance to it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 14, 2017, 03:54:18 PM
modding related question: How easy/difficult would it be to seed manned stations/inhabited planets operated by factions in the outer worlds? Is it much the same way REDACTED are seeded into the outer worlds? Or would there be more nuance to it?

Not very complicated, but probably not a good idea to add more than a few for performance reasons. The economy gets creaky if you add a bunch of markets to it. It should be alright if mods add a few faction homeworlds here and there, but it would very much *not* be alright if a mod decided to add, say, 50-100 markets in the procgen area. And even if it was somewhat more restrained, it probably wouldn't coexist well when run alongside a bunch of other mods.

On the other hand, it's not too difficult to add a market to a world without hooking it up to the economy, and just using a script to fake up its supply/demand/stockpile data.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 14, 2017, 03:58:43 PM
fair enough, wasn't planning on more than say 10, just to breathe some life into the otherwise dead space
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Voyager I on April 14, 2017, 04:18:10 PM
So, after jumping into the game for a bit to get ready for 0.8, I was reminded what crazy *** enemy phase frigates / Hyperions are to fight against.  Without going too deeply into it right here, one of the more insulting things about them was that the reward for enduring their shenanigans was usually a 300cr frigate bounty.  With the changes to salvage, you'll at least have a decent shot at getting your hands on some of your own, even if it might cost a king's ransom to get them back into working order.

PS there still needs to be some counterplay to these little @*!#ers other than "huddle your fleet in a ball and wait for their CR to run out".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on April 14, 2017, 05:54:49 PM
In the current version you can use beams (particularly burst beams) to really punish or deny phase frigates/hyperion.

Next version fighters will be much more of a persistent threat to phase ships. Talons (with swarmers + vulcans) could easily punish an afflictor or keep it at bay. Shade will have trouble dealing with shielded fighters while attacking larger ships.

As for hyperion, waiting it out may be all that can be done without making a hard-counter to these types of ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Coriantumr on April 15, 2017, 02:56:02 AM
this progressive dumbing-down of the game is starting to disturb me honestly. sensors were not too complex before. it wasn't perfect for many reasons, but tying strength directly to hull size? any reasonable person wouldn't understand it, physically it doesn't make sense and it's not good for the game, either.

Tying sensor strength directly to hull size is probably the most realistic. Get as high-tech as you want, but your sensor resolution will have hard physical limitations based on aperture size. A small ship with one sensor won't see nearly as far as a large ship with multiple sensors, even if the sensors are identical. A large ship can spread out its sensors further than a small ship, combine their data, and achieve what is called 'aperture synthesis' which delivers resolution based on the spread of individual sensors (imagine faking a giant radar dish using a swarm of small radio receivers).

Unrelated - I don't think I've ever anticipated any game release as much as I'm anticipating this upcoming starsector patch.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on April 15, 2017, 05:16:45 AM
I don't think I've ever anticipated any game release as much as I'm anticipating this upcoming starsector patch.

I'm checking the twitter on a almost hourly basis. Seriously, the hype is immense. Exploration, planet interaction, new REDACTED faction and ships and weapons, UI and QoL improvements across the board. It feels like this update is on par with the release of the campaign map.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Psyonicg on April 15, 2017, 03:27:42 PM
I have to agree. Been checking the Reddit/official site like three times a day!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 15, 2017, 04:03:17 PM
I have to agree. Been checking the Reddit/official site like three times a day!
The discord is the most active place besides the forums
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on April 15, 2017, 05:42:15 PM
We have a reddit????
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Linnis on April 15, 2017, 08:02:55 PM
checking Starsector status, my current addiction.

The top news "in-dev patch notes for Starsector 0.8a (4/13/17); New blog post: Ship’s Log of Salvage Dave’s Final Mission (3/29/17)"

the two position between the blog and patch switched I almost got an heart attack
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 15, 2017, 08:20:17 PM
We have a reddit????
We have a Discord?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 15, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
We have a reddit????
We have a Discord?
Yes. Here it is: https://discord.gg/TBhcFNh
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 15, 2017, 10:43:38 PM
A Discord channel, a sub-reddit, a Something Awful thread, regular 4Chan threads (well, less so these days since there isn't much to talk about) and threads on several other forums...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on April 16, 2017, 02:06:38 AM
You know, when you put it like that, it seems that there is legion of us  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on April 16, 2017, 02:39:05 AM
or, a legion of places for 40 of us to go lol
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 16, 2017, 02:50:17 AM

There is.
Gib update! D:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 16, 2017, 08:33:24 AM
So, not sure if it's been answered anywhere, but what happens to the fighters if their home carrier gets destroyed?  It feels logical that the fighters would continue to engage with the last target that the carrier had until destruction, though not sure if it works that way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 16, 2017, 08:43:46 AM
So, not sure if it's been answered anywhere, but what happens to the fighters if their home carrier gets destroyed?  It feels logical that the fighters would continue to engage with the last target that the carrier had until destruction, though not sure if it works that way.
they'll stick around to fight for a bit, then retreat off the borders of the map.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 16, 2017, 08:47:25 PM
Ok, makes sense I suppose.

As a side note:
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/853794425440481280
Damnit Alex, my finals are coming up.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 16, 2017, 09:10:18 PM
same :(

wai u do dis alex
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dogthing on April 17, 2017, 10:05:32 AM

https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/853794425440481280


(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 17, 2017, 10:15:55 AM
Don't get too excited, I remember one time the RC had a very bad issue that pushed back the release a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 17, 2017, 11:12:43 AM
Damn Tart, way to crush our hopes and dreams. We're all dying of thirst in a desert and you just said our oasis is really a mirage! :'(
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on April 17, 2017, 11:42:50 AM
Nah, he said the oasis was just over the next sand dune...

Guys, we've waited over a year. What's another week (or two)?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ahrenjb on April 17, 2017, 01:19:58 PM
Video games are for people who have finished their exams for good  :P . Post release (whenever that happens to be), I have regularly scheduled Starsector time ~7:30pm-11pm or so.

1-2 campaigns of vanilla, set it aside for a few months while the modding community catches up, and another cycle of campaigns while exploring all the new mechanics and how the mod makers have integrated them into their work. Then it's back to sporadic play while checking in on patch notes and blog posts waiting for the new update.

The game that keeps on giving, thanks mostly to Alex's undeniable perfectionism with each release cycle.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 17, 2017, 06:31:31 PM
Don't get too excited, I remember one time the RC had a very bad issue that pushed back the release a couple weeks.

Christ Tart, just *** in our kellogs why don't you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on April 17, 2017, 07:21:44 PM
Were there any major changes made to the procgen between now and the most recent blog post? It would be nice to follow in Salvage Dave's footsteps and see how I fair.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 18, 2017, 04:58:40 AM
Are timid officers useful as carrier captains? Will they use their fighters and still manage to steer clear of combat, or will they cower in the corner with an escort?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 18, 2017, 09:03:24 AM
Were there any major changes made to the procgen between now and the most recent blog post? It would be nice to follow in Salvage Dave's footsteps and see how I fair.

You mean, will the seed generate the same Sector? Not 100% sure - I *think* it should but can't promise that it will.

Are timid officers useful as carrier captains? Will they use their fighters and still manage to steer clear of combat, or will they cower in the corner with an escort?

It'll be the same as an Astral's or Condor's default behavior, more or less.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on April 18, 2017, 01:29:31 PM
Does the Apogee have built in High resolution sensors/ Give a boost to a fleets sensor strength? What about the sensor drones/boost in weapon range? Is It still viable as a flagship?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 18, 2017, 01:37:59 PM
Does the Apogee have built in High resolution sensors/ Give a boost to a fleets sensor strength?
Yes. Also, it has the "Surveying Equipment" hullmod.

What about the sensor drones/boost in weapon range?

It has no drones anymore, it has double active flare launchers now.


Is It still viable as a flagship?

Sure, but I guess it is best for an exploration focused play stile now. As it should be.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 18, 2017, 03:20:30 PM
Is Salvage Gantry unique to the Shepherd? What other ships have it?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 18, 2017, 03:22:12 PM
Is Salvage Gantry unique to the Shepherd? What other ships have it?
The Construction Rig (or Salvage Rig as it's now know as) has it instead of the Repair Gantry.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on April 18, 2017, 06:48:55 PM
Does the Apogee have built in High resolution sensors/ Give a boost to a fleets sensor strength?
Yes. Also, it has the "Surveying Equipment" hullmod.

What about the sensor drones/boost in weapon range?

It has no drones anymore, it has double active flare launchers now.


Is It still viable as a flagship?

Sure, but I guess it is best for an exploration focused play stile now. As it should be.

But it's not as good of a combat flagship anymore, damn, that was my baby...
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 18, 2017, 07:18:16 PM
Does the Apogee have built in High resolution sensors/ Give a boost to a fleets sensor strength?
Yes. Also, it has the "Surveying Equipment" hullmod.

What about the sensor drones/boost in weapon range?

It has no drones anymore, it has double active flare launchers now.


Is It still viable as a flagship?

Sure, but I guess it is best for an exploration focused play stile now. As it should be.

But it's not as good of a combat flagship anymore, damn, that was my baby...
It was OP as all hell, especially with the out of combat boosts and the range boosting drones
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on April 18, 2017, 09:03:20 PM
Does the Apogee have built in High resolution sensors/ Give a boost to a fleets sensor strength?
Yes. Also, it has the "Surveying Equipment" hullmod.

What about the sensor drones/boost in weapon range?


It has no drones anymore, it has double active flare launchers now.


Is It still viable as a flagship?

Sure, but I guess it is best for an exploration focused play stile now. As it should be.

But it's not as good of a combat flagship anymore, damn, that was my baby...
It was OP as all hell, especially with the out of combat boosts and the range boosting drones

It was not OP, it was peeeeerrrrrrffffeeeeccccttttt
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 19, 2017, 08:46:47 AM
regarding the new starting options, and the talks about early-game difficulty, how about including Reinforced Bulkheads in the default loadouts of the starting ships, or at least of the Kite/Shepherd wingmen? that could make 'losing' one of your ships in battle a lot less frustrating (assuming you still win the battle, at least).

even if an allied ship gets a d-mod each time it's recovered, and the cost of the supplies and weapons needed to get it back into fighting shape might be about as much as buying an entirely new ship, i think it could be quite helpful for new players who are still learning on how and where to get new stuff. and it might also simply feel less painful to suffer a loss in combat, that way.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 19, 2017, 09:57:02 AM
The officer on the Kite has Damage Control 1 which does the same thing, although I have to imagine a scenario where you survive and the Kite doesn't is going to be quite rare.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 19, 2017, 10:05:50 AM
oki. what about the Shepherd getting caught while you're away from it, doing your own thing? i imagine it doesn't take much to overwhelm a lone Shepherd, if the AI goes after it.

could also just be a good way to let new players see "hey, this hullmod exists, maybe you wanna use it". ^^
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 19, 2017, 10:20:16 AM
Just checked - yep, the Shepherd does have reinforced bulkheads. Apparently I was thinking along similar lines while kitting those out.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 19, 2017, 12:42:06 PM
Will the missions be adapted to the new gameplay elements at all? I imagine every one with fighters in it is (or was) not functional anymore. Will you also re-balance them, or leave that for later?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 19, 2017, 12:44:17 PM
They've been rebalanced, yeah.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 19, 2017, 12:47:55 PM
 :)

Missions are still among my favorite thing to do in Starsector.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 19, 2017, 01:06:13 PM
Speaking of fighters, will there be more default loadouts of carriers since fighters are now treated as weapons?  Strike, Support, Assault, etc.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 19, 2017, 01:28:04 PM
Yep. Named exactly that, even.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 19, 2017, 01:54:36 PM
Nice, looking forward to more interesting AI fleet fighter loadouts. :)

Another side note if you missed it:
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/854780709654982657

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif?noredirect)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Deshara on April 19, 2017, 02:05:57 PM
Speaking of missions...
more kite hull variants? more missions?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 19, 2017, 02:47:18 PM
Just checked - yep, the Shepherd does have reinforced bulkheads. Apparently I was thinking along similar lines while kitting those out.
heh, nice! it does kinda fit the "trusty industrial & mining ship" theme, too.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: karacho on April 19, 2017, 03:31:27 PM
I would love missions in progressive orders... something like mini-campaings including 3-10 missions.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 19, 2017, 03:33:50 PM
I would love missions in progressive orders... something like mini-campaings including 3-10 missions.


It's the way a lot of mods run their missions, true. Starsector's stock missions do follow the story of the sector, but they're not really sorted chronologically. A few exceptions where things occur in succession: Turning The Tables and For The Greater Ludd are a pair; Sinking the BisMar and the follow up mission where it returns as the HSS Phoenix are a pair. I think there's another couple of connected missions, but I can't remember.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: aZmoDen on April 19, 2017, 04:51:58 PM
Wow what great news to wake up to!
3 minutes you say? great just enough time for some weetbix!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: NITROtbomb on April 19, 2017, 09:14:09 PM
Excited out of ten!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 20, 2017, 04:31:36 AM
He only made it up to RC11 before calling it a night.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 20, 2017, 04:48:42 AM
It will be RC33 that'll be stable, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 08:44:39 AM
Like, what is the average number of RC needed to get a Starsector patch out? Is 11 a lot?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on April 20, 2017, 08:47:44 AM
0.7.2 is RC3

0.7, which IIRC got delayed for a long time is only RC5
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 08:50:56 AM
But it really doesn't mean much. It goes up by 1 every time Alex fixes a bug and rebuilds the game. The bug can be a typo that will take five minutes to fix or a huge design error that will take a month. Still only one RC. There have been a lot of typos this time.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: gruberscomplete on April 20, 2017, 09:27:16 AM
So 0.8 release is tomorrow / this weekend?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 09:29:28 AM
Alex seems to be struggling with the Mac/Linux builds...as usual. Damn them nonstandard OS. =/
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 20, 2017, 09:29:58 AM
Sorry to ask this question but I own this game for a long time now and was wondering if the update is soon? It's been so long since i've had an update but i can understand development is something that's not done with a magic wand in a matter of seconds! I don't mean to start a war or anything please and i'm not trolling, just looking to know if there will be an update in 2017 thanks <3
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 20, 2017, 09:30:29 AM
So 0.8 release is tomorrow / this weekend?
No. Within six months.
old men are the future
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on April 20, 2017, 09:32:07 AM
So 0.8 release is tomorrow / this weekend?
No. Within six months.
old men are the future
Whoa let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 09:34:26 AM
Patch could be out today, tomorrow...almost here.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 09:35:19 AM
Could be literally right now and could be in two weeks, such is life in software development.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Elijah on April 20, 2017, 09:37:01 AM
It could even be already released an we didn't notice yet O.O
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 20, 2017, 09:39:04 AM
It could even be already released an we didn't notice yet O.O

So it's soon? How do you guys tell?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 09:40:52 AM
We follow what Alex (the main developer) says on this forum and Twitter. He's doing release candidate builds right now which is the very last step before release.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 20, 2017, 09:41:54 AM
Awesome thanks :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 20, 2017, 10:50:31 AM
I bet he's watching us and laughing, right now. Damn suspension!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 11:11:11 AM
I have to go to work soon; if the patch comes out today I hope one of you guys can take screenies of the all the new ship hulls and weapons in the Codex!

EDIT: Whoa, just noticed I posted this at 11:11:11. Surely a good omen of the patch being released soon! Haha
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 20, 2017, 11:24:20 AM
Noooo, you jinxed it! Now the patch will come out the 11th November!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Nick XR on April 20, 2017, 11:26:30 AM
One code monkey to another, don't release in the later half of the week. :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 11:38:37 AM
Alex works over the weekends all the time...I think. So it don't matter when he releases since he's self-employed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 20, 2017, 11:38:58 AM
I think it's out uber soon the features on main page of site changed! it seems!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (In Development) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 20, 2017, 11:40:13 AM
I THINK IT'S OUT!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 11:41:36 AM
It's out!

(You guys are fast.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 11:42:27 AM
BAH GAWD! MY MIND HAS BEEN SPLIT IN HALF!

HOORAY!! ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Tartiflette on April 20, 2017, 11:45:25 AM
Congrats!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 11:46:04 AM
Oh, hey, forgot to add the last bit of patch notes to the OP - did that now.

Congrats!

Thank you! (I think I'm getting sick, too. The next few days should be fun.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 20, 2017, 11:50:40 AM
Quote
Tempest: increased Terminator drone speed, now armed with Ion Pulser
WHAT
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: arcibalde on April 20, 2017, 11:54:13 AM
Wohooo  ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Toxcity on April 20, 2017, 11:56:16 AM
Congratulations! Installing now!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cyan Leader on April 20, 2017, 11:57:02 AM
Just here to join the hype, thanks for all the work Alex!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 20, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
Command and Control rank 2 description "50 faster command point recovery (fleet)" is missing the % sign.
Fighter Doctrine and Carrier Command skill effect descriptions are identical.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 20, 2017, 11:59:01 AM
Thanks Alex!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on April 20, 2017, 11:59:27 AM
Thanks for all the hard work Alex. time to vanish from reality
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:00:23 PM
Quote
Tempest: increased Terminator drone speed, now armed with Ion Pulser
WHAT

Yeah, let's see how that one works out. The AM blaster just wasn't working out - bit too awkward and too much of a penalty for a missed shot (which you have little control over).

Congratulations! Installing now!
Just here to join the hype, thanks for all the work Alex!
Thanks Alex!

Thank you!!

Thank you!
Command and Control rank 2 description "50 faster command point recovery (fleet)" is missing the % sign.
Fighter Doctrine and Carrier Command skill effect descriptions are identical.

Thank you, fixed C&C rank 2. The other two have the same effect, yeah - but one is fleet-wide while the other is only for fighters from your ship.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
What a beautiful evening!  :D

Happy release day Alex and David!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SeinTa on April 20, 2017, 12:06:03 PM
Thank you, Alex!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: The Soldier on April 20, 2017, 12:09:23 PM
You know, I've been really busy lately.  And I've waited a year for this update - we all have.  I think I can take my time to settle down and install this thing. :)

This is a glorious day.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: RandomnessInc on April 20, 2017, 12:11:54 PM
HALELUYA
ITS OUT :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on April 20, 2017, 12:12:43 PM
File is so hot off the presses that Avast won't even open it because of suspicions it's a virus.

Good times ahead.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:13:47 PM
Thank you!

<goes back to waiting for bug reports to come in>

I mean, if the past is any indication, then a hotfix for something or other will be in order. It'd be nice to buck the trend, though.

File is so hot off the presses that Avast won't even open it because of suspicions it's a virus.

Ugh. Was a problem before with another antivirus for a previous version, too. Could you possibly report it as a false positive, if that's an option?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Azmond on April 20, 2017, 12:14:38 PM
"Stopped using roman numerals in ship names" - Alex


No more XXX then at the end of words, Damn. xD
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 20, 2017, 12:15:47 PM
Quote
Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core modified to only add 50% range for PD weapons (still 100% for other weapons)
Interesting! As I can't download/play until later, I'm going to bother you with questions  ;). If I have tac lasers, will putting IPDAI on them cause the range reduction? I would imagine so.

@Falcon speed to 9: Yay!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:17:43 PM
Quote
Paragon's Advanced Targeting Core modified to only add 50% range for PD weapons (still 100% for other weapons)
Interesting! As I can't download/play until later, I'm going to bother you with questions  ;). If I have tac lasers, will putting IPDAI on them cause the range reduction? I would imagine so.

I believe so, but whichever way this happens to work is "correct" :)

@Falcon speed to 9: Yay!

It's a bit less of a bonus now that Sustained Burn exists. I've been flying around with tons of burn-6 ships and it hasn't been a problem.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Jonlissla on April 20, 2017, 12:22:47 PM
Ugh. Was a problem before with another antivirus for a previous version, too. Could you possibly report it as a false positive, if that's an option?

Avast sends the file to their "lab" to analyze it. It's possible to run the program anyway, and I've already reported the file as legit.

Quote
<goes back to waiting for bug reports to come in>

I, for one, look forward to what will be the first bug for this version.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:24:31 PM
Avast sends the file to their "lab" to analyze it. It's possible to run the program anyway, and I've already reported the file as legit.

Cool, thank you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Chronosfear on April 20, 2017, 12:27:24 PM
OMG OMG OMG  ::) its happening
downloading now  ;D

Hope i don´t encounter any bugs, but If i let you guys know.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 20, 2017, 12:28:45 PM
>WoT 0.9.18 releases a few days ago
>AW 0.19 releases TODAY
>SS 0.8a releases TODAY
>I have finals in TWO WEEKS
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF F-
-RIKKIN AWESOME
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 20, 2017, 12:30:53 PM
grats and thanks!! <3
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Warhunterpro on April 20, 2017, 12:33:46 PM
quick question.
(not sure where to put them since they are kind of minor)
is 3rd lvl helmsmanship supposed to work at 1% flux? probably forget the 0 perhaps?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 20, 2017, 12:35:59 PM
is 3rd lvl helmsmanship supposed to work at 1% flux? probably forget the 0 perhaps?
just 1% is correct, yes. basically you can use shields and very rapidly / continuously firing weapons if you've got enough dissipation, but not much besides that. it's not meant to really be a speed boost during actual combat.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:36:21 PM
It's 1%, yeah. Meaning that if it's anything other than absolutely minimal flux use, it turns off.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 20, 2017, 12:37:20 PM
Downloading...  I probably will not give much (detailed) feedback for a while.  I am kind of busy with other things right now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Warhunterpro on April 20, 2017, 12:40:36 PM
on a side note i died during the tutorial. didn't notice the hit F5 to quick save so i decided to go to the nearest planet since i didn't know what to do after salvage. apparently you start with transponders off and since turning it on/off is disabled in the tutorial i got wrecked by a hegemony fleet. woops XD
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 12:41:33 PM
Any changes to carriers or hullmods that need to be done?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on April 20, 2017, 12:44:35 PM
0.8a is out? Welp, there goes my productivity for the next few days/weeks/months.


<goes back to waiting for bug reports to come in>

I mean, if the past is any indication, then a hotfix for something or other will be in order. It'd be nice to buck the trend, though.

I've only encountered one minor bug, that being that mods don't seem to work in 0.8a due to the new jar filename case checker.
Spoiler
Quote
35185 [Thread-4] ERROR com.fs.starfarer.combat.CombatMain  - java.lang.RuntimeException: Filenames are case-sensitive, [C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\starsector-core\..\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar] vs [C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar]
java.lang.RuntimeException: Filenames are case-sensitive, [C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\starsector-core\..\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar] vs [C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar]
        at com.fs.starfarer.loading.scripts.ScriptStore$3.run(Unknown Source)
        at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]

I suppose I'll actually have to play the game for now instead of updating my mods. How horrible! :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:46:17 PM
Wait, wait - mods don't work *at all*? Or is it more of a "need to be adjusted to work" situation?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nick XR on April 20, 2017, 12:46:45 PM
Great work Alex!  
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: LazyWizard on April 20, 2017, 12:51:30 PM
I'd assume any mod that uses a jar. From the error log it looks like it's comparing the path relative to starsector-core to the absolute path of the jar.

So
C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\starsector-core\..\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar
vs
C:\Users\Rob\Programs\Starfarer\mods\LazyLib\jars\LazyLib.jar

And since these aren't identical strings it considers it a case-sensitivity difference and throws an exception.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 12:55:09 PM
Aaaah, this is due to a difference in how it's run from my IDE vs from the install. Going to have to get that sorted out in the near future - hotfix material for sure, but will wait for some other stuff to come in.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: WKOB on April 20, 2017, 12:59:08 PM
Aha, I found a problem already, you hack!

Screenshot, I believe that's intended to say ships. (https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/806551261315130934/F181BB4FF33EE1236204DC887FDAA1259047C94F/)

No, really, this is looking to be a great release.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on April 20, 2017, 01:01:18 PM
So good. I feel tingly.

I'm not looking forward to slogging through compatibility update(s) but my god you've given us some gorgeous toys to play with.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 01:05:40 PM
Aha, I found a problem already, you hack!

Screenshot, I believe that's intended to say ships. (https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/806551261315130934/F181BB4FF33EE1236204DC887FDAA1259047C94F/)

No, really, this is looking to be a great release.

Thank you & fixed :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArthropodOfDoom on April 20, 2017, 01:11:35 PM
Hmm, is the "recover all ships possible" mission notification not supposed to clear unless you do actually recover every ship you can? I have defeated the pirates at the station but it has not disappeared.  :-\

[edit]: Whoops, didn't realize you have to attack people at the jump points. Here we goooo!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 01:13:40 PM
I'm not sure what you mean - what are you calling the "mission notification"? Also, defeating the pirates at the station isn't part of the tutorial, so I'm further confused.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 20, 2017, 01:15:03 PM
It would've been really nice if there was a mechanism introduced to "Retrofit" (D) class vessels.

I would also like to add, after defeating the Pirate blockade of the jump point, I was able to recover a Sunder(D) Class Destroyer

I arrived to the nearest planet and stripped it for parts, and it also stripped off all but the Faulty Powergrid D-System of which there were roughly 5 or so.

(I neglected to take a before & after photo) Sorry.  :-\
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cycerin on April 20, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Not really a big issue given most first time players are veeery unlikely to run into it, but if you have one-click jump points enabled, the game will freeze at one point in the tutorial.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on April 20, 2017, 01:17:33 PM
I also fell into the trap of not seeing the quicksave instruction before heading to the Hegemony planet.

Saw an oddball thing where you could open the market window with Pontus or something. It displayed the default market blurb on the left about sleek attack ships or whatever.

I think in the tutorial when the station commander tells you to go and "activate an Active Sensor Burst" it would make more sense if they said to "use an Active Sensor Burst".

Overall, with many false starts and significant irritation at trying to lay a course and constantly getting sent to the planet screen, it took me about an hour to get through the tutorial. I think most of my trouble was starting on the next step before it told me to. :-X

So excite!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SeinTa on April 20, 2017, 01:18:49 PM
I have a question: Is there any way to swap "Show info" and "Lay in course", got used to clicking on a planet to go there and the info option makes things awkward, but other than that it's awesome.

Also HOLY CRAP that sector map!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 01:19:51 PM
Anyone else having to use 64 bit java to run vanilla?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 20, 2017, 01:23:28 PM
Yes.

I tried running Starsector out of the box, and got an out-of-memory error.

Tried Java-8 64-bit, but I got the warning.

So... I just installed Java-7 64-bit, and now Starsector is asking for my activation code.  Currently searching for it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 01:23:47 PM
It would've been really nice if there was a mechanism introduced to "Retrofit" (D) class vessels

What do you mean? There's a "restore" option in the refit screen when docked at a market, if that's along the lines of what you're asking.

Not really a big issue given most first time players are veeery unlikely to run into it, but if you have one-click jump points enabled, the game will freeze at one point in the tutorial.

I'm surprised "one-click jump-points" works at all - it's a half-baked, never-finished dev experiment :)

I also fell into the trap of not seeing the quicksave instruction before heading to the Hegemony planet.

Saw an oddball thing where you could open the market window with Pontus or something. It displayed the default market blurb on the left about sleek attack ships or whatever.

I think in the tutorial when the station commander tells you to go and "activate an Active Sensor Burst" it would make more sense if they said to "use an Active Sensor Burst".

Overall, with many false starts and significant irritation at trying to lay a course and constantly getting sent to the planet screen, it took me about an hour to get through the tutorial. I think most of my trouble was starting on the next step before it told me to. :-X

So excite!

Thanks, made some notes. The Pontus/market screen issue: yeah, the "Trade" button is supposed to be disabled there but isn't.

I have a question: Is there any way to swap "Show info" and "Lay in course", got used to clicking on a planet to go there and the info option makes things awkward, but other than that it's awesome.

Let me think about that one.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArthropodOfDoom on April 20, 2017, 01:27:07 PM
I'm not sure what you mean - what are you calling the "mission notification"? Also, defeating the pirates at the station isn't part of the tutorial, so I'm further confused.

Spoiler
(https://puu.sh/vqK82/307b9bc64b.png)
[close]

That little yellow exclamation point. I've recovered or salvaged all the ships from around there, and am currently fighting through the miners around the jump points.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Draba on April 20, 2017, 01:28:12 PM
But, but, I wanted to go to sleep :o
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on April 20, 2017, 01:29:04 PM
Will also add a +1 in swapping lay course and show planet info on the mouse drop. It's simply after playing the older version I'm used to one-click maneuvering.

I might be able to get used to it but more often than not, I'm looking to travel than get info.

Otherwise, the tutorial has been wonderful.

Found one typo, something like "It won't me a milk run" when it should probably be "It won't be a milk run"
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 20, 2017, 01:30:45 PM
I actually didn't notice the Restore Feature.
Very nice.

Also here's a photo of a salvaged sunder before & after, I seem to have got a 85%? "Free" restore" by simply Stripping it.

https://ibb.co/d4zW1Q
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: HELMUT on April 20, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
Thanks for the update Alex! That pesky sleep requirement won't allow me to go too far into the campaign for now, but i found something about the carrier skills :

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/mv1M0U8.png)
[close]

Those two are pretty much identical. Is something missing or it's just WIP?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 20, 2017, 01:37:22 PM
at work right now so I can't try for myself, but does this new system of (D) ships mean that (D) sprites are now defunct?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 01:38:23 PM
Mh, is the occasional random flickering of UI elements intentional? Could be part of a immersive UI, so I'm not sure. I noticed it first with the portraits in the character creation menu (which I only spent like 15 minutes starting at,hehe). It's in the trade menus too, though.



Also, overlap in the ship menu:

(http://i.imgur.com/YUJghDf.png)


Thanks for the update Alex! That pesky sleep requirement won't allow me to go too far into the campaign for now, but i found something about the carrier skills :

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/mv1M0U8.png)
[close]

Those two are pretty much identical. Is something missing or it's just WIP?

One is for your ship, the other for all. Seems a bit unbalanced, though?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SafariJohn on April 20, 2017, 01:46:45 PM
To echo SainnQ, the Strip button removes D hullmods from proc-gen D ships.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 01:49:16 PM
To echo SainnQ, the Strip button removes D hullmods from proc-gen D ships.
DAMNIT!!!
Also, to anyone getting an OoM crash on startup, set your allocation to 768MB and it should at least get you to the menu
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: WulfofSilver on April 20, 2017, 01:49:53 PM
So I installed the update, now my save files are not loading and are missing, what do?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: PCCL on April 20, 2017, 01:51:01 PM
I don't imagine an update of this size is possibly save compatible. If you'd like to keep playing on your old save, I'd try digging out the old installation from recycle bin
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 01:51:31 PM
I have a question: Is there any way to swap "Show info" and "Lay in course", got used to clicking on a planet to go there and the info option makes things awkward, but other than that it's awesome.

Let me think about that one.

Go the same "issue". As of now I want more often to travel to things than read about them. "A" is the shortcut for "lay in course" from the planet info menu, maybe enable the same shortcut from the map?


So I installed the update, now my save files are not loading and are missing, what do?

The save files from the previous version are not compatible. There's just too much new stuff! :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
Also here's a photo of a salvaged sunder before & after, I seem to have got a 85%? "Free" restore" by simply Stripping it.

https://ibb.co/d4zW1Q

Would you mind elaborating? I *think* you're saying that stripping the ship did the job of a "restore", but I can't reproduce that and I'm not sure what the 85% means.

Will also add a +1 in swapping lay course and show planet info on the mouse drop. It's simply after playing the older version I'm used to one-click maneuvering.

Yeah, I'll definitely look at that. The ordering was from before the "lay in course" feature being what it is now.

Found one typo, something like "It won't me a milk run" when it should probably be "It won't be a milk run"

Fixed.

Mh, is the occasional random flickering of UI elements intentional? Could be part of a immersive UI, so I'm not sure. I noticed it first with the portraits in the character creation menu (which I only spent like 15 minutes starting at,hehe). It's in the trade menus too, though.

Not intentional for sure. Are your drivers up-to-date? This has come up before (in fact, Stian ran into it on his computer) and it's just weird. Does seem to be OS/driver related, and I haven't been able to figure out how to work around it other than updating drivers.

Also: worth trying fullscreen mode vs max-size window, to see if one of those works better.

To echo SainnQ, the Strip button removes D hullmods from proc-gen D ships.

Aha - ok, got this. Will fix up soon, definitely another hotfix-worthy item.

Edit: fixed that up.

So I installed the update, now my save files are not loading and are missing, what do?

The new version is very much not save compatible with the previous one - it's practically a new game in many respects.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 20, 2017, 02:07:02 PM
Am I correct in assuming that Planet Survey is not one of the few more lucrative endeavors for the player, aside from Pirate Bountying?

The resale on D-Proc ships is abysmal
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 02:09:28 PM
Planet Survey can create various classes of Survey Data—the best class data sells for TONS.

You're totally not meant to sell salvaged ships, at all.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 02:10:05 PM
Am I correct in assuming that Planet Survey is not one of the few more lucrative endeavors for the player, aside from Pirate Bountying?

It's pretty lucrative, actually. You just have to get the skill and some ships with surveying equipment to minimize the expense. The high-class survey data is extremely valuable. There are also well-paying missions to survey specific planets.

The resale on D-Proc ships is abysmal

Yeep. So as you're not obligated to tow any ol' hulk along and sell it - the resources you get by breaking it down on the spot more than cover the resale value.

Edit: pretty much comprehensively ninja'ed :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 02:11:21 PM
Mh, I can supposedly salvage stuff with a rating up to 25%, but I have 0 salvage skill. Salvage skill 1 is supposed to allow me to salvage stuff with 25% rating.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/V63Cfr7.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/lF9E0HL.png)
[close]



Something to consider with "lay in course" from the map - for things that got no info option (fleets etc.) it's always the first option, so it happens with a simple click and is thus inconsistent with how it works for planets.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on April 20, 2017, 02:12:42 PM
Whoo! Best surprise to come home to work to, the updates released!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 02:16:44 PM
Mh, I can supposedly salvage stuff with a rating up to 25%, but I have 0 salvage skill. Salvage skill 1 is supposed to allow me to salvage stuff with 25% rating.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/V63Cfr7.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/lF9E0HL.png)
[close]

Possible to get your save? Or have you moved on from that point?

Assuming it's the probe from the tutorial, I'm not seeing the same thing.

Edit: ahh, I got it. Apparently spending/unspending a point in Salvaging does this. Looking into it!

Edit #2: Fixed!

Something to consider with "lay in course" from the map - for things that got no info option (fleets etc.) it's always the first option, so it happens with a simple click and is thus inconsistent with how it works for planets.

Yeah, will look at this for sure.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 20, 2017, 02:28:29 PM
Will saves created right now be compatible with the upcoming hotfix or should I wait? Abouts do you think you'll get that hotfix out—later tonight or tomorrow?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
Will saves created right now be compatible with the upcoming hotfix or should I wait? Abouts do you think you'll get that hotfix out—later tonight or tomorrow?

They *should* be compatible and I'll make every effort so that they are, but it's possible for a hypothetical issue to come up that would make it not so.

About the timing: not today, probably tomorrow or the day after. Unless there's a major crash bug that needs fixing ASAP.

(Oh, wow, this is freaky: exactly as I was typing "crash bug" here, Starsector - which was running in the background - crashed. Thankfully, due to a bug from the skill issue fix, so not something in the release. Still, weird!)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 20, 2017, 02:35:03 PM
I found my key, and Starsector with 64-bit Java (with 4 Mb allocated) runs fine for me now.

I studied the Codex for a while before beginning my new game.

I noticed some portraits were touched up.  Noticed Ryu (upper-left Hegemony officer left of Doomguy) is different.  Same thing with the one guy who used to have boatlight glasses, now they are all green.  My first character is Doomguy.  (Maybe later, I'll pick power ranger or other spaceman or ninja portraits.)

I took the Wolf starter with Shepherd, though I may leave it behind soon since it is -1 burn for my Wolf.  If Kite had the same burn as Wolf, but not Shepherd, I would have taken the Kite.  With burn speeds equal, Shepherd won out due to cargo space and other salvaging bonuses, not to mention as was in no mood start-scumming if I did not like the officer's portrait and/or name.

I will probably prioritize speed, shot range, flux, and maybe OP for skills, which there are not too many of.  I will probably complete ignore fighter skills.  Other things like more officers and loot stuff looks promising, but I will think about it later after I see how many skill points I have left to get what I really want.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 20, 2017, 02:35:41 PM
It just dawned on me after looking at the REDACTED Battle Carrier, that with the new fighter skills you added, 4 I believe.

Would turn that thing into an absurd monster of a Flagship. Good lord.

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on April 20, 2017, 02:38:11 PM
Not really a bug, but might turn out to be an issue: When you go through the combat tutorial, and destroy a ship, it's disabled wreckage pieces float about, and can get in the way when everything is reset/moved onto the next part.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 02:40:06 PM
Edit #2: Fixed!

:thumbsup.jpg:


I'm enjoying the tutorial immensely, so far :)



I don't think this description is fitting for Tetra, an uninhabited, radiated planet without atmosphere:
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/S9CX8oh.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 02:59:31 PM
Not really a bug, but might turn out to be an issue: When you go through the combat tutorial, and destroy a ship, it's disabled wreckage pieces float about, and can get in the way when everything is reset/moved onto the next part.

Bah, that just adds character :)

I don't think this description is fitting for Tetra, an uninhabited, radiated planet without atmosphere:
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/S9CX8oh.png)
[close]

Yeah, I need to fix that up - the button's supposed to be disabled.

... there, done.

I'm enjoying the tutorial immensely, so far :)

:D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 20, 2017, 03:01:14 PM
I'm losing CR despite there being no enemy ships anywhere near me.

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/vKS9SCe.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/WX6VsU9.png)
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 20, 2017, 03:02:54 PM
This is amazing. Just started the tutorial, really nice so far.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 03:04:16 PM
I'm losing CR despite there being no enemy ships anywhere near me.

Is the number actually going down, or is it just because it says "degrading readiness"? I *suspect* it's saying "degrading readiness" but the number isn't going down (which is still an issue if that's the case, that's definitely confusing.)

This is amazing. Just started the tutorial, really nice so far.

Thank you! Hope it holds up :)

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Soychi on April 20, 2017, 03:07:12 PM
I'm so happy all the goats and chickens were not in vain ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on April 20, 2017, 03:11:02 PM
Erm, The in campaign tutorial start, is either not working properly for me, or not explaining itself. I started out, with it telling me to go salvage from debris, which I did, and then nothing else after. I don't have access to turning my transponder on either, so I can't go near the hegemony station.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 03:12:44 PM
Erm, The in campaign tutorial start, is either not working properly for me, or not explaining itself. I started out, with it telling me to go salvage from debris, which I did, and then nothing else after. I don't have access to turning my transponder on either, so I can't go near the hegemony station.

Press F5 to quicksave and it'll move on to the next step.

(Made a note to make the instruction to do that more prominent. It's on the bottom of the screen, above the abilities.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on April 20, 2017, 03:13:59 PM
Erm, The in campaign tutorial start, is either not working properly for me, or not explaining itself. I started out, with it telling me to go salvage from debris, which I did, and then nothing else after. I don't have access to turning my transponder on either, so I can't go near the hegemony station.

Press F5 to quicksave and it'll move on to the next step.

(Made a note to make the instruction to do that more prominent. It's on the bottom of the screen, above the abilities.)
... -facedesks- My bad. I thought it was just a tip, not an instruction. Whoops.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Groufac on April 20, 2017, 03:17:32 PM
Erm, The in campaign tutorial start, is either not working properly for me, or not explaining itself. I started out, with it telling me to go salvage from debris, which I did, and then nothing else after. I don't have access to turning my transponder on either, so I can't go near the hegemony station.
I had the same issue. So Hegemony went hostile on me after I failed to turn on the transponder.
I reloaded a previous save and it worked.

Edit: Oh okay!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 20, 2017, 03:37:59 PM
Oof, didn't realize the tutorial would actually give me stuff; bought all that equipment for nothing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on April 20, 2017, 03:39:15 PM
Very first play through of the tutorial got hung up on the salvage ship section. Even after salvaging/pounding everything (I detonated the Condor), The mission never completed. On a second playthrough, I noticed that after adding the Condor to my fleet, the exclamation point over the planet went away. Perhaps you should be more explicit that you should take every ship available?

I'm probably an outlier because I have past playing experience but that seemed to sequence-break the tutorial.

Speaking of: the fleet you leave the tutorial with (in addition to the credits, weapons, skill points, etc.) is leaps and bounds superior than the quick start.  I get you can get a decent ship at start in the tutorial with the 30k credits but flying around with 6-7 ships at "start" is a huge leg up in the early game. I'm not sure if I should say "bravo!" (which I will anyway: the tutorial is fantastic) or "tutorial is pretty much mandatory."
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ANGRYABOUTELVES on April 20, 2017, 03:41:12 PM
Is the number actually going down, or is it just because it says "degrading readiness"? I *suspect* it's saying "degrading readiness" but the number isn't going down (which is still an issue if that's the case, that's definitely confusing.)
It was actually going down when I took the screenshot, but a couple of seconds later it stopped. The interesting thing is there was a ship I was running away from that wasn't in my sensor range, and I think it was just on the edge of being visible. There might be a slight mismatch in visual range vs in-combat range.

The "degrading readiness" indicator did not go away even after the CR number stopped going down.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on April 20, 2017, 03:42:20 PM
I like the new description for the Ion Pulser. ;D

A few minor quibbles:



The Prometheus-class still uses PD drones as its ship system. Also the drones (both high-tech and midline, as well as Sensor, Terminator and Borer) still show up under Ship Systems in the codex.

The Flash Bomber's description states it uses proximity charges that "employs the principles of the phase cloak". Is this purely flavour or has the prox. charge launcher changed in some way? The description of the weapon itself doesn't seem to suggest any changes.

The damage type explanations for Energy and Fragmentation both mention hull damage, but it doesn't for Explosives and Kinetics. Given that hull damage is always 100% it's probably unnecessary information anyway, although might be worth adding it to everything for the sake of new players? Either way seems fine.

The Devastator Cannon's description keeps mentioning frag damage and how terrible it is against armour, but given it's actually Explosive it seems like it would be reasonable against armour. Granted I haven't actually tried it out yet, so it may be as terrible as the description keeps telling me.

Some variant hulls seem to be hidden in the Codex. E.g. Pirate Buffalo, Pirate Wolf. At first I thought they were deleted (Pirate Buffalo to be honest makes little sense, what's the point of a smuggler's hold and then painting your ship in PIRATE COLOURS OF DOOM), but they still turn up in-game.

Given the Terminator drone doesn't use a phase cloak anymore, should its sprite be changed to drone_terminator? The one without phase coils? Also minor typo in its description: "if orderd".

Is there a point to the Salvage Rig when the Shepherd has the exact same hullmod and is just generally a lot more useful?

The Harbinger's new description has a minor typo: last line of first paragraph, "Everything that can possible can wrong does".

There are no more Assault Fighters. :( I get why this is with the new fighter changes, but the tab still exists in the Codex. Also some more fighters might be better under "Support Fighters" (e.g. Claw, and previously Longbow), as it is it's just Xyphos: unless Support Fighters are now only meant to be long-ranged support.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Cik on April 20, 2017, 03:50:32 PM
i salvaged the stuff around tetra but it says i need to go to tetra and salvage things

also there's no option to say i did it or any indication that progressing is possible

hep
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 03:56:34 PM
Something for the hotfix: If you sell degraded ships, you don't get paid the normal price for their weapons. I just sold a degraded Condor with 2 LPCs for 900 space bucks (which is a major annoyance in Iron Mode). Don't know how it is for normal ships.

i salvaged the stuff around tetra but it says i need to go to tetra and salvage things

also there's no option to say i did it or any indication that progressing is possible

hep

Did you capture all the ships? If you break any the tutorial apparently doesn't proceed.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 03:57:34 PM
i salvaged the stuff around tetra but it says i need to go to tetra and salvage things

also there's no option to say i did it or any indication that progressing is possible

hep
Hit F5
Erm, The in campaign tutorial start, is either not working properly for me, or not explaining itself. I started out, with it telling me to go salvage from debris, which I did, and then nothing else after. I don't have access to turning my transponder on either, so I can't go near the hegemony station.

Press F5 to quicksave and it'll move on to the next step.

(Made a note to make the instruction to do that more prominent. It's on the bottom of the screen, above the abilities.)
Alex, I think this is one reason why people are getting hung up in the ship salvage area: http://imgur.com/a/0u0zw
There is no indicator to quicksave after salvaging everything
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: WKOB on April 20, 2017, 04:01:14 PM
Very first play through of the tutorial got hung up on the salvage ship section. Even after salvaging/pounding everything (I detonated the Condor), The mission never completed. On a second playthrough, I noticed that after adding the Condor to my fleet, the exclamation point over the planet went away. Perhaps you should be more explicit that you should take every ship available?

I'm probably an outlier because I have past playing experience but that seemed to sequence-break the tutorial.

Speaking of: the fleet you leave the tutorial with (in addition to the credits, weapons, skill points, etc.) is leaps and bounds superior than the quick start.  I get you can get a decent ship at start in the tutorial with the 30k credits but flying around with 6-7 ships at "start" is a huge leg up in the early game. I'm not sure if I should say "bravo!" (which I will anyway: the tutorial is fantastic) or "tutorial is pretty much mandatory."
While I'd agree with you that there is a mis-balance, I'm not sure it actually needs fixing.

A newer player gets a more established and less painful start, while an experienced player can start out their own way.

For me, I hated the half-derelict, slow fleet that I ended the tutorial with so I just used it to make one good trade run and traded it all in for three new Wolves. :D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on April 20, 2017, 04:07:01 PM
Good job Alex!
Very impressive expansion to the scope of the campaign!

Now pls nerf Harpoons; they're the single most obnoxious weapon to face in the very early game!
Incredibly easy for your ship to simply get 'deleted' by a barrage of them from 2 frigates. (whether or not you're overloaded)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 04:08:35 PM
Very first play through of the tutorial got hung up on the salvage ship section. Even after salvaging/pounding everything (I detonated the Condor), The mission never completed. On a second playthrough, I noticed that after adding the Condor to my fleet, the exclamation point over the planet went away. Perhaps you should be more explicit that you should take every ship available?
I actually did and it didn't advance even after quicksaving
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 04:13:13 PM
Very first play through of the tutorial got hung up on the salvage ship section. Even after salvaging/pounding everything (I detonated the Condor), The mission never completed. On a second playthrough, I noticed that after adding the Condor to my fleet, the exclamation point over the planet went away. Perhaps you should be more explicit that you should take every ship available?

I need to look into this - iirc you need to salvage 3 ships or so. Ohhh... I think I know what the problem might be - if the ships don't end up with any d-mods (which there's a slight chance of?) then it might not count them. Not 100% sure, though, will look into it.

Speaking of: the fleet you leave the tutorial with (in addition to the credits, weapons, skill points, etc.) is leaps and bounds superior than the quick start.  I get you can get a decent ship at start in the tutorial with the 30k credits but flying around with 6-7 ships at "start" is a huge leg up in the early game. I'm not sure if I should say "bravo!" (which I will anyway: the tutorial is fantastic) or "tutorial is pretty much mandatory."

Hmm - but the ships you get are... let's be generous and say "not very good". Plus they need fuel, making further exploration/bounty hunting/fringe missions more expensive to outfit for.

Edit: also, thank you!
Edit #2: you can also go back to Galatia and grab those ships w/o doing the tutorial.

Is the number actually going down, or is it just because it says "degrading readiness"? I *suspect* it's saying "degrading readiness" but the number isn't going down (which is still an issue if that's the case, that's definitely confusing.)
It was actually going down when I took the screenshot, but a couple of seconds later it stopped. The interesting thing is there was a ship I was running away from that wasn't in my sensor range, and I think it was just on the edge of being visible. There might be a slight mismatch in visual range vs in-combat range.

The "degrading readiness" indicator did not go away even after the CR number stopped going down.

Ok, thank you - yeah, the range in the fog of war is inexact sometimes, and iirc CR takes a second or two to stop ticking down in any case.



The Flash Bomber's description states it uses proximity charges that "employs the principles of the phase cloak". Is this purely flavour or has the prox. charge launcher changed in some way? The description of the weapon itself doesn't seem to suggest any changes.

Purely flavor.


The damage type explanations for Energy and Fragmentation both mention hull damage, but it doesn't for Explosives and Kinetics. Given that hull damage is always 100% it's probably unnecessary information anyway, although might be worth adding it to everything for the sake of new players? Either way seems fine.

I'll probably leave it as-is, then - I think the current descriptions are fine.

The Devastator Cannon's description keeps mentioning frag damage and how terrible it is against armour, but given it's actually Explosive it seems like it would be reasonable against armour. Granted I haven't actually tried it out yet, so it may be as terrible as the description keeps telling me.
The Harbinger's new description has a minor typo: last line of first paragraph, "Everything that can possible can wrong does".

Adjusted, thank you.


Is there a point to the Salvage Rig when the Shepherd has the exact same hullmod and is just generally a lot more useful?

Well, it's +25% vs +10% for the Shepherd.

There are no more Assault Fighters. :( I get why this is with the new fighter changes, but the tab still exists in the Codex. Also some more fighters might be better under "Support Fighters" (e.g. Claw, and previously Longbow), as it is it's just Xyphos: unless Support Fighters are now only meant to be long-ranged support.

Yeah, the Codex. The Codex. Needs an eventual overhaul just in general.


Something for the hotfix: If you sell degraded ships, you don't get paid the normal price for their weapons. I just sold a degraded Condor with 2 LPCs for 900 space bucks (which is a major annoyance in Iron Mode). Don't know how it is for normal ships.

Noted.

Alex, I think this is one reason why people are getting hung up in the ship salvage area: http://imgur.com/a/0u0zw
There is no indicator to quicksave after salvaging everything

Ahh, that could be it - although it shouldn't require you to quicksave. Hmm. I've gone through it like 10 times, but I've always recovered every ship (though it gives you the next stage before you do).


Good job Alex!
Very impressive expansion to the scope of the campaign!

Now pls nerf Harpoons; they're the single most obnoxious weapon to face in the very early game!
Incredibly easy for your ship to simply get 'deleted' by a barrage of them from 2 frigates. (whether or not you're overloaded)

Thank you!

I don't know about the Harpoons; there's lots of things you can do to avoid them and I think it's great that even early enemies have some teeth.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 20, 2017, 04:14:32 PM
Oh god... Had to happen while I was asleep, didn't it?  ;D Good morning 0.8!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 04:19:27 PM
I'm having a lot of fun with the update, but one thing that detracts from the enjoyment a bit is fairly poor performance in campaign mode. With stock JRE, I was getting some stuttering and drops below 60 FPS in normal time, and severe stuttering with <40 FPS with shift held down. Switching to 64-bit JRE and giving it double memory helped significantly, but it's still not as good as I'd like, considering that this is a high-end system (i7-6700HQ, GTX 980M) and the game has no mods.

Combat is silky smooth though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 04:31:41 PM
I'm having a lot of fun with the update, but one thing that detracts from the enjoyment a bit is fairly poor performance in campaign mode. With stock JRE, I was getting some stuttering and drops below 60 FPS in normal time, and severe stuttering with <40 FPS with shift held down. Switching to 64-bit JRE and giving it double memory helped significantly, but it's still not as good as I'd like, considering that this is a high-end system (i7-6700HQ, GTX 980M) and the game has no mods.

Combat is silky smooth though.

Hmm, that doesn't make a lot of sense. My system is probably worse and I don't get that - very occasional dips to below 60 with shift held down, at worst. And double memory should not help *at all* here.

Updating the graphics drivers may be worth a shot? Or just a reboot? Or closing other applications/browser tabs playing video/etc? This really seems abnormal, I wonder what's causing it.

I mean, yes, the campaign screen in hyperspace is probably the most intensive part of the game performance-wise, but that still doesn't explain what you're seeing.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on April 20, 2017, 04:32:49 PM
A thought for new players.

In the tutorial it tells you to move up to the salvage field, but it doesn't tell you how. Press W? Up arrow? Left click? Right click? We've all played this game for ages so we know how things work, but a player completely new to SS probably won't. Saying "move up" makes me think of W/up arrow, but if you actually press W it changes the ability bar and then you can't press "Salvage".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 04:36:27 PM
A thought for new players.

In the tutorial it tells you to move up to the salvage field, but it doesn't tell you how. Press W? Up arrow? Left click? Right click? We've all played this game for ages so we know how things work, but a player completely new to SS probably won't. Saying "move up" makes me think of W/up arrow, but if you actually press W it changes the ability bar and then you can't press "Salvage".

Excellent point; added an extra bit of info there.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 04:38:20 PM
Alex, I think I know why the campaign isn't advancing: lack of D mods on your ships that you salvage. If someone takes the skill that reduces the chance of D mods on ships, it can make ships not have D mods and allow you to get 2 or more pristine ships, locking up the tutorial
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 04:39:35 PM
Alex, I think I know why the campaign isn't advancing: lack of D mods on your ships that you salvage. If someone takes the skill that reduces the chance of D mods on ships, it can make ships not have D mods and allow you to get 2 or more pristine ships, locking up the tutorial

That would do it, but can you even get 6 skill points by then? Seems like it'd be tough.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 20, 2017, 04:40:01 PM
A few things:

First, good god Talons are dirty little bastards now.

Second, one of the combat skills (something countermeasures) has a description that says that the skill allows various defenses to excel in their roles, yet it boosts shields against high explosive and armor against kinetic. Is this supposed to be a case? If so, I find the skill description a little confusing.

Third, did you remove the pause at the end of the combat dialog? Was there one to begin with?

Lastly, is there any way to influence the new skills that your officer might learn? Kinda frustrating when you want an officer that can fly a really good fast attack frigate, but the game keeps insisting they get carrier skills.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on April 20, 2017, 04:42:37 PM
A few things:

First, good god Talons are dirty little bastards now.

Second, one of the combat skills (something countermeasures) has a description that says that the skill allows various defenses to excel in their roles, yet it boosts shields against high explosive and armor against kinetic. Is this supposed to be a case? If so, I find the skill description a little confusing.

Third, did you remove the pause at the end of the combat dialog? Was there one to begin with?

Lastly, is there any way to influence the new skills that your officer might learn? Kinda frustrating when you want an officer that can fly a really good fast attack frigate, but the game keeps insisting they get carrier skills.

Well, the role of shields is to block explosive damage and the role of armour is to block kinetic damage, so the skill making them "excel at their role" seems pretty fitting (though the practical benefits of this skill is questionable I feel).

I agree the opposite might be more useful, but then it would be "covering their weaknesses", not "excel at their role".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 04:43:47 PM
Quote from: Alex
Hmm, that doesn't make a lot of sense. My system is probably worse and I don't get that - very occasional dips to below 60 with shift held down, at worst. And double memory should not help *at all* here.

Updating the graphics drivers may be worth a shot? Or just a reboot? Or closing other applications/browser tabs playing video/etc? This really seems abnormal, I wonder what's causing it.

I mean, yes, the campaign screen in hyperspace is probably the most intensive part of the game performance-wise, but that still doesn't explain what you're seeing.

Well, the double memory was just futureproofing for mods, I assume it was the 64-bit java that made the difference.

It's not too bad, but I'm flying around in Askonia with shift hovering at 55 FPS and there's clearly lots of jitter (I normally can't tell 45 and 60 FPS apart if both are consistent, but I can easily see the lack of smoothness here). Worlds better than it was before I replaced the JRE, though.

Reboot and closing stuff doesn't seem to have made a difference. Drivers are newest. Also I'm 100% sure I'm running the game on the dedicated GPU, because I'm playing it on an external monitor and programs on external monitors can't run on the integrated GPU at all.

(Also, I just recovered a Prometheus from a random, very small debris field o_o)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 04:51:39 PM
Second, one of the combat skills (something countermeasures) has a description that says that the skill allows various defenses to excel in their roles, yet it boosts shields against high explosive and armor against kinetic. Is this supposed to be a case? If so, I find the skill description a little confusing.

The "role" of armor is to block kinetic damage, isn't it? I mean, I can sort of see how one would think offensively and consider armor's role as "to get mauled by high explosive damage", but...

Or am I missing something?

Third, did you remove the pause at the end of the combat dialog? Was there one to begin with?

Actually not sure.

Lastly, is there any way to influence the new skills that your officer might learn? Kinda frustrating when you want an officer that can fly a really good fast attack frigate, but the game keeps insisting they get carrier skills.

I think if one is judicious about when to pick a new skill and when to increase an existing one, one will end up with something reasonable most of the time, just given how the probabilities work out.

It's not too bad, but I'm flying around in Askonia with shift hovering at 55 FPS and there's clearly lots of jitter (I normally can't tell 45 and 60 FPS apart if both are consistent, but I can easily see the lack of smoothness here). Worlds better than it was before I replaced the JRE, though.

Reboot and closing stuff doesn't seem to have made a difference. Drivers are newest. Also I'm 100% sure I'm running the game on the dedicated GPU, because I'm playing it on an external monitor and programs on external monitors can't run on the integrated GPU at all.

Ok, that's just odd. I can't think of why the in-system frame rate would be any lower than it was before - in-hyperspace, *maybe*, but in-system? (For comparison: holding down shift near Sindria, while in a large fleet: 25% idle. GTX 680 and i7-3930K CPU.)

Maybe worth trying to run it on a non-external monitor for comparison? Also, fullscreen/not fullscreen could make a difference, perhaps. Another thing to try would be to change the affinity of the process to run on a different CPU core, and/or to tweak the priority.

(Also, I just recovered a Prometheus from a random, very small debris field o_o)

!!!

Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 20, 2017, 04:58:30 PM
I just tried my first mission, The Last Hurrah.

OMG Fighters! And their missiles! Everywhere! Hundreds, swarms, swirling clouds, so fast, can't follow! Fun!

Not sure if this even winnable yet ;D


But, assuming things didn't change since the blogpost, the replacement rate is funky. I pilot a Heron. Fighters are on regroup orders, but my replacement rate just doesn't go up from 30%, even after about a minute of evading the enemy. Also, it kept going down after some time after I switched to regroup, which, supposedly, it should not.

edit/ It startet going up after I lost some regrouping fighters.



Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: stormbringer951 on April 20, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
Sustained burn seems to trivialise sneaking into markets. It doesn't seem to increase your sensor profile by an appreciable amount and you can use it to get away from large fleets guarding the market fairly easily. They can eat my space dust as I supercruise through at burn 19 with my transponder off, (very briefly) stop to buy a ship off the black market, then continue powering away at high burn before they even get underway.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: BillyRueben on April 20, 2017, 05:07:47 PM
Second, one of the combat skills (something countermeasures) has a description that says that the skill allows various defenses to excel in their roles, yet it boosts shields against high explosive and armor against kinetic. Is this supposed to be a case? If so, I find the skill description a little confusing.

The "role" of armor is to block kinetic damage, isn't it? I mean, I can sort of see how one would think offensively and consider armor's role as "to get mauled by high explosive damage", but...

Or am I missing something?

No, maybe not. I guess I've always connected kinetic with shields and HE with armor.

Lastly, is there any way to influence the new skills that your officer might learn? Kinda frustrating when you want an officer that can fly a really good fast attack frigate, but the game keeps insisting they get carrier skills.

I think if one is judicious about when to pick a new skill and when to increase an existing one, one will end up with something reasonable most of the time, just given how the probabilities work out.


I can see why you would think that, but when the options for three straight levels are "increase this skill or get strike commander", and strike commander was STILL an option when I had to select a new skill, it starts to get a little frustrating. I guess I just got a bad draw.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 05:09:21 PM
Well, if I figure out something that affects it I'll let you know.

Two bugs:

* you can't lay in course to a nebula from the system info screen, the button does nothing (which I suppose makes some kind of sense because there isn't a body selected, but in that case it should lay in course to a jump point, which is what it does when you lay in course to a nebula from the map)

* when you kill a bounty target but part of the fleet survives, it still has the yellow exclamation mark symbol even though you've killed the target and the bounty is complete.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Clockwork Owl on April 20, 2017, 05:18:04 PM
While doing campaign tutorial, salvaging Domain Probes multiple times always guarantee a Gamma Core drop each time. I...don't think it's supposed to be happening?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on April 20, 2017, 05:18:52 PM
For the mission log "Acquire jump-point data at Derinkuyu", the summary says "contact $dataContactName"... also in the very first transmission from the Ancyra commander, at one point he/she says something like "we're cut off from Sector like the Sector is cut off from the Domain", should probably be "we're cut off from the Sector".
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 05:23:20 PM
Something that bothers me is that uninhabited planets in core systems are not surveyed already. Doesn't seem right that I can survey a planet that's in a system that has been inhabited and trafficked for ages, and somehow get new information worth 50,000 credits. (This happened twice, and they were 0% and 25% hazard planets, too.)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Midnight Kitsune on April 20, 2017, 05:36:00 PM
Alex, I think I know why the campaign isn't advancing: lack of D mods on your ships that you salvage. If someone takes the skill that reduces the chance of D mods on ships, it can make ships not have D mods and allow you to get 2 or more pristine ships, locking up the tutorial

That would do it, but can you even get 6 skill points by then? Seems like it'd be tough.
You can if you take on the station fleet, which isn't hard at all
Also, is there anything new to do to carriers or hullmods to get them into the game?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 20, 2017, 05:49:06 PM
You can if you take on the station fleet, which isn't hard at all
Also, is there anything new to do to carriers or hullmods to get them into the game?
I checked the hullmods file and the only new column is their monetary value, I think. There's probably some LPC stuff that needs to be done but I didn't check.

By the way, loving the update so far. Haven't explored too far into the randomly generated areas, just far enough to do
some analysing contracts (I feel like they might pay a little too much, 60000 for doing pretty much nothing but using some fuel feels pretty weird),
fighting some extremely flimsy REDACTED (how on Earth did David die to them, they're pretty much cannon fodder),
finding a MORE REDACTED-"infested" system (like 8 ships total and half of them just sat around doing nothing, maybe they should have bigger fleets, pretty underwhelming considering the warning you get),
salvaging a GOD DARN ODYSSEY with most of its weapons intact, including a longbow wing and Guardian PD system, and only a Glitched Sensors dmod to show for it, guarded by two MORE REDACTED slacker fleets who didn't seem to care
and finding a neutron star, where I was surprised to see the awesome pulsar effect that it has on the system, especially how the pulsar is blocked by planets.

Also, I got stuck on the tutorial at the scavenging bit. Game doesn't actually tell me to quicksave, went and killed all the miner fleets but just restarted without the tutorial and I guess I know now. Was hoping to get the Converted Hangar hullmod but all my markets just have Stabilised Shields, ECCM, Expanded Magazines and Expanded Missile Racks. Can't wait to get destroyed by the inevitable MORE REDACTED capital ship or station.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Abradolf Lincler on April 20, 2017, 06:07:19 PM
420 BLAZIN IT INTO THE STARS!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: ArkAngel on April 20, 2017, 06:08:06 PM
The supposedly abandoned station in Asharu seems to not be so abandoned, judging from it's description.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 20, 2017, 06:22:21 PM
The REDACTED come in all sizes, including some seriously scary ones.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 20, 2017, 06:38:37 PM
The REDACTED come in all sizes, including some seriously scary ones.
So far I've just met the absurdly weak ones, the annoying Wolf-like ones and the Ion Pulser ones. Do they scale with distance from the center of the sector? I kind of want to fight the destroyer-sized ones, which hopefully doesn't result in my fleet being wiped. I've got a Wolf, Hammerhead, Mora, Condor and the Odyssey, plus a Kite and Shepherd. Need some cash before I can fill out my flagship's large mounts.

By the way, do randomly-generated systems ever have markets? All I've encountered are lifeless systems, except for the one with REDACTED and the occasional bounty fleet.

Other fun fact: the Luddic Path now have their own market, with a military nonetheless.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Thaago on April 20, 2017, 06:50:57 PM
Question: is there any way to tell how many times a field has been salvaged? I ran into an issue where it was a field I had already salvaged, so I took hefty losses.

So far I'm loving .8! Marvelously done Alex!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: cjuicy on April 20, 2017, 07:04:03 PM
Can you salvage /REDACTED/ ships guarding derelicts?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 20, 2017, 07:08:04 PM
Can you salvage /REDACTED/ ships guarding derelicts?
Don't think so. None of the high-tech frigate-sized ones are worth it, anyway, though maybe the larger ones are better. Better off just buying a Wolf or something. The midline ones are basically crappier Hounds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: JohnDoe on April 20, 2017, 08:12:51 PM
Quote
Flagship and ships with an officer in command nearly guaranteed to be recoverable if lost
Why nearly? And how is it determined?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: megalon on April 20, 2017, 08:13:32 PM
.8 released! Nice!

And in the correct state of mind for it currently being today and all! Awesome.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 08:14:09 PM
Sorry I haven't been replying to everything here - focused on getting the hotfix out tomorrow, and there's a bunch to get done. Keeping an eye on everything, though.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Warhunterpro on April 20, 2017, 08:23:56 PM
how do you tell if the neutrino scanner is picking up a false reading or not? (i don't mean at a glance when you first activate it i mean when you follow the ping but don't find anything by the time you reach the end of the grid in the system map view?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 08:25:26 PM
If the direction of a reading doesn't change when you move laterally it's most likely false.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Harmful Mechanic on April 20, 2017, 09:06:12 PM
I would love to be able to tell my second-in-command to fight automated defenses. Beyond the first few times they really are just a stomp, and getting through that screen to the tasty tasty loot faster would be nice.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 20, 2017, 09:56:29 PM
I'm searching to make sure I didn't miss any enemy ships, but after blowing up a
Spoiler
Domain-Era Mothership, part by part
[close]
the battle hasn't ended. I only have the option the Exit Game, no victory or anything.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 20, 2017, 09:59:29 PM
Did it blow up in its entirety, with the big whiteout and everything?

Edit: just gave it a quick go and it seems to end properly for me, hmm.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 20, 2017, 10:05:30 PM
Did it blow up in its entirety, with the big whiteout and everything?

Edit: just gave it a quick go and it seems to end properly for me, hmm.

It did, and the main portion is still there in all it's blown up decal glory, dead. Guess I'll try killing it again.

EDIT: Blew it up again, same problem.

Spoiler
Blew up all the gunports, masts, shield, etc., and it exploded leaving the mainbody's husk.
[close]

EDIT2: Don't know if it's any different, but I forgot to mention that it's a
Spoiler
Domain-Era Survey Mothership
[close]
Forgot to mention it.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Nanao-kun on April 20, 2017, 11:13:42 PM
I think I figured out the problem. One of the ships (the cruiser) never entered the battle.

EDIT: Decided to try and retreat to see what happens... and the moment I unpause after ordering a full retreat, the rest of the enemies charge in. Weird.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: mertvoe on April 21, 2017, 12:16:35 AM
??????? ??! YEEEEH!! 0.8 :D Thank you!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Kell on April 21, 2017, 01:08:26 AM
great work!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Hazard on April 21, 2017, 03:27:59 AM
Yay! Good work devs.

Now, if only there was a magic button to get all the mods updated... ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ronald Klein on April 21, 2017, 03:29:55 AM

  I found a rather gamebreaking bug. I can't load my savegame. This was after I had quit from a three fleet pirate ambush mid-battle and was trying to reload at the main menu. It just gave the standard error message.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Inventor Raccoon on April 21, 2017, 03:41:26 AM
Fought a Mudskipper MK2 with a hellbore. Killed it, got the Hellbore. Salvaged the wreckage, got ANOTHER hellbore. What.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Mr_7 on April 21, 2017, 03:43:39 AM

  I found a rather gamebreaking bug. I can't load my savegame. This was after I had quit from a three fleet pirate ambush mid-battle and was trying to reload at the main menu. It just gave the standard error message.

Had the same issue yesterday, Alex has fixed it in the next patch coming hopefully today, save should work again.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 21, 2017, 03:49:26 AM
Why is heavy mortar's OP cost 7? I think it's a bit too low, it's solid weapon with stats already (though aim is bad after a while and projectiles are slow).

Fought a Mudskipper MK2 with a hellbore. Killed it, got the Hellbore. Salvaged the wreckage, got ANOTHER hellbore. What.
You obviously built a hellbore from a mudskipper, duh.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: AxleMC131 on April 21, 2017, 03:52:53 AM
Fought a Mudskipper MK2 with a hellbore. Killed it, got the Hellbore. Salvaged the wreckage, got ANOTHER hellbore. What.

You obviously built a hellbore from a mudskipper, duh.

Nah, the pirates were carrying a spare gun in the cargo bay.  ;)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SCC on April 21, 2017, 04:34:15 AM
>Find Mora in derelict field
>Find it's crew in another derelict
Didn't expect that, it was quite nice. It's a shame that I had to left out 5 hundreds of ore and metal because I found them first...
Also: sustained burn is SO GOOD. It makes me not care about what ships do I have because I won't be slow anyway.
Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/poPmJ1M.jpg)Sindria pls
[close]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 05:35:21 AM
The easy fleet from the tutorial is nice.  The best part is looting the Heavy Blaster from the Wolf.  There is also another Salamander, but I could not remember if it came from the wrecked fleet or the free storage.  Combined with stealing the other Salamander from my Shepherd, I got my Heavy Blaster Wolf with two Salamanders and three PD lasers.

Talons are nasty.  They are old Broadswords with Vulcan instead of LMGs.

Re: Heavy Mortar
The cost is fine.  It is the HE version of Arbalest.  If Heavy Mortar costs more, I want 800 range to match heavy AC.  As for Heavy Mortar, it is good for the Hammerhead when I did not have two LAGs for the front mounts.  It got by with two Heavy Mortars and two Light Autocannons.

Re: Sustained Burn
This is like running in Doom, where you always held the Shift key because the speed increase is all good and no downside.  Despite reduced maneuverability, the extra speed more than makes up for it.  It is so good that I have Sustained Burn on the vast majority of the time.  Only when I need agility do I briefly deactivate Sustained Burn.  Sustained Burn makes it easy to chase down fleeing enemy fleets.  One big plus of Sustained Burn that I see is slow burn speed from civilians, capitals, and damage ships is not a dealbreaker as it has in the past.  Before 0.8, I considered burn speed a god stat; to the point I considered Venture useless and battlecruisers not worth their cost, plus adding tugs for each of my slowest ships (either one battleship or three Atlases).  Now, Sustained Burn gives so much burn that slow ships does not seem to be a big deal.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 21, 2017, 05:53:48 AM
i think i found a bug: with my first 4 skill points in the tutorial, i initially put 2 into Technology aptitude and 2 into Sensors, but then reset the points and went for something else rather than confirming the selection. however, it seems the 25% sensor-profile reduction from Sensors rank 2 was still permanently applied to my fleet, despite not having committed any points to that skill now. at least that's what the sensor-profile modifiers in the tooltip and the total number show, i can't say whether the actual numbers used in calculating detection ranges are affected as well.


I can't load my savegame.
whenever you save your game, it also automatically creates a backup copy of your previous save point. you'll still lose the progress you've made between those two save points, but at least you don't have to start an entirely new campaign if one save gets corrupted.

you can revert to the backup by deleting campaign.xml and descriptor.xml in \Starsector\saves\save_NameGoesHere_1234567890, then create new copies of the two corresponding .bak files (just in case corruption happens again ^^), and rename those copies to campaign.xml and descriptor.xml again. then just normally load the then-latest campaign save as usual.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: SainnQ on April 21, 2017, 05:55:52 AM
Are the Talon Interceptors really that good? They seem weak unless your stacking fighter skills for that -50% Damage Resistance.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: vitowns on April 21, 2017, 06:00:17 AM
I think i messed-up tutorial by selling ships i got from the graveyard, well two of them! I didn't realise i had to liberate the jump gate after using those ships do i need to restart? I tried to fight without that extra firepower and sucked lol

Edit: I wanted to explore hyperspace right away but i need to do the tutorial right? Forced tutorials make me rage even though this one is really good :(

Edit: All is good made a new game and skipped tutorial, :D Awesome update btw
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: borgrel on April 21, 2017, 06:30:36 AM
So questions regarding ECM and Coordinated Manouvres:

1) Can other fleets have these skills (eg. Hegemony Strike fleet)
2) If you join a battle between Heg and pirates that has these skills, do u gain the bonus? do your ships count toward the bonus?
3) If you have the skill does it affect only ur ships or all allied ships?

4) Do Nav bouy bonuses count towards the total coord manouvre bonus or is it separate? (does this mean that without the skill nav bouys do nothing?)
5) Do Nav relays count towards the total? (if not what is the max bonus for nav relays?)

6) Does ECM follow the above pattern?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: null on April 21, 2017, 06:35:33 AM
Edit: All is good made a new game and skipped tutorial, :D Awesome update btw

That only works if you haven't deleted your previous saves, apparently. :/
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Gothars on April 21, 2017, 06:44:56 AM
Fighters are absolutely unbelievable now. I expected them to be improved, but this is more than I ever dreamed of. Visually, fighter swarms are stunning! They function almost like a glue between ships and can bind a loose aggregation into a coherent entity, where now even the smallest frigate is not easy pickings any more. Tactically, they now dominate the battlefield. But not just with brute force, there is rhythm to them, and all other ships have to dance to the beat they provide. Their carrier performs as the conductor, controlling the ebb and tide of the music. Among them, the Astral is the most virtuous. Seriously,  I just played against and then as an Astral, it might be my favorite ship now.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Psycho Society on April 21, 2017, 07:10:00 AM

  I found a rather gamebreaking bug. I can't load my savegame. This was after I had quit from a three fleet pirate ambush mid-battle and was trying to reload at the main menu. It just gave the standard error message.

Happens to me too, tells me to look at starsector.log
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 07:26:13 AM
Are the Talon Interceptors really that good? They seem weak unless your stacking fighter skills for that -50% Damage Resistance.
They still die easily, but they are free (0 OP), crew losses notwithstanding, and they have HE damage from their new Swarmers (that they effectively stole from Broadswords) plus the hull-melting Vulcan.  Small ships without shields and sufficient PD will die.

Since Broadswords do not have the Swarmers anymore, they are not much use after shields are down.


I wish Odyssey had two flight decks.  From quick experimentation (in the missions' refit), it seems easy enough for a battleship to get a flight deck of its own via Converted Hangar, and (it seems) as long as it does not use bombers, be nearly as good as Odyssey as a carrier.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 07:42:46 AM
What are the rewards of improved surveying and salvaging?  Unskilled, it seems viable targets are very limited.  I suppose in the full game, a good survey could let you find an ideal planet to build your base (and eventual war machine to take over the sector).  But, in 0.8, what is the ultimate benefit?  Merely more cash only?  If so, then that is not much different than the crew XP skill from pre-0.8, which the mean reason for me to get it would be to train more crew from green to elite quickly and sell for cash (although Making Do perk was good, but not as good as zipping around and killing everything with combat skills).

If I need salvaging to capture unusual Domain/alien ships or weapons, or even merely stupidly rare items like more Hyperions and Light Needlers, then I probably want to max the skill so I can get more goodies.  But, if all I get is more unusual but useless commodities or junk like metal to sell for more cash, then I may just pass on them so I can focus more on combat-related skills instead of convenient grind-less-in-the-campaign skills.  Same thing with surveying.  If all I get is datapads to sell, then it is just easier-way-to-get-cash at the expense of maximum combat potential.

If we get more skills to fill out the remaining aptitudes, I hope the level cap gets raised.  Currently, it looks like a tight fit to get everything I want, and if I can ignore Surveying and Salvage because it only means more easy money instead of access to unique combat resources I cannot get any other way, then might I can treat surveying and salvaging from must max to nice-but-grind-more-to-get-cash and get better fighting skills instead.

One more thing.  I read the Neutrino ability in the sensor skill and thought "nice" until I saw it required volatiles, then I thought "ewww, another fuel to manage? pass".  Then I think I saw it prevents Sustained Burn.  Another no from me.  I am now addicted to Sustained Burn; it is so good, I use it almost all of the time!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 21, 2017, 07:45:08 AM
I wish Odyssey had two flight decks.
it has only a single fighter bay? that's disappointing. i know Legion is the new combat-carrier-hybrid capital ship now, but i think Odyssey deserves 2 bays, and it would still have only half as many as Legion.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 07:48:22 AM
@ Sy: Yes, only one.  I would rather give a Paragon a flight deck.  (I usually use non-bombers unless a build a dedicated carrier-based fleet.)  Although, if Odyssey got three, it might be a better Astral than the Astral, like when Odyssey had one deck and Astral only three in the old days.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 07:55:40 AM
Speaking of hull-melting, I have been at the receiving end of a Thumper after my Wolf was stripped of armor.  It did not end well for me.  Thumper looks like an alternative needler, instead of being merely junk with too many weaknesses and no redeeming qualities.  After I level up and get more ships and weapons, I may experiment with stuff more.  I am almost done with the tutorial system, and will soon go to Jangala to finish the tutorial.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Embolism on April 21, 2017, 07:59:51 AM
Two decks on Odyssey sounds reasonable.

The decision to make Advanced Optics built-in for the Astral is sound, but... what if I wanted to build a non-beam Astral? As stupid as that sounds. :-X
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 08:03:42 AM
Edit: All is good made a new game and skipped tutorial, :D Awesome update btw

That only works if you haven't deleted your previous saves, apparently. :/
Yes, it would be nice if the tutorial is optional from the start.  That is like forcing Easy difficulty on you until you have a save to unlock it.  Reminds me of the Hardcore unlock in Diablo 2, which I think Blizzard eventually abolished.

Two decks on Odyssey sounds reasonable.

The decision to make Advanced Optics built-in for the Astral is sound, but... what if I wanted to build a non-beam Astral? As stupid as that sounds. :-X
I only use beams as PD on Astral.  I favor three heavy blasters on Astral, and possibly leaving missiles empty if I do not have enough OP for blasters and PD beams.  Works out to be a slower and fatter Odyssey with more flight decks.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: TJJ on April 21, 2017, 08:12:38 AM
By the way, do randomly-generated systems ever have markets? All I've encountered are lifeless systems, except for the one with REDACTED and the occasional bounty fleet.

I came across a lifeless planet with a market. :D
Had nothing on it to sell tho, so that's probably not what you were asking for..... and should probably be reported as a bug  ::)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bx5ddqokfgzgcjc/screenshot097.png?raw=1

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfc6xdbpnmzwt3c/screenshot098.png?raw=1
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Lictuel on April 21, 2017, 08:20:06 AM
Loving the new release so far. I just had a salvage opportunity that was way to good to pass up on:
http://imgur.com/a/6Pjhq (http://imgur.com/a/6Pjhq) a fully outfitted and undamaged Legion. I guess the crew of that ship died of hunger or something. I'm not complaining, my firepower just doubled with that thing ;D
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 08:25:02 AM
Was there any rating required to get that free Legion?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Lictuel on April 21, 2017, 08:37:07 AM
Was there any rating required to get that free Legion?

Not as far as I remember, I did not really look for that honestly. I was too busy going "holy ***!" :)
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 21, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
Hotfix is up - grab it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2017/04/20/starsector-0-8a-release/). Full list of bugfixes in OP.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Megas on April 21, 2017, 08:44:51 AM
Hotfix is up - grab it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2017/04/20/starsector-0-8a-release/). Full list of bugfixes in OP.
Should I restart (not quite finished campaign tutorial quite yet), or are the changes minor enough that I can proceed with saved game without problems?
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 21, 2017, 08:47:07 AM
Should be no problems to proceed w/ current save.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: FooF on April 21, 2017, 09:05:05 AM
Gotta say, about 5 hours in so far and this is unbelievable. Just found an officer on a derelict ship that had precisely the stats I was looking for to find a recovered Scarab(!) just floating around. The exploration/salvage mechanics have been wonderful because every time I'm out trying to survey something and running dangerously low on supplies/fuel, I end up finding a debris field or ship graveyard to pillage and keep on rolling. Bravo, sir.

I have not run across one yet but I'm hoping to find an active Comm Relay out in the remote regions because I've missed a few bounties (when I was in the system!) because I had no idea they were there. As bounty fleets are spawning "out there," if you are "out there," you never receive any messages. Not a big deal but annoying nonetheless.

Finally, I think it's been mentioned but I just went to a Tri-Tach world with 5 officers available and 4/5 had a carrier-based skills on them. Confirmation bias and all but it seems there is disproportionate weight on those skills.

Skills are also feeling pretty good but I have to admit I'd gotten used to the speed of .7 and .8 feels "slow" now. I'm still trying to figure out which skills I want because so many are good. I will say using a point to "advance a tree up" never feels all that satisfying, though I know it's a long-term gain. Even a token boost to some minor stat would give me less buyer's remorse.

Overall, great job and it's quite fun!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Blips on April 21, 2017, 09:55:43 AM
Been only playing the new version for a short while and so far I'm really impressed. The game is coming along so nicely Alex  ;D

Some small bits of feedback:
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Sy on April 21, 2017, 09:57:08 AM
i just noticed Venture also has only a single fighter bay, with built-in Mining Pod wing. that seems really weak, even for a semi-civilian ship. i do like the Mining Pod(s) being built-in, but i don't think having two of those wings would be over the top at all. a single built-in Mining Pod wing actually seems worse than just getting a makeshift but customizable fighter bay through the hullmod. :/

also, i'd like if Mining Pods were a decent zero-OP alternative to Talons, at least sometimes, but from looking at their stats i doubt they can be. if they had more armor and/or hull, they might at least work as a decent distraction/screen, and i think awful firepower coupled with durability that lets them take a few asteroid hits would still fit their mining-drone theme.

if you wanna keep Mining Pods as clear trash-tier, some other zero-OP alternative would be nice (that's assuming there isn't one already, i haven't discovered all the fighters yet ^^). Talons are great as super-fast glasscannons, so having something with either a defensive/support focus or a bit of strike capability would allow for more variety on loadouts that don't have much/any OP to spare for fighters.

disclaimer: i've not really had time to test balance stuff myself yet, the above is just what i think from looking at the stats.

Hotfix is up - grab it here (http://fractalsoftworks.com/2017/04/20/starsector-0-8a-release/). Full list of bugfixes in OP.
thanks! :]
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Fishbreath on April 21, 2017, 10:22:12 AM
The mission generation seems heavily tilted toward survey and scouting. I frequently see worlds with eight or ten missions, and only one of them will be cargo.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: oorek on April 21, 2017, 10:34:37 AM
I dig this update. You're putting some 10+ man teams to shame with this pace of content.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ubik on April 21, 2017, 10:58:30 AM
I've run into a problem to finish a delivery mission...

Picked up a delivery contract in Asher in the Canaan system to deliver freight to Gilead in the same system.
When I reached Gilead all i could select was "Leave", there was no text for the planet info present.

I was shortly afterwards controlled by a Luddic fleet, retried after that, same result. I've also left the system and jumped back in, still only "Leave" available.

Right before I picked up the mission at Asher I visited Gilead and I was able to interact with normally.

Any idea what might cause the problem?

Edit: this was with RC 17, I've reloaded the save under RC 18 with the same result.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Dri on April 21, 2017, 10:59:54 AM
What are the rewards of improved surveying and salvaging?  Unskilled, it seems viable targets are very limited.  

I've found up to Class IV survey data and it was worth 55,000 credits at Jangala! You can make bank from surveying valuable worlds.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: orost on April 21, 2017, 11:02:45 AM
Class V data is worth 150,000. So are Alpha AI Cores. I've found two of each in my current playthrough so far.

I'm not sure about AI cores, but it's possible to get Class V planet data without any skills. You just get a lot fewer opportunities to roll the dice.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: noego on April 21, 2017, 11:16:18 AM
Oh ye wise and kind dev. Thanks for letting this drop on a Friday. Nothing better than to have the weekend to enjoy all the goodness. And possibly even report bugs!
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 21, 2017, 11:16:55 AM
I've run into a problem to finish a delivery mission...

Picked up a delivery contract in Asher in the Canaan system to deliver freight to Gilead in the same system.
When I reached Gilead all i could select was "Leave", there was no text for the planet info present.

I was shortly afterwards controlled by a Luddic fleet, retried after that, same result. I've also left the system and jumped back in, still only "Leave" available.

Right before I picked up the mission at Asher I visited Gilead and I was able to interact with normally.

Any idea what might cause the problem?

Edit: this was with RC 17, I've reloaded the save under RC 18 with the same result.

Could you mail me your save with the mission active? fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com.
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Ubik on April 21, 2017, 11:30:02 AM
Could you mail me your save with the mission active? fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com.

Mail sent
Title: Re: Starsector 0.8a (Released) Patch Notes
Post by: Alex on April 21, 2017, 11:33:12 AM
Sustained burn seems to trivialise sneaking into markets. It doesn't seem to increase your sensor profile by an appreciable amount and you can use it to get away from large fleets guarding the market fairly easily. They can eat my space dust as I supercruise through at burn 19 with my transponder off, (very briefly) stop to buy a ship off the black market, then continue powering away at high burn before they even get underway.

Good point - made doing something at the market stop your fleet.


I can see why you would think that, but when the options for three straight levels are "increase this skill or get strike commander", and strike commander was STILL an option when I had to select a new skill, it starts to get a little frustrating. I guess I just got a bad draw.

Yeah, that's some bad luck. I'd like to keep some randomness in the process, though, so that's a downside of it.

* you can't lay in course to a nebula from the system info screen, the button does nothing (which I suppose makes some kind of sense because there isn't a body selected, but in that case it should lay in course to a jump point, which is what it does when you lay in course to a nebula from the map)

Fixed!

* when you kill a bounty target but part of the fleet survives, it still has the yellow exclamation mark symbol even though you've killed the target and the bounty is complete.

Thanks, on my list.

While doing campaign tutorial, salvaging Domain Probes multiple times always guarantee a Gamma Core drop each time. I...don't think it's supposed to be happening?

Do you mean "scavenging", i.e. the ability? Possibly you just got lucky? I haven't been able to reproduce it - it's *possible* to get multiple cores, but it's not very likely.


For the mission log "Acquire jump-point data at Derinkuyu", the summary says "contact $dataContactName"... also in the very first transmission from the Ancyra commander, at one point he/she says something like "we're cut off from Sector like the Sector is cut off from the Domain", should probably be "we're cut off from the Sector".

Fixed, thank you.


Also, is there anything new to do to carriers or hullmods to get them into the game?

There's a new column for the number of fighter bays in ship_data.csv. Nothing else comes to mind immediately.


The supposedly abandoned station in Asharu seems to not be so abandoned, judging from it's description.

Fixed!

Question: is there any way to tell how many times a field has been salvaged? I ran into an issue where it was a field I had already salvaged, so I took hefty losses.

There's some text about how likely you're to find anything when you run "scavenge". For subsequent attempts, it should indicate there's not a lot to find. Also, the visual density of the field goes down significantly.

So far I'm loving .8! Marvelously done Alex!

Thank you!

Can you salvage /REDACTED/ ships guarding derelicts?

Can't, no. Not at this point, anyway :)

Quote
Flagship and ships with an officer in command nearly guaranteed to be recoverable if lost
Why nearly? And how is it determined?

It's actually 100%. The "nearly" is disinformation to keep a bit of a sense of suspense going. Don't tell anyone.

I would love to be able to tell my second-in-command to fight automated defenses. Beyond the first few times they really are just a stomp, and getting through that screen to the tasty tasty loot faster would be nice.

Hmm. Let me think about this - I think straight autoresolve would not be a great idea, but I do understand what you mean.

I think I figured out the problem. One of the ships (the cruiser) never entered the battle.

EDIT: Decided to try and retreat to see what happens... and the moment I unpause after ordering a full retreat, the rest of the enemies charge in. Weird.

Ahh, thank you, that's exactly it - fixed.


I found a rather gamebreaking bug. I can't load my savegame. This was after I had quit from a three fleet pirate ambush mid-battle and was trying to reload at the main menu. It just gave the standard error message.

Fixed in the hotfix, sorry! Save should load fine now.


Fought a Mudskipper MK2 with a hellbore. Killed it, got the Hellbore. Salvaged the wreckage, got ANOTHER hellbore. What.

Yeah, it's possible. They were carrying a backup. In case the first one broke.

i think i found a bug: with my first 4 skill points in the tutorial, i initially put 2 into Technology aptitude and 2 into Sensors, but then reset the points and went for something else rather than confirming the selection. however, it seems the 25% sensor-profile reduction from Sensors rank 2 was still permanently applied to my fleet, despite not having committed any points to that skill now. at least that's what the sensor-profile modifiers in the tooltip and the total number show, i can't say whether the actual numbers used in calculating detection ranges are affected as well.

Yep, this is fixed in the hotfix. It would indeed refund the points but keep the bonuses.


Are the Talon Interceptors really that good? They seem weak unless your stacking fighter skills for that -50% Damage Resistance.

It's not actually -50%, since reductions are multiplicative. It's .75 * .75 = ~.56, so 44%. Which is pretty close, but still.



Edit: I wanted to explore hyperspace right away but i need to do the tutorial right? Forced tutorials make me rage even though this one is really good :(

It's only required one time. Btw: in the hotfix, it also makes it so that it'll pick up that you started a game w/ the tutorial on and let you skip it next time around without you having to restart the game.

Edit: All is good made a new game and skipped tutorial, :D Awesome update btw

:) Thank you!


1) Can other fleets have these skills (eg. Hegemony Strike fleet)

Yes; which skills (if any) enemy commanders are likely to have is faction-dependent.

2) If you join a battle between Heg and pirates that has these skills, do u gain the bonus? do your ships count toward the bonus?

Yes and yes.

3) If you have the skill does it affect only ur ships or all allied ships?

Both yours and allied.

4) Do Nav bouy bonuses count towards the total coord manouvre bonus or is it separate? (does this mean that without the skill nav bouys do nothing?)
5) Do Nav relays count towards the total? (if not what is the max bonus for nav relays?)

A nav buoy adds +5%, up to the maximum. So w/o skill you benefit from up to 2 nav buoys. You can also benefit from the "Nav Relay" hullmod without having the skill.

6) Does ECM follow the above pattern?

Yes.



Fighters are absolutely unbelievable now. I expected them to be improved, but this is more than I ever dreamed of. Visually, fighter swarms are stunning! They function almost like a glue between ships and can bind a loose aggregation into a coherent entity, where now even the smallest frigate is not easy pickings any more. Tactically, they now dominate the battlefield. But not just with brute force, there is rhythm to them, and all other ships have to dance to the beat they provide. Their carrier performs as the conductor, controlling the ebb and tide of the music. Among them, the Astral is the most virtuous. Seriously,  I just played against and then as an Astral, it might be my favorite ship now.

... and they're probably a bit OP, but I'll let that slide for the moment :) Glad you're enjoying how they play!


What are the rewards of improved surveying and salvaging?  Unskilled, it seems viable targets are very limited.  I suppose in the full game, a good survey could let you find an ideal planet to build your base (and eventual war machine to take over the sector).  But, in 0.8, what is the ultimate benefit?  Merely more cash only?  If so, then that is not much different than the crew XP skill from pre-0.8, which the mean reason for me to get it would be to train more crew from green to elite quickly and sell for cash (although Making Do perk was good, but not as good as zipping around and killing everything with combat skills).

If I need salvaging to capture unusual Domain/alien ships or weapons, or even merely stupidly rare items like more Hyperions and Light Needlers, then I probably want to max the skill so I can get more goodies.  But, if all I get is more unusual but useless commodities or junk like metal to sell for more cash, then I may just pass on them so I can focus more on combat-related skills instead of convenient grind-less-in-the-campaign skills.  Same thing with surveying.  If all I get is datapads to sell, then it is just easier-way-to-get-cash at the expense of maximum combat potential.

Yeah, at the moment it's more of a "more cash and stuff" situation. Ultimately, they'll provide planets and items that you wouldn't have access to otherwise (or at least not in quantity), but for now it's not unreasonable to forgo them if you want to maximize your other skills. I'd say you'd be missing on a lot of the fun from the new update if you do, though.


The decision to make Advanced Optics built-in for the Astral is sound, but... what if I wanted to build a non-beam Astral? As stupid as that sounds. :-X

Then you can do that! As stupid as that sounds :)


I came across a lifeless planet with a market. :D

Should be fixed in hotfix!


Gotta say, about 5 hours in so far and this is unbelievable. Just found an officer on a derelict ship that had precisely the stats I was looking for to find a recovered Scarab(!) just floating around. The exploration/salvage mechanics have been wonderful because every time I'm out trying to survey something and running dangerously low on supplies/fuel, I end up finding a debris field or ship graveyard to pillage and keep on rolling. Bravo, sir.

Thank you!

I have not run across one yet but I'm hoping to find an active Comm Relay out in the remote regions because I've missed a few bounties (when I was in the system!) because I had no idea they were there. As bounty fleets are spawning "out there," if you are "out there," you never receive any messages. Not a big deal but annoying nonetheless.

They're all inactive - what you're describing does sound annoying, but there's also a neat feel to "coming back to civilization". Eventually it might be nice to be able to do more with all these relays etc.

Finally, I think it's been mentioned but I just went to a Tri-Tach world with 5 officers available and 4/5 had a carrier-based skills on them. Confirmation bias and all but it seems there is disproportionate weight on those skills.

Yeah, definitely confirmation bias. I think? 99% sure.

Skills are also feeling pretty good but I have to admit I'd gotten used to the speed of .7 and .8 feels "slow" now. I'm still trying to figure out which skills I want because so many are good. I will say using a point to "advance a tree up" never feels all that satisfying, though I know it's a long-term gain. Even a token boost to some minor stat would give me less buyer's remorse.

This is a tough one for me. Not having any bonus at all is a bit harsh, but it communicates the purpose much more clearly. If there was a tiny token bonus, I'm guessing there would be a number of threads to the tune of "aptitude X effect is underpowered".

Personally, I just wait until there's 2 points to spend, so I feel like I get something every time I spend points, whether it's for each point or not.


Been only playing the new version for a short while and so far I'm really impressed. The game is coming along so nicely Alex  ;D

Thank you!


  • When leaving stations or planets, etc, it would be nice if our fleet wasn't given an initial velocity. During the tutorial, I sneaked into the pirate mining station successfully but when I left, my fleet was pushed directly at the nearby pirates and I was detected.

The fleet actually just retains its previous velocity. I just (not in the hotfix) made it so that it'll stop if you open the trade or refit screens while at market.

  • Detection ranges / sensor ranges: I understand what the numbers mean, but I find the system unreliable. With the pirate mining base example, I had no idea how close I could be from the pirate fleet before being detected. I'm guessing this is intentional to make the system feel organic / exciting / etc.

Hmm - do you see the three arcs around the enemy fleet? Or is it with those that it's still feeling unreliable?

I dig this update. You're putting some 10+ man teams to shame with this pace of content.

It has been a bit over a year, but thank you anyway :)


Could you mail me your save with the mission active? fractalsoftworks [at] gmail [dot] com.